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Tim Cook on Mac Desktop commitment Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 16th January 2017
  #181
Tui
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Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
All 4 ports on the MacBook Pro are TB3 enabled.
The other day, I played around with a MBP without that touch-bar thingy. Not counting headphones out, it had exactly 2 ports, including the one for charging. If you want to connect any of the millions of USB 1&2 devices that people still have and use, such as trackballs or USB-sticks, you need an adaptor. Would it have harmed Apple to add just one regular USB port..?

They are way too early, trying to kill USB, just like they were too early trying to kill PCIe. In ten years, maybe five, but not now.

Last edited by Tui; 16th January 2017 at 02:09 PM..
Old 16th January 2017
  #182
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Thunderbolt was launched in 2011, and has developed as planned since then. In the Mac world, TB would be the last thing to worry about IMO. :-)
Old 16th January 2017
  #183
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When APple introduced the iMac they ditched every legacy port in favour of USB. Without that the millions of USB devices may not have existed.
They couldn't have included USB a port because the sides of the new MBPs are too thin, like my 12" MacBook to even fit usba.
Some will argue they should have made it thicker. Some will happily take the portability improvements (given it's a laptop). USBC ports are the new standard and I'd expect the new iMac to have them and not usba.

Like you say you can connect to any usba device with the correct cable. So it's not an insurmountable problem given the bandwidth improvements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
The other day, I played around with a MBP without that touch-bar thingy. Not counting headphones out, it had exactly 2 ports, including the one for charging. If you want to connect any of the millions of USB 1&2 devices that people still have and use, such as trackballs or USB-sticks, you need an adaptor. Would it have harmed Apple to add just one regular USB port..?

They are way too early, trying to kill USB, just like they were too early trying to kill PCIe. In ten years, maybe five, but not now.
Old 17th January 2017
  #184
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In order to win the "innovator" title they must continue to implement technology before the competition.

You gotta pay to be hip....
Old 17th January 2017
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike O View Post
In order to win the "innovator" title they must continue to implement technology before the competition.

You gotta pay to be hip....
ditching Megasafe is going backwards not forward
Old 17th January 2017
  #186
Tui
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Originally Posted by Mike O View Post

You gotta pay to be hip....
Yup. Only Apple can get away with making you pay more for less.
Old 17th January 2017
  #187
Tui
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Originally Posted by zebastian21 View Post
ditching Megasafe is going backwards not forward
Indeed.
Old 17th January 2017
  #188
Magsafe was one of the most genius connection types for laptops IMO.
Old 17th January 2017
  #189
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Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
Magsafe was one of the most genius connection types for laptops IMO.
somebody will make one that fits to that usb-c port no doubt
Old 17th January 2017
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gussyg2007 View Post
somebody will make one that fits to that usb-c port no doubt
They already do...
Old 17th January 2017
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zebastian21 View Post
ditching Megasafe is going backwards not forward
Yep. It's a strange world when Microsoft implements a Magsafe type connector that does not only power, but data also - and Apple abandons the idea (for weight/thinness?). The MS version does not only power, but uses the same connector for data between the detachable screen (Surface Book) and I think dock. Is adding data, etc. innovative? Surely not MS!
---------------
Funny, somewhat related story....

My brother has for many years had multiples of everything Apple (MacBook pros, Watches, iPads/Pros, phones, etc.). Upgrading the instant the newest 'whatever' comes out. He's invested in the ecosystem and it works for him. Cool.

When upgrading to the the latest MacBook pro, he complained that Apple had abandoned MagSafe because it had saved his computer 'many times'. "But I can live with it."

Two weeks after receiving his new MBP, "I think I like this better without MagSafe because I used to inadvertently pull it out. That was a pain." I have a feeling when he hears the news that Apple will be upgrading the MBP to Kaby Lake and up to 32gb ram mid year what "is fine for me" will change immediately. "But resale prices are good".

My point is that it is interesting how ones perspective can change based on other things (such as investment into the ecosystem or what is available when).
Old 17th January 2017
  #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike O View Post
My point is that it is interesting how ones perspective can change based on other things (such as investment into the ecosystem or what is available when).

completely agreed. not to snark, but reminds me of a lot of UAD owners...
Old 17th January 2017
  #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lestermagneto View Post
completely agreed. not to snark, but reminds me of a lot of UAD owners...
Human nature I suppose - not limited to ANY subset. My example was just the one at hand.
Old 17th January 2017
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike O View Post
Human nature I suppose - not limited to ANY subset. My example was just the one at hand.
completely.. perception bias plays hard.... and it has been selected for since we protect our young etc as they are "ours" etc etc....

(sorry for the UAD snark, unnecessary ...just hear a lot of it from friends invested in the eco-system, and seems like yet another polarizing topic here on gs!)
Old 17th January 2017
  #195
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Old 17th January 2017
  #197
Quote:
Originally Posted by pulsar modular View Post
How old is the Mac Pro (released in Dec 2013)?

Discover how old your computer is in human years.

Your computer is approximately 58 human years old.


166 and still kicking ass (with careful planning and commitment) over here
Old 18th January 2017
  #198
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If I, when I'm old(er), am performing as well as my 8-core Mac which is "approximately 164 human years old", I'll be quite happy. OTOH, I have only one core, and 164:8 = circa 20...

Last edited by nativeaudio; 19th January 2017 at 12:24 PM..
Old 19th January 2017
  #199
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Originally Posted by Tui View Post
They are way too early, trying to kill USB, just like they were too early trying to kill PCIe. In ten years, maybe five, but not now.
I think you're right. I can see maybe this have something to do with power support for the connected gear, size and weight of machines and so on, but dropping native USB ports does alienate users. I just got a change of heart from a client that preferred the 2015 MBP for the 2016 based on this aspect alone. Not everyone is friendly juggling adapters and converters.
Old 19th January 2017
  #200
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^its not dropping USB. It's got USB-c ports. As an owner of a 12"MacBook I can tell you it's not that hard to adapt. I bought one USBC to usba adapter and that's it. The USBC port supports over ten different protocols...USB/Thunderbolt/hdmi/FireWire etc. you don't have to use adapters, just a cable with the right connectors on each end. No different to any other computer. For example I currently use a FireWire 400 to FireWire 800 cable on my late 2013 MBP.
Old 19th January 2017
  #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
^its not dropping USB. It's got USB-c ports. As an owner of a 12"MacBook I can tell you it's not that hard to adapt. I bought one USBC to usba adapter and that's it. The USBC port supports over ten different protocols...USB/Thunderbolt/hdmi/FireWire etc. you don't have to use adapters, just a cable with the right connectors on each end. No different to any other computer. For example I currently use a FireWire 400 to FireWire 800 cable on my late 2013 MBP.
ahh, somehow I missed that... so you can run firewire devices over usb-c! completely missed that... so if drivers work, or in standalone mode more likely, my apogee ensemble can still work with these.. interesting...
Old 20th January 2017
  #202
Gear Head
Apple is throwing away their pro user community. They are starting to design products that they can market to wannabes rather than catering to what their actual pro users are constantly on their knees begging for. That combined with the annual "will X work with new Mac OS?" deal had me sick and tired of them.
Old 20th January 2017
  #203
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^because 4 independent TB3 enabled ports capable of 40GB/s transfer speeds each is not Pro enough??
Old 20th January 2017
  #204
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Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
^because 4 independent TB3 enabled ports capable of 40GB/s transfer speeds each is not Pro enough??
No because a maximum of 16gb of RAM is not "pro enough." A low end GPU in the flagship model is not "pro enough"(yes I know this is an audio forum but that still matters for other purposes, its not an audio exclusive machine). Because their blatant disregard for cooling isn't "pro enough." Because a dual core flagship model of what used to be one of the best music production computers on the planet isn't "pro enough." Because their lack of caring about the mac pro is seriously irritating.


Lets be real. I can max out my 16GB of RAM on my macbook before the CPU even hits 50%. And thats a sandy-bridge model. The MBP seriously needs a ram upgrade. But no they opted for LPDDR3 in order to get more out of the battery which is made smaller because the device is thinner. Sure, that makes a difference to students and day to day casual users but not to creative professionals. The Unibodys were thin and light enough for us. No one from the "pro" community that I can recall asked for a thinner machine. Thats what the 12" macbook is for. Thats what chromebooks are for. And in all seriousness, an RX460 is all they can put in there? really? Razer managed a GTX 1060 in a slightly smaller machine. Yeah I know FCP optimizations and all that, but not everyone uses FCP. Avid and Adobe are still things. Remember when the imacs and the macbook pros first became thinner? Honestly why was that? because it certainly didn't help. Cooling was a disaster, and caused thermal throttling, a huge no no for power usage, and along with that came noise. Another huge no no for audio professionals. And its not like the went "oops" and fixed it. They waited for intel to fix their problem and make lower TDP chips. And what happened to the mac mini? That littleguy was the bread and butter for home studios on a budget. But then they went and nerfed it. No more quad core option. And seriously, how long was it before apple finally refreshed the mac pro. And how long is it going to be this time? Ivy-Bridge-EP is 3 generations old now. And geez its 2017 already and they are still selling the configuration from 2013.


Look buddy, I completely understand what apple is doing. They are trying to push new standards like TB3 as you mentioned and USB-C. And that is great that they are doing that. But theres a reason things don't move as fast in the pro department. Its the same reason apple kept firewire on all their machines wayy longer than PC manufacturers did, and the same reason people are so afraid to put windows 10 on their machines. It was never about having the latest and greatest technology, or about having the most beautiful looking machine. Apple used to follow the trends of what pro audio and pro video companies implemented into their products and created machines that in their own words, "just worked." Now in order to use anything that isn't TB3 or USB-C on a new macbook, you have to order a fleet of dongles, which as any pro user will tell you is just another thing that can go wrong. And pro A/V companies now have to play catch up with standards in order to make their products "just work" with the new macbook. And while were at it, its a laptop. Its designed for portability, and having to carry dongles makes the machine remarkably less portable. Now apple cuts corners to make their machines sleeker and prettier which doesn't matter in the real world when all that matters is that the machine just works, and works well. Theres nothing necessarily wrong with a pretty looking product, or pushing new standards. But thats something that needs to be saved for the consumer market. That is where its acceptable for apple to tell us what we want and what we need. But theres a list of things creatives have been begging apple for and not getting, and thus precipitating a mass exodus to windows. Yet despite this Apple still makes more sales every day. Why is that? Because as I said they no longer cater to the pro user community. Instead they are marketing it as a proffesional product in such a way that it grabs the attention of people who want to be part of the crowd, rather than those who are already part of it. Its a stroke of genius when you want to make sales. But in the end, its just not what the pro user community wants, and we are likely going to stick with our current machines until the industry catches up or hop over to the other side.
Old 24th January 2017
  #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norbury brook View Post
all iMacs are just laptops with bigger screens really. Nothing wrong with that but, I don't count them as desktop machines in the true sense.

if we use the car analogy , desktops are the trucks of the world, large powerful ,specific machines for a specific purpose. The iMac is a car.



MC
I have an iMac and I can't hold it on my lap while using it or carry it around easily. It is by no means a laptop. And even if there were some truth to it they make a workstation desktop. It's called the Mac Pro. So far as I know they are not discontinuing it and even if they update it it is unlikely they will add a PCIe slot and I certainly don't see them making anything more powerful than they have now for less money. So what is it you want?

I don't see anything all that wrong with the Mac line other than the higher end is expensive. If the top of the line Mac Pro is not powerful enough then maybe you need multiple computers in some kind of network. In that case Mac has the Mac mini. Either a Mac Pro and a Mini or an iMac and a mini should be enough for audio production. IF that is still not enough then I guess you need something that Mac has never made and probably never will.

Not trying to be rude but I just don't get what it is people want from this company.
Old 24th January 2017
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zbest56 View Post
Apple is throwing away their pro user community. They are starting to design products that they can market to wannabes rather than catering to what their actual pro users are constantly on their knees begging for. That combined with the annual "will X work with new Mac OS?" deal had me sick and tired of them.
Same here. I don't get how a 12 core Mac Pro with 64 gigs of RAM is not enough for a "Pro". As far as I can tell it's the lack of PCIe that is the problem. Other than that what is not "Pro" about the Mac Pro? Is it not powerful enough?

Not trolling. Genuinely interested. My sessions are quartets at most. Never loads of overdubs either. But I do sometimes use virtual orchestras. If a Mac Pro is not enough for people doing larger sessions I would like to know and I would also like to know why that is so.

By the way, not sure I get exactly what it means to say that Mac is throwing away their pro use community. How is that community defined? I'm guessing this is about session size or something. How many audio tracks does a Mac Pro record at one time? Guess I should just research this.
Old 24th January 2017
  #207
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Originally Posted by Crazy4Jazz View Post
It's called the Mac Pro. So far as I know they are not discontinuing it and even if they update it it is unlikely they will add a PCIe slot and I certainly don't see them making anything more powerful than they have now for less money. So what is it you want?



Not trying to be rude but I just don't get what it is people want from this company.
Faster multicore machines, ie more than 6. Expensive is to be expected

Some wants PCI-e internally, but I don't care. I embrace the new form and can keep any cards outside in a bay. What do I care? I have stuff all over the studio.

What I don't embrace is not doing updates for 3 years.
Old 24th January 2017
  #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy4Jazz View Post
Same here. I don't get how a 12 core Mac Pro with 64 gigs of RAM is not enough for a "Pro". As far as I can tell it's the lack of PCIe that is the problem. Other than that what is not "Pro" about the Mac Pro? Is it not powerful enough?

Not trolling. Genuinely interested. My sessions are quartets at most. Never loads of overdubs either. But I do sometimes use virtual orchestras. If a Mac Pro is not enough for people doing larger sessions I would like to know and I would also like to know why that is so.

By the way, not sure I get exactly what it means to say that Mac is throwing away their pro use community. How is that community defined? I'm guessing this is about session size or something. How many audio tracks does a Mac Pro record at one time? Guess I should just research this.
with a mac pro you're paying for an extra, expensive GFX card that is of no use to a DAW. Also they're forcing you into what you can or cannot use regarding peripherals like hard disks, PCIe cards etc

A lot of people were quite happy with PCie and internal drives all in a single enclosure. Now they're being forced to make a decision about their future based on what Apple have decided is the way forward with a tiny machine that needs external peripherals.

Some are not happy with this and I can see why.


MC
Old 25th January 2017
  #209
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy4Jazz View Post
Same here. I don't get how a 12 core Mac Pro with 64 gigs of RAM is not enough for a "Pro". As far as I can tell it's the lack of PCIe that is the problem. Other than that what is not "Pro" about the Mac Pro? Is it not powerful enough?

Not trolling. Genuinely interested. My sessions are quartets at most. Never loads of overdubs either. But I do sometimes use virtual orchestras. If a Mac Pro is not enough for people doing larger sessions I would like to know and I would also like to know why that is so.

By the way, not sure I get exactly what it means to say that Mac is throwing away their pro use community. How is that community defined? I'm guessing this is about session size or something. How many audio tracks does a Mac Pro record at one time? Guess I should just research this.
Power is not everything. Its about form factor, and modularity. Remember its a desktop so its going to spend 90% of its lifetime sitting in one place. Therefore it really doesn't make sense for apple to give it the make it smaller and lighter treatment. Now let me clarify something here. The new mac pro is an absolutely genius design from a thermal and acoustic standpoint, that I can give to apple. But by giving it the smaller treatment they have sacrificed modularity. The old tower mac pro was very modular. And they made the experience of opening, upgrading, and customizing even more seamless and enjoyable than it is on your average PC. That was a godsend for its users. Because CPU and RAM is not everything, and there are so many different use cases that can be classified as "pro" its very important that these people have the option to tailor their machines to their needs. For example, a video editor using the adobe suite would up until recently require an Nvidia GPU for CUDA acceleration. Easy upgrade with the tower, but with the trash can its another thousand dollars for a PCIe cage. Storage is the same deal. You can't just load it up with drives, you have to pay out the wazoo for a thunderbolt enclosure or a NAS. All this apple says to make it "easier to use." Yes, but who on earth asked for it to be easier? People who have specific uses know how to make their computers work for said uses. We don't need to be babied through it. Its making it harder more than its making it easier.
Also lets say we don't need 12 cores. I have a 6700k in my current machine and it is more than enough. I can get that CPU in a mac. But I ONLY have the option of paying for an expensive 5k display and an expensive laptop grade GPU to go with it. A GPU that is barely powerful enough to drive the display with any dignity let alone powerful enough for my personal uses. So once again its back to the PCIe enclosure with cost over twice as much as my GTX1070 which I would put into it. Building a PC has always been simple. Its a box and everything you need goes inside it. The tower mac pro used to be a deluxe version of that. Now you have to shell out more money for the infastructure to support upgrades and customization than you do on the actual upgrades themselves.
And to answer your question on what defines the pro community, there are many answers as there are many use cases. CAD design, animation, video editing, audio recording, etc. just to name a few. Each one has wildly different needs. So a pro user can be defined as a power user with a specific workload requiring a specific set of hardware in order to accomplish that workload.
Old 25th January 2017
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy4Jazz View Post
Same here. I don't get how a 12 core Mac Pro with 64 gigs of RAM is not enough for a "Pro". As far as I can tell it's the lack of PCIe that is the problem. Other than that what is not "Pro" about the Mac Pro? Is it not powerful enough?
The problem with the Mac Pro is that it is 3 years old, and still the same price it was when it came out. I'd buy one if it was priced for todays market. I'm not going to pay bleeding edge price for 3 year old technology.
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