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Studio One Says Latency At 9.28... How Bad Is That? Audio Interfaces
Old 15th January 2017
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

Studio One Says Latency At 12.34 ms / 544 samples ... How Bad Is That?

I have a Tascam UH 7000 plugged into an i7 PC with 32 gigs of ram and a solid state hard drive and another drive for data.

I look at the device in Studio One 3 Pro and it shows latency at 12.34 ms / 544 samples. Set to Lowest Latency.
I am a guitar player and I am wanting to play direct sometimes. The latency is not really noticeable with no plugins, and almost not noticeable with Amplitube, but will it get worse as I build tracks?

I have a few days left to return the Tascam, and I wonder if I should try something else?

EDIT: This is copied from my next post. More accurate info:

OK so this is what Studio says:

Device Block Size: 64 samples
Internal Block Size: 32 samples
Process Precison: Single (32 bit)
Using 8 CPU Cores

Input Latency: 2.09 ms/ 92 samples
Output LAtency: 12.34 ms / 544 samples
Sample Rate: 44.1
Bit Depth: 32

The Tascam interface says 44.1 x 24bits and is set to "lowest latency".

If I go to highest latency S1 shows latency at 29.34 ms / 1294 samples.

I do not see buffer size anywhere. Could you help me with that?
Old 15th January 2017
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Clockwise's Avatar
It depends on the interface's buffer settings.

If you aren't familiar with the term "buffer", think of it as the amount of time you give the CPU to process the audio. The smaller the buffer, the more workload you put on the CPU. In today's standard, audio latency of 9.280 ms at 128 buffer is considered to be a little behind the best interfaces which are capable of giving the latency of around 8.000 ms or even below. But we don't know what buffer size your Tascam UH7000 is set at, so it's impossible to say good or bad. Also reported latency in a DAW isn't necessarily the real-world latency where DA/AD conversion could add 1-2 ms, so use RTL Utility to find out the real figure.
RTL Utility | Oblique Audio

Regards to added latency with plugins, it depends on the plugin algorithm. Most of plugins these days allow zero-latency monitoring, meaning they don't add latency. Some plugins inherently add latency because of their algorithm. Read the manual or contact the developers to find the correct value.
Old 15th January 2017
  #3
Gear Maniac
 

I made a mistake. It is 12.34 ms / 544 samples.

This is what Studio says:

Device Block Size: 64 samples
Internal Block Size: 32 samples
Process Precison: Single (32 bit)
Using 8 CPU Cores

Input Latency: 2.09 ms/ 92 samples
Output LAtency: 12.34 ms / 544 samples
Sample Rate: 44.1
Bit Depth: 32

The Tascam interface says 44.1 x 24bits and is set to "lowest latency".

If I go to highest latency S1 shows latency at 29.34 ms / 1294 samples.

I do not see buffer size anywhere. Could you help me with that?

I also have no idea how to use that software for RTL. Is there a help file somewhere? What cable do I need to patch?

Thanks

Edit: Here is a link to Studio One buffer settings. Apparently the Block setting is the buffer...?

http://support.presonus.com/hc/en-us...o-Device-Setup
Old 15th January 2017
  #4
Gear Maniac
 

With 1 drum track using Superior Drummer, and a second blank track, and a 3rd track with my guitar plugged in, and Amplitude and EZmix running, my CPU is around 30% usage.
Old 15th January 2017
  #5
Lives for gear
 
Clockwise's Avatar
Sorry I don't think I can help you much with that as I don't own Tascam interface nor Studio One 3.

All I can say is the output latency is considerably high and you'd need to investigate what's causing such a high value. Maybe go to Presonus forum?

Regards to RTL Utility, you just need a 1/4" line cable to plug the interface's out to in. Just be careful of the loopback feedback.
Old 15th January 2017
  #6
Lives for gear
 
jlaws's Avatar
12ms is where latency starts to get fairly noticeable, especially if you're listening through speakers, since the distance from them also adds a delay at about one ms for every foot between you and the speakers. 12ms is like being 12 feet away from the amp (plus your distance in feet from your monitors), which you could certainly adjust to, but you will probably notice it, and thus it will change your playing.
Old 16th January 2017
  #7
Lives for gear
 
loopy's Avatar
 

If you use headphones to monitor through your DAW you are definitely going to feel the latency. With monitors it's not as noticeable because of the distance and time the sound takes to actually reach your ears. Compare it to playing live when your amp stack is 10 feet or more away.

As a keyboard player, mostly jazz pianist, anything over 7 ms RTL gives me the feeling I am hitting mush instead of keys.. Hard to explain but it totally throws off my timing.
I could never tolerate 10 ms.


As for the Studio One CPU usage, it's a hot topic on all the Presonus boards and usually causes a war. The best advice I can offer is if you aren't hearing crackles when the meter spikes, don't worry about it.
Old 16th January 2017
  #8
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by loopy View Post
If you use headphones to monitor through your DAW you are definitely going to feel the latency. With monitors it's not as noticeable because of the distance and time the sound takes to actually reach your ears. Compare it to playing live when your amp stack is 10 feet or more away.

As a keyboard player, mostly jazz pianist, anything over 7 ms RTL gives me the feeling I am hitting mush instead of keys.. Hard to explain but it totally throws off my timing.
I could never tolerate 10 ms.


As for the Studio One CPU usage, it's a hot topic on all the Presonus boards and usually causes a war. The best advice I can offer is if you aren't hearing crackles when the meter spikes, don't worry about it.
Are you suggesting Studio One is a CPU hog?
Old 16th January 2017
  #9
Lives for gear
 
loopy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by P99 View Post
Are you suggesting Studio One is a CPU hog?
Short answer:
Yep.

Long answer:
It depends. Go to any pro audio board and you'll see a thread regarding Studio One and CPU utilization. The threads end up causing a war. Bottom line is what is the meter actually showing the user?
And is it comparable to other DAW and what THEIR particular meter is measuring?
IOW, it's apples and oranges.

The best test is for you to run your VSTi and in real life determine are you overloading the system?
Pops and crackles?
Forced to run large buffers in order to avoid overloads, not by the meter, but according to your ears?
That's a sign of CPU overload although it can be 50 other things.
Forget the meter and use your ears.

Try another DAW, Reaper is a good choice, and run the same project, same plugins and see, or should I say listen to what you hear.
Is it better, worse or the same?

That's really the only way to tell if a DAW is a CPU hog on YOUR particular system.

Just my 2 cents.
Old 16th January 2017
  #10
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by loopy View Post
Short answer:
Yep.

Long answer:
It depends. Go to any pro audio board and you'll see a thread regarding Studio One and CPU utilization. The threads end up causing a war. Bottom line is what is the meter actually showing the user?
And is it comparable to other DAW and what THEIR particular meter is measuring?
IOW, it's apples and oranges.

The best test is for you to run your VSTi and in real life determine are you overloading the system?
Pops and crackles?
Forced to run large buffers in order to avoid overloads, not by the meter, but according to your ears?
That's a sign of CPU overload.

Try another DAW, Reaper is a good choice, and run the same project, same plugins and see, or should I say listen to what you hear.
Is it better, worse or the same?



That's really the only way to tell if a DAW is a CPU hog on YOUR particular system.

Just my 2 cents.
I also have Sonar. What's it's reputation?
Old 16th January 2017
  #11
Lives for gear
 
loopy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by P99 View Post
I also have Sonar. What's it's reputation?
Very good reputation from my experience. I've been a Cake user since the prehistoric times when it came on a single diskette and Greg answered the phone for tech support calls. I bailed when they went to the subscription model but mostly because the interface just doesn't connect for me not because the product doesn't work.

Studio One's workflow and interface is IMHO the best on the market, by far.
It's just so intuitive and easy to use. At least for me.
If they can get the CPU spiking issue with VSTi under control it will be perfect for me.
I also use Samplitude and Reaper.
Old 16th January 2017
  #12
Gear Maniac
 

I never got anywhere with Sonar... way too clunky and geeky. S1 has been very good to me.
Old 16th January 2017
  #13
Lives for gear
I have a UH-7000 that I use as a DA in standalone hooked up to an RME UC. The drivers are terrible resulting in high latency. As a guitarist myself who sometimes goes direct for amp sims I would never use the Tascam as a main interface as the latency is too noticeably high but it's great as a DA as it sounds excellent.
Old 16th January 2017
  #14
Gear Nut
 

For reference, I share the following; maybe it will help.

I use a PCIe based MOTU sound card with a similarly specked computer. I can run at 16-buffers (44.1 - 32bit), with a reported 0.80ms each way, for a total of 1.60ms round trip. It takes about 75% of my computer to hold that buffer in place. I can run around six plugins at that buffer setting before I get pops and crackles, enough to run a guitar amp plugin or two, and Compression, Reverb, and Delay as needed for recording comfort of the performers.

I too find it difficult to play through latency above 7/8ms, and with it set at 16 buffers, I hear nothing as it relates to delay or latency. Again, this is the reported latency per Cubase. I think I will look into testing/confirming that number with the “RTL Utility” Clockwise referred to.

That said, I would think (12-plus)ms latency would be a bit on the high side, and for me, too much to feel comfortable investing in that tool.

Hope this helped, good luck.
Old 16th January 2017
  #15
Gear Maniac
 

I am returning the Tascam tomorrow. I may try the Audient id14 or 22. I really like the sound of the Tascam but without an RME to plug it into it isn't very practical. I have my old Firepod as a backup until I figure out what to do. I watched a YouTube video on the RME Babyface, but the reviewer commented on the clunky and confusing interface software/drivers/install/setup. I need some simplicity in the driver interface.
Old 16th January 2017
  #16
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by P99 View Post
...
I watched a YouTube video on the RME Babyface, but the reviewer commented on the clunky and confusing interface software/drivers/install/setup. I need some simplicity in the driver interface.
Don't believe every reviewer, there are lot of pussies out there, who refuse to read manuals or understand basic underlying concepts.. so really doing "unboxing" video instead of review.

Installation is easy, setup.. next, next..
Then if you can handle DAW or mixing console control, you can handle also TotalMix..

It's not hard at all, when you get its basic principles.
Top row are your hardware inputs, second row are software playback channels and third row are output channels.
When you select (highlight) any output channel in the third row, you're doing submix (from any channel at above rows) which will plays via that selected physical output.
Finally one output there is assigned as MAIN output for monitoring, that means you'll pick one output channel pair, where your main speakers are connected to (eg. Analog out 1-2), because this assigned output will be affected by volume control knob at top of Babyface.

That's the simplest summary in couple sentences.
Unless you require some special functionality (software loopback), then all the mixing there affects just what you hear (monitoring), not what's coming to your DAW, this is unaltered by any faders or pans there.

So no need to worry about that, most people typically needs to do that setup once. If you mess it up, there is quick of settings reset via menu commands.. that way you'll have either everything playing to output 1-2 or straight 1:1 routing between physical I/Os and DAW, if you don't want any hardware low latency monitoring at all.

Also in its later versions, you can select what's called DAW operational mode, which essentially disables any submixing, so when you have all the faders in unity, then you'll get very straightforward interface with all channels mapped to DAW inputs and outputs.

It's ASIO driver is no more complicated than any other one, you'll just select it at your DAW, and select some channels for input and output.

So in the sum, it's not really hard or complicated, unless you'll need to do some advanced functionality (like using it as DSP mixing console, router or control it via MIDI etc.).

Babyface is very good performer with very good drivers.

Michal
Old 16th January 2017
  #17
Lives for gear
 

iD22 or iD14 should be around 8ms RTL with 64samples buffer.
But as mentioned before, don't believe what your DAW reports to you.. that's the value, which is reported by interface driver and it's not necessarily 100% accurate.

To do some comparable measurement, pick any analog cable and make loopback from interface output and input (typically TSR-TSR jack).
Set the input and output levels using metering at your DAW.. in most cases, leave outptus wide open (if you're using main outputs and there is volume control).
Play some test tone to those outputs (for instance using S1 tone generator plugin) and adjust input levels at the interface to match it at meters.

Then close your DAW and use RTL utility to get real-world values.
RTL Utility | Oblique Audio
http://www.oblique-audio.com/sites/d...%20Utility.zip

Michal
Old 16th January 2017
  #18
Tascam's UH-700 interface for all the hype it got about using Burl etc,and they still cannot write drivers,the supposedly maximum tolerable limit-[which is ridiculous as everyone has differing needs] is meant to be RTL 9.0ms for Guitar sims etc.

I get a just tolerable 8.7 ms with a N.I.Komplete Audio 6,with crazy good reliability with SONAR,if it were me and I had the bucks I'd go RME Babyface Pro,but an Apogee[apple only basta*** DUET 1st one with breakout box-XLR's etc went for 156.50 AU today[$116.90 USD] on Ebay today.

I was mistakenly sent a US600 in 2011,and that thing wouldn't work at all,well for 5 mins I got sound,but they made great Portastudios,and the FW-1884 + FW-8102 control surface's etc were great-please refresh Tascam!

If I'm forced to pay 3/4 what the Lenovo W540 cost me I want[and should expect I reckon?) 5ms RTL at least. Use This for RTLatency accuracy https://www.oblique-audio.com/free/rtlutility PS I see Michal,aka msmucr has kindly put it here already

Last edited by rksguit; 16th January 2017 at 02:29 PM..
Old 16th January 2017
  #19
Gear Maniac
 

I think the UH 7000 was built more for voice broadcasting than music recording.

I wish someone would make a video on how to measure latency with that software. I don't even know what the cable should be.
Old 16th January 2017
  #20
Quote:
Originally Posted by P99 View Post
I think the UH 7000 was built more for voice broadcasting than music recording.

I wish someone would make a video on how to measure latency with that software. I don't even know what the cable should be.
Just LOOP out dude,it only has to be 1 channel if your of exceedingly,and of and suffer as seriously worrying level of laziness like me.

Just any cable with correct connects IN to OUT a loop so to speak,gawd If I can get it anyone can

Last edited by rksguit; 16th January 2017 at 02:27 PM..
Old 16th January 2017
  #21
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by P99 View Post
I think the UH 7000 was built more for voice broadcasting than music recording.

I wish someone would make a video on how to measure latency with that software. I don't even know what the cable should be.
Cable type depends on particular interface, you're going to measure.

So for instance Firepod has line outputs at TRS jack and inputs at combo connectors also with TRS jacks. You'll need to patch it from output to input.
So in this case, you'd need TRS-TRS jack cable.

UH-7000 has outputs at XLR male connectors and line (not mic) inputs at TRS jacks, so you'd need a cable with female XLR (output side) and TRS jack.

Michal
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