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Tim Cook on Mac Desktop commitment Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 4th November 2018
  #2071
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JSt0rm's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post
Hardware isn't the sole motivator for using a Mac. If it was, Apple would frequently find themselves with more serious challenges from other contenders since the major functional components are readily available to others as well. In practice, the operating system is a huge part of what appeals to me.

Apple's move to Intel hardware invites these kinds of comparisons, which is why I'm inclined to believe that Apple will move to their own CPU designs as soon as it's practical to do so. I doubt it would start with the Pro lineup because third party software will need more time than Apple's own offerings, but I wouldn't be shocked if the basic MacBook moved to an A-series variant sometime in 2020.
I wasnt talking about hardware with that statement. I was talking about maintaining shortcuts learned over 60k hours of use.
Old 4th November 2018
  #2072
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Right. That's this one: Intel® Core™ i7-8700B Processor. It's not the same as in the MacBook Pros though.

It would of course be silly of Apple to put a desktop processor into the Mini just because, but it's totally valid and justified to want a dedicated desktop CPU here. Maybe it's once again the form factor that Apple allows limiting the potential performance. Why isn't the i9 in the Mini, if it's good enough for the MacBook Pro?

If you want to compare this one to the Intel CPUs in the current fastest MacBook Pros, the i7-8850H and the i9-8950HK look here: i7-8850H, i9-8950HK & i7-8700B compared.
They start with the appearance. They made a up-to-date colour change. And then the engineers did as much they could within that enclosure. They should start with what the computer is going to do. Im not sure what apple are aiming, but their message to the customers is this is fast machine. It is not, it does not have intel top "mainstream" desktop processor. I9-9900K is intel response to AMD for the best price/performance desktop. But it wont fit in to a tiny box. Apple box is so small that they can not have 4 ram slots. (Half of the bandwith) It it too little for a 6 core cpu, the memory is the bottle neck. So a 8 core is out of the scope. And you need bigger area to get out the heat without a fan running at 10000 rpm. But the computer must be cute. They have learned nothing from the last mac pro failure, so it does not looking to promising for the 2019 mac pro. I seriously expected new mini should be a game changer. It wasn't, but it has a new colour.
Old 4th November 2018
  #2073
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stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSt0rm View Post
I was talking about maintaining shortcuts learned over 60k hours of use.

On a bizarre side note, Apple changed the keyboard shortcut for 'Make Alias' in Mojave. I only noticed it because the instinctive keyboard stroke, with motor memory trained for what feels like centuries, suddenly stopped working.
Old 4th November 2018
  #2074
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Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
On a bizarre side note, Apple changed the keyboard shortcut for 'Make Alias' in Mojave.
That was a welcome change for me, so I wonder if I’m not alone. It used to happen all the time: I’d hit Conmand+L to select the URL bar in Safari only to realize that focus was actually on the desktop and I’ve made an alias to something random...
Old 4th November 2018
  #2075
Gear Addict
 
Dan Eriksson's Avatar
Nothing functionally useful but when did they stop the cool "animations in slow motion" effect?
The shift key doesn't work anymore.
Old 4th November 2018
  #2076
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
I think your timeline is way off for the laptops (and the Mini for that matter). Look at the benchmark numbers for the A12X in the new iPad Pro. Single core scores are even with the mid-range i7-based 2018 MBP. Multi-core scores are close. It's not going to take 5 years. Everything they've been building in their development tools says they're moving this way and now, not later. A-series chips will be in mobile Macs far sooner than 5 years.
Bloomberg article.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
Old 4th November 2018
  #2077
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSt0rm View Post
I bought the z4.

The z workstations have bios settings to use apple shortcuts. They know us.
You've reviewed the z4 somewhere? Please do, if you haven't already.
Old 4th November 2018
  #2078
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JSt0rm's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
You've reviewed the z4 somewhere? Please do, if you haven't already.
I’ll have it Thursday.
Old 4th November 2018
  #2079
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
I think your timeline is way off for the laptops (and the Mini for that matter). Look at the benchmark numbers for the A12X in the new iPad Pro. Single core scores are even with the mid-range i7-based 2018 MBP. Multi-core scores are close. It's not going to take 5 years. Everything they've been building in their development tools says they're moving this way and now, not later. A-series chips will be in mobile Macs far sooner than 5 years.
I think you're totally underestimating the difficulties in software migration. I'm counting with that.

What I could see is iOS competing directly with macOS on iOS computer-form hardware. That would bring with it a whole bag of new difficulties and would attempt to solve the problem by side-stepping those developers not wanting to go into iOS development.

Even if this happened it would take at least 5 years for macOS software needs to taper off.
You'd also need to add iOS development into iOS itself. Exactly the kind of merging Tim has said Apple researched and said no to. Not that he and others couldn't change their minds.

While I do believe software will grow away from specific hardware into functions that can be tapped everywhere, I think the Mac will hang on. But a major fail building something useful in 2019 could put an end to the pro markets for sure. It could be argued they already lost it, but as Apple could keep making new stellar Mac Pros at large losses every single year if they choose to, my guess is it's not over at all. The only consisting is change.
Old 4th November 2018
  #2080
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastlanephil View Post
Bloomberg article.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
Yes, but who said that Apple isn't doing this? They are doing this and surely 50+ other advanced projects that we will never see. If the suggested move is made it will be wittingly orchestrated .
Old 5th November 2018
  #2081
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
I think you're totally underestimating the difficulties in software migration. I'm counting with that.
I disagree based on history. They've already done it twice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
What I could see is iOS competing directly with macOS on iOS computer-form hardware. That would bring with it a whole bag of new difficulties and would attempt to solve the problem by side-stepping those developers not wanting to go into iOS development.
I don't understand what you're trying to get at here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Even if this happened it would take at least 5 years for macOS software needs to taper off.
You'd also need to add iOS development into iOS itself. Exactly the kind of merging Tim has said Apple researched and said no to. Not that he and others couldn't change their minds.
Why on Earth would there be a requirement to do iOS development on iOS itself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
While I do believe software will grow away from specific hardware into functions that can be tapped everywhere, I think the Mac will hang on. But a major fail building something useful in 2019 could put an end to the pro markets for sure. It could be argued they already lost it, but as Apple could keep making new stellar Mac Pros at large losses every single year if they choose to, my guess is it's not over at all. The only consisting is change.
Not sure it could be argued they've lost the pro market. There are tons of professionals still using Macs for pro audio and video. There are definitely people out there who don't have the time to waste arguing over this crap in forums. They just care that something works and the expense isn't in new hardware, it's in learning new software. That part is going to keep people on a platform (and is right now).
Old 5th November 2018
  #2082
Tui
Gear Guru
 
Tui's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post
That was a welcome change for me, so I wonder if I’m not alone. It used to happen all the time: I’d hit Conmand+L to select the URL bar in Safari only to realize that focus was actually on the desktop and I’ve made an alias to something random...
You can change the shortcut to anything you want. Under System Preferences/Keyboard/Shortcuts/App Shortcuts, you can create a new command and call it "Make Alias".
Old 5th November 2018
  #2083
Lives for gear
 
Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
You can change the shortcut to anything you want. Under System Preferences/Keyboard/Shortcuts/App Shortcuts, you can create a new command and call it "Make Alias".
Definitely a handy facility, but one that I make very sparing use of. I spend enough time on different machines or advising others that being used to a highly customized environment is something of a problem. In any case, I'm glad that with Mojave the default is now Command+Control+A and I'm quite unlikely to trip over it.
Old 5th November 2018
  #2084
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stratology's Avatar
 

The Finder is older than Safari, so if the intention was to avoid the two interfering, the logical choice would be to change it in Safari.
Old 5th November 2018
  #2085
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
I disagree based on history. They've already done it twice.
The move to intel made things easier for programmers instead of harder though.
Old 5th November 2018
  #2086
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
I disagree based on history. They've already done it twice.
That's a strong point. But I'm not at all convinced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
I don't understand what you're trying to get at here.
I think that instead of convincing existing macOS/Mac platform developers to migrate their existing macOS code to iOS, or a merged "maiOS", they could feel the group already doing iOS development within the most vital kinds of software —integral to the success of Macs —can be motivated to follow them into more computer-like machines of the future. In other words abandoning those doing macOS development that are not that interested to migrate.

Handling developers may not be Apple's forte, but it would appear they are potentially somewhat better than many others. Yes, I understand a macOS on Arm is what is suggested and I don't really believe in merging, but this is often implied with this recurring story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
Why on Earth would there be a requirement to do iOS development on iOS itself?
.
If there's no macOS what would you develop on? Of course any abandonment of a macoS would be further down the line and there's the possibility that there would be a macOS for Arm computers co-existing with Intel, which is what I think you believe? Could be.

The 2 previous OS X code migrations —dropping PPC and moving to 64bit — have indeed been handled very well for the most part, but it has not been without squirms and serious issues. Even now, with Intel as the sole option, major OS updates cause havoc for larger parts of the user base. It's a can of worms to go macOS on Arm within 2 years as the Bloomberg article seem to suggest. Which might be a sign in itself.

I realize I'm mostly speculating here when I try to make sense of all of this. If I may take the Bloomberg article perspective and expand on that a bit: using Arm as main CPUs and creating modular designs, which we know Apple said the Mac Pro will be, that might be an important step of getting computer level power out of the box and into your on site network. That may be a 10+ year evolution though.

Last edited by Mikael B; 5th November 2018 at 03:26 PM..
Old 5th November 2018
  #2087
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsrono View Post
First benchmarks for the new mini showing up online: First Mac mini 2018 benchmarks suggest Mac Pro speeds, unlike MacBook Air | VentureBeat

More details in the article of course.
I wonder wether that tells something about the speed of the Mini or the "speed" of the nMP. That IS an old box, and given that Geekbench is not just CPU power measurement but also takes RAM speed & bandwidth as well as that from SSDs into account, it is obvious that a system which is 4 generations younger becomes quite competitive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
Unless the benchmark tool is wrong the i7 version at least is a mobile chip. 8700B
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastlanephil View Post
The exact words were. “And these aren’t mobile parts. No! These are higher power eighth generation CPUs with faster graphics too.”
Both the 8700 and 8700B have the same performance specs, the B model just has a mobile socket and slightly different features which are not of our interest, most likely.
Old 6th November 2018
  #2088
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
If there's no macOS what would you develop on? Of course any abandonment of a macoS would be further down the line and there's the possibility that there would be a macOS for Arm computers co-existing with Intel, which is what I think you believe? Could be.
I don't see any way around that until they can get one of their own chips to be faster than the Intel alternatives on the desktop. When they did 68k to PPC they had fat binaries. When they did PPC to Intel they had Universal binaries. They could just as easily do the same thing in this situation. And I just dont see MacOS going away, at least not within a decade.
Old 10th November 2018
  #2089
Gear Maniac
On that switch to their own processors...a bit of interesting speculation...

The Mac’s transition to Apple processors is happening sooner than you think | Macworld
Old 10th November 2018
  #2090
TNM
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
On that switch to their own processors...a bit of interesting speculation...

The Mac’s transition to Apple processors is happening sooner than you think | Macworld
well if that happens, i'm out.. and I think a lot of our plugin devs will say screw you too Apple.

Hopefully the windows FLS slot issue will be fixed by then, and sayonara Apple.
Old 10th November 2018
  #2091
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zephonic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNM View Post
well if that happens, i'm out.. and I think a lot of our plugin devs will say screw you too Apple.

Hopefully the windows FLS slot issue will be fixed by then, and sayonara Apple.
Why?

As long as everything works the same, what’s the fuss? Unless you think it would be another Carbon-like disaster, but given how iOS is basically MacOS wthout a file system, I really don’t foresee any problems with porting over software. It should be nothing like the switch from Classic to OSX, or even PowerPC to Intel.


I’d like to see them do it, sayonara x86. Good riddance.
Old 10th November 2018
  #2092
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNM View Post
well if that happens, i'm out.. and I think a lot of our plugin devs will say screw you too Apple.
Only if this would mean you'd need to develop in another way. That's far from certain at this point. It's the back compatibility that would worry me. Saying what you suggest to a substantial part of your potential user base would seem go against the interest of most developers.

Maybe we should notice that the ARMs are already present in the latest Macs, if in a supporting role, and these are not alone. Maybe there will be a long period of multiprocessor Macs to ease a possible transition?
Old 10th November 2018
  #2093
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by zephonic View Post
Why?

As long as everything works the same, what’s the fuss? Unless you think it would be another Carbon-like disaster, but given how iOS is basically MacOS wthout a file system, I really don’t foresee any problems with porting over software. It should be nothing like the switch from Classic to OSX, or even PowerPC to Intel.


I’d like to see them do it, sayonara x86. Good riddance.
The problem with IOS devices is that you dont really own them. You do not have access to the system. Arm cpu's big advantage is their power efficiency. This is the reason it is used on battery powered devices. It would be great for laptops, and there are already laptops with arm that is running linux. For a studio computer the power-consumption is not of importance. What is of importance is floating-point and IO capacity. Arm are not good any of them. This is or the arm of today. Apple might doing huge changes to the cpus, but it is still a risc cpu. And the current architecture do not scale very well. Intel has their QPI and it seems to scale fairly well in to 128 cores. Arm not so much, and stops at about 8. Most of this is due to the very powerful cache system used on intel. It is powerful, and a power consumer. To match up with Intel in floating point number crunching you need about 8 arms for one intel core. And that is under ideal conditions. Current daw software does not scale that well on multi core's so it would need a major redesign of most of the software we use today. We might get there, but not with current software technology. For sure Apple would like to get independent from intel but it wont come easy, apple has the money. How many billions of dollar is it worth to be independent of intel?
Old 10th November 2018
  #2094
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zephonic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
The problem with IOS devices is that you dont really own them. You do not have access to the system. Arm cpu's big advantage is their power efficiency. This is the reason it is used on battery powered devices. It would be great for laptops, and there are already laptops with arm that is running linux. For a studio computer the power-consumption is not of importance. What is of importance is floating-point and IO capacity. Arm are not good any of them. This is or the arm of today. Apple might doing huge changes to the cpus, but it is still a risc cpu. And the current architecture do not scale very well. Intel has their QPI and it seems to scale fairly well in to 128 cores. Arm not so much, and stops at about 8. Most of this is due to the very powerful cache system used on intel. It is powerful, and a power consumer. To match up with Intel in floating point number crunching you need about 8 arms for one intel core. And that is under ideal conditions. Current daw software does not scale that well on multi core's so it would need a major redesign of most of the software we use today. We might get there, but not with current software technology. For sure Apple would like to get independent from intel but it wont come easy, apple has the money. How many billions of dollar is it worth to be independent of intel?

I'm not sure what your point is?

Just to reiterate, my thinking is: if Apple's A12 can deliver this much performance at what is it, 5W? I'd be very interested to see what they can achieve when there are no restrictions on TDP.

It wouldn't even have to be ARM, necessarily. Maybe they are working on a different class of processor altogether, with the advantages of x86 (and even PPC) but none of the legacy cruft.

I'm not even saying Intel can't do this, or that Apple should ditch them. I'm just saying x86 plateau'd years ago and there's not a lot of room left for advancement. Think about it, x86 was introduced in 1978. Forty years ago. Intel tried to replace it with Itanium, but it has been unsuccessful due to market inertia.

I'd love to see Apple using their in-house expertise and financial muscle to develop a truly modern non-mobile processor.
Old 11th November 2018
  #2095
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Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
For a studio computer the power-consumption is not of importance. What is of importance is floating-point and IO capacity. Arm are not good any of them.
The current A12X Apple uses in the new iPad Pro is very competitive with Intel CPUs in benchmarks ranging from integer to floating point to I/O.

Quote:
Intel has their QPI and it seems to scale fairly well in to 128 cores. Arm not so much, and stops at about 8.
Once we see chips designed for something other than a battery powered handheld device that kind of scaling might be meaningful. Having more than 8 cores in a phone or tablet starts to look like overkill at this point.

Quote:
To match up with Intel in floating point number crunching you need about 8 arms for one intel core.
Nonsense. Single core floating point in the A12X is about 60% of the performance of single core floating point in the i9-8950HK while running at a total power consumption around 10% of the Intel part. In a system with active cooling and a larger battery it's not unreasonable to assume it would do significantly better still.

It's 100% realistic to assume they could make the switch, though I'd still bet on the lower end devices coming first to give developers time to make ARM versions of their software available. The development workflow is guaranteed to be straightforward since the same compiler and tools are already used to target x86-64 and arm-v8 to support macOS and iOS devices today. The only developers who might plausibly have a lot of work in front of them are those with hand-optimized assembly.
Old 11th November 2018
  #2096
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ponzi's Avatar
I can see this as a plausible scenario. I recall back in 2001, apple forced people to go from mac os to osx--fresh start, all new programs had to be purchased. Maybe there were some transition compatibility tools, I wasn't a mac user back then, so don't recall the details--but I remember the wailing and gnashing of mac user's teeth. We all know about the switch to intel chips. A compatibility layer made the transition less painful. I had a g4/5 mac mini at the time.

Its easy for me to see the economies of scale work for apple with their phones--and maybe laptops, but is it really that easy and cheap to build an 8700-level cpu and sell it in the limited quantities apple is currently moving with their mac pro product --well line is too strong a word, but the trash can and imac pro anyway.

I guess if nothing else, it will put paid to hackintosh building, but I imagine anyone who has one can continue to use it with their version of logic as is for as many years as they feel like.

If nothing else, this makes me feel better about my decision to go with windows a year or two ago--the new mini is cute, but it further reinforces my personal prediction that if/when apple comes up with a new mac pro, its going to be on the wrong side of the value equation--for me at least.
Old 11th November 2018
  #2097
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post

If nothing else, this makes me feel better about my decision to go with windows a year or two ago--the new mini is cute, but it further reinforces my personal prediction that if/when apple comes up with a new mac pro, its going to be on the wrong side of the value equation--for me at least.
I think you mean "comes out with" or you don't understand Apple hardware design cycles. They've "come up" with the gist of it since some time and refinement and sourcing is where they are now. I don't think ARM has anything to do with this coming model, except for co-processing. We don't know much about the future Mac Pro at this point, except modular abilities.

Can anyone imagine a new potentially powerful Mac Pro in 2019 not being able to run your $10.000 worth of recently updated software on it?

I remember pitting the G5 (PowerPC) against a 4 years later Intel Eight-core Mac Pro and the G5 beating it on rendering in FCP because the software wasn't using the additional cores and some code was said to be emulated from PPC. Apple would strive to replicate that as their new flagship? If they don't go for twice as fast as anything else, what's the point making a switch?

If modular means distributed computing and multiprocessors, rather than just multicores, and all software developers would have to do in order to utilize the new hardware would be to add a compile switch, then Arm could be a success. But such a new model of computing would have to be alluring, stellar and more or less crush the competition in a convincing way.
Old 11th November 2018
  #2098
TNM
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by zephonic View Post
Why?

As long as everything works the same, what’s the fuss? Unless you think it would be another Carbon-like disaster, but given how iOS is basically MacOS wthout a file system, I really don’t foresee any problems with porting over software. It should be nothing like the switch from Classic to OSX, or even PowerPC to Intel.


I’d like to see them do it, sayonara x86. Good riddance.
if everything works the same, that's fine. If all my audio devs have to port their code, then it may be years before everything is as it is now, and some will just flatly refuse to port yet again.
Old 11th November 2018
  #2099
TNM
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSt0rm View Post
I bought the z4. Apple should of done more sooner. Sorry. bitter sweet. Going from ibook g3 to water cooled g5's to the glory that was the 2.66ghz intel macpro to a 6core macpro to a 12 core macpro monster. black macbook to many macbook pros (I'll stay mac for my laptops). The pros carried apple through some dark times and then they shunted us for great money. No complaints I would do the same. The only thing is with an extra trillion dollars laying around you would think they could squeeze some off to keep innovating for us pros.

Hp is ready to eat apples lunch btw. The z workstations have bios settings to use apple shortcuts. They know us.
True, but with the FLS slot issue, there is also no real point using windows with a powerful CPU anyway, as there's no way to actually make use of all that power from a single DAW, which is how many of us like to work. 128 FLS slots get filled in no time with ore than 50% cpu power to spare, even in a single 8 core machine. This is the single reason that stopped me going windows, as well as forced updates that break things, which even staunchest windows advocates will admit. The problem with HP is windows.
Old 11th November 2018
  #2100
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JSt0rm's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNM View Post
True, but with the FLS slot issue, there is also no real point using windows with a powerful CPU anyway, as there's no way to actually make use of all that power from a single DAW, which is how many of us like to work. 128 FLS slots get filled in no time with ore than 50% cpu power to spare, even in a single 8 core machine. This is the single reason that stopped me going windows, as well as forced updates that break things, which even staunchest windows advocates will admit. The problem with HP is windows.
Interesting. I've never heard of an fls error before.

Reading this thread...

End of Windows for Pro production - FLS Limit?

It seems its based on certain plug ins hogging that resource?

Can you point me to the forced updates issue? All I am seeing is you are able to disable updates and driver updates.

Im coming from a 12 core macpro with 64gb of ram running an hdx2 system with a aurora16 and a hd i/o. I was never starved for cpu power. My biggest ssue was the lack of modern i/o. Running 500 tracks plus prores video in super sessions feels slower. This is a test But Im welcome to knowing about any issues for I'm neck deep.

I havent installed the hdx cards yet but I will try to create the fls issue with native ultimate.
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