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MOTU 828es--Any impressions?
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #301
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirjuxtable ➡️
Yeah, that's fair! Especially in my compromised mixing room, a bet a digital crossover would be of some use. I appreciate it.
To be completely fair, it's possible to do digital room correction, and to some extent even driver phase correction, without a digital crossover. You can even make a cardioid box with passive impendence- the same way a dynamic cardioid mic works, but on a larger scale (same way MEG and 8c work). I've actually built some- it works but it's super tinkery.

The good news is there is basically an avenue for everyone to navigate this to generally get what they want, and maintain their preferences.

These guys have digital IO, automated room and phase correction-

https://www.minidsp.com/dirac-series/ddrc-22d

You would just want to rig a way to bypass it as phase correction is an FIR process and has latency. The Kii and D&D have presets. low latency when needed, higher when needed.

Cheap coaxial A/B switches on amazon work for spdif switching.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #302
Gear Nut
 
HCMarkus's Avatar
The ideal way for digitally-controlled Studio Monitor volume to be handled would be volume control POST DSP, with a remote-controlled DCA in each monitor. That way, full bit-depth audio would be passed from interface to speakers and used in computing crossovers/EQ etc, and the DSP outputs would be converted to analog for each driver, then attenuated.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #303
Here for the gear
 
Sorry if I bring back the post on a less technical field. It would be awesome to know if someone over here has actually upgraded from 828mk3 to an 828es and feels that the difference between the two is like night and day sonically (sound depth, detail, low/medium volume mixing).

Let aside all the tech specs which of course are better in the 828es.

Thank you so much in advance.
Old 6 days ago
  #304
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Few things to ask 828es users.

Are there any difference between mixing and touch screen ? It’s confusing for some reason(unexperienced user I am).
All I want to do is record 6-12ch simultaneously and make 2-4 headphone mixes. And I’m lost even before I started with matrix..
are there any good instructions for this routing matrix and mixing, touch screen web browser thing?
Old 5 days ago | Show parent
  #305
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by HCMarkus ➡️
The ideal way for digitally-controlled Studio Monitor volume to be handled would be volume control POST DSP, with a remote-controlled DCA in each monitor. That way, full bit-depth audio would be passed from interface to speakers and used in computing crossovers/EQ etc, and the DSP outputs would be converted to analog for each driver, then attenuated.
Switched resistor network with super high tolerance and matched impedance is better than DCA's without a doubt, and if it were to be 'ideal'- the weakest link in the monitoring chain by far is the power amp, not the DAC- so post amp switched resistor network would be ideal.

It's a rabbit hole not worth getting into in a thread about an interface- but -48.48dBFS is still full 16bit. If we define needed peaks for reference monitoring at 115dB and consider program crest factor of 10-25dB to apparent loudness, then we can still be getting 16bits while monitoring with apparent loudness levels from 31.5dB to 48.5dB. These are simply not useful reference monitoring levels, turn the speakers up even 12dB and you're getting 18bit at the dacs and higher SnR than any amp save maybe the benchmark AHD2.

Until power amps can achieve a SnR that comes close to dacs, and unless we have control rooms quieter than NR10, and still ignoring that equal loudness problems make super low levels not very useful reference levels for mixing/mastering, attenuating pre-dac is not the weakest link in the chain.

There is a point where a 5000hp engine makes no sense if state of the art tires can only handle 1500hp. It's not an engineering mistake, or a flaw or poor design that Kii, D&D, HEDD, Genelec and so on are implementing digital crossovers. Horses for courses, but there is nothing *wrong* with this approach, and things to be gained here as well.

Last edited by RyanC; 5 days ago at 05:25 AM.. Reason: clarity
Old 5 days ago | Show parent
  #306
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Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC ➡️
I was looking at an 828es and wanting to use it to feed spdif to my monitors (a or b, deposn't really matter) as well. Did anyone ever figure out if there's a work around for this?
I have good news, and an apology to offer for creating a misperception around this issue. The short version: everything works as expected once you've configured the unit correctly.

The slightly longer version:

MotU got back to me rapidly to confirm that it's supposed to work, and that they had done loopback tests for me confirming that the digital outputs can be adjusted with the main monitoring controls. I had been sufficiently scarred by full scale output that I was disinclined to do proper testing and learn what I needed to, but with carefully controlled conditions here's what I've learned...

In full:

The Device Tab doesn't control routing at all, it determines what additional processing is performed on outputs designated as Monitor A and Monitor B. Exactly what signals go to which outputs is still determined on the Routing Tab, but by designating an output as Monitor A or Monitor B you're saying "I want additional control over these from the front panel." This is what opts you into attenuating outputs using the rotary encoder labelled "Monitor" on the front panel. It also causes the Mono collapse button to operate for the affected outputs, as well as the family of mute controls in the form of the Mute button and the individual A/B enable toggles.

I must have made a mistake in assignment here, failing to designate the S/PDIF output as one of my monitor pairs before setting up routing from the Main mix to the output. So, definitely my fault in hindsight but also a relatively easy mistake to make. What I've written above wasn't intuitively obvious to me. I had started with this tab expecting that it would establish routing, and when it didn't I must have left it in the wrong state when I turned to the routing tab to get audio flowing.

Part of it comes down to not having a great mental model for how it all works. I've worked with the routing system enough to know what I'm doing there, but I so rarely needed to change anything with how monitoring was set up that I didn't have a solid grasp of the precise role of those settings. I do wonder if there's something that wouldn't make this clearer. It doesn't help that there's something called a Monitor Mix coming out of the mixer section that's unrelated to the Monitor controls, which will often be controlling outputs coming from the Main Mix. To be fair, good terminology is hard, especially in a system this flexible.

Hopefully that sheds some light on the subject and makes things clearer. If only I could remember where I found information that seemed to confirm my initial incorrect assumptions. Ah well, c'est la vie. Live, learn, and make music!
Old 5 days ago | Show parent
  #307
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia ➡️
I have good news, and an apology to offer for creating a misperception around this issue. The short version: everything works as expected once you've configured the unit correctly.

The slightly longer version:

MotU got back to me rapidly to confirm that it's supposed to work, and that they had done loopback tests for me confirming that the digital outputs can be adjusted with the main monitoring controls. I had been sufficiently scarred by full scale output that I was disinclined to do proper testing and learn what I needed to, but with carefully controlled conditions here's what I've learned...

In full:

The Device Tab doesn't control routing at all, it determines what additional processing is performed on outputs designated as Monitor A and Monitor B. Exactly what signals go to which outputs is still determined on the Routing Tab, but by designating an output as Monitor A or Monitor B you're saying "I want additional control over these from the front panel." This is what opts you into attenuating outputs using the rotary encoder labelled "Monitor" on the front panel. It also causes the Mono collapse button to operate for the affected outputs, as well as the family of mute controls in the form of the Mute button and the individual A/B enable toggles.

I must have made a mistake in assignment here, failing to designate the S/PDIF output as one of my monitor pairs before setting up routing from the Main mix to the output. So, definitely my fault in hindsight but also a relatively easy mistake to make. What I've written above wasn't intuitively obvious to me. I had started with this tab expecting that it would establish routing, and when it didn't I must have left it in the wrong state when I turned to the routing tab to get audio flowing.

Part of it comes down to not having a great mental model for how it all works. I've worked with the routing system enough to know what I'm doing there, but I so rarely needed to change anything with how monitoring was set up that I didn't have a solid grasp of the precise role of those settings. I do wonder if there's something that wouldn't make this clearer. It doesn't help that there's something called a Monitor Mix coming out of the mixer section that's unrelated to the Monitor controls, which will often be controlling outputs coming from the Main Mix. To be fair, good terminology is hard, especially in a system this flexible.

Hopefully that sheds some light on the subject and makes things clearer. If only I could remember where I found information that seemed to confirm my initial incorrect assumptions. Ah well, c'est la vie. Live, learn, and make music!

Thanks for the update on that...Can overall presets including monitor mix choices be saved and recalled easily? I'm in a multi-user space so things not being too complicated is important.
Old 5 days ago | Show parent
  #308
Lives for gear
 
Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC ➡️
Thanks for the update on that...Can overall presets including monitor mix choices be saved and recalled easily? I'm in a multi-user space so things not being too complicated is important.
I haven't made much use of the preset system, but it's quite extensive. You can easily save and recall named presets with the entire state of the device, which sounds like what you're looking for. You can also save just the state of a specific area to be recalled later: there are individual preset types for the routing grid, mixer state, channel strips, and individual effects (EQ, compressor, leveler, high-pass filter, etc.)
Old 3 days ago
  #309
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Can you connect it only with ethernet to a computer and do all the recording off of that? And skip Thunderbolt and USB3 altogether?
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #310
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Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dilznik ➡️
Can you connect it only with ethernet to a computer and do all the recording off of that? And skip Thunderbolt and USB3 altogether?
You can do so with a computer and Ethernet interface that support AVB, but I wouldn't recommend it for typical studio use. While modern Macs all support AVB, not every Ethernet interface in common use will do so, configuration is trickier since the MotU driver can't get involved, and the operating system is optimized for network throughput rather than latency.

So yes, it's supported. There may even be specific situations where it makes sense, perhaps in some live recording setups where latency isn't an issue but you're on a budget and want to put your one 828es close to the stage setup while the recording computer remains at a significant distance? Did you have something in particular in mind like this?
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #311
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia ➡️
Did you have something in particular in mind like this?
Thanks for the info. No I didn't but I thought that if I get one I'll stick it on my desk right next to my Mac and I didn't want to cough up for a short TB cable when I'm swimming in ethernet cables.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #312
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Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dilznik ➡️
Thanks for the info. No I didn't but I thought that if I get one I'll stick it on my desk right next to my Mac and I didn't want to cough up for a short TB cable when I'm swimming in ethernet cables.
IMHO it's not worth the tradeoffs for most use cases. In particular, it will significantly complicate your life when getting started as AVB configuration is an intimidating place to begin. It's not the path of least resistance, that's for sure! If you're not convinced the low-latency benefits of Thunderbolt are worth it, just starting with an inexpensive USB cable should do the trick.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #313
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Okay cool thanks. I won't cheap out on the TB cable then.
Old 1 day ago | Show parent
  #314
Gear Nut
 
HCMarkus's Avatar
I've been running my 828ES via USB for some time now (I bought mine shortly after the unit was introduced by MOTU) with great success. Just an FYI.
Old 1 day ago | Show parent
  #315
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dilznik ➡️
Can you connect it only with ethernet to a computer and do all the recording off of that? And skip Thunderbolt and USB3 altogether?
Also be aware, that when connected via ethernet-cable
on Mac only 48, 96 and 192 kHz are supported!
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