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Tim Cook on Mac Desktop commitment Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 11th April 2018
  #1861
Tui
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsrono View Post

They've done the mini, the cube, the tower, the cylinder...a pyramid next?
Don't give them any ideas!

There are two kinds of people who don't understand the needs of pro users:

- People who aren't pros themselves.

- Wise guys at Apple HQ who wouldn't know a pro if they fell over one.
Old 11th April 2018
  #1862
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

I know I sound like a broken record, but, as many agree, all we need is a more-powerful, expandable, CPU-upgradable cheese grater. My biggest fear is that traditional HD drive bays and PCI slots will be "overlooked". Surely Apple wouldn't dare try to force us into peripheral-upgrade paths we'd prefer to avoid like the Plague?

IMHO, if Apple needs to differentiate itself with the product, this could be achieved simply through its typical over-enginneering approach with a new cheese grater. Just pop high-spec, reliable parts into it and its off-the-shelf robustness will take care of that aspect of things. Sure, make it look pretty if that's what you feel you need to do; just don't sell us short on the things we actually need to get things done, please.

In the meantime, we'll get to move on, upgrade, enjoy our new-found number-crunching power, and Apple's OS and other software will serve to take care of the other side of that differentiation.

Just MHO in case Apple's listening.
Old 15th April 2018
  #1863
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timemist's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Man View Post
I know I sound like a broken record, but, as many agree, all we need is a more-powerful, expandable, CPU-upgradable cheese grater. My biggest fear is that traditional HD drive bays and PCI slots will be "overlooked". Surely Apple wouldn't dare try to force us into peripheral-upgrade paths we'd prefer to avoid like the Plague?
Owner upgradeable/replaceable internal parts are critical. The current trend of soldered everything in Macs is something I have zero interest investing in.

Methods to incorporate current studio gear are critical. A pro machine needs to embrace current studio gear as well as the stuff on the horizon. The machines we want aren't consumer gear, and we're asking for it to not be treated as such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Man View Post
IMHO, if Apple needs to differentiate itself with the product, this could be achieved simply through its typical over-enginneering approach with a new cheese grater. Just pop high-spec, reliable parts into it and its off-the-shelf robustness will take care of that aspect of things. Sure, make it look pretty if that's what you feel you need to do; just don't sell us short on the things we actually need to get things done, please.

In the meantime, we'll get to move on, upgrade, enjoy our new-found number-crunching power, and Apple's OS and other software will serve to take care of the other side of that differentiation.

Just MHO in case Apple's listening.
Let's hope they are listening. Note to Apple: "Pros" are here, commenting. Many of us use Logic and Final Cut and Motion.

Give us modern vision of the classic 5,1 and most of us will be happy. You can make it pretty, but listen to us please and make it functional for our needs. Alas, many of us are worried we are more likely to end up with either the Cube 2.0, Trashcan 2.0, or a one port box that looks like furniture with a 1000 knotted up cords attached to it through adaptor devices.
Old 15th April 2018
  #1864
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Pre-freakin'-cisely, brother!

Amen to that.
Old 15th April 2018
  #1865
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jwh1192's Avatar
and to take it a little further ... please make the FANS easier to clean out ... the 5,1 can be a PITA to get the fans out ... and it should be simple ...

cheers john
Old 16th April 2018
  #1866
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stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post
... please make the FANS easier to clean out ...

Really? And there I was thinking Real Audio Pros would prefer a fanless design, so that there is no computer noise interfering with their listening environment...


Noise is another reason (apart from speed) why modern pro audio computers should never have any hard disks, SSDs only...


Hard disk based archival storage would preferably be separate from the computer and recording/listening environment, networked, in another room.



A lot of the things that are suggested as 'pro' features in this thread sound like a regression to how things were done with PCs in the 1990s to me.
Old 16th April 2018
  #1867
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
Really? And there I was thinking Real Audio Pros would prefer a fanless design, so that there is no computer noise interfering with their listening environment...


Noise is another reason (apart from speed) why modern pro audio computers should never have any hard disks, SSDs only...


Hard disk based archival storage would preferably be separate from the computer and recording/listening environment, networked, in another room.



A lot of the things that are suggested as 'pro' features in this thread sound like a regression to how things were done with PCs in the 1990s to me.
hi, I use all SSD's right now in my 5,1 .. great point on fanless, would love to see this but i am doubtful it would happen .. standing by to see what new innovations we might see in this new design !!!

Slow Running Fans are probably what we will see .. something will be needed to Cool whatever Processor / Graphics inside ..
Old 16th April 2018
  #1868
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stratology's Avatar
 

Not really relevant for the audio part of the pro community, but still interesting: Ars Technica evaluates how well the newly released compatibility with external GPUs works.
Old 16th April 2018
  #1869
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
A lot of the things that are suggested as 'pro' features in this thread sound like a regression to how things were done with PCs in the 1990s to me.
Because they are pro features.
A feature is not pro because is modern, because is post 2XXX, but because is pro.

A wheel works because it is round and was invented looooong time ago and still perfectly works.

The problem with Apple is that they desire to make a better form that is the circle, because they "think different".

It is not possible improve the circle because it's perfect.
You can make a plus-minus perfect circle, but you can't improve the shape-circle.

I'm sure that is possible improve a lot of thing, but not the circle.

On this Apple is not thinking different, it's nonsense thinking .
Old 16th April 2018
  #1870
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
Really? And there I was thinking Real Audio Pros would prefer a fanless design, so that there is no computer noise interfering with their listening environment...
Although I suspect this is a sarcastic statement, fanless design indeed is preferred. However, with the heat coming from current systems, it still is not possible without severe throttling when reaching a certain performance level, or using huge custom designs for spreading the heat, which in many (smaller) control rooms would probably cause a temp issue within a few hours.
That being said, we do not have an issue with fan noise, not even in dual socket systems with 11 fans in them.
Quote:
Noise is another reason (apart from speed) why modern pro audio computers should never have any hard disks, SSDs only...
I agree on the HDDs, I recommend to avoid them if possible, hotswapping backup drives for projects. We do use HDDs which are extremely low noise, they manage well.
Quote:
Hard disk based archival storage would preferably be separate from the computer and recording/listening environment, networked, in another room.
I agree.
Quote:
A lot of the things that are suggested as 'pro' features in this thread sound like a regression to how things were done with PCs in the 1990s to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
Not really relevant for the audio part of the pro community, but still interesting: Ars Technica evaluates how well the newly released compatibility with external GPUs works.
But IMO that setup, aside being a niche solution for people with clear mobile requirements, is a worse solution than any 90ies box full of add-in cards.
Old 17th April 2018
  #1871
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
Really? And there I was thinking Real Audio Pros would prefer a fanless design, so that there is no computer noise interfering with their listening environment...


Noise is another reason (apart from speed) why modern pro audio computers should never have any hard disks, SSDs only...


Hard disk based archival storage would preferably be separate from the computer and recording/listening environment, networked, in another room.



A lot of the things that are suggested as 'pro' features in this thread sound like a regression to how things were done with PCs in the 1990s to me.
There are a fair amount of professional media production facilities that use machine rooms. In those noise is of little concern.
Old 17th April 2018
  #1872
I would actually say noise is a 2ndary concern.. to processing power and card slots!
Let me shove nvidia cards in the thing.. and give me a 28 core xeon or 2 and ill be happy.. like most pros.. .we shove the things in the back room...temp controlled.. and run a keyboard mouse monitor kvm switch to the rig.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
There are a fair amount of professional media production facilities that use machine rooms. In those noise is of little concern.
Old 17th April 2018
  #1873
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stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ataylor View Post
Let me shove nvidia cards in the thing..
Serious question: what's the purpose of Nvidia cards for pro audio?
Old 17th April 2018
  #1874
Have to edit those music montage videos also i do 3d animation and such .. so in my case that't useful.. also they need to replace the cheese grater.. anything less is a non starter in my book.. i want pci slots!
Old 17th April 2018
  #1875
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stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
There are a fair amount of professional media production facilities that use machine rooms. In those noise is of little concern.

Let me re-phrase: if the computers are so poorly designed that they make too much noise for audio production, putting them in a machine room is a common, viable workaround.



I remember the Xserves - never meant for audio, intended as servers that are stored away in a server room. They produced noise like a vacuum cleaner on full blast.
Old 17th April 2018
  #1876
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
Let me re-phrase: if the computers are so poorly designed that they make too much noise for audio production, putting them in a machine room is a common, viable workaround.

I remember the Xserves - never meant for audio, intended as servers that are stored away in a server room. They produced noise like a vacuum cleaner on full blast.
Sure. I also remember a couple of other Macs that were similarly noisy. There are of course other reasons why it might be preferable to stick them in a machine room, as far as I can see at least. You can get away with less cable runs if you consider all that needs to be router, from ethernet to audio to video etc.

But yes, clearly quieter is better, and there's of course the benefit of having the computer in the room ready to connect drives of different types....

So we agree.
Old 18th April 2018
  #1877
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
Serious question: what's the purpose of Nvidia cards for pro audio?
You brought up the eGPU topic, it was a response to that I think. I was thinking the same thing when reading "AMD only".
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
Let me re-phrase: if the computers are so poorly designed that they make too much noise for audio production, putting them in a machine room is a common, viable workaround.
It is not as much poor design, but rather a principle for some studios. Typically it is the fans in converters or HDX cards which cause the noise, or a 480L mainframe. Larger facilities have storage servers as well so you want that room anyway. Many clients put our silent workstations in machine rooms, even if not required, simply because they can an it is a part of their infrastructure.

Quote:
I remember the Xserves - never meant for audio, intended as servers that are stored away in a server room. They produced noise like a vacuum cleaner on full blast.
Yes, especially the small units. Best designed servers ever, almost a shame to put those in a machine room.
The loudest system I ever heard was a quad CPU barebone we used for a chess world champion, that sounded like a 747 taking off and we suggested he put it in another building instead of just another room.
Old 18th April 2018
  #1878
Tui
Gear Guru
 
Tui's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ataylor View Post
... also they need to replace the cheese grater.. anything less is a non starter in my book.. i want pci slots!
This will be interesting to watch. Apple painted themselves into a corner by declaring PCI dead when they introduced the trashcan. Of course, they were wrong (and everybody who pointed out the obvious was right).
Old 18th April 2018
  #1879
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sardi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
Yes, especially the small units. Best designed servers ever, almost a shame to put those in a machine room.
Were there different designs that I'm not remembering?

The ones we had, whilst aesthetically very pleasing, I wouldn't say were 'the best designed servers ever'. They were so long that they poked out past the server rack we had them in. I would have preferred them to be 2U high and not so damn long.

Imagine if they designed a Mac Pro based around that chassis. Make it 3U high for vertical PCIE slots and cram it with everything under the sun.
Old 18th April 2018
  #1880
Tui
Gear Guru
 
Tui's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by sardi View Post

Imagine if they designed a Mac Pro based around that chassis. Make it 3U high for vertical PCIE slots and cram it with everything under the sun.
People have been asking for such a design for decades.

Apple has and always had a selective hearing problem.
Old 18th April 2018
  #1881
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
Best designed servers ever,
We benchmarked every model when they came out: They had abysmal performance compared to super cheap off the shelf PCs running FreeBSD, Linux or even Windows NT. Not surprising as they ran Mac OS X. So in real world use they were pretty much worthless. (Hence them also being a commercial failure).

Alistair
Old 18th April 2018
  #1882
Quote:
Originally Posted by sardi View Post
Were there different designs that I'm not remembering?

The ones we had, whilst aesthetically very pleasing, I wouldn't say were 'the best designed servers ever'. They were so long that they poked out past the server rack we had them in. I would have preferred them to be 2U high and not so damn long.

Imagine if they designed a Mac Pro based around that chassis. Make it 3U high for vertical PCIE slots and cram it with everything under the sun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
We benchmarked every model when they came out: They had abysmal performance compared to super cheap off the shelf PCs running FreeBSD, Linux or even Windows NT. Not surprising as they ran Mac OS X. So in real world use they were pretty much worthless. (Hence them also being a commercial failure).

Alistair
With design I meant the front design, not the form factor or performance. Sorry for the confusion.
I just wanted to say something nice.
Old 19th April 2018
  #1883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Jones Sr View Post
Is the author a 12 year old? He writes like it is his wishlist for Santa Claus.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Jones Sr View Post
Nice as an idea, but very, very far from realistic. There is not a single thought made regarding how components connect and where heat needs to go. They might as well have designed a Louis Vuitton handbag and throw components in it. Nothing but a marketing gimmick to attract site clicks.
Old 19th April 2018
  #1884
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
This will be interesting to watch. Apple painted themselves into a corner by declaring PCI dead when they introduced the trashcan. Of course, they were wrong (and everybody who pointed out the obvious was right).
As I recall, some posters on the Macrumors Mac Pro forum we’re speculating that the real heavy lifting was some how going to be taking place in the Cloud. So the trash can would just be some kind of a smart terminal. Also, because GPUs were where the big advances were taking place, your plugins would eventually take advantage of them. Unfortunately, it soon became clear that both of these possibilities were not happening. I opted for a CPU maxed out FrankenMac Pro off of eBay.

The 2019 Mac Pro won’t be the embarrassment that the trash can was. We just have to hope that Apple is still interested enough in the computer market to do it right this time, even if many audio users might not be able to afford a spanking brand new one.
Old 19th April 2018
  #1885
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Jones Sr View Post
Something I'm getting really tired of seeing is condescending commentators here or in places like Macrumors, saying that 'YOU'RE NOT A PRO' to people who have an interest in a new Mac Pro.
You are not alone

I think there is a problem with the "Apple-Pro" thing, and is that the "aesthetic factor" that is traditionally so important to Apple products, for pro users that don't need to "show to client" nothing, but only the result matter, is totally indifferent.

I mean that in a recording studio control room you can have the hugly PC that you can immagine and that have zero effect on your business.

It appears clear, after 5 years waiting for this damn Mac Pro, that at Apple they can't believe at this simple reality or they refuse anyway to put in second/third priority the aesthetic factor, even if is 5 years that the pro people ask the same thing: stop trying reinvented the well, we need to work... now!

My personal opinion is that this singular psycological phenomenon is done by a well known distortion of reality that is often described as "God complex" or "delusion of grandeur" done by the enormous success that Apple as reach in the last years with iPhones, iPads and services that happen in large part precisely for care alot at aesthetic factor and with very good marketing, martketing that is another factor totally usless in pro sector and can be very bad for them (another thing that they don't understand) and the proof is that with the last declarations the pro people are not rassured but instead they feel insulted (like me and others here) because they do not follow the tendencies but the funcionality.

So the Apple fans, is always my very personal opinion are themselves to a certain extent, "touched" by the same mental-form so the reaction is "if you don't understand the "thinking of God" well... you cannot be a pro"
Old 19th April 2018
  #1886
Tui
Gear Guru
 
Tui's Avatar
All good points. However, I only wished people would realise that I'm always right.

Old 19th April 2018
  #1887
Gear Nut
 

Bu you are!
Old 19th April 2018
  #1888
Tui
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Old 19th April 2018
  #1889
Lives for gear
Hold on, people are still buying macs?

wow, I thought the human race had evolved by now.
Old 19th April 2018
  #1890
Gear Nut
 

I have an "half-evolution" after Macs... Hackintosh

Seriously, maybe it's because I have always use Mac OS's but I found myself better working with than Windows and because I am not anymore a teenager I feel some pain to switch OS, even if I have a Surface pro for use with Staffpad.

Or maybe it's because I am lazy
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