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Tim Cook on Mac Desktop commitment Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 26th January 2017
  #211
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Porto View Post
The problem with the Mac Pro is that it is 3 years old, and still the same price it was when it came out. I'd buy one if it was priced for todays market. I'm not going to pay bleeding edge price for 3 year old technology.
And not only that, the fact that they have gone this long without an update is pretty scary. Remember how long it took for them to refresh the mac pro last time? The current machine at the time had westmere CPUs in it.
Old 26th January 2017
  #212
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zbest56 View Post
Remember how long it took for them to refresh the mac pro last time? The current machine at the time had westmere CPUs in it.
It was 685 days (July 2010 - Jun 2012). This one has been 1,134. So it doesn't look great.
Old 26th January 2017
  #213
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Joe Porto's Avatar
 

Regarding modularity, How hard would it be to design an OS that can task across multiple systems linked via TB? You could make a form factor like the Mini, with a Quad i7. Each Mini would add RAM, CPU, SSD and additional i/o. It would certainly work for audio, as Logic Node and Vienna Ensemble have managed to do it over ethernet.

Rumor has it that the new TB displays will have GPU built in, so this new scalable Mini would not need bleeding edge GPU. But each mini would add the ability to attach additional standard monitors over DisplayPort or HDMI.
Old 26th January 2017
  #214
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Zyzygis's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcoughlan View Post
It was 685 days (July 2010 - Jun 2012). This one has been 1,134. So it doesn't look great.
When Apple was leaner and more hungry the development was more attuned to getting the creative world on board. Now they are fat and IMO have become complacent about developing for the creative market, among other things.

They have developed the quasi religious branding ideas and designed products which tie users in by making software and hardware designed to stymie any attempts to customise or share functionality outside their current product line.

For all their talk about being green and environmentally friendly, their products have some of the shortest shelf lives and fastest obsolescence and it's getting worse.
Old 26th January 2017
  #215
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Crazy4Jazz's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zbest56 View Post
Power is not everything. Its about form factor, and modularity. Remember its a desktop so its going to spend 90% of its lifetime sitting in one place. Therefore it really doesn't make sense for apple to give it the make it smaller and lighter treatment. Now let me clarify something here. The new mac pro is an absolutely genius design from a thermal and acoustic standpoint, that I can give to apple. But by giving it the smaller treatment they have sacrificed modularity. The old tower mac pro was very modular. And they made the experience of opening, upgrading, and customizing even more seamless and enjoyable than it is on your average PC. That was a godsend for its users. Because CPU and RAM is not everything, and there are so many different use cases that can be classified as "pro" its very important that these people have the option to tailor their machines to their needs. For example, a video editor using the adobe suite would up until recently require an Nvidia GPU for CUDA acceleration. Easy upgrade with the tower, but with the trash can its another thousand dollars for a PCIe cage. Storage is the same deal. You can't just load it up with drives, you have to pay out the wazoo for a thunderbolt enclosure or a NAS. All this apple says to make it "easier to use." Yes, but who on earth asked for it to be easier? People who have specific uses know how to make their computers work for said uses. We don't need to be babied through it. Its making it harder more than its making it easier.
Also lets say we don't need 12 cores. I have a 6700k in my current machine and it is more than enough. I can get that CPU in a mac. But I ONLY have the option of paying for an expensive 5k display and an expensive laptop grade GPU to go with it. A GPU that is barely powerful enough to drive the display with any dignity let alone powerful enough for my personal uses. So once again its back to the PCIe enclosure with cost over twice as much as my GTX1070 which I would put into it. Building a PC has always been simple. Its a box and everything you need goes inside it. The tower mac pro used to be a deluxe version of that. Now you have to shell out more money for the infastructure to support upgrades and customization than you do on the actual upgrades themselves.
And to answer your question on what defines the pro community, there are many answers as there are many use cases. CAD design, animation, video editing, audio recording, etc. just to name a few. Each one has wildly different needs. So a pro user can be defined as a power user with a specific workload requiring a specific set of hardware in order to accomplish that workload.
Yes, I see your point.
Old 26th January 2017
  #216
Gear Addict
 

Someone posted on MR that according to Intel documents the 2013 Mac Pro 4-core and six-core CPUs had to be ordered last September and the last of these will be delivered in early March 2017. So this seems to at least put a rough time limit on how much longer Apple can continue to sell the current Mac Pro line.

It's amazing that Apple is still selling a computer with soon to be discontinued CPUs for top dollar.
Old 26th January 2017
  #217
Tui
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Tui's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastlanephil View Post
It's amazing that Apple is still selling a computer with soon to be discontinued CPUs for top dollar.
How many machines are actually being sold..? Can't be too many, judging from the commentary on GS alone.

The MPs are essentially designed as graphics and video editing machines, however, since they are not upgradeable, they're severely limited in this segment of the market, too.

Whoever signed off on this design has no clue what a "pro" is, or genuinely doesn't care.
Old 26th January 2017
  #218
What I don't understand is that with all the buckets of cash Apple has why can't they just throw a bit of money at this and at least update their MacPro's every year or two with new CPU's, Ram etc. 13 year olds are building PC's every day - how hard can it be to upgrade these MacPros when you have thousands of engineers? It's bizarre.
Old 26th January 2017
  #219
Tui
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Tui's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverb View Post
... how hard can it be to upgrade these MacPros when you have thousands of engineers? It's bizarre.
I keep asking myself the same question. Apple has more cash lying around than the US government, literally. Think about that for a moment... There is practically nothing they can't buy or make happen. They should be able to hire enough engineers to rewrite Logic in a couple of weeks and design a new Mac Pro every month, without breaking a sweat. Since Apple is not doing any of these things, it suggests to me that their primary goal is *not* making great, cutting-edge products, but making tons and tons of money.
Old 26th January 2017
  #220
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
How many machines are actually being sold..? Can't be too many, judging from the commentary on GS alone.

The MPs are essentially designed as graphics and video editing machines, however, since they are not upgradeable, they're severely limited in this segment of the market, too.

Whoever signed off on this design has no clue what a "pro" is, or genuinely doesn't care.
At the same time, at least where I work, you have lots of young folks that now want to order iMacs instead of the standard company PC, because it works like their personal MacBooks and iPads. The company now believes that the Macs are needed, because everyone complains for them. New employees come in and demand Macs. Mind you these people are barely using Adobe, it's mostly PC related Office stuff.

It must feel good for them to see businesses buying iMacs in bulk.

Our company is now lined with iMacs, and that is something that didn't happen a few years ago. We actually have a separate Mac IT team now. In an environment like this, that is unheard of. And it is a nightmare for them, but these are NOT Mac power users. (I'm not saying they would be any better on a PC but IT dept is used to the average PC literacy of normal users).
Old 26th January 2017
  #221
Tui
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Tui's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by smoke View Post
... but these are NOT Mac power users.
Exactly. You put your finger on it.

Current Macs are great for casual use and light office work, no doubt. The iMac might even be labelled good value, all things considered.
Old 26th January 2017
  #222
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Mike O's Avatar
 

This report was not from and Apple unfriendly source: Mac sales declined nearly 10% last year as Lenovo, Dell and others gained ground. So no longer "the biggest manufacturer of PCs". What will the new marketing metric be? Maybe 2017 will be a better year in terms of market growth.

Quoting the referenced article:

"It’s not surprising that Mac sales dropped for Apple in 2016 as they experienced their first year over year sales decline since 2001. What is interesting, however, is that as Mac sales dropped roughly 10% and personal computers overall dropped 5.7% for the year, the top four leaders in the market all saw growth as Apple was pushed to number five.

Although Mac sales were up in Q4 2016 compared to Q4 2015, an analyst note today from Bloomberg’s Anand Srinivasan and Wei Mok has revealed Apple has dropped to the fifth largest PC vendor, with ASUS (ASUSTeK) overtaking fourth place. The top four vendors are now Lenovo, HP, Dell, and ASUS.

While the top four vendors all saw growth in large part due to Apple’s weak year, Dell saw the most growth at just over 10%."
Old 26th January 2017
  #223
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
Since Apple is not doing any of these things, it suggests to me that their primary goal is *not* making great, cutting-edge products, but making tons and tons of money.
This is exactly what I'm saying. Apple has had extremely loyal users from our community for almost as long as they have been around. And suddenly they make machines that give them what they need. Because now its about money rather than making solid machines for creatives.
Old 27th January 2017
  #224
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
I keep asking myself the same question. Apple has more cash lying around than the US government, literally. Think about that for a moment... There is practically nothing they can't buy or make happen. They should be able to hire enough engineers to rewrite Logic in a couple of weeks and design a new Mac Pro every month, without breaking a sweat. Since Apple is not doing any of these things, it suggests to me that their primary goal is *not* making great, cutting-edge products, but making tons and tons of money.
Why would they do a dumb thing like that? It's called Capitalism. Embrace it.

The reason "Apple has more cash lying around than the US government", is because the went away from the "Pro Customer".
Old 27th January 2017
  #225
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Mike O's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyA View Post
Why would they do a dumb thing like that? It's called Capitalism. Embrace it.

The reason "Apple has more cash lying around than the US government", is because the went away from the "Pro Customer".
A false dichotomy. Apple could easily have designed/refreshed a desktop for pros for relative pocket change. The move to consumer products does not mean they had to give up a smaller, but profitable market.

Of course prior to their consumer orientation they nearly went bankrupt, so one does have to give them credit where due.
Old 27th January 2017
  #226
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyA View Post
Why would they do a dumb thing like that? It's called Capitalism. Embrace it.

The reason "Apple has more cash lying around than the US government", is because the went away from the "Pro Customer".
No one is saying Apple isn't doing the right things to make as much money as possible. They're saying that sucks. There's a difference.

For the record, I'm guessing most of the music you love would never have even been recorded if the people involved in making it decided to take your advice and embrace capital C Capitalism, so maybe think twice about that line of argument, too.
Old 27th January 2017
  #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norbury brook View Post
with a mac pro you're paying for an extra, expensive GFX card that is of no use to a DAW. Also they're forcing you into what you can or cannot use regarding peripherals like hard disks, PCIe cards etc

A lot of people were quite happy with PCie and internal drives all in a single enclosure. Now they're being forced to make a decision about their future based on what Apple have decided is the way forward with a tiny machine that needs external peripherals.

Some are not happy with this and I can see why.


MC
It true re not needing an expensive graphics card, I've built a hackintosh around x99 and 6800k chip and my graphics card is a Nvidia 710 silent edition (heat sink, no fans) about $100 Australian dollars, so for $3000 I was able to build a 6core, 32gb with a 512gb ssd that can smoke most of the MacPros available. Apple could easily make a great computer around the new MacPro design and have graphic option as bto option and bring down the cost significantly.

As for PCIe options they could have some PCIe expansion chassis that could plug in for any pro PCIe needed, that way you could upgrade the MacPro box more regularly
Old 27th January 2017
  #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcoughlan View Post
No one is saying Apple isn't doing the right things to make as much money as possible.
I would say exactly that. They could have a much bigger market share if they would have Macs that appeal to more users.
Old 27th January 2017
  #229
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue monk View Post
I would say exactly that. They could have a much bigger market share if they would have Macs that appeal to more users.
So? Much bigger doesn't really matter. There are, at max, 10 million potential new Mac Pro users out there. And that's being super, super generous.

Now think of the world population: 7 billion. And think of all the products they make for those 7 billion: iPhones and Watches and Tablets and iMacs. The R&D is less demanding and the margins are better. It's a mass vs. niche market. There's no contest when it comes to the bottom line.

The iPod saved Apple, not the G4...
Old 27th January 2017
  #230
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pulsar modular's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcoughlan View Post
So? Much bigger doesn't really matter. There are, at max, 10 million potential new Mac Pro users out there. And that's being super, super generous.

Now think of the world population: 7 billion. And think of all the products they make for those 7 billion: iPhones and Watches and Tablets and iMacs. The R&D is less demanding and the margins are better. It's a mass vs. niche market. There's no contest when it comes to the bottom line.

The iPod saved Apple, not the G4...
They've been very slow to refresh, basically neglecting Mac products for a few years, and this year they have started to lose market share. It's an ecosystem of sorts, take away the Macs and the rest will eventually fail IMO.
Old 27th January 2017
  #231
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pulsar modular View Post
They've been very slow to refresh, basically neglecting Mac products for a few years, and this year they have started to lose market share. It's an ecosystem of sorts, take away the Macs and the rest will eventually fail IMO.


Again, I say... So? They lost PC market share and yet, their stock still continues to rise because most people agree there's little value in traditional PC manufacturing and infinitely more in mobile / services. Which is where Apple is investing.

I definitely agree that Macs supplement the ecosystem. And I think they agree, too, but that's what the iMac and MacBooks are for. Mac Pro users will never have a significant impact on the global ecosystem. It's just way too niche.

Remember that by virtue of the fact that you're posting here on Gearslutz, you're not part of Apple's target demographic. Most people who buy Macs have no idea about release dates and CPUs etc. They just walk into the Apple store and pick up the laptop or iMac or tablet or phone that looks like it'll work for them.

That's who Apple wants to sell to these days.
Old 27th January 2017
  #232
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcoughlan View Post
Remember that by virtue of the fact that you're posting here on Gearslutz, you're not part of Apple's target demographic. Most people who buy Macs have no idea about release dates and CPUs etc. They just walk into the Apple store and pick up the laptop or iMac or tablet or phone that looks like it'll work for them.

That's who Apple wants to sell to these days.
The fact that this is what apple has turned into, is sad if you ask me.
Old 27th January 2017
  #233
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcoughlan View Post
Remember that by virtue of the fact that you're posting here on Gearslutz, you're not part of Apple's target demographic. Most people who buy Macs have no idea about release dates and CPUs etc. They just walk into the Apple store and pick up the laptop or iMac or tablet or phone that looks like it'll work for them.

That's who Apple wants to sell to these days.
That's fine for Apple, but we're here because we want the best computer for our non-target demographic use.
Old 27th January 2017
  #234
Tui
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Tui's Avatar
Is it just me, or has there been a surge recently in posts that suggest we shouldn't be discussing the very subjects gearslutz was created to discuss..? What is going on here, are we the target of deliberate trolls? It's not funny anymore.
Old 27th January 2017
  #235
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Mike O's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
Is it just me, or has there been a surge recently in posts that suggest we shouldn't be discussing the very subjects gearslutz was created to discuss..? What is going on here, are we the target of deliberate trolls? It's not funny anymore.
A simple continuation of "defend at all costs". Again, most of us understand how Apple makes it's money now and why they continue to invest there. No problem with that.

But I can see no rational reason for them to not invest a (relative) pittance to deliver tools that appeal to professionals.

Many people would consider such an effort 'smart marketing', targeted at retaining bragging rights for creatives (as well as others). Why give cede control of a market that you arguably created when you have virtually unlimited resources?

Maybe they have a rabbit up their sleeve? We'll soon see what Cook delivers with his claim of (now) having desktops on their roadmap that appeal. This of course AFTER his much publicized claim that the desktop was dead.
Old 27th January 2017
  #236
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kangking View Post
The fact that this is what apple has turned into, is sad if you ask me.
I'm with you, I think it's really sad. Especially considering it was the devoted users that even kept them afloat during the lean years. To forget about them seems to be forgetting about a major part of the history of the company.

Quote:
Originally Posted by claurence View Post
That's fine for Apple, but we're here because we want the best computer for our non-target demographic use.
As you should be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
Is it just me, or has there been a surge recently in posts that suggest we shouldn't be discussing the very subjects gearslutz was created to discuss..? What is going on here, are we the target of deliberate trolls? It's not funny anymore.
If you're referencing my posts, I'm not saying this shouldn't be discussed at all. I am saying people need to be rational about why it appears Apple is distancing themselves from higher end Mac development. I don't agree with the decision, and am annoyed with it (I waited to upgrade for over a year), but for people to act like Apple executives are inept and not seeing a painfully obvious financial opportunity is a little much. Especially when the current CEO is known for maximizing exactly those types of revenue opportunities.

My last gasp of hope which is that there was some massive internal goofup that we're not hearing about. Like they sent all their engineers to work on the car at the expense of everything else, or they're waiting on a supplier, or they're preparing an in-house chip/GPU solution that will make us all wonder why we ever doubted them in the first place. But I lose a little more faith with every passing day.
Old 27th January 2017
  #237
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... meanwhile at the coalface real pros are making money using their trashcans with 128G RAM and whatever frequency/core combination E5 works best for them
Old 27th January 2017
  #238
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcoughlan View Post
So? Much bigger doesn't really matter. There are, at max, 10 million potential new Mac Pro users out there. And that's being super, super generous.

Now think of the world population: 7 billion. And think of all the products they make for those 7 billion: iPhones and Watches and Tablets and iMacs. The R&D is less demanding and the margins are better. It's a mass vs. niche market. There's no contest when it comes to the bottom line.

The iPod saved Apple, not the G4...
Your view to me seem to resemble a lot the way that Apple executives see it. And that, in my estimation, is exactly the problem why Apple does not have 30% to 40% market share.
In your idea of what could be, you are very rooted in what the current line-up of Mac is.
For example your idea of the Mac Pro assumes that it is supposed to be a Xeon-based computer in this current cylindrical small enclosure. Of course that has a cost.
It would also be a possibility for Apple to license a standard motherboard from Gigabyte and put it into a PC case that has a non-ugly design. You could get an i7 8-core for a reasonable price.
We don't have to discuss wether this is likely going to happen. My point is merely that it is a product that Apple could produce if they wanted.

The iMac and Mac mini are supposed to address the consumer/prosumer market.
But in reality 90% of users in that market would reject the idea of buying one of these.
Apple has a history of cutting their market impact short by being invested in product philosophies that make them put out product which are not working for most potential users. That's true also for the original 1984 MacIntosh.

Again, I have no intention discussion wether we will see a change, but saying that Apple does everything right to make as much money from the Mac as possible, to me seems incorrect. I think it's more accurate to say they are still self-sabotaging themselves like they have been since the 1980ies.
They just doing enough things right, that it is possible not to see it. But they could be doing a lot better.
Old 27th January 2017
  #239
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zephonic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcoughlan View Post
My last gasp of hope which is that there was some massive internal goofup that we're not hearing about. Like they sent all their engineers to work on the car at the expense of everything else, or they're waiting on a supplier, or they're preparing an in-house chip/GPU solution that will make us all wonder why we ever doubted them in the first place.
It's a conflation of everything you just mentioned. And most of it has been widely reported on.

The sky is not falling, but yeah, Macs are no longer top priority at Apple. They'll keep on making and selling them, but x86 has plateau'd anyway in terms of innovation so a re-tar-ding update cycle really isn't a big deal, objectively.
Most of the improvements are about reducing power consumption and integrating GPU's. Beyond that, a 2017 CPU isn't substantially faster than a 2012.

Last edited by zephonic; 27th January 2017 at 09:23 PM.. Reason: re-tar-ding was blanked out?!?
Old 27th January 2017
  #240
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue monk View Post
Your view to me seem to resemble a lot the way that Apple executives see it. And that, in my estimation, is exactly the problem why Apple does not have 30% to 40% market share.
Considering that's a 10% higher market share than any computer manufacturer has ever held in the modern era, and 4x what Apple currently has, you should probably go ahead and send your ideas to Cupertino...

It's very easy to sit back and say "there's room for improvement" or come up with fantastic computers that match the needs of you and your friends, but I promise you there are a ton of extremely intelligent people looking at this every day, and it's just not that simple.
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