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i7 8700 vs 8700k opinions needed DAW Software
Old 1 week ago
  #1
Gear Head
 

Thread Starter
i7 8700 vs 8700k opinions needed

I'm very close to build a new computer and I'm between i7 8700 and 8700k. I'm working on ableton live 9, mostly midi with lots of plugins and when recording audio I record simultaneously maximum two channels.

Currently I'm working with a Lenovo ThikCentre M73 tiny Intel i5 - 4590T (2.00GHz boost to 3GHz) which is super great and ultra silent, but I have some projects with loads of plugins that put my cpu under stress (glitches).

Will I see a noticeable difference with 8700k? I'm asking this because in turbo boost they have only 100mhz difference.

Ps: Even if I go with 8700k I'll not overclock it, I don't like stressing cpus and raising temperatures.
Old 1 week ago
  #2
Gear Maniac
 

I'm curious also to this. I was looking at the difference between the 8700K and the 8600K. I hear they're lightning quick, and I can see myself outgrowing my DAW build budget here any minute...
Old 1 week ago
  #3
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The 'K' version are simply unlocked for overclocking. If you have no plans to do that, then save some cash and go with the non-K version. You should see a substantial improvement above an i5 - 4590T whether overclocked or not.
Old 1 week ago
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sl1200mk2 View Post
The 'K' version are simply unlocked for overclocking. If you have no plans to do that, then save some cash and go with the non-K version. You should see a substantial improvement above an i5 - 4590T whether overclocked or not.
This was true in early i-series CPUS, but not anymore; the k versions generally have a higher base clock speed now, even if you don't overclock. It's totally worth the extra $20-30 imho. 8700k vs 8700 is 3.7 vs 3.2 gHz base clock, but turbo speed evens out a bit.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_Lake

I agree that you should indeed see a substantial improvement over a 4590T either way.
Old 1 week ago
  #5
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Don't be afraid of Oclocking if your mobo can handle it. These geek/freaks at intel made them that way! But you need good cooling. A decent phantek/noctua does the trick well, and silently.
Old 1 week ago
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petergel View Post
I'm very close to build a new computer and I'm between i7 8700 and 8700k. I'm working on ableton live 9, mostly midi with lots of plugins and when recording audio I record simultaneously maximum two channels.

Currently I'm working with a Lenovo ThikCentre M73 tiny Intel i5 - 4590T (2.00GHz boost to 3GHz) which is super great and ultra silent, but I have some projects with loads of plugins that put my cpu under stress (glitches).

Will I see a noticeable difference with 8700k? I'm asking this because in turbo boost they have only 100mhz difference.

Ps: Even if I go with 8700k I'll not overclock it, I don't like stressing cpus and raising temperatures.
You want the K... they are the same price if you look around

Intel Core i7-8700K Coffee Lake 3.7 GHz LGA 1151 Boxed Processor BX80684I78700K - Micro Center
Old 1 week ago
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HexRanger View Post
This was true in early i-series CPUS, but not anymore; the k versions generally have a higher base clock speed now, even if you don't overclock. It's totally worth the extra $20-30 imho. 8700k vs 8700 is 3.7 vs 3.2 gHz base clock, but turbo speed evens out a bit.

Source: Coffee Lake - Wikipedia

I agree that you should indeed see a substantial improvement over a 4590T either way.
Ah, I didn’t realize they were that close in price and had a bump in clock. Yes, absolutely get the K in that case. I always get a K myself, but I’m also doing a fairly hefty overclock with an AIO water cooler and delided.
Old 1 week ago
  #8
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juiseman's Avatar
 

I would get the 8700k. Also,get a Z370 motherboard and lock the multiplier at 43-46ish (4.3GHZ-4.6GHZ) and don't worry about any damage. People are getting 5GHZ and more out of some of these chips.

You could get 1GHZ more performance for a minimal $ difference; that's huge.

Good luck, and happy building!!!

~juise~
Old 1 week ago
  #9
Gear Head
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by HexRanger View Post
This was true in early i-series CPUS, but not anymore; the k versions generally have a higher base clock speed now, even if you don't overclock. It's totally worth the extra $20-30 imho. 8700k vs 8700 is 3.7 vs 3.2 gHz base clock, but turbo speed evens out a bit.

Source: Coffee Lake - Wikipedia

I agree that you should indeed see a substantial improvement over a 4590T either way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by juiseman View Post
I would get the 8700k. Also,get a Z370 motherboard and lock the multiplier at 43-46ish (4.3GHZ-4.6GHZ) and don't worry about any damage. People are getting 5GHZ and more out of some of these chips.

You could get 1GHZ more performance for a minimal $ difference; that's huge.

Good luck, and happy building!!!
As I said, if I get the 8700K I’ll not overclock it, so in turbo boost the difference between the two cpus is negligible (4.70 vs 4.60GHz).
On base clock speeds the difference is higher (3.7 vs 3.2GHz). This extra power justifies the extra TDP on 8700K?

As I said, I don’t like raising temperatures and noise from cpu coolers, even if I’m planning to use Noctua NH-D15.
Old 1 week ago
  #10
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by petergel View Post
As I said, if I get the 8700K I’ll not overclock it, so in turbo boost the difference between the two cpus is negligible (4.70 vs 4.60GHz).
On base clock speeds the difference is higher (3.7 vs 3.2GHz). This extra power justifies the extra TDP on 8700K?

As I said, I don’t like raising temperatures and noise from cpu coolers, even if I’m planning to use Noctua NH-D15.
+1 for taking the TDP into account... something like 30 Watts (65 vs 95)difference is something when you keep the system running for hours and daily imho. I'm curious as to what others think about this aspect....
regards
Old 1 week ago
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petergel View Post
On base clock speeds the difference is higher (3.7 vs 3.2GHz). This extra power justifies the extra TDP on 8700K?

As I said, I don’t like raising temperatures and noise from cpu coolers, even if I’m planning to use Noctua NH-D15.
Check out your mobo's fan speed management functions. Mine, for example, has a drawable temp>speed ramp. Thus, I can cap my fan speeds, CPU and case (and then just set an alarm if it goes too high. It hasn't yet.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gearsuser View Post
+1 for taking the TDP into account... something like 30 Watts (65 vs 95)difference is something when you keep the system running for hours and daily imho. I'm curious as to what others think about this aspect....
Yes, but IMHO, unless you're going mini, or a small micro setup (or case airflow is otherwise a constraint), I've not found the power difference to be meaningful in any way, heat or power draw. Good airflow is the key, as always, but looks like you're already thinking about that. If you regret the extra power, hey, you can underclock

Note if I had originally purchased a 6700k, I would have seen no need to upgrade to the 7700k... I regretted buying the non-k, don't be me

Slightly off-topic, I'm firmly in the non-OC camp for critical use, but only to reduce variables in the environment. Vanilla PC w/beefy hardware = happy software running environment, more true today than the 95/98/XP days. $0.02
Old 5 days ago
  #12
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by HexRanger View Post
Check out your mobo's fan speed management functions. Mine, for example, has a drawable temp>speed ramp. Thus, I can cap my fan speeds, CPU and case (and then just set an alarm if it goes too high. It hasn't yet.)
Again, since I won't overclock my concern is if the difference at base clocks (3.700 vs 3.200mhz) worth to go with 8700k.
And since I won't overclock, when working with heavy projects, both cpus will work almost at the same speed (4.700 vs 4.600mhz in turbo boost).

The 8700k will certainly raise temperatures with its higher TDP.
it's a trade-off, I'm just not sure if the difference at base clocks (3.700 vs 3.200mhz) worth to go with 8700k and extra TDP.
Old 5 days ago
  #13
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Intel i7-8700 vs 8700k - TR Forums

"Even if you don't manually overclock the chip, the K variant has benefits with Z370 motherboards. It can turbo higher and the MCE (multi-core enchancement) feature on the motherboard will bump all core clockspeeds for you (to safe levels)."

Might be worth $50 extra. Hard to say without doing some benchmarks on the same system and swapping out the CPU.


UserBenchmark: Intel Core i7-8700 vs i7-8700K
Old 5 days ago
  #14
Gear Maniac
 

For a daw, you're going to get the most stable performance if you disable the turbo. Turbo will not boost all cores at the same time, unless you enable multicore enhancement. Multicore enhancement will actually raise the voltage automatically, it's much better to dial in all the settings yourself. Depending on the motherboard you probably can run all cores above 4 GHz on the stock voltage, even for the non k. If you want to draw less power, some motherboards also allow you to undervolt the cpu, but you'll have to play around to find which frequency you can get stable.

Last edited by Mplay; 5 days ago at 03:28 PM..
Old 5 days ago
  #15
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juiseman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mplay View Post
For a daw, you're going to get the most stable performance if you disable the turbo. Turbo will not boost all cores at the same time, unless you enable multicore enhancement. Multicore enhancement will actually raise the voltage automatically, it's much better to dial in all the settings yourself. Depending on the motherboard you probably can run all cores <4 GHz on the stock voltage, even for the non k. If you want to draw less power, some motherboards also allow you to undervolt the cpu, but you'll have to play around to find which frequency you can get stable.
100% agree; I remember years ago I was getting dropouts and ASIO spikes
when the CPU was throttling. Since then, I always lock in the CPU on the rated turbo speed and forget about it. Never mess with any other settings. All stock voltages. I would rather have all cores locked in sync than switching all the time.

I've had my i5 3570k locked at 4.0GHZ with stock voltages for 5+ years. No issues; sometimes that computer stays on for weeks at a time.

Either choice; 8700 or 8700k the op's motherboard/cpu is auto overclocking whether he wants it to or not. And disabling cores (which is not going to happen if running a heavy project). I guess that's why I suggested locking in at 4.4GHZ-4.6GHZ at stock voltages. In my view that's not overclocking; especially if stock voltages are used. That is what Intel says that CPU can do; I just like to get my money out of it.

These chips can handle more than we think sometimes..
Its not like trying to overclock a AMD Phenom II with BSOD at anything over 60c..lol. People run these jokers at way hotter. I remember I pushed a i7 4790k above 90c on a stock cooler (accidentally) in prime95 for a bit. I thought I damaged the cpu. But re-application of artic 5 and a $21 aftermarket cooler;
and its been good at stock voltage and 4.2GHZ for 4+ years....

Here is a Ref. on Turbo Boost 2.0; good toilet reading.

Intel(R) Turbo Boost Technology 2.0


Ref. on 8700 and 8700k

https://ark.intel.com/products/12668...up-to-4_60-GHz

https://ark.intel.com/products/12668...up-to-4_70-GHz

Good luck with the build!!

~juise~
Old 5 days ago
  #16
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by juiseman View Post
Either choice; 8700 or 8700k the op's motherboard/cpu is auto overclocking whether he wants it to or not. And disabling cores (which is not going to happen if running a heavy project). I guess that's why I suggested locking in at 4.4GHZ-4.6GHZ at stock voltages. In my view that's not overclocking; especially if stock voltages are used. That is what Intel says that CPU can do; I just like to get my money out of it.

These chips can handle more than we think sometimes...
Yes they can as long we keep the CPU cool and in the voltage specification range.
For me no more than 1.35V and temperature below 85°C.
To keep it silent I would aim at 4.8GHz with a big cooler air/water.

From GIGABYTE Z370 Guide to Overclocking Coffee Lake CPUs to 5GHz+ - Overclocking.Guide
"Based on our testing many Intel i7-8700Ks can hit 4.9-5GHz, without
delidding, using standard air coolers and around 1.25-1.3Vcore.
This is our experience with the CPUs we’ve tested. You may find that your CPU
will overclock better (or worse) than our samples so keep that in mind when
doing the testing."
Old 5 days ago
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petergel View Post
Again, since I won't overclock my concern is if the difference at base clocks (3.700 vs 3.200mhz) worth to go with 8700k.
And since I won't overclock, when working with heavy projects, both cpus will work almost at the same speed (4.700 vs 4.600mhz in turbo boost).

The 8700k will certainly raise temperatures with its higher TDP.
it's a trade-off, I'm just not sure if the difference at base clocks (3.700 vs 3.200mhz) worth to go with 8700k and extra TDP.
I was merely suggesting the extra heat isn't really a trade off if you're not overclocking and you're managing airflow. If there's a special consideration - running off battery on remotes, or working in a cramped/hot space, for example - that's a different story. But with grid power in a reasonable case/space, 30W worth of CPU heat isn't worth losing any sleep over IMHO. No one ever complained about their CPU being too fast.

THAT SAID, ran across a good video that nicely explains how/why bottlenecks occur in modern DAWs (hint: CPU isn't usually #1). I'm sure this has been posted here somewhere already, but:

YouTube

(credit to karbomusic in the Cockos forums for learnin' me this link)


Regardless, you're gonna be happy with either CPU, and hopefully make some great music

Last edited by HexRanger; 5 days ago at 06:48 AM.. Reason: tweaked release
Old 5 days ago
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HexRanger View Post

THAT SAID, ran across a good video that nicely explains how/why bottlenecks occur in modern DAWs (hint: CPU isn't usually #1). I'm sure this has been posted here somewhere already, but:

YouTube

(credit to karbomusic in the Cockos forums for learnin' me this link)

This should be a Sticky. I'd forgotten about this video. Watch it in its entirety, the presenter is good, nice flow to the vid so it's easy to watch.
Old 4 days ago
  #19
Gear Maniac
I guess the i9´s are not in the DAW game yet.. also read that they don´t support TB?
Old 4 days ago
  #20
Gear Head
 
juiseman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by submarin View Post
I guess the i9´s are not in the DAW game yet.. also read that they don´t support TB?
I think there are some benchmarks floating around somewhere.
they do have a lower base clock speed; so I'm not sure how that
effects DAW performance. Looking at Turbo boost 3.0 it seems to identify
the "best" core and overclock it the most while leaving the others at a lower
clock or disabling them if I'm understanding this correctly.

Intel(R) Core™ i9-7900X Processor

Turbo Boost Max 3.0 and Package Differences - The Intel Broadwell-E Review: Core i7-6950X, i7-6900K, i7-6850K and i7-6800K Tested

It amazes me that its taken so long for Thunderbolt to come to PC.
I don't know why they didn't integrate it sooner. Thunderbolt 1 was out in 2011.
7 years ago??? lol...
Old 4 days ago
  #21
Gear Head
 

Old 4 days ago
  #22
Gear Maniac
Old 4 days ago
  #23
Gear Head
 
juiseman's Avatar
 

That is a beast of a CPU..
Old 4 days ago
  #24
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by submarin View Post
Thanks!
So I´d rather loo for them now...
You are welcome!

--------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by juiseman View Post
That is a beast of a CPU..
Delid the beast

And use Direct-Die-Frame
Old 3 days ago
  #25
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OP

I just built the 8700K system linked below - running Win 10, ProTools 12.81, Waves Gold, Kontakt Komplete, MOTU 1248 interface:

System Builder - Core i7-8700K 3.7GHz 6-Core, GeForce GTX 950 2GB FTW ACX 2.0, Define R5 (Black) ATX Mid Tower - PCPartPicker Canada

If you want low latency, the 8700K system is probably the way to go because of the faster single core performance.

I overclock to 5.0 GHz. Overclocking is trivial (see YouTube) and completely stable on my system. Actually, I find overclocking gives better stability/performance for DAW work. I disable all clock and power switching in the BIOS. I setup a custom fan profile in the BIOS for quieter operation. Airflow is important for overclocking. With the Noctu cooler I reverse the normal case airflow to draw in from the back directly onto the Noctu radiator, and exhaust out the front. This gets the coolest air over the radiator for cooling. The CPU never goes above 70C when using ProTools on a busy project.

I am very happy with the 8700K. I had been using an overclocked 3770K (4.5 GHz) for several years waiting for a worthy upgrade. This was it. The single core performance allows me to run at 64 sample buffer 24/96 kHz for recording (16 audio, 16 midi, 3 Kontakt VIs), and the 6 cores allow me to run many more CPU intensive plugins during mixing. All good.

Cheers

EJ
Old 2 days ago
  #26
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ejinbc View Post
OP

I just built the 8700K system linked below - running Win 10, ProTools 12.81, Waves Gold, Kontakt Komplete, MOTU 1248 interface:

System Builder - Core i7-8700K 3.7GHz 6-Core, GeForce GTX 950 2GB FTW ACX 2.0, Define R5 (Black) ATX Mid Tower - PCPartPicker Canada

If you want low latency, the 8700K system is probably the way to go because of the faster single core performance.

I overclock to 5.0 GHz. Overclocking is trivial (see YouTube) and completely stable on my system. Actually, I find overclocking gives better stability/performance for DAW work. I disable all clock and power switching in the BIOS. I setup a custom fan profile in the BIOS for quieter operation. Airflow is important for overclocking. With the Noctu cooler I reverse the normal case airflow to draw in from the back directly onto the Noctu radiator, and exhaust out the front. This gets the coolest air over the radiator for cooling. The CPU never goes above 70C when using ProTools on a busy project.

I am very happy with the 8700K. I had been using an overclocked 3770K (4.5 GHz) for several years waiting for a worthy upgrade. This was it. The single core performance allows me to run at 64 sample buffer 24/96 kHz for recording (16 audio, 16 midi, 3 Kontakt VIs), and the 6 cores allow me to run many more CPU intensive plugins during mixing. All good.

Cheers

EJ
Did you delid your 8700k? I just ordered mine for my daw build but I hear delidding is crucial to keep temps down for overclocking. I went on the water cooling route for the cpu, so hopefully that'll help things out.
Old 2 days ago
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Cunningham View Post
Did you delid your 8700k? I just ordered mine for my daw build but I hear delidding is crucial to keep temps down for overclocking. I went on the water cooling route for the cpu, so hopefully that'll help things out.
NO. I did not delid my CPU. Should not be necessary for 5 GHz. Get the thermal paste right and make sure you have the coolest air possible moving over the radiators. I just used the built in overclock profile for 5 GHz on the Asus Z370 Prime A motherboard and adjusted the XMP for my memory. Once it was working, I lowered the CPU voltage from the overclock default until my system wasn't stable in a stress test then upped the CPU voltage back a few mV. Done stable and cool.

Also note, there is a big difference in CPU load (temperatures) between running a DAW with a busy project and running a Prime stress test. On a stress test the CPU temp cycles from 60 to 85 C, but with a full DAW load it only goes up to 70 C max.
Old 1 day ago
  #28
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I've had an o/c 8700k + 3333mhz o/c GSkill CL14 ram since november last year. It runs solid all the time in Pro Tools and Studio one. Performance (plug counts) more than doubled over my old 2700k o/c @4.4ghz, quick example of to of my head - take the PSP E27 which is pretty cpu hungry

count before hitting 100% in Studio One 3 with all features engaged (inc pre amp emus and all knobs turned/on and the X2 engaged to bring up SIX bands - all engaged!)

old system = 46 stereo instances
new system *stock* no overclock = 93 instances

I run at 88.2khz btw not 44.1k so bear that in mind. If I went to 44k obviously i'd have way more (but I don't because I like to know plugs are working great at higher sample rates)

Factor in the o/c and you'll get even more. That's quite a good jump for me. I run the 8700k at 4.9ghz and sometimes 5ghz but I'm only on air (good air - Noctua cooler) and it runs pretty quiet on air so I'm stopping there. I'm gonna put it down to 4.9ghz for 24/7 as it's more than enough anyway and I don't want to go full water cooling (and noctua actually matches/beats the low end all in one water coolers and with less noise)

No point buying an 8700k if you're not going to at least o/c a little, that's leaving free money on the table!

I don't think super high core count machines will even compete with a smaller core faster clock + all the small improvements of coffee lake vs 3 gen old higher core counts for DAWs as they pile up the stuff on a couple of cores if they are in an audio path (busses and mix bus) anyway so the 6 cores at 5ghz is a good sweet spot, of course you CAN get more power but for a LOT more money all round (inc higher priced mobos etc).

I have asus maximus hero X, GSkill ram, Samsung SSDs... all fine and dandy here for another few years I'm sure. And all in cost me less than a grand (reusing my PSU, monitor and stuff from my last build of course).

No delid, used thermal grizzly kryonaut paste.

No crashes, no throttling, all cores clocked the same.
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