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End of Windows for Pro production - FLS Limit? Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 3 weeks ago
  #61
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
In practice and testing, of course. But you were talking about the theoretical case when *all* plugin manufacturers dynamically linked the runtime. That's what I was responding to. Or, at least, that's how I read what you were saying.

Pete
I'm talking about practise, yes. Of course! That is what counts.

Alistair
Old 2 weeks ago
  #62
Hi All

Good news! In the latest Windows Insider build, flighting today, we’ve increased the FLS slot limit to over 4000, from the 128 it is today. Although we really would prefer that plugin developers dynamically link the VC++ runtime (for bug fixes, security fixes, and just not loading duplicate code in memory), we recognize this was a blocking issue for you all, and so wanted to address it.

As part of this, we rewrote the code that handled the allocation to make it much easier to increase the limit in the future, when/if that is needed. All of this is implemented in the OS and is transparent to applications.

If all goes well and no issues are discovered during flighting, this will be in the next release of Windows 10 (19H1).
Announcing Windows 10 Insider Preview Build 18312 | Windows Experience Blog

If you test the FLS allocation on this insider build, please do report back your findings.

Pete
Old 2 weeks ago
  #63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
Hi All

Good news! In the latest Windows Insider build, flighting today, we’ve increased the FLS slot limit to over 4000, from the 128 it is today. Although we really would prefer that plugin developers dynamically link the VC++ runtime (for bug fixes, security fixes, and just not loading duplicate code in memory), we recognize this was a blocking issue for you all, and so wanted to address it.

As part of this, we rewrote the code that handled the allocation to make it much easier to increase the limit in the future, when/if that is needed. All of this is implemented in the OS and is transparent to applications.

If all goes well and no issues are discovered during flighting, this will be in the next release of Windows 10 (19H1).
Announcing Windows 10 Insider Preview Build 18312 | Windows Experience Blog

If you test the FLS allocation on this insider build, please do report back your findings.

Pete
Love you guys.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #64
Gear Maniac
 
rectape's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
Hi All

Good news! In the latest Windows Insider build, flighting today, we’ve increased the FLS slot limit to over 4000, from the 128 it is today. Although we really would prefer that plugin developers dynamically link the VC++ runtime (for bug fixes, security fixes, and just not loading duplicate code in memory), we recognize this was a blocking issue for you all, and so wanted to address it.

As part of this, we rewrote the code that handled the allocation to make it much easier to increase the limit in the future, when/if that is needed. All of this is implemented in the OS and is transparent to applications.

If all goes well and no issues are discovered during flighting, this will be in the next release of Windows 10 (19H1).
Announcing Windows 10 Insider Preview Build 18312 | Windows Experience Blog

If you test the FLS allocation on this insider build, please do report back your findings.

Pete
That’s a fantastic news Pete!
This and the very bad midi timings were my motivations to go hackintosh.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #65
Gear Addict
 
Home Studio 87's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
Hi All

Good news! In the latest Windows Insider build, flighting today, we’ve increased the FLS slot limit to over 4000, from the 128 it is today. Although we really would prefer that plugin developers dynamically link the VC++ runtime (for bug fixes, security fixes, and just not loading duplicate code in memory), we recognize this was a blocking issue for you all, and so wanted to address it.

As part of this, we rewrote the code that handled the allocation to make it much easier to increase the limit in the future, when/if that is needed. All of this is implemented in the OS and is transparent to applications.

If all goes well and no issues are discovered during flighting, this will be in the next release of Windows 10 (19H1).
Announcing Windows 10 Insider Preview Build 18312 | Windows Experience Blog

If you test the FLS allocation on this insider build, please do report back your findings.

Pete
Finaly….. Thank you Microsoft… to go the the right way..
Old 1 week ago
  #66
Lives for gear
 
TAFKAT's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
Hi All

Good news! In the latest Windows Insider build, flighting today, we’ve increased the FLS slot limit to over 4000, from the 128 it is today. Although we really would prefer that plugin developers dynamically link the VC++ runtime (for bug fixes, security fixes, and just not loading duplicate code in memory), we recognize this was a blocking issue for you all, and so wanted to address it.
Well done Pete , great to see you follow this through to completion.

I can only imagine the curves that needed to be navigated to get this across the line.

That's enough headroom to render the actual number irrelevant , easier to say issue is resolved , IMO

Lets see what the early adopters report back.

Paging Dedric ..

Old 1 week ago
  #67
Any word if this will be included on Win 7?
Old 1 week ago
  #68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Skeens View Post
Any word if this will be included on Win 7?
Windows 10 19H1 is the target release. We're not back-porting to any other versions.

Pete
Old 1 week ago
  #69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
Windows 10 19H1 is the target release. We're not back-porting to any other versions.

Pete
Thanks, good to know.
Old 1 week ago
  #70
In my attempt to find most of the billions of places this has been discussed, I stumbled across a post that had a number of plugin FLS slot usage counts posted.

Steinberg Padshop - 1
Spectrasonics trilian - 1
Waves (Waveshell) 2
Waves Codex - 2
UAD -2
Roland TR 808-2
DBX160 - 2
Slate VMR - 2
FXpansion BFD3 - 2
Korg ARP Odyssey - 3
Steinberg Dark Planet - 3
BX20 - 4
ATR102 - 4
Kontakt -4
Maschine-4
SSL E Legacy - 4
API 2500 - 4
EMT 140/250 - 4
Fairchild 670 MKII - 4
LA-2A Grey - 4
Arturia ARP 2600 v3 - 6
Arturia Buchla - 6
Arturia DX7 - 6
Synclavier - 7
CMI - 8
Analogue Lab3 45

Source: https://*************/threads/window...in-daws.42592/

LOL. On a site named "gearslutz" that URL above got nuked as not passing the nanny filter. The domain is a-u-d-i-o-s-e-x dot pro

Pete
Old 1 week ago
  #71
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
Hi All

Good news! In the latest Windows Insider build, flighting today, we’ve increased the FLS slot limit to over 4000, from the 128 it is today. Although we really would prefer that plugin developers dynamically link the VC++ runtime (for bug fixes, security fixes, and just not loading duplicate code in memory), we recognize this was a blocking issue for you all, and so wanted to address it.

Pete
Awesome! Thank you Pete and the Microsoft dev team.
Old 1 week ago
  #72
Lives for gear
 
JCBigler's Avatar
Any idea on when this will get pushed to regular users? Or how we can can tell what version our Win 10 system is?
Old 1 week ago
  #73
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler View Post
Any idea on when this will get pushed to regular users? Or how we can can tell what version our Win 10 system is?
"Windows 19H1" means "Windows First Half of 2019"
Old 1 week ago
  #74
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler View Post
Any idea on when this will get pushed to regular users? Or how we can can tell what version our Win 10 system is?
19H1 = "First half of calendar year 2019". That's the planned release window. In the past, this has landed in March/April, but it depends on a number of factors.

You can tell your OS version by going to

Start -> Settings -> System -> About
(or just type "About" into the search box on your task bar, if you have it enabled)

The main version is in the "Version" field (which is year/month of the planned release date of that version of the OS).

The OS build is an additional detail, typically only needed by tech support to see if you have specific updates. that's also the number reported if you type "ver" at the command line.

Pete
Old 1 week ago
  #75
Lives for gear
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
Hi All

Good news! In the latest Windows Insider build, flighting today, we’ve increased the FLS slot limit to over 4000, from the 128 it is today. Although we really would prefer that plugin developers dynamically link the VC++ runtime (for bug fixes, security fixes, and just not loading duplicate code in memory), we recognize this was a blocking issue for you all, and so wanted to address it.

As part of this, we rewrote the code that handled the allocation to make it much easier to increase the limit in the future, when/if that is needed. All of this is implemented in the OS and is transparent to applications.

If all goes well and no issues are discovered during flighting, this will be in the next release of Windows 10 (19H1).
Announcing Windows 10 Insider Preview Build 18312 | Windows Experience Blog

If you test the FLS allocation on this insider build, please do report back your findings.

Pete

Next step: increasing the number of threads which can be MMCSS priority, to how it was prior to W10
Old 1 week ago
  #76
Lives for gear
 
bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
Hi All

Good news! In the latest Windows Insider build, flighting today, we’ve increased the FLS slot limit to over 4000, from the 128 it is today. Although we really would prefer that plugin developers dynamically link the VC++ runtime (for bug fixes, security fixes, and just not loading duplicate code in memory), we recognize this was a blocking issue for you all, and so wanted to address it.

As part of this, we rewrote the code that handled the allocation to make it much easier to increase the limit in the future, when/if that is needed. All of this is implemented in the OS and is transparent to applications.

If all goes well and no issues are discovered during flighting, this will be in the next release of Windows 10 (19H1).
Announcing Windows 10 Insider Preview Build 18312 | Windows Experience Blog

If you test the FLS allocation on this insider build, please do report back your findings.

Pete
This is incredible news... thanks MS
Old 1 week ago
  #77
Lives for gear
 
bgood's Avatar
I dunno about y’all but Studio One in particular seems almost hobbled with respect to number of plugins you can insert... hoping this OS update smacks that particular booty
Old 1 week ago
  #78
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Next step: increasing the number of threads which can be MMCSS priority, to how it was prior to W10
I haven't had any luck there. The team that did the work REALLY wants developers to use the thread pool instead of just allocating new ones themselves.

Unlike the FLS and DLL loading stuff (which has minor impacts, and tends to be constrained to the process), MMCSS threads have real impact on other components of the system as it changes kernel behavior and resources.

I did manage to get a workaround which I shared with Steinberg and others. It's a reg key that sets a higher max value. Tech support for DAW companies like Steinberg can tell you what the key is and what it should be set to (or provide something that will set it). Unfortunately, it does tend to get nuked with updates, and is not an officially supported solution.

Due to system-wide implications of just setting it to max, and the fact that the reg key is not supported (and could go away) I've been asked by the teams not to publish it on forums or sites, and to just provide it to DAW companies that are impacted. I may revisit this.

If you're running into a MMCSS limit with Cubase, please do contact them directly.

If you're running into it with a different DAW, and they haven't provided this info to you, please LMK so I can make sure they're in the fold.

Pete
Old 1 week ago
  #79
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood View Post
I dunno about y’all but Studio One in particular seems almost hobbled with respect to number of plugins you can insert... hoping this OS update smacks that particular booty
Presonus made updates a year or so back to reduce the number of FLS slots the DAW itself uses. If you're running an older version, it will use more slots.

Studio One Pro 4.1.1 on my machine with a blank project shows 105 slots free

Bitwig Studio 2.4.3 with a blank project shows 116 free

I haven't yet updated my DAW PC to the fast ring build. I may do that this weekend and report back.

Pete
Old 1 week ago
  #80
Lives for gear
 
bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
Presonus made updates a year or so back to reduce the number of FLS slots the DAW itself uses. If you're running an older version, it will use more slots.

Studio One Pro 4.1.1 on my machine with a blank project shows 105 slots free

Bitwig Studio 2.4.3 with a blank project shows 116 free

I haven't yet updated my DAW PC to the fast ring build. I may do that this weekend and report back.

Pete
Pete... how interesting... I thought I had more slots open in older versions, but, then just assumed my perception was incorrect
Old 1 week ago
  #81
Updated my DAW / main PC to 18312.

The FLS Checker plugin doesn't handle any number over 128. It always shows 128 now, even with Ozone 7 loaded (which takes 10 slots (or maybe it was 20?) ). Prior to this, in Bitwig studio, I had like 115 slots before Ozone.



Pete
Old 1 week ago
  #82
And just to close the loop here, I wrote a small C++ app to spit out how many FLS slots. It's running under the debugger here.



Code:



Pete

Edit: Changed to shorter version of code, so I don't have a bazillion folks calling me out on it :P
Old 1 week ago
  #83
Gear Maniac
 
rectape's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
Updated my DAW / main PC to 18312.

The FLS Checker plugin doesn't handle any number over 128. It always shows 128 now, even with Ozone 7 loaded (which takes 10 slots (or maybe it was 20?) ). Prior to this, in Bitwig studio, I had like 115 slots before Ozone.



Pete
Hi Pete,

Do you think it will also impact the CPU usage spread between cores or is it only on the DAW side of things?

Under Studio One 4.1 I have one core maxed out and a lot of room on the others on a lot of projects.
Is there a way to upgrade windows now to this build?
Old 1 week ago
  #84
Lives for gear
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
FLS has nothing to do with CPU usage, AFAIK. LS means "local storage", it's a memory thing, not a CPU thing.

Sounds to me like your realtime audio thread has been capped. Do you have a lot of heavy plugins on your master track?
Old 1 week ago
  #85
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
And just to close the loop here, I wrote a small C++ app to spit out how many FLS slots. It's running under the debugger here.



Code:



Pete

Edit: Changed to shorter version of code, so I don't have a bazillion folks calling me out on it :P
I would have done a “do while” but that’s sweet thanks a lot! I may do some testing too if I have time.
Old 1 week ago
  #86
Gear Maniac
 
rectape's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
FLS has nothing to do with CPU usage, AFAIK. LS means "local storage", it's a memory thing, not a CPU thing.

Sounds to me like your realtime audio thread has been capped. Do you have a lot of heavy plugins on your master track?
Ok thanks I tought so.
Yes I have some big plugins even tho I use hardware verbs and some other outboards.
I will upgrade my config.
Old 1 week ago
  #87
Quote:
Originally Posted by rectape View Post
Hi Pete,

Do you think it will also impact the CPU usage spread between cores or is it only on the DAW side of things?

Under Studio One 4.1 I have one core maxed out and a lot of room on the others on a lot of projects.
Is there a way to upgrade windows now to this build?
This change won't impact that. Most DAWs have other ways of spreading out the load, though. In some, just moving effects to busses can do that.

Yes, you can upgrade to this build now by joining the Windows Insiders and picking the "Fast Lane". But that typically means at least one full upgrade per week, with an unstable OS. I'm running it on my main PC here to test, but even I drop out of the fast lane after a while because the number of installs gets annoying.

We only recommend you use this on a non-critical PC. Insider previews, especially fast-lane ones, are unstable builds of the OS, and will have broken features.

Pete
Old 1 week ago
  #88
Quote:
Originally Posted by soupiraille View Post
I would have done a “do while” but that’s sweet thanks a lot! I may do some testing too if I have time.
From my Twitter feed:



Pete
Old 1 week ago
  #89
Gear Maniac
 
rectape's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
This change won't impact that. Most DAWs have other ways of spreading out the load, though. In some, just moving effects to busses can do that.

Yes, you can upgrade to this build now by joining the Windows Insiders and picking the "Fast Lane". But that typically means at least one full upgrade per week, with an unstable OS. I'm running it on my main PC here to test, but even I drop out of the fast lane after a while because the number of installs gets annoying.

We only recommend you use this on a non-critical PC. Insider previews, especially fast-lane ones, are unstable builds of the OS, and will have broken features.

Pete
Ok thanks so I will wait
Old 1 week ago
  #90
Lives for gear
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
Pete... what on earth happened to other audio-related features that were mentioned some years ago in that presentation that you held... like aggregate audio devices, etc.? I also see that the work on W32 wrapper for UWP MIDI has stopped altogether (and I remember somebody even reported a bug or two within it that weren't fixed, looks like those reports are not visible to the public anymore in the repo (apparently port enumeration is not useful since it doesn't return device names and API crashes on sysex).

EDIT: Bugs and suggestions are reported on wpdev.uservoice... to deaf ears:

Fix the WinRT MIDI APIs – Welcome to the Windows developer feedback site!
MIDI Port enumeration returning undescriptive port names – Welcome to the Windows developer feedback site!
Virtual MIDI ports – Welcome to the Windows developer feedback site!
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