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Tim Cook on Mac Desktop commitment Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 27th April 2018
  #1951
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ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BCProject View Post
Why do we make up all this nonsense about Apple pissing all over "pros" - because they haven't made a computer that meets a very specific and narrow need in a while?

Get the computer that works for you and get on with it. Quityerbitchin'.
Finally, some language worthy of a flame war. All the thoughtful discussion here makes me nostalgic for the old days when a good old mac/pc internet battle entertained for days. Just mentioning the two technologies in the same sentence was enough to trigger a throw-down. I have a theory that mac users on the average just don't have the passion they used to.

PS, has anyone else noticed that John Hodgeman, who played the amiable bumbling PC guy in those apple commercials, has lost a bunch of weight and is now playing the bad guy on some tv shows? Another sign the worm has turned?



For those here who speak excellent English as a second language but may not be familiar with all idoms: "Even a worm will turn" is an expression used to convey the message that even the meekest or most docile of creatures will retaliate or seek revenge if pushed too far. The phrase was first recorded in a 1546 collection of proverbs by John Heywood, in the form "Treade a worme on the tayle, and it must turne agayne."

Last edited by ponzi; 27th April 2018 at 02:28 PM..
Old 27th April 2018
  #1952
Tui
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
I have a theory that mac users on the average just don't have the passion they used to.
This shouldn't surprise anyone, we're getting old!
Old 27th April 2018
  #1953
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsrono View Post
All silver metal.
Silver is obsolete.
Now we have the "badass space grey".
Old 27th April 2018
  #1954
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ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
This shouldn't surprise anyone, we're getting old!
I guess so. I had other passions when I was young, now my passion is living longer...
Old 27th April 2018
  #1955
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BCProject's Avatar
 

I get it - we want a cheesegrater with updated internals. Apple will not make such a computer for reasons known only to them. I'm disappointed too. I resigned myself to this reality and bought an iMac Pro. That computer won't satisfy everybody for their own personal reasons and needs. I fail to see the conspiracy or insult to the "pro" community on Apple's part. Apple is a huge company and pro users represent a very small (but vocal) addressable user base. If Apple isn't making a system that meets your needs - look elsewhere. That's all I'm saying.
Old 27th April 2018
  #1956
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The fact that they discontinued the quad Mini back in 2012 is really a kick in the groin to audio users. You can always add a TB>PCIe expander and use it with a future system. But not everyone wants to buy a new monitor every time they upgrade their computer. And "pro audio" doesn't require the cost of twin GPUs of the trashcan.

I like the modular idea....and that means bring your own monitor. I'm not going to go from my 32" 4k display to a 27" 5k iMac Pro just to get current tech.

I really hope the "modular mac pro" will include an inexpensive quad or 6 core model that will take the place of the Mini.
Old 27th April 2018
  #1957
Gear Nut
 

Ok I have read again the article about "The pro workflow team" that Apple has create for project the new 2019 Mac Pro.

Seriously, somebody that find a minimum logical sense in what the Apple people say can explain me?

In my immense ignorance of tech matter I know very well what are the bottlenecks and the workflows not only in music-audio sector but also on graphic-animation-movie editing world, general speaking of course.
For achieve this amazing results I just ask to friend and collegues what happen when they start speaking like º¬†∆¨∆˜ÚPçKCò kj

Now, WTF have done at Apple in the last 5 years considering that know this things is part of their job?

My impression that all this is simple marketing has growing after read again this nonsense article but also an other terrible supposition come to me: in the real world the supernew Mac Pro already exist, it's only not made by Apple and is not badass space grey. So, maybe in some obscure place they have a lot of trashcan that they wish sell before they become simply trash?
That will be happen for sure when the new mac pro come out.

Here in Italy we say that bad thinking is not good, but often you are right
Old 27th April 2018
  #1958
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ponzi's Avatar
I have trouble imaging how 'workflow' fits into the hardware design of a personal computer. Near as I can tell, those space-aged black cylinders have monitors, keyboard, and a mouse, just like my own brutish and pedestrian wintel box. Come to think of it, I had a 286 based computer in the 1980s that had a monitor, keyboard, and mouse. So, I think the only things they can wrestle with beyond the shape and color of the chassis is what kind of plugs to put on it, if any...

As others have observed, folks would be happy with a cheese grater box filled with newer technology--heck think how they could clean up if they made a mac pro kit that fit inside a gutted G5 mac pro--talk about recycling, friend of the earth, and all that. So, all this Hamlet style hand wringing "To be or not to be" seems to be adding a year to the simple task at hand. We know osx can boot on a home-made pc, so how much design is required to get something like this running? I was at one company that always set their sights too high, failed, and accomplished nothing. Sometimes the best is the enemy of the good....

I know I am repeating myself here, but apple could partner will dell or some such to create a workstation class computer with a special apple dongle chip on the mobo to prevent it from running on stock mobos. Heck, dell already had a dongle type thing going with versions of windows that would only install on a dell. Just not seeing the value of an engineering cycle that tries to re-invent things or make some bold leap into an unwanted future like the trash can did.
Old 27th April 2018
  #1959
Tui
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Who knows what they'll come up with. In their obsession with "innovation", they'll likely include something nobody asked for or needs... Perhaps a brain/wifi interface so you don't have to open your mouth anymore when you want to talk to Siri.

I'm only half joking...
Old 27th April 2018
  #1960
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Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
I have trouble imaging how 'workflow' fits into the hardware design of a personal computer.
In a professional production environment, switching projects often means switching physical drives - so balancing internal vs. external storage requirements, frequency of unmounting and desirability of simplifying that process is one aspect that leaps to mind. Knowing whether there’s value in bringing a subset of the hardware with you is another. I could imagine a tower design where there are actually two stacked units, one like a beefed up Mac Mini sitting on another that houses expansion cards.

The point is, they want to be able to come up with ideas and bounce them off people working in the industry to see what resonates and what falls flat. I’m sure Apple legitimately thought the cylinder was brilliant, and indeed for some it was a godsend. Just like the iMac Pro. For others, they don’t want to make the same mistake again.

Producing the box isn’t where Apple would face challenges, so the notion of turning to someone like Dell for production is laughable. It’s settling on a design they think is right and being confident that it’ll satisfy the market that seems to be taking time. Keep in mind that Apple likes to solve what it perceives as problems, so it’s not always 100% hardware but a combination of hardware and software that’s part of the equation. Should external drives mount elegantly into a single logical filesystem? Is writing redundantly to multiple drives and then being able to remove one for backup after a live recording an attractive scenario?

There’s always room to make life easier, and that’s clearly what Apple prides themselves on and will always push for.
Old 27th April 2018
  #1961
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Poinzy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
Who knows what they'll come up with. In their obsession with "innovation", they'll likely include something nobody asked for or needs... Perhaps a brain/wifi interface so you don't have to open your mouth anymore when you want to talk to Siri.

I'm only half joking...
This makes me wonder why Apple just doesn't go whole-hog into medical devices. I couldn't think of a greater "lifestyle" improvement than getting a new heart or a new eye. In terms of ethos, this seems to be right up Apple's alley.
Old 27th April 2018
  #1962
Tui
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poinzy View Post
This makes me wonder why Apple just doesn't go whole-hog into medical devices. I couldn't think of a greater "lifestyle" improvement than getting a new arm or a new eye. In terms of ethos, this seems to be right up Apple's alley.
Yeah, this is how AI is made palatable to us, as some sort of altruistic service to humanity. They say it is for people suffering from paralysis and the like. However, when you look closer, the goal is literally assimilation into a collective, just like the Borg in TNG:

'We don't have to worry about some evil dictator AI,' Musk told Y Combinator, 'because we are the AI collectively.
'That seems like the best outcome I can think of.'
Old 27th April 2018
  #1963
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Uh, what?

My point is that the personal computer is no longer a life-changing device. The computer market is shrinking, such is the lack of public enthusiasm for anything bigger than a smartphone. It would better to invest the tech brainpower in some other projects.
Old 27th April 2018
  #1964
Tui
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Tui's Avatar
Well, yeah, there's no contradiction. As you say, there isn't much more innovation possible with the traditional computer, which in essence is an appliance. Apple might very well branch out into medicine. My point is that AI is presented as a form of medical advancement.
Old 28th April 2018
  #1965
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Crazy4Jazz's Avatar
 

Can't wait for the Apple IEye.
Old 28th April 2018
  #1966
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post
In a professional production environment, switching projects often means switching physical drives - so balancing internal vs. external storage requirements, frequency of unmounting and desirability of simplifying that process is one aspect that leaps to mind.
Find how to improve this is a very good thing for some aspects of pro users.
For me is useless because I compose and orchestrate and once set my machine I only need time to time backup on external drives project drive and update my system clone for safety and for this usb 3 is ok. But in a recording-post production-mastering studios where lot of people come with their drives that wold be a suitable improvement.

But the point is for working on that making a "pro workflow team" is a nonsense, because what the pros can tell Apple about it has already be done years ago because is not rocket science, is very simple.

The difficult thing is find solutions and realize them, not study the workflows and bottlenecks because for know this things anybody with a minimum of knowledge need a maximum of 2/3 days, if they are in this kind of business. If they need more time or create superteams well... maybe they need to change job.

Because I know that at Apple they are not stupid, I think that all this bla bla bla from Apple is simply marketing, because it can not be anything else.
Because it's not rocket science.
Old 28th April 2018
  #1967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johannes2510 View Post
But the point is for working on that making a "pro workflow team" is a nonsense, because what the pros can tell Apple about it has already be done years ago because is not rocket science, is very simple.
Exactly. Pro's have been dealing with backup, redundancy, etc. for decades. Creating a workflow is part of the professional process. Apple's "if you have no control, you can't screw it up" philosophy doesn't necessarily work in the professional world.
Old 28th April 2018
  #1968
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ponzi's Avatar
I had been thinking the lengthy delay to the next mac pro was due to apple's inclinations--a rational business decision to abandon a niche market. I still think that's the case, but that they changed their mind. From the additional insight into Apple's processes and approaches, I am seeing hints of inward, rather than market, focus, groupthink, and heavy bureaucratic processes that speak more to their ability than inclination.

It will be interesting to see who's predictions were more accurate when the time comes. Even if the most wonderful computer is ultimately delivered, my guess is it will cost more than I want to pay, but I still have a license for logic x and final cut x, so I could provision a nice workstation at some point were I so inclined. I also have cubase, some NI, and some waves stuff--all with mac capability.
Old 28th April 2018
  #1969
Tui
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
Even if the most wonderful computer is ultimately delivered, my guess is it will cost more than I want to pay...
That's my concern also. They might come up with a 1000-core brute with a choice of $1-3K graphics card, a custom interface that features every connector known to man including brain-to-MIDI, and you can have it in any colour you want so long it's black.
Old 29th April 2018
  #1970
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jwh1192's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
I have trouble imaging how 'workflow' fits into the hardware design of a personal computer. Near as I can tell, those space-aged black cylinders have monitors, keyboard, and a mouse, just like my own brutish and pedestrian wintel box. Come to think of it, I had a 286 based computer in the 1980s that had a monitor, keyboard, and mouse. So, I think the only things they can wrestle with beyond the shape and color of the chassis is what kind of plugs to put on it, if any...

As others have observed, folks would be happy with a cheese grater box filled with newer technology--heck think how they could clean up if they made a mac pro kit that fit inside a gutted G5 mac pro--talk about recycling, friend of the earth, and all that. So, all this Hamlet style hand wringing "To be or not to be" seems to be adding a year to the simple task at hand. We know osx can boot on a home-made pc, so how much design is required to get something like this running? I was at one company that always set their sights too high, failed, and accomplished nothing. Sometimes the best is the enemy of the good....

I know I am repeating myself here, but apple could partner will dell or some such to create a workstation class computer with a special apple dongle chip on the mobo to prevent it from running on stock mobos. Heck, dell already had a dongle type thing going with versions of windows that would only install on a dell. Just not seeing the value of an engineering cycle that tries to re-invent things or make some bold leap into an unwanted future like the trash can did.
hi, workflow, some of us still use PCIe cards, for many things .. i use an AES card, but you could add additional Graphics cards, PCIe SSD cards, and the ability to swap out hard drives easily and to have 4 slots internally plus the DVD drive slots can be used for more hard drives / creating RAIDS for video editing ..

so there needs to either be an additiional Breakout Box for these items, something i always thought they would make to compliment the Trashcan / the Recycle Bin - for cards and drives .. haha

i just hope they do not come up with some new propreitary BS that no 3rd party will support ..

cheers john
Old 29th April 2018
  #1971
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Joe Porto's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post

so there needs to either be an additiional Breakout Box for these items, something i always thought they would make to compliment the Trashcan / the Recycle Bin - for cards and drives .. haha
You mean like this? xMac Pro Server Thunderbolt 2 PCIe Enclosure | Sonnet
Old 29th April 2018
  #1972
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Porto View Post
yes, something like that, but made by APPLE .. exactly .. i would expect something more robust than just a TB cable between them .. more intregrated i suppose ..

but a rack mount version would be awesome !!!!
Old 29th April 2018
  #1973
Gear Maniac
 
tsrono's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
I had been thinking the lengthy delay to the next mac pro was due to apple's inclinations--a rational business decision to abandon a niche market. I still think that's the case, but that they changed their mind. From the additional insight into Apple's processes and approaches, I am seeing hints of inward, rather than market, focus, groupthink, and heavy bureaucratic processes that speak more to their ability than inclination.

It will be interesting to see who's predictions were more accurate when the time comes. Even if the most wonderful computer is ultimately delivered, my guess is it will cost more than I want to pay, but I still have a license for logic x and final cut x, so I could provision a nice workstation at some point were I so inclined. I also have cubase, some NI, and some waves stuff--all with mac capability.
All good points, particularly about the inward focus.

I'm also right with you on the 'cost more than I'm willing to pay' for multiple reasons. I abandoned Apple already (besides an iPad I've had for years) and though Windows is pretty annoying at times, it seems to be okay for the moment (I'll admit to having considered Linux as well recently). But ultimately the cheaper/second hand space for Apple computers is more what I'm interested in: if they refresh the Mac Mini finally to coincide with the Mac Pro (I'd been on a Mini for almost a decade until last year), and the ever-lowering prices of the current trashcan Mac Pro (getting some sub-$2K deals already).
Old 10th May 2018
  #1974
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
Really? And there I was thinking Real Audio Pros would prefer a fanless design, so that there is no computer noise interfering with their listening environment...


Noise is another reason (apart from speed) why modern pro audio computers should never have any hard disks, SSDs only...


Hard disk based archival storage would preferably be separate from the computer and recording/listening environment, networked, in another room.



A lot of the things that are suggested as 'pro' features in this thread sound like a regression to how things were done with PCs in the 1990s to me.
You put the computer in the machine room. Computers are so central in a studio today so its performance is not to compromise.
Old 10th May 2018
  #1975
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ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsrono View Post
...if they refresh the Mac Mini finally to coincide with the Mac Pro (I'd been on a Mini for almost a decade until last year)...
I still use a mini to show computer things on my large screen tv. It also came in handy at a class reunion--I had some photos and put it into slide show screensaver mode--a great portable computer.

The mini was just inches away from being a pretty good daw host. Quiet in the larger scheme of things, just needed 32 gig ram and a terabyte ssd. But, as inward focus goes, they didn't take the mini beyond being a regular desktop for internet/email/itunes. Too bad, it was a great form factor. I think some wintel desktop companies make a fairly small desktop computer, but I don't know much about them.

Still, for my home hobby studio, there is plenty of room for a mid-sized tower case, so not worth paying a premium for a small form factor.

PS. Just looked at the apple web site. Looks like a mini can get a 1 tb ssd and 16 gig of ram, so probably a good daw for some folks. I have 32 gig because I can, but I don't really know how much of that gets used by cubase, and the stuff I do is pretty small in terms of track count.
Old 10th May 2018
  #1976
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
I have 32 gig because I can, but I don't really know how much of that gets used by cubase, and the stuff I do is pretty small in terms of track count.
Applications/Utility/Activity monitor/ Tab: Memory

there you have all the information about.
Old 14th May 2018
  #1977
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Originally Posted by Tui View Post
Mikael B, your personal attacks are unwarranted. It is you who presents no facts but mere vitriol. Stop doing it.
Having an opinion on how someone argues is not a personal attack.
Old 14th May 2018
  #1978
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johannes2510 View Post

Yes me, not a computer designer or a super expert, a composer that has always use Macs and with some study can understand what to do and lot of people that never have thinking at chose the components for a build can do that with some study, and can have machines that works perfectly for they needs, like mine that is powerfull, silent,'modular' etc.

Those are the facts that I have always speek here:

Apple do show pretending study for rocket science when a total newbe like me, with the help of a pro builder, do a Magic Brand New Mac Pro.

Are no facts all this facts?
Of course they are.
No, these are your opinions and you're very welcome to express them here. But please don't pretend your shallow analysis are based on facts.

Mind you. I don't have a problem with your conclusion. I have a problem with how you present your case. It's lame. That doesn't make you the same, OK?

That said, I'm not saying you couldn't present data on how Apple are not doing their work. But you'd have to find some actual on the field data first. I don't present my own view on this as I don't have these facts. That's quite OK.
Old 14th May 2018
  #1979
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNM View Post

He's just attacking anyone whose opinion he doesn't agree with.
A lazy conclusion. I'm not attacking people. I'm attacking badly presented view points not based on facts. The reason I don't present counter-facts is because I don't have them. I don't pretend I do. That's all there is to this.

Personal views are not facts. Thinking something is true doesn't make that something true. Which doesn't mean there something wrong with sharing your thoughts.

I just humbly ask that we could humbly acknowledge that some things we don't know, certainly about secretive Apple. Then we're even more free to talk crap about Apple without justifying it with that our analysis, based on very little, is the truth and nothing but the truth as it can be known.
Old 14th May 2018
  #1980
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
PS. Just looked at the apple web site. Looks like a mini can get a 1 tb ssd and 16 gig of ram, so probably a good daw for some folks. I have 32 gig because I can, but I don't really know how much of that gets used by cubase, and the stuff I do is pretty small in terms of track count.
I use my Mac Mini (8 gigs RAM, i5, 1 Terabyte fusion drive) for recording and mixing audio in Logic, editing video in FinalCut Pro X, and even more advanced video work (color grading, etc.) in DaVinci Resolve. I haven't encountered any limitations yet, although I'm only recording acoustic music (no virtual instruments) and only a handful of tracks; video work is short and all in HD, not 4K.

I've been very impressed with the Mini's capabilities. I did just get a Mac Pro (2013 model) with 32 gigs of RAM, D700 GPU and 8 core processor for more serious video editing work, but for everyday tasks the Mini performs just as well (and just as fast) as the pro and I haven't yet seen any difference in performance for audio recording, mixing, and editing. Video is another story, of course. ;-)
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