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New Mac Pros (complete modular redesign) and Pro Level iMacs on the Way DAW Software
Old 4th April 2017
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

New Mac Pros (complete modular redesign) and Pro Level iMacs on the Way

In a pretty big departure from their normal close-to-the-vest policy regarding future plans, Apple has revealed that they are working on a brand new redesign of the Mac Pro, making it a modular design to be more in line with what Pro users have been screaming for for years. Also announced are new Pro Level iMacs and a high end Apple display to accompany the upcoming Mac Pro.

Sounds like Apple's been listening to all the complaining we've been doing and is attempting to rectify it.

Who knows what the new machines will bring but such a departure from their normal policy of secrecy portends that they're finally catching a clue what we've been talking about for years. Now lets see how they execute...

Daring Fireball: The Mac Pro Lives
Old 4th April 2017
  #2
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by noisenet View Post
a high end Apple display to accompany the upcoming Mac Pro.
Hopefully as an option only.
Old 4th April 2017
  #3
Lives for gear
That is amazing if true!
I can't believe that asshat reporter didn't ask about pcie slots. He had them right there at the table and didn't think to ask the absolutely most obvious question????!!

Too bad about the wait though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by noisenet View Post
In a pretty big departure from their normal close-to-the-vest policy regarding future plans, Apple has revealed that they are working on a brand new redesign of the Mac Pro, making it a modular design to be more in line with what Pro users have been screaming for for years. Also announced are new Pro Level iMacs and a high end Apple display to accompany the upcoming Mac Pro.

Sounds like Apple's been listening to all the complaining we've been doing and is attempting to rectify it.

Who knows what the new machines will bring but such a departure from their normal policy of secrecy portends that they're finally catching a clue what we've been talking about for years. Now lets see how they execute...

Daring Fireball: The Mac Pro Lives

Last edited by 808KickDrum; 4th April 2017 at 06:20 PM.. Reason: To two too tutu
Old 4th April 2017
  #4
Lives for gear
 
muziksculp's Avatar
 

This is good news.

But it won't be out until 2018, and who knows which quarter of 2018.
Old 4th April 2017
  #5
jck
Gear Head
 

I own a 2013 trash can Mac Pro. It is the best computer I have owned and it will serve me for many years to come.

When I bought it new in December of 2014, I wondered whether I should wait, whether a refresh was right around the corner. I am glad I did not wait because I would still be waiting until some time 2018.
Old 4th April 2017
  #6
Lives for gear
 
~ufo~'s Avatar
Schiller said none of them will come with touch screens though, because apparently pros are not interested in them.
Well I'm a pro, and I'm interested in them. In fact, i use one every day and if you don't start supporting touch screens in macOS, I'll be leaving you for windows which, trust me, is not something I want to do.

The oversight of redesigning the iMac in 2017 and not adding a touch screen is painful to behold.
Hell, you had an iMac design in 2002 already that was screaming for one.

Jus immagine 2017-2018...
Daddy's got a brand new $4k computer. Kid walks in, touches screen, nothing happens, shrugs and walks away from dumb, old thing...

I for one cannot believe there are so many users, let alone companies like Apple who cannot seem to get past the fact that touch screens needn't replace your keyboard, mouse and display. They just keep staring at their current computers and say 'See? It wouldn't make sense if this were a touch screen'. And thus it is proved according to them. No, you've only proven it needs a redesign OR the touch screen could be an ADDITION, e.g. between your normal display, keyboard and mouse.

I use a touch screen every day, once you do that you'll understand it is a very welcome addition to computing and you'll find yourself trying to close prompts on your MacBook by tapping.

It is 2017. Computers have touch screens now, it's too ironic that Apple are dragging their feet about it.
I understand that they want to get it right and most of their Mac user base are on 11-13" screens.
But at least frigging support external touch screens on your OS....

No, no, I'm sorry. Looks like I'll be leaving you Apple.
You're old and boring now.
Microsoft has been working out...
we're going ice skating on the now frozen planes of hell.

Touch in Windows is not perfect, and I'm sure Apple could do it better. But they don't see the point and Microsoft do. Microsoft are ahead.
By bye Apple, too bad you couldn't keep up.
Stay in touch yeah.

Last edited by ~ufo~; 4th April 2017 at 10:05 PM..
Old 4th April 2017
  #7
Lives for gear
 
stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~ufo~ View Post
I for one cannot believe there are so many users, let alone companies like Apple who cannot seem to get past the fact that touch screens needn't replace your keyboard, mouse and display.

Apple has repeatedly said that they won't compromise user experience with a hybrid device. Touch and keyboard/mouse are fundamentally different input methods. Creating and OS (and apps) that do both simply means lack of focus, lack of decisiveness, and a lot more work, only to achieve mediocrity.


PC manufacturers had touch screen PCs (with Windows) for 10 years before the iPhone/iPad hit the market. Each and every one of them was a piece of junk, because the designers did not comprehend the fundamental difference between the input methods.

The devices today are a little better, but still a compromise.


Also, remember that Apple devices always get the highest scores in terms of customer satisfaction. Offering a crappier experience would be counterproductive in that regard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ~ufo~ View Post
Touch in Windows is not perfect, and I'm sure Apple could do it better.
Apple does it better, because they do not confuse input methods, and build an OS specifically for touch (iOS).
Old 4th April 2017
  #8
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
Apple has repeatedly said that they won't compromise user experience with a hybrid device. Touch and keyboard/mouse are fundamentally different input methods. Creating and OS (and apps) that do both simply means lack of focus, lack of decisiveness, and a lot more work, only to achieve mediocrity.


PC manufacturers had touch screen PCs (with Windows) for 10 years before the iPhone/iPad hit the market. Each and every one of them was a piece of junk, because the designers did not comprehend the fundamental difference between the input methods.

The devices today are a little better, but still a compromise.


Also, remember that Apple devices always get the highest scores in terms of customer satisfaction. Offering a crappier experience would be counterproductive in that regard.




Apple does it better, because they do not confuse input methods, and build an OS specifically for touch (iOS).
I totally agree.
Old 4th April 2017
  #9
Lives for gear
 
~ufo~'s Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
Apple has repeatedly said that they won't compromise user experience with a hybrid device. Touch and keyboard/mouse are fundamentally different input methods. Creating and OS (and apps) that do both simply means lack of focus, lack of decisiveness, and a lot more work, only to achieve mediocrity.
Yeah, I know they've said that. I disagree though.
I can't help but think they say it mainly because most of their Mac user base is on 11-13" screens, for which I can understand it and there's some truth to it. An iOS kind of experience does make more sense for a small screen. For iMacs and Mac Pro screens, however, not so.

However
1. The merge WILL happen. In fact it already has begun. I understand they want to get it right and that's fine, but they're dragging their feet while others are advancing. The problem is, and I told Tim Cook this and this is nog my opinion, this is fact: They are now ironically hindering the advancement of touch development in the pro (audio) market.

2. I use macOS on a 27" touch screen everyday, it's mostly fine. The most tricky bits are the red, yeller and green dots really. Hardly a touch design challenge to overcome.

3. What's wrong with being fndamentally different input methods anyway?
They work fine together. Hell, the mouse and the keyboard are fundamentally extremely different and they've been getting along fine for decades.


Quote:
PC manufacturers had touch screen PCs (with Windows) for 10 years before the iPhone/iPad hit the market. Each and every one of them was a piece of junk, because the designers did not comprehend the fundamental difference between the input methods.
So Apple did well to wait, fine I can accept that. Irrelevant now though since they did dive in and now they are dragging their feet because they don't know how to merge them.

Quote:
The devices today are a little better, but still a compromise.
And Apple's products today are not?

Quote:
Also, remember that Apple devices always get the highest scores in terms of customer satisfaction. Offering a crappier experience would be counterproductive in that regard.
Yes, you'll likely see them dwindle.

How do you know it'll be crappier though?
I'm fine, if I'd have gesture support and an easier window close button I'd be golden. Awesome user experience. Trust me All of your current favourite input device will stil work, but you will have gained touch functionality.
I doubt there'll be many people complaining about that.
I think there'll be more people complaining about the lack of touch.

Listen, I get that Apple want a clear vision and a clean slate kind of thing.
But sometimes it's not necessary or possible.
The change is happening, people want to use EXTERNAL touch screens on a Mac and it's embarrassing that in 2017 you need a third party driver to get the damn thing to even work, let alone gestures.
Whether you agree with Apple's approach or not the reality is that they are dragging their feet whilst Microsoft is on their third major OS that supports touch and it's fine, the hybrid thing is fine, for some things you prefer to use the trackpad, for some the keyboard, for some the mouse and for some the touch screen. Pretty much how it's always been. It's really not disruptive at all.
What is disruptive is Apple still not even supporting touch in their so called state of the art OS.
A redesigned iMac in 2017 without touch is an oversight. I use touch every day and there's no way you can convince me that it's not an oversight.
Because it needn't replace your normal workflow.
They can exist side by side, certainly on a large display, no problem.
Having such a beautiful, powerful new computer not react to touch will be embarrassing and counter productive.
You may not see that now, but I'm positive you will.
Regardless, iOS and macOS will merge, they already are. It really needn't dilute the functionality of either of them. You just add possibilities.

I'm not advocating everyone be FORCED to change their ways and use touch,
I'm advocating Apple stops forcing us pros NOT to use touch and just ADD touch to their pro systems. What they're saying now is: touch is just for consumers.
Well, you're wrong. ****ing iPads are (mainly) for consumers, but even pros use those every day to remote control their professional mixers who, guess what? probably have touch screens.
Large touch screens are definitely a powerful tool for professionals.
It is an addition, not a replacement, if you find you don't need the mouse, trackpad or keyboard anymore, get rid of them. If you don't, keep them.
But stop holding us pros who want to use touch screens back because you can't make up your mind about how to implement it, Apple.
A screw it, I'm leaving.
Too bad, I'm sure you could beat Microsoft at their game.
Maybe I'll see you when you finally do.
Keep in touch, yeah?


Apple does it better, because they do not confuse input methods, and build an OS specifically for touch (iOS).
Yeah, true to some extent and for some applications, but utter nonsense for many in 2017, I'm sorry. Not your fault, nothing personal.
Apple are hindering the development of touch.
I'm convinced of it. I get where they are coming from, but it doesn't change the facts on the ground.

Have fun with your new iMacs and modular Mac Pros.
I'm sure they'll be pretty.
I'm leaving after eighteen years of Mac OS...
Old 4th April 2017
  #10
Lives for gear
 
~ufo~'s Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tkmin View Post
I totally agree.
One more question before I let you guys get back to talking about Mac Pros and iMacs:


Have you and Stratology ever used macOS with a touch screen?
Old 5th April 2017
  #11
Mjah... my studio DAW will probably be another Mac Pro.
I really liked their old alu beast. Don't change a design if it works. Curious what they'll come up with now.
For me, the design of a workhorse DAW is not a fashion statement, the thing is in a soundproof closet.
The next laptop is going to be a tablet (touchscreen) running Linux and Bitwig.
A scribble strip with emojis and a fingerprint pay option is not something I pay that kind of money for.
Old 5th April 2017
  #12
Lives for gear
 
rockreid's Avatar
 

I'm more interested in the iMac revision coming up later this year. They will surely have Thunderbolt 3 and Optane drive capability. Probably Kaby Lake CPUs- fast and efficient.
Old 5th April 2017
  #13
Lives for gear
 
The Beatsmith's Avatar
 

Fantastic news - a little reassurance goes a long way. Closest you'll see Apple to admitting they made a mistake.
Old 5th April 2017
  #14
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockreid View Post
I'm more interested in the iMac revision coming up later this year. They will surely have Thunderbolt 3 and Optane drive capability. Probably Kaby Lake CPUs- fast and efficient.
Same here, very interested in seeing what performance they can ship in a Pro iMac this year.

It was also reassuring that Logic and Final Cut got a shoutout!
Old 5th April 2017
  #15
Lives for gear
 

I banged myself a Newton 2000 from a pawn shop back when I was 14 - the first thing to touch that user experience was the ipad Pro with the apple pencil.

Yes they are dragging their heels, but I doubt any of us are going to turn up our noes when their next solution comes along.

I'll be pleased to see a new mac pro, BUT i'm super happy with the power house i can throw in a backpack and just plug in to any mice/monitors at the destination.
Old 5th April 2017
  #16
Gear Nut
 

pro level iMac?? It's like saying pro level iphone.
It just sounds like they are trying to confuse customer.
Jobs could bring a new phase with a fresh product but I know it can't happen.
Old 5th April 2017
  #17
Lives for gear
 
zephonic's Avatar
I've been traveling and only just now read Gruber's post. This is great news. A lot of "first time evers" for Apple, they have never been this forthcoming about anything, least of all unreleased products.

I guess this goes to show that nagging works. If we nag long and hard enough, even a self-satisfied behemoth like Apple will eventually have to start listening.

For me personally, this is great on two levels: First, I upgraded my 4,1 quad to a 5,1 hex two months ago, and it should be powerful enough to hold me over until the 7,1 drops (knock on wood). And second, I have been on the fence about dumping Cubase for Logic at long last, but my doubts about Apple's commitment to the Mac was a factor. This announcement addresses that concern, and now there really isn't anything stopping me from getting LPX.

That was the best DF blog post ever :-)
Old 5th April 2017
  #18
Lives for gear
 
stratology's Avatar
 

The next obvious question is: why will it take them at least a year to come up with the new Mac Pro.

Possible explanations: they do not want a machine with standard components slapped together, they're working on their own CPU, and possibly GPU.

This would also make sense in context: they developed CPUs for their biggest seller, iPhones, first, Macs could be next. The proprietary SSD controller and the T1 chip on the new MBPs could be another hint.
Old 5th April 2017
  #19
Lives for gear
knowing its a year away (or I guess even more?!) and 6 cores now 2999 will make me jump in to current Mac Pro.

figure will be a great machine for a few years, whilst they roll out new concept machines, which im also excited for!

to me its ethical to be as transparent as they have been with this, and reaffirms my faith in Apple - which running an 11 year old Mac Pro here, is very healthy.
Old 5th April 2017
  #20
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredouli View Post
knowing its a year away (or I guess even more?!) and 6 cores now 2999 will make me jump in to current Mac Pro.

figure will be a great machine for a few years, whilst they roll out new concept machines, which im also excited for!

to me its ethical to be as transparent as they have been with this, and reaffirms my faith in Apple - which running an 11 year old Mac Pro here, is very healthy.
I thought about whether I would finally replace my dying 2008, but I could see myself regretting that without knowing what 2018 (possibly late 2018) holds in store. I just want more info. I know I can't afford to do this twice.

I do think the Mac Pros of late, the 2008s/09s are somewhat of an anomaly. We got lucky on those machines.
Old 5th April 2017
  #21
Lives for gear
 
pulsar modular's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~ufo~ View Post
Schiller said none of them will come with touch screens though, because apparently pros are not interested in them.
Well I'm a pro, and I'm interested in them. In fact, i use one every day and if you don't start supporting touch screens in macOS, I'll be leaving you for windows which, trust me, is not something I want to do.

The oversight of redesigning the iMac in 2017 and not adding a touch screen is painful to behold.
Hell, you had an iMac design in 2002 already that was screaming for one.

Jus immagine 2017-2018...
Daddy's got a brand new $4k computer. Kid walks in, touches screen, nothing happens, shrugs and walks away from dumb, old thing...

I for one cannot believe there are so many users, let alone companies like Apple who cannot seem to get past the fact that touch screens needn't replace your keyboard, mouse and display. They just keep staring at their current computers and say 'See? It wouldn't make sense if this were a touch screen'. And thus it is proved according to them. No, you've only proven it needs a redesign OR the touch screen could be an ADDITION, e.g. between your normal display, keyboard and mouse.

I use a touch screen every day, once you do that you'll understand it is a very welcome addition to computing and you'll find yourself trying to close prompts on your MacBook by tapping.

It is 2017. Computers have touch screens now, it's too ironic that Apple are dragging their feet about it.
I understand that they want to get it right and most of their Mac user base are on 11-13" screens.
But at least frigging support external touch screens on your OS....

No, no, I'm sorry. Looks like I'll be leaving you Apple.
You're old and boring now.
Microsoft has been working out...
we're going ice skating on the now frozen planes of hell.

Touch in Windows is not perfect, and I'm sure Apple could do it better. But they don't see the point and Microsoft do. Microsoft are ahead.
By bye Apple, too bad you couldn't keep up.
Stay in touch yeah.
Perhaps Apple will support it in a different way? The keyboard, trackpad and touch bar could ultimately merge into a single programmable touch screen input device with haptic feedback. That might make more sense for desktops and laptops than a touch display that you'd need to reach for. It wouldn't be such a huge step. The trackpad already uses haptic feedback to simulate a click, the keyboard already has a minimal profile, the touch bar will probably grow in size
Old 5th April 2017
  #22
Lives for gear
 
~ufo~'s Avatar
I bought my 2012 Mac Pro because I couldn't hold out for the new model.
I was well annoyed that I had to deal with a mac that didn't have thunderbolt or USB3 in 2012 and I expected to trade it in for the new model within a year or two.
It is now 2017. I'll be following this closely, but it's unlikely I will be upgrading to the new Mac Pro, unless they move away from Xeons and offer models with i7 extremes, which I don't expect them to do.
I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with though.
Old 5th April 2017
  #23
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by smoke View Post
I thought about whether I would finally replace my dying 2008, but I could see myself regretting that without knowing what 2018 (possibly late 2018) holds in store. I just want more info. I know I can't afford to do this twice.

I do think the Mac Pros of late, the 2008s/09s are somewhat of an anomaly. We got lucky on those machines.
I see this as confirmation of future plans for upgradeable Desktop machines and support to this market.
But also as indication that it is at least a year off (if not more - nowhere do they say 2018).. an apple 'don't hold your breath but you're not forgotten' - which I appreciate.
With the new offering 6 core base machine at this price (Less VAT and a discount i might get) I see this as good value for a few years computing.
And I look forward to upgrading again in 2019 / 2020 maybe when this new machine they are developing is out and road tested as well.
Old 5th April 2017
  #24
Lives for gear
 
~ufo~'s Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pulsar modular View Post
Perhaps Apple will support it in a different way? The keyboard, trackpad and touch bar could ultimately merge into a single programmable touch screen input device with haptic feedback. That might make more sense for desktops and laptops than a touch display that you'd need to reach for. It wouldn't be such a huge step. The trackpad already uses haptic feedback to simulate a click, the keyboard already has a minimal profile, the touch bar will probably grow in size
These are all nice advancements, but they just do not take away the appeal of being able to touch the GUI that's on the display itself.
Only if you would design a GUI where there's absolutely no need to touch what's in front of you, but can do everything with the input devices, would what you propose be a satisfactory solution.

Don't get me wrong, I'd personally like the keyboard to turn into a touch screen too.
For me that would be fine, because I don't need it that much, but for others it probably wouldn't.
For instance if my mouse, trackpad and keyboard could turn into one slab of touchscreen which could virtually host my faders, keyboard, toolbars, macros etc, I'd be more than happy.
BUT, you'd still want to be able to touch things on the screen...
Editing directly, manipulating plugins, operating inserts, sends, prompts etc.
There's nothing wrong with also being able to touch the screen.
Look at any DAW, look at your own DAW, most of that stuff is cool to touch.
Only some elements in current DAWs are a bit small to grab, most stuff is fine.
I have the feeling a lot of people who never used a touch screen to control Mac or their DAW are overthinking it or going only by experience of a phone or tablet.
Here, size really does matter.
And iPad was not just a big iPhone, it made for a different user experience.
For a lot of people, it's all the computer they need now.
A large touch screen with a DAW (which is BEGGING to be touched by definition) which you needn't support by hand so you can control it freely with both hands is a lot more natural than you might think. In fact, it's an utterly logical input method for a DAW, much more so than a keyboard and mouse, which most of us just happened to be used to and are quite proficient at. Try a trackbal if you're not used to one for an hour and then try a Touch screen if you're not used to it, and you'll probably opt for the touch screen...
Sure there's things hardware faders, keyboards and mice are more suited or equipped for than touch screens for and no-one's forcing you to give them up, but overal, a 24" or larger touch screen will absolutely bring a significant improvement in workflow to almost anyone who uses a DAW, I dare say much more so than an 8 fader HUI controller, which are similarly priced.

I'm surprised that people are so reluctant to see that.
If you want to invest the 20 bucks per fader for a crappy hardware controller or 100 bucks a fader for a quality controller, fine, be my guest, but don't kid yourself into thinking just because you have used an iPhone you can be certain turning your computer monitor into a touch screen is not going to bring useful things to the table... You'd be kidding yourself.

N.B. When I say "you" I mean people in general, nay sayers in particular but no one in this thread in particular, certainly not you, pulsar modular.

I'll stand by my statement that redesigning an iMac i 2017 without adding touch is a gross oversight and so is not supporting touch on the OS level.
It's fine if many of you disagree with that, I'm convinced of it and I will be leaving Apple over it. I expect won't be alone.
Carry on.
Old 5th April 2017
  #25
Lives for gear
 

If you are a pro user, ergonomics is very important. Which means, no way in hell you can use a touchscreen every day and not pay the price down the road!

Keep your monitors at a proper viewing distance and at eye level - so your back is straight and aligned. If you're looking down all the time, you're going to develop major neck problems (I know from experience!)
Old 5th April 2017
  #26
Gear Nut
 

My guess is that the reason Apple is so forthcoming about future release plans is that their mid- to high-end desktops are languishing and they know it. Teasing about future models keeps the herd from defecting to WinTel.

I'm on the fence. I'm captive to the Apple ecosystem mostly because it sucks the least for my family. But I'm not wildly happy about it. I wish someone would make the computer I really want.
Old 5th April 2017
  #27
Lives for gear
 
~ufo~'s Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6strings View Post
If you are a pro user, ergonomics is very important. Which means, no way in hell you can use a touchscreen every day and not pay the price down the road!

Keep your monitors at a proper viewing distance and at eye level - so your back is straight and aligned. If you're looking down all the time, you're going to develop major neck problems (I know from experience!)
1. Valid, but you can look down without using your neck, you eyes have muscles too. If anything, my touchscreen has improved my ergonomics, but it does require an adjustment of posture, placement etc.

2. No one is suggesting you need to look down all the time, you can continue to use your normal non touch displays, and/or, have a touch screen on an ergonomic arm, like I have.

3. Similar problems occur with professionals who work on laptops all day, are you suggesting a large touch screen is worse for ergonomics than a laptop?
Ergonomics are very important, I can tell you from experience that my ergonomics with a touch screen on an ergotron sit/stand arm is way better than when I used to be on a console and better than when I was on pro control.

Yes, one must observe proper ergonomics, and there are pitfalls, but those are present with mice, keyboards, laptops, trackpads etc etc etc. One needs to observe ergonomics. Period.

I think you are wrong when you say there's no way in hell, certainly if you are suggesting using a normal display keyboard and mouse is superior to using those in conjunction with a touch screen. You're going to have to explain that to me.
Old 5th April 2017
  #28
Lives for gear
 
~ufo~'s Avatar
I would be extremely surprised if they attempt to build their own Mac Pro CPUs or GPUs.
I don't think it needs any further contemplation from our side.
Old 5th April 2017
  #29
Gear Addict
Gotta agree with ufo. Once you get used to touch screen, then it feels very comfortable and intuitive. I also am surprised that Apple haven't incorporated it yet, while Microsoft have. If you work a lot with the iPad, then going back to a mouse and keyboard does feel clunky and cumbersome. Of course you still need a keyboard, but you can minimise its use. A mouse was always a stopgap solution to how to interact with a screen, moving objects with your fingers is a much more natural process. You can do some stuff with their trackpad, which is good, but it is limited. I say give us the choice..
Old 5th April 2017
  #30
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
Apple has repeatedly said that they won't compromise user experience with a hybrid device. Touch and keyboard/mouse are fundamentally different input methods. Creating and OS (and apps) that do both simply means lack of focus, lack of decisiveness, and a lot more work, only to achieve mediocrity.
That's about 50% speculation I think.

Just because touch input and key/mouse are different categories don't mean they are mutually exclusive. If I'm working in a DAW I have a keyboard and mouse available for input, the output is the screen. If you add touch control then I have a keyboard and a mouse and a screen available for input, the output is the screen. The only difference is that added input device.

Whether or not the various software vendors make good use of touch capability is a different issue completely. Saying that Apple doesn't want to compromise a user experience really only means that either they don't want to spend the resources or they don't trust the users to be intelligent enough to adapt to a proper "hybrid" design. Quite frankly I think both are warranted concerns but there's a difference between those two and only "mediocrity" being possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
The devices today are a little better, but still a compromise.
Does this include this:



Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
Also, remember that Apple devices always get the highest scores in terms of customer satisfaction. Offering a crappier experience would be counterproductive in that regard.
Obviously a less good experience would be counterproductive. I would say however that Apple users are very forgiving of their devices. The very same users that complain over x in a Microsoft device often have a perfect excuse for the same or equal happening on their Apple device, so I don't think that's a necessarily good metric. But yeah, I agree that it's a valid concern for Apple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
Apple does it better, because they do not confuse input methods, and build an OS specifically for touch (iOS).
The long term vision that can be seen in Microsoft's various statements and media actually paints a very different picture in my opinion. I think the future is a hybrid experience that is essentially user-adaptable. The MS vision seems to me to be that I bring a device, as small as a smartphone, and that device brings with it cell connectivity and a 4-7 inch screen etc. But in addition to that it'll connect to "terminals" that can be found in various places, from the home to the workplace to airport lounges, and when it does connect I'll get whatever experience those terminals can provide; if they're a computer monitor and keyboard/mouse then my experience will be a desktop experience with some apps being "upscaled", and if the terminal is a touch terminal it'll adapt to that, and if it's a "laptop" then again - scales accordingly.

That makes complete sense, and if MS can execute that intelligently and reach market penetration then Apple will have to follow.
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