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Roland Studio Capture 1610 latency issues Audio Interfaces
Old 6 days ago
  #1
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Roland Studio Capture 1610 latency issues

Hi

I just got this audio interface today and I am trying to track guitars but I keep getting sound cutting out and blips/glitch noises. My m-audio fast track ultra 8r can easily track and playback well at a buffer of 64 but the Roland struggles at 512 and the latency delay is so bad I can’t record the guitar properly. I’m using pro tools 10. I thought the Roland would be a big improvement on the fast track but so far no good
Old 6 days ago
  #2
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Sorry to hear that. Is this on Mac or PC? If PC what version of Windows?
Old 6 days ago
  #3
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Hi, it's a pc running windows 7 64 bit - Intel core i5 4690 CPU & 16gb RAM
Old 6 days ago
  #4
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I noticed the M-Audio was FireWire and the Roland is USB. Your machines USB chipsets could be problematic for audio and/or be sharing interrupts. I'd start with downloading and running DPC Latency Checker and see what it tells you.

DPC Latency Checker
Old 6 days ago
  #5
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Thread Starter
Cheers mate, the M-Audio is also USB but i'm wondering if that driver is somehow interfering with this roland one?

Weird
Old 6 days ago
  #6
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the latency checker says - This machine should be able to handle real-time streaming of audio and/or video data without drop-outs. maxed at 359
Old 6 days ago
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eggster79 View Post
Cheers mate, the M-Audio is also USB but i'm wondering if that driver is somehow interfering with this roland one?

Weird
Not unless they are both hooked up at the same time but just being in the machine is harmless when not in use. Maybe the Roland drivers are just not that good.
Old 6 days ago
  #8
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I fear this may well be the case
Old 6 days ago
  #9
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Hi,
I have Roland Quad-Capture, I think the smaller version of yours,
and I have no problems with lower buffers.
I did not try how low I could go but I used something around 96 samples.
I have no idea what that sais about ms, though.
I use direct monitoring mostly, and the track I record on has the volume fader at zero, monitoring on (Reaper) and a pre fader send to a reverb or delay. That way I hear the direct sound combined with the fx send which can have a bit of delay.

edit; Just realised you probably use guitar soft amps so you need to hear the sound of that when recording.
Old 6 days ago
  #10
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Thread Starter
Yeah i tried using the direct monitoring which was great for zero latency recording but i was still getting glitches and noise issues at buffer sizes of 512 & 1024 samples. I'm not sure if its a fault with you unit or user error but i'm going to send the unit back and stick with my M-Audio Fast Track for now. It's a massive shame as everything else was good and the extra inputs would've come in handy for drums/live recording. If anyone knows of another unit that has more than 8 simultaneous inputs then please let me know

Old 5 days ago
  #11
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It's definitely not normal to have as bad latency.
Personally I don't have some extensive experience with Roland interfaces as I have with other brands, except of some lurking around installed systems and some short time with then, but for example Octa-capture and Quad-capture were rather solid performers among USB interfaces.. AFAIK their USB streaming driver was the same as for larger Studio-Capture. Latency wasn't as short as RME for example, but definitely better than for example 1st generation of Scarletts or so.
IIRC from their other interfaces, there is a checkbox, which says Reduce CPU load or so.. it enable double buffering for playback, which can help, when running on short buffers.
Also at some boards not all USB ports are equal, because some are at Intel USB controller, some might be at some additional chip (like ASMEDIA or NEC) and it's worth of moving devices just for the test.

Have you tried to disconnect all other USB devices (other interfaces, unnecessary devices) just for the test? Connect it to another USB port, you can check USB topology at Windows device manager, in most cases its advisable to each USB audio interface at its own root hub to avoid sharing of available hub bandwidth.

Also observed max. DPC routine exec. time - 359us or interrupt to process latency isn't anything really extra. Usually on normal PCs (without any antiviruses, or other similar crap), it's rather under 150-180us.. Measured say over 10minutes, when computer is completely idle (eg. there's no running audio playback or so).
Btw. do you have High Performance Power plan active in Windows?

Michal
Old 5 days ago
  #12
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Thread Starter
Hi Michal

I have my windows 7 fully optimised for recording so its in high performance mode. I’ve so far used the USB port that the m-audio was using and one on the front. The glitches and sound drop outs get worse when the Roland control panel is open so it may be a conflict with the graphics card? Now idea how to fix that though.
Old 5 days ago
  #13
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More glitches when control panel is open doesn't imply any "conflict" with graphics card. If there will be any problem with graphics card, you should clearly see it in LatencyMon. In that case its driver is spending significant time in DPC queue. You can easily find is, when you run analysis in LatencyMon for some time, then switch to driver tab there and sort the listing by execution time column. Then if there will be topping scores from something like NVIDIA kernel mode driver (or AMD) or DirectX Graphics kernel, it's graphics card, which needs some focus.
This is also the general way, how to find whether there are any other possibly misbehaving drivers in the system.

Anyway under normal circumstances at healthy system, IMO you should be able to run the interface at say 128 or 256s buffers without any specific tuning.
Try to do, what I've mentioned before, no other USB interfaces or unnecessary device in system and look to Device manager (where you can show Devices by connection in tree like mode) to verify there's no other USB device at the same USB root hub.

Finally, you can also try to reach Roland support, maybe they could have some more targeted advice for you.

Michal
Old 5 days ago
  #14
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Thread Starter
Hi Michal

I ran latencymod whilst using the studio capture at 128 buffer size (this is the size I would ideally like to record with) and have attached the results in the pics below. If you could help me translate them or spot anything that is obviously wrong or needs attention that would be great.
Attached Thumbnails
Roland Studio Capture 1610 latency issues-046118f6-10ac-49c2-9cb6-c1e44e22da02.jpg   Roland Studio Capture 1610 latency issues-ee8d2dd6-f0a8-4d31-8076-7baada905532.jpg   Roland Studio Capture 1610 latency issues-68b8ea53-3518-461c-a2ee-41f98344c50b.jpg   Roland Studio Capture 1610 latency issues-251f62b7-8f78-43a1-8e47-df96e98a97d3.jpg  
Old 5 days ago
  #15
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Thread Starter
...and this
Attached Thumbnails
Roland Studio Capture 1610 latency issues-70b0b10f-ced2-448c-bf06-3e4766a89942.jpg  
Old 4 days ago
  #16
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Hi,

the main point of those DPC latency measurements is to determine characteristics of an environment for running of audio driver. Basically more time other drivers spend in DPC queue, the less time remains for time sensitive calls of audio driver (and handling of associated DPCs from USB in this case), when short buffers are being used and the system is then more susceptible to dropouts.
As I wrote before, the common testing procedure with LatencyMon is to close all programs, don't run any playback or recording, leave computer idle and make few minutes of measurements.. This should tell you, whether is "clean table" for running latency sensitive software.
There's not necessary and better to avoid any audio playback or streaming during that measurement, LatencyMon has already its own "probe" driver, which is being used for generating workload and obtaining of figures.
When you finish that measurement, hit ctrl+c, paste the text report to notepad and save it as text file. You can also take copy of main screenshot by hitting ctrl+s and paste it to windows Paint for example, where it's possible to save it as png file. Finally, it's possible to attach both those files to your reply post here at forum.
We can then tell, you whether this looks problematic or not.

Just for the reference, screenshot of my office i5 PC with Windows 10, where I measured 2min of "doing nothing" using LatencyMon is attached.

Michal
Attached Thumbnails
Roland Studio Capture 1610 latency issues-latency_mon_sample.jpg  
Old 4 days ago
  #17
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Thread Starter
What a numpty I am

Here's the LatencyMon info for when my system is "doing nothing"
Attached Thumbnails
Roland Studio Capture 1610 latency issues-latencymon.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: txt LatencyMon.txt (8.4 KB, 6 views)
Old 4 days ago
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eggster79 View Post
Here's the LatencyMon info for when my system is "doing nothing"
Hi Eggster,

that looks good to me. I don't think, that DPC latency of other drivers will be the culprit.
Pagefault count in Windows 7 was rather common thing and it's usually nothing critical in terms of audio performance.

With regards to mentioned USB ports. Maybe simpler thing for analysis of your connections is free tool called USB Tree View.. (no installation is needed, just unpack and execute it).
USB Device Tree Viewer

There you can see exactly, where each device is plugged in and whether there's some sharing of root hubs at motherboard.
Just as an example, I've attached screenshot of my home computer, you can see selected USB DAC, as a sole peripheral at own root hub. So bandwidth isn't shared among multiple peripherals. While it's not really common cause of dropouts, I've seen one or two interfaces, where bandwidth allocation at bus was problematic.

With regards to USB 3.0 (XHCI) and Windows 7. I would also try to update USB chipset drivers from latest package by Intel (which would be more recent than the one by ASUS).

Download Intel(R) USB 3.0 eXtensible Host Controller Driver for Intel(R) 8/9/100 Series and Intel(R) C220/C610 Chipset Family
This should install fine at your board.

Finally, I've seen at one of your previous pictures, that you're running Pro Tools.
It's fine of course, except it's one of pickiest DAWs at Windows platform for audio and MIDI drivers compatibility IME. It's possible that Roland ASIO driver doesn't play so well with PT or its particular version.
M-Audio is fine, because they were under AVID for some time and seemingly in close contact with PT developers, thus even their low end interfaces runs well with PT.

To isolate that possible issue.. I'd recommend to try performance of Roland with Reaper, which is compatibility king IME, if you don't have any other DAW. You can get its installer for free trial. It's small and you can even run it portable without real install. I'd guess, that some small session with live input through DAW and say 128s ASIO buffer should quickly tell you, whether it's PT related or not.

Good luck!

Michal
Attached Thumbnails
Roland Studio Capture 1610 latency issues-usb_tree_view_sample.png  
Old 4 days ago
  #19
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Thread Starter
Hi Michal,

Thanks for your help with this it is greatly appreciated! I have attached my USB Tree View and it seems all of my USB ports are using the same 3.0 hub??? The Studio Capture needs to be USB 2.0 so that may be the issue or the fact that other things are using the same hub (I don't normally have the m-audio on at the same time as the Roland SC).

I downloaded the latest Intel drivers you suggested earlier on just in case.

How do I change what HUB these USB inputs I have on my PC use?

I think THIS will be the last throw of the dice and then I will have to accept that Pro Tools isn't enjoying the Roland as much as the M-Audio
Attached Thumbnails
Roland Studio Capture 1610 latency issues-usbtreeview.jpg  
Old 4 days ago
  #20
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Hi,

USB devices arrangement can be changed only by its physical re-connection to different port. Some root hubs are connected directly to motherboard at its backside panel, some are connected via additional headers at the case. I've briefly checked manual from your motherboard and if you only some single USB 3.0 header at the front of your case, then IMO only option to change the arrangement is to try one of USB 2.0 ports at the backplate. Those are two black colored plugs located under your NIC connector.
I won't really bet, this would have big impact and will be causing dropouts even with relatively large buffers, but as I've said before - some USB drivers were sensitive to that and it's relatively easy test. Similarly you can also try to disconnect other devices from the bus, I see from the tree listing, there's M-Audio interface and iPhone. Disconnect those, leave there just keyboard, mouse, iLok and Roland to see, whether anything changes.

As for PT, do you have any other ASIO capable application installed? If you don't want to install Reaper for any reason you might have maybe some standalone version of VI? (like for example Kontakt, IK Amplitube, Waves GTR... has their own standalone versions). There you can also test Roland ASIO driver, set the buffer length and try whether it will be dropping or not.
PT itself stores configuration data about each ASIO interface in folder %AppData%\Avid\Pro Tools (you can just copy and paste this whole string in to explorer address bar to open it). There you'll find the .pio file named after Roland's ASIO driver. If Pro Tools application is closed, then you can safely delete this file, because at next launch the interface driver will be queried and scanned again and fresh preference file for it will be created. Maybe worth of shot, if you find, the other application is working well.

I know, it seems to be tedious amount of steps, but before fixing of any technical issue, it's necessary to isolate it. Which is unfortunately possible to do just by sequential elimination of all factors, which can play any role there. And quite frankly, it can be lot of related things at DAW system, from computer and OS setup, through device drivers to application/plugins.

Michal
Old 3 days ago
  #21
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Thread Starter
Both audio interfaces are plugged into the black USB ports at the back but still show up under the intel 3.0 hub. All the ports on my pc show up under that hub which is strange. That said, when I use the studio capture I remove everything apart from the ilok and still get audio issues. I’ll try using it with a stand alone plugin and see if it still cuts out. It seems that when I use it at a buffer of lower than 512 and open the control panel or a plugin control panel it starts glitching and when I close the control panels the glitching continues so I have to restart PT. My fast track 8r is nowhere near as sensitive. The thing is I can’t really find any other audio interface that has the same amount of inputs that can be used simultaneously so I really don’t know whether to send it back or keep it, use it for drums in direct mode and maybe mixing with a higher buffer size. Then keep and use the m-audio one for its low latency abilities for soft synths/guitars. I guess every audio interface driver is different and PT is as you say very picky. I’m just wary of keeping a £600 audio interface that doesn’t do exactly what I want. Maybe I’m being overly fussy Anyway thanks for your help these last few days of testing Michal it’s been much appreciated.
Old 3 days ago
  #22
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All sorted now, apparently the studio capture has an issue with PT10 & windows. PT11 runs fine with it.
Old 3 days ago
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eggster79 View Post
All sorted now, apparently the studio capture has an issue with PT10 & windows. PT11 runs fine with it.
Hi Eggster,

glad to hear, you've cracked the nut!
It was long time ago, when I worked with PT 10 and it was only at OS X, where I had TDM hardware back then. At Windows I worked only with PT from version 11 onwards.
Good luck with your Studio Capture.

Michal
Old 2 days ago
  #24
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Cheers Michal and thanks again for your help
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