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Tim Cook on Mac Desktop commitment Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 2nd November 2018
  #2041
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
Apple has not released anything competitive in computer world for 10 years now. They ware on top of the world, now they have become a luxury toy manufacture company. Nice toys though, but it is not the tool for professionals. The 2019 Mac Pro is their last chance, if they mess that one too I move.

I sympathize with that.

Though clearly loads of people think Macs can compete. You can be savvy without being computer savvy and whatever gets the job done is what gets the job done.

Last edited by Mikael B; 2nd November 2018 at 10:44 PM..
Old 2nd November 2018
  #2042
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
Its already been explained--its the EMOTIONAL investment...
That's yet again more hyperbole. Everyone I know making money with their machines view also their Macs as tools, period. It doesn't matter what you think. It's their money, their businesses and their tools and Apple is cashing in on that and other groups. Viewing these buyers as ill-informed is not a sign of intelligence, but a failure of understanding the current computer market. After all Apple are the ones who are making billions in profits (not sales, profits) from computers alone, so any critique not acknowledging that Apple sell products with features many people — including some professional groups — want is just silly, no matter how well argued otherwise.

My emotional investment is expecting Apple to deliver in 2019. I will be disappointed if they don't. I know that's silly of me, but I want what that eternal promise, which is a machine that melts away into the background and leaves me with my evolving work product at my fingertips.
Old 2nd November 2018
  #2043
Lives for gear
 
ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
That's yet again more hyperbole...
Why thank you! An even better word for it is humor.
Old 3rd November 2018
  #2044
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
That's yet again more hyperbole. Everyone I know making money with their machines view also their Macs as tools, period. It doesn't matter what you think. It's their money, their businesses and their tools and Apple is cashing in on that and other groups. Viewing these buyers as ill-informed is not a sign of intelligence, but a failure of understanding the current computer market. After all Apple are the ones who are making billions in profits (not sales, profits) from computers alone, so any critique not acknowledging that Apple sell products with features many people — including some professional groups — want is just silly, no matter how well argued otherwise.

My emotional investment is expecting Apple to deliver in 2019. I will be disappointed if they don't. I know that's silly of me, but I want what that eternal promise, which is a machine that melts away into the background and leaves me with my evolving work product at my fingertips.


Viewing people as "ill-informed" is a sign of intelligence if said people are ill-informed!

Apple making huge profits due to the huge profit margin on the items they sell is not proof of anything other than being able to get away with charging over the odds for their products to the people that are willing to buy them.
Old 3rd November 2018
  #2045
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
My emotional investment is expecting Apple to deliver in 2019. I will be disappointed if they don't. I know that's silly of me, but I want what that eternal promise, which is a machine that melts away into the background and leaves me with my evolving work product at my fingertips.
What a perfect description of my 2013 home-rolled i2500k rig.
Old 3rd November 2018
  #2046
Gear Maniac
 
tsrono's Avatar
 

First benchmarks for the new mini showing up online: First Mac mini 2018 benchmarks suggest Mac Pro speeds, unlike MacBook Air | VentureBeat

Quote:
The first Geekbench result is the strongest, showing a single-core score of 5512, which eclipses all Mac models save for the latest four-core 4.2GHz iMac, plus a multi-core score of 23516. This multi-core number would place the Mac mini at the same general performance level as a mid-range configuration of the Intel Xeon-based Mac Pro, which runs eight cores at 3.0GHz.
More details in the article of course.
Old 3rd November 2018
  #2047
Lives for gear
 
Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by NamesAreAPain View Post
Viewing people as "ill-informed" is a sign of intelligence if said people are ill-informed!
If that’s the condition you’re positing, then I think you over-estimate your intelligence. As a tech industry veteran with decades of experience including extremely senior technical roles at both Apple and Microsoft I think you’d have a hard time convincing an objective bystander that I am ill-informed.

I just happen to attach a lot of value to aspects of Apple’s offerings that go well beyond the physical bill of materials. I’m not deceived. I’m not gullible. I am extremely happy with my choice of macOS for the vast majority of my personal and professional use based on a very deep understanding of the implications.

... but I don’t insist that the rest of the universe come to the same conclusions. What I value and what you value can be completely different without being a source of irritation for me. Your suggestion that I’d make different decisions if only I knew what you know, on the other hand? Laughable, and well worth refuting for the sake of the public record.
Old 3rd November 2018
  #2048
Lives for gear
 
lowkey's Avatar
 

Couldn’t the people complaining about the cost of Apples internal 2TB SSD just buy an external SSD and connect it via thunderbolt instead?

Or is it just easier to complain about it because ‘Apple’?
Old 3rd November 2018
  #2049
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
Couldn’t the people complaining about the cost of Apples internal 2TB SSD just buy an external SSD and connect it via thunderbolt instead?

Or is it just easier to complain about it because ‘Apple’?
Easier to complain. Honestly I don't know why anyone would buy a new Mini with anything other than 256gb for storage (ok...maybe even 512) and throw external storage on it. 256 is more than enough for the OS.
Old 3rd November 2018
  #2050
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by zephonic View Post
At the event they said the Mini has desktop processors, not mobile.
Unless the benchmark tool is wrong the i7 version at least is a mobile chip. 8700B
Old 3rd November 2018
  #2051
Gear Head
 

I honestly don't know so I'm asking or proposing these questions

A Mac Pro was promised in 2019, quite possibly late 2019 right? So it's really 2020 outside of America. Are they not delaying its production around the timing of being (rumoured) independent of Intel by 2020? From momory.

Apple market the new iPad Pro that is 90% faster than all laptops sold in the last year. That includes their laptops right... marketing aside has anyone contemplated the current mobile CPU power and proprietary GPU scaled up to desktop class? 32/64 threads.

Both these current iMacs and Mini Pros seem to be an effort to keep people happy in the meantime. Otherwise why do it at all?

Why release Intel machines like this to move away from them in the years to come. They seems to be transitional stepping stones and not a great time to buy anything until we know what the future Mac Pro will be.

Looking at those scores above. I would be happy with a stepping stone Mac Mini considering I'm on a 5-7 year cycle with every Mac product I buy.
Old 3rd November 2018
  #2052
Lives for gear
 
ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
Couldn’t the people complaining about the cost of Apples internal 2TB SSD just buy an external SSD and connect it via thunderbolt instead?
Back when i had my g5 mini, i recall outboard disk units shaped just like the mini for stacking. I imagine that would be a good approach for this. Could they be tb powered like my outboard disk is usb powered? just leaves the ram upsizing.
Old 3rd November 2018
  #2053
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
Couldn’t the people complaining about the cost of Apples internal 2TB SSD just buy an external SSD and connect it via thunderbolt instead?
Why one thing exclude the other?

I can complain for Apple's absurd upgades priced and then do lot of things, like build an hackintosh.

Quote:
Or is it just easier to complain about it because ‘Apple’?
Is not easier but easy, and this is the fault of Apple not of people than know math and know how much cost components in real world.
4.900 euros for top Mini is not for real world, it's ridiculous and offensive for custumers.
Old 3rd November 2018
  #2054
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
I sympathize with that.

Though clearly loads of people think Macs can compete. You can be savvy without being computer savvy and whatever gets the job done is what gets the job done.
It of course depended on what you do. But it is interesting, Microsoft has learned one lesion from Apple and has started to strip down the OS. Apple is going in the opposite direction with adding more and more bloat, spy processors and has become a fat cat. Microsoft is becoming more and more open source friendly, apple is going the other way.
Old 3rd November 2018
  #2055
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
It of course depended on what you do. But it is interesting, Microsoft has learned one lesion from Apple and has started to strip down the OS. Apple is going in the opposite direction with adding more and more bloat, spy processors and has become a fat cat. Microsoft is becoming more and more open source friendly, apple is going the other way.
When you know Windows 10, this remark is very funny.
Old 3rd November 2018
  #2056
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
It of course depended on what you do. But it is interesting, Microsoft has learned one lesion from Apple and has started to strip down the OS. Apple is going in the opposite direction with adding more and more bloat, spy processors and has become a fat cat. Microsoft is becoming more and more open source friendly, apple is going the other way.
This discussion is about Mac Desktop hardware and not about OSes. I don't see any bloat anywhere in macOS. Of course I'm still on 10.12 Sierra, but I hear this soliloquy every release.

I find that most people that think there is bloat in macOS simply don't know how to operate a computer. No offense, but that's my experience. If Apple made something I don't like, say iTunes 12+, then I successfully ignore that. If I don't like Finder, then I replace it. How hard is that? Not at all. macOS is not like iOS. I do what I want. If I don't want to update I don't. And so on.
Old 3rd November 2018
  #2057
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by NamesAreAPain View Post
Apple making huge profits due to the huge profit margin on the items they sell is not proof of anything other than being able to get away with charging over the odds for their products to the people that are willing to buy them.
Yeah, all those people making huge profits using their Macs for turning out work product, if they only had listened to you to be a couple of thousands dollars richer. You think they care? People making money buy Macs if that suits them. Apple delivers extremely little downtime, useful designs and tools that get their jobs done (with some deviations of course). Get over it.

Of course for music production, alternative packages with everything offered in the compared Apple product remain relevant to consider for any music producer viewing computers as tools and not a religion. But that's not a topic for here. It would make for a great sibling discussion. I assume there must exist something like already?

Last edited by Mikael B; 3rd November 2018 at 05:41 PM..
Old 3rd November 2018
  #2058
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
Couldn’t the people complaining about the cost of Apples internal 2TB SSD just buy an external SSD and connect it via thunderbolt instead?

Or is it just easier to complain about it because ‘Apple’?
That's not because it's Apple. It's because you want the internal that big. I think there might be actual technical reasons why Apple won't let you put in anything there, but they sure could open up that process. Good you can replace RAM at least.
Old 3rd November 2018
  #2059
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
Easier to complain. Honestly I don't know why anyone would buy a new Mini with anything other than 256gb for storage (ok...maybe even 512) and throw external storage on it. 256 is more than enough for the OS.
Good for you. I don't know what you put on your disks, but I think 1TB is minimum for an internal. My externals are for backup or are project specific. Not that it isn't a useful strategy to keep projects external, because it is, especially so in a studio situation. For me it's too messy.
Old 3rd November 2018
  #2060
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimPani View Post
I honestly don't know so I'm asking or proposing these questions

A Mac Pro was promised in 2019, quite possibly late 2019 right? So it's really 2020 outside of America. Are they not delaying its production around the timing of being (rumoured) independent of Intel by 2020?
Apple market the new iPad Pro that is 90% faster than all laptops sold in the last year. That includes their laptops right... marketing aside has anyone contemplated the current mobile CPU power and proprietary GPU scaled up to desktop class? 32/64 threads.

Both these current iMacs and Mini Pros seem to be an effort to keep people happy in the meantime. Otherwise why do it at all?

Why release Intel machines like this to move away from them in the years to come. They seems to be transitional stepping stones and not a great time to buy anything until we know what the future Mac Pro will be.
I certainly don't believe Apple will step away from Intel any time soon, but it's not totally impossible. I think it will take at least 5 more years before we see that. I don't see how your laptop observations apply to desktops. How is that relevant?

Why you'd want a new Mac Mini now is if you want a useful desktop running the current macOS and your software investments and don't want the iMac, iMac Pro or the MacBooks. Nor the PC alternatives you have considered.

Pros don't wait, I think. They might I guess, unless their needs are immediate, but more typical I believe is they use and get paid. Apple computers have resale value no matter what so the cost of getting out of a Apple hardware investment is typically very low. If you already have written it off who cares anyway? Typical Pro Mac users I know keep the old ones for other tasks.
Old 3rd November 2018
  #2061
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
This discussion is about Mac Desktop hardware and not about OSes. I don't see any bloat anywhere in macOS. Of course I'm still on 10.12 Sierra, but I hear this soliloquy every release.

I find that most people that think there is bloat in macOS simply don't know how to operate a computer. No offense, but that's my experience. If Apple made something I don't like, say iTunes 12+, then I successfully ignore that. If I don't like Finder, then I replace it. How hard is that? Not at all. macOS is not like iOS. I do what I want. If I don't want to update I don't. And so on.
Their hardware desktop hardware sucks big time. Laptops are good but expensive, but so are also the competitors. Can't even imagine why someone would by apple hardware for the hardware. You buy it for OSX and the software you can run and
you can stand their limited hardware. I definitely prefer a Linux over OSX or Microsoft Windows. But there is still a lot of applications missing.
Old 3rd November 2018
  #2062
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
Unless the benchmark tool is wrong the i7 version at least is a mobile chip. 8700B
Right. That's this one: Intel® Core™ i7-8700B Processor. It's not the same as in the MacBook Pros though.

It would of course be silly of Apple to put a desktop processor into the Mini just because, but it's totally valid and justified to want a dedicated desktop CPU here. Maybe it's once again the form factor that Apple allows limiting the potential performance. Why isn't the i9 in the Mini, if it's good enough for the MacBook Pro?

If you want to compare this one to the Intel CPUs in the current fastest MacBook Pros, the i7-8850H and the i9-8950HK look here: i7-8850H, i9-8950HK & i7-8700B compared.
Old 3rd November 2018
  #2063
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
Their hardware desktop hardware sucks big time. Laptops are good but expensive, but so are also the competitors. Can't even imagine why someone would by apple hardware for the hardware. You buy it for OSX and the software you can run and you can stand their limited hardware. I definitely prefer a Linux over OSX or Microsoft Windows. But there is still a lot of applications missing.
Yes, I know and I do have my eyes on Linux. Let's hope it keeps growing and more products are ported.
Many are waiting for Apple to rectify themselves with the Mac Pro. In vain likely, but here's for hope.
Old 3rd November 2018
  #2064
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by zephonic View Post
At the event they said the Mini has desktop processors, not mobile.
Are sure they didn't say "desktop level" or something like that? If they said all of the new Minis have desktop processors, then clearly those that said this were being disingenuous. At least if we're to believe the shared tests and the Intel CPU information.
Old 3rd November 2018
  #2065
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Are sure they didn't say "desktop level" or something like that? If they said all of the new Minis have desktop processors, then clearly those that said this were being disingenuous. At least if we're to believe the shared tests and the Intel CPU information.
The exact words were. “And these aren’t mobile parts. No! These are higher power eighth generation CPUs with faster graphics too.”

What?
Old 3rd November 2018
  #2066
Lives for gear
It's the form that limits the power draw of the processor, because of heat. The problem is that you pay for miniaturization in the form of higher prices for similar performance. If you price out parts for a normal size tower with similar performance, it will be well below these prices. If you price out a tower for a similar cost, it will have better performance. The little form factor is nifty but it's not a concern to me. I'm sure there people who it works for however, and even with mobile processors, it's still pretty powerful. The curve of computer power over the last decade has been really exciting.

All this being said, I'm not mentioning the Apple price premium, which I guess some people can justify to themselves with good support from Apple.
Old 4th November 2018
  #2067
Lives for gear
 
JSt0rm's Avatar
I bought the z4. Apple should of done more sooner. Sorry. bitter sweet. Going from ibook g3 to water cooled g5's to the glory that was the 2.66ghz intel macpro to a 6core macpro to a 12 core macpro monster. black macbook to many macbook pros (I'll stay mac for my laptops). The pros carried apple through some dark times and then they shunted us for great money. No complaints I would do the same. The only thing is with an extra trillion dollars laying around you would think they could squeeze some off to keep innovating for us pros.

Hp is ready to eat apples lunch btw. The z workstations have bios settings to use apple shortcuts. They know us.
Old 4th November 2018
  #2068
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Good for you. I don't know what you put on your disks, but I think 1TB is minimum for an internal. My externals are for backup or are project specific. Not that it isn't a useful strategy to keep projects external, because it is, especially so in a studio situation. For me it's too messy.
I put everything that isn't the OS or an application on external drives. At the moment I have a 256GB SSD in my Macbook Pro. It's fine for the OS and applications. Audio work, video, photos...all far too much to store even on a 1TB internal SSD so in my mind a complete waste of money. Given what Apple charges for that 1TB SSD thats a good chunk of change.
Old 4th November 2018
  #2069
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
I certainly don't believe Apple will step away from Intel any time soon, but it's not totally impossible. I think it will take at least 5 more years before we see that. I don't see how your laptop observations apply to desktops. How is that relevant?
I think your timeline is way off for the laptops (and the Mini for that matter). Look at the benchmark numbers for the A12X in the new iPad Pro. Single core scores are even with the mid-range i7-based 2018 MBP. Multi-core scores are close. It's not going to take 5 years. Everything they've been building in their development tools says they're moving this way and now, not later. A-series chips will be in mobile Macs far sooner than 5 years.
Old 4th November 2018
  #2070
Lives for gear
 
Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSt0rm View Post
Hp is ready to eat apples lunch btw.
Hardware isn't the sole motivator for using a Mac. If it was, Apple would frequently find themselves with more serious challenges from other contenders since the major functional components are readily available to others as well. In practice, the operating system is a huge part of what appeals to me.

Apple's move to Intel hardware invites these kinds of comparisons, which is why I'm inclined to believe that Apple will move to their own CPU designs as soon as it's practical to do so. I doubt it would start with the Pro lineup because third party software will need more time than Apple's own offerings, but I wouldn't be shocked if the basic MacBook moved to an A-series variant sometime in 2020.
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