The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Tim Cook on Mac Desktop commitment Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 27th January 2018
  #1771
Lives for gear
 
stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
No, thanks. I just use a Drobo with 12GB online and still 2 slots to go. TM is crap as far as I'm concerned. I keep it turned off all the time and on the old job I've had 10+ assignments getting data back from disks TM "appropriated". Crap, crap, crap. Period.

Erhm, the Drobo is a storage solution, not a backup solution.

The disk you back up to is something entirely different to the software that lets you back up to that disk, and quickly search for and retrieve the backup of an audio file from October 12th, as opposed to the same file in different earlier or later versions.
Old 27th January 2018
  #1772
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
Where do you come up with this stuff? I never said it was an indicator of any kind. However, when talking about the origin of things that were invented at Apple its pretty important to be very specific about the origins of such things. WebKit was a fork. It wasn't invented there. Have they done a lot of work? Of course. But it's like saying Google invented Blink. They didn't. They forked it from WebKit.

Swift? Invented by Apple. WebKit? Not so much.
Where do you come up with this stuff? I never said you said it was an indicator of any kind.

What I did try was to focus on what's relevant and it's not where a library started. Not that this should be ignored, but my point is still that what really matters is how a company like Apple behaves in the open source arena and what they actually do. Who cares if they invented something or not? If they didn't, does that give the tech less value? On the contrary.
Old 27th January 2018
  #1773
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
Erhm, the Drobo is a storage solution, not a backup solution.

The disk you back up to is something entirely different to the software that lets you back up to that disk, and quickly search for and retrieve the backup of an audio file from October 12th, as opposed to the same file in different earlier or later versions.
Clearly you don't use a Drobo.
Old 27th January 2018
  #1774
Lives for gear
 
stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Clearly you don't use a Drobo.
Clearly you don't use Time Machine.
Old 27th January 2018
  #1775
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Where do you come up with this stuff? I never said you said it was an indicator of any kind.

What I did try was to focus on what's relevant and it's not where a library started. Not that this should be ignored, but my point is still that what really matters is how a company like Apple behaves in the open source arena and what they actually do. Who cares if they invented something or not? If they didn't, does that give the tech less value? On the contrary.
You brushed aside my point with "This hardly indicate what Apple have been doing with it since." As noted it wasn't an indicator, it was a statement of fact.

When you're in a discussion/argument with someone about who invented what precision is a good thing.
Old 27th January 2018
  #1776
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
Clearly you don't use Time Machine.
In my use I've found Time Machine very reliable. I also back up to the cloud. I want one quick local backup and other offsite backups. Arq with Backblaze B2 is a fantastic offsite solution.
Old 27th January 2018
  #1777
Lives for gear
 
Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
In my use I've found Time Machine very reliable.
Out of curiosity, are you backing up over the network to a server? Or backing up to a physically attached drive? I've found the latter pretty predictable and the former a minefield. We had a Mac mini running OS X Server acting as a fileserver that would wind up with a corrupt backup within a month or six weeks with great regularity.

Local Time Machine backups have always been fine for me, and presumably the dedicated appliances Apple sold for the purpose as well, but with a NAS of any description? I understand why anyone who shared my experience would be frustrated.
Old 28th January 2018
  #1778
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
Clearly you don't use Time Machine.
I don't need to. I have a few clients that used to use Time Machine that pays me for getting data back after TM wrecks their data. Because it's so "simple". Simplistic is more like it. Which is great money really but I'd rather they pay me for fun work. TM sucks. Period.

This have anything to do with desktops? No. I'll shut up then.
Old 28th January 2018
  #1779
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
You brushed aside my point with "This hardly indicate what Apple have been doing with it since." As noted it wasn't an indicator, it was a statement of fact.

When you're in a discussion/argument with someone about who invented what precision is a good thing.
I'm not discussing who invented what, am I?
Old 28th January 2018
  #1780
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
In my use I've found Time Machine very reliable. I also back up to the cloud. I want one quick local backup and other offsite backups. Arq with Backblaze B2 is a fantastic offsite solution.

Aha? I just prefer to use and recommend real backup programs that don't have "lose all your data by adhering to our dumb suggestions" aspects for normal users. That's all.

Apple's inclination to dumb down great apps they've made (or bought) is one of their worst sides. Their apps, with a few exceptions, is but a shadow of the quality they used to have IMO before. The OS is great though.
Old 28th January 2018
  #1781
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post
Out of curiosity, are you backing up over the network to a server? Or backing up to a physically attached drive? I've found the latter pretty predictable and the former a minefield. We had a Mac mini running OS X Server acting as a fileserver that would wind up with a corrupt backup within a month or six weeks with great regularity.

Local Time Machine backups have always been fine for me, and presumably the dedicated appliances Apple sold for the purpose as well, but with a NAS of any description? I understand why anyone who shared my experience would be frustrated.
External drive. Never tried it over the network. Sounds like I might not want to
Old 28th January 2018
  #1782
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
I'm not discussing who invented what, am I?
You responded to *my* post which was responding to someone who wasn't you. So yeah you were.
Old 29th January 2018
  #1783
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
You responded to *my* post which was responding to someone who wasn't you. So yeah you were.
I can respond to you without taking over your pet focus points. I don't care who invented what. Got it?

Also, you don't get to decide what I'm talking about. Your misinterpretations are yours.
Old 29th January 2018
  #1784
Lives for gear
 
Joe Porto's Avatar
 

Time machine "technically" supports NAS, but the NAS drive must support the Apple file system at the firmware level. The majority of NAS drives...in fact, all but one that I've seen, do not support TM.

The only reliable way to back up over a network is using a Time Capsule, or an Airport Express w/ a USB drive attached.

There are a few features with Time Machine accessible via Terminal that can be found here. May be useful if you are having an issue with an existing backup. IMO, TM is not the best solution for backup, although great for the technically challenged. I've been using CC Cloner for years, and have never had an issue.
Old 31st January 2018
  #1785
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
I can respond to you without taking over your pet focus points. I don't care who invented what. Got it?

Also, you don't get to decide what I'm talking about. Your misinterpretations are yours.
Oh lord.
Old 1st February 2018
  #1786
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
Oh lord.
You main misinterpretation is that I "brushed aside" your point with "This hardly indicate what Apple have been doing with it since." While I accept your experience I also feel this being a little unfair.

With this I rather feel I underlined my focus, that I have repeated multiple times in this discussion, that what is important is what you do with technology rather than just invent it. For example, Apple didn't invent the GUI but they sure started a computer revolution with it. As such what I focus on can co-exist with your focal points. If I quoted you that's because my thought started with what I quoted and then an idea of mine emerged.

That I downplay your focal point shouldn't need to be taken as an attempt on my side to invalidate your notion in itself. Rather it's a hint that your point of view is not the only possible or even the most interesting (for me anyway). This way, ideas within the discussion can co-exist and evolve. That's what I'm interested in.
"Being right" can be very boring when you're searching for knowledge. Which doesn't mean I don't welcome proper information when this is contributed. And your info certainly contributed to the factual knowledge within the larger discussion. That's not bad at all.
Old 1st February 2018
  #1787
Lives for gear
 
jwh1192's Avatar
whats this thread about !!!!
Old 1st February 2018
  #1788
Lives for gear
Well, I continue to want a focus on Apple Mac Desktop commitment, but I guess in lieu of anyone getting in close contact with an iMac Pro (the only new desktop release) we seem to be thinking anything loosely connected to Apple or its adversaries goes.
Old 1st February 2018
  #1789
Deleted 6ccb844
Guest
Gotta admit I have been eyeing up the new MAC pro, simply because I'm not having much of a fun time with Windows 10.. I use visual studio a lot and I've had a lot of crashes, forced updates that have BSOD'ed the machine and I've had to roll back (which never happened once on windows 8), performance is pretty poor across the board.. This machine is a 10 core xeon / m.2 and it usually takes between 1-3 seconds to hit the start screen in W8, now we're talking minutes..

This is a works machine that got updated recently, it literally only ever gets used for application development and maybe the odd browse of GS. You should see how bad it runs on the standard issue I5 laptops.

I tried linux again on my home machine, I've done development for customised versions of RHEL and could I hell get an Aetheros wrapper to work properly with it, when I spent a friday night looking through the code base I knew it was probably time to stop.. Bitwig looks cool, lack of VST's (even though Stein have extended the VST system to include Linux) are not.. Even though it's become more "MAC like" since the IDE version I used many moons ago, it's not a mass supported wide consumer product yet.. It has a lot of potential, but I'd prefer to leave my day job in the day..

I'd of been happy with a Macbook but I need a half decent GPU, but c'mon the iMac Pro is expensive though.. Not in a this is a $10K microphone that would remain relevant for the rest of my life sort of expensive, more like I'm putting down $10K on a car I'll get rid of in a year or two sorta expensive.

Especially when you consider I have a PC that's more powerful and it cost $3000.00 less than their 10 core.. So I factored in it's a self made PC, only right to see how much it would cost to get an equivalent to their 18 core from a system builder (exact same GPU and everything). The system builder came in at $5415.78, the Mac would cost $10,024.16.. Now c'mon that's nearly twice the price and for what exactly? Just for the privilege of Mac OS?

Yeah Xeon's are very expensive I get that much, but maybe they should of gone Ryzen / Threadripper / I9 instead?

I think I'll probably stick with Windows 8 for now and evaluate what's going on in a couple of years, I want to see how the Mac Pro turns out.. If it's a proper modular system which has PCI-E slots available to add your own GPU's RAM / Disks etc. I might be interested. Maybe the iMac pro will go down in price? We'll see.
Old 1st February 2018
  #1790
Lives for gear
 
zephonic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowAMD View Post
Especially when you consider I have a PC that's more powerful and it cost $3000.00 less than their 10 core.. So I factored in it's a self made PC, only right to see how much it would cost to get an equivalent to their 18 core from a system builder (exact same GPU and everything). The system builder came in at $5415.78, the Mac would cost $10,024.16.. Now c'mon that's nearly twice the price and for what exactly? Just for the privilege of Mac OS?
People keep saying this, but I tried to spec out an equivalent workstation over at HP, and it ended up being more expensive, even without the display?

I'd love to see a link to these equivalent-spec-for-half-the-$$$ PC's. I don't know what I'm doing wrong, but I just can't seem to find them.
Old 1st February 2018
  #1791
Deleted 6ccb844
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by zephonic View Post
People keep saying this, but I tried to spec out an equivalent workstation over at HP, and it ended up being more expensive, even without the display?

I'd love to see a link to these equivalent-spec-for-half-the-$$$ PC's. I don't know what I'm doing wrong, but I just can't seem to find them.
I randomly searched for places in the US and found digital storm, the config came out at $6,261 (18 Core Xeon, M.2, 32GB etc. with no monitor).. I had to substitute the RX56 for a GTX 1080 though as that's all they did, they are about the same in benchmarks though.

It took me about 10 minutes to find a system builder in another country that could still do it for about $4K less.
Old 1st February 2018
  #1792
Lives for gear
 
zephonic's Avatar
hmm, I spec’d out a workstation config on Digital Storm with a Xeon W2145, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, and an AMD Radeon WX5100 (8GB) GPU, and without display/wifi/bluetooth/webcam/speakers/keyboard/mouse it comes to $4,261. Not 100% sure if the GPU is identical, but close enough for an idea. Also not sure if it has Thunderbolt ports? It does come with a DVD-writer, though.

The iMac Pro is not for me, but so far it doesn’t seem like bad value. A lot of money, yes, but not expensive for what you get.

Apple does price-gouge in other areas for sure, selling a 2013 6-core MacPro at $2999 is inexcusable. But at this moment, the iMacPro is a good deal if you like the form factor.


https://www.digitalstorm.com/cart/vi...andomid=&S10=1
Old 1st February 2018
  #1793
Lives for gear
 
stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowAMD View Post
.. I've had a lot of crashes, forced updates that have BSOD'ed the machine and I've had to roll back (which never happened once on windows 8), performance is pretty poor across the board.. This machine is a 10 core xeon / m.2 ...
then:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowAMD View Post
Especially when you consider I have a PC that's more powerful and it cost $3000.00 less than their 10 core.. So I factored in it's a self made PC, only right to see how much it would cost to get an equivalent to their 18 core from a system builder (exact same GPU and everything).

So, you have a fundamentally unstable system that has specs that look great on paper, and you want to base your next purchase decision solely on specs on paper, regardless of the real world performance you experienced yourself.
OK.
Old 1st February 2018
  #1794
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted 6ccb844 View Post
This machine is a 10 core xeon / m.2 and it usually takes between 1-3 seconds to hit the start screen in W8, now we're talking minutes..
It doesn't take me minutes to boot into w10 with my 8 core Ryzen 1700 @ 3.7GHz from a SATA SSD, so I doubt it's the OS. Since you're having crashes it seems your hardware/system is at fault, not the OS.

I feel we've seen this for quite some time now: You can get a great hardware setup for X dollars to run either Win 10 or Mac OS, and both operating systems are great. It's just that sometimes we run into issues on both platforms. Sometimes it's incompatible or poorly written software, firmware, or just bad hardware. It happens.

Just buy good components and software that is verified to work together, and then work the problem if/when it appears.
Old 1st February 2018
  #1795
Quote:
Originally Posted by zephonic View Post
an AMD Radeon WX5100 (8GB) GPU, /
Not 100% sure if the GPU is identical, but close enough for an idea.
The iMac Pro with 11+ TFLOPS is in the league of the WX9100 (over 12TFLOPS). The Vega 56 is not directly comparable as it claims to be a pro card, but in the Windows world, Vega 56 typically means gaming cards. There is no WX model with 9TFLOPS.

Regarding Windows, I could give my opinion on this (as I once more do not agree with several statements), but I will not derail this thread even further.
Old 1st February 2018
  #1796
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post

Just buy good components and software that is verified to work together, and then work the problem if/when it appears.

This.

I think it's far too common that both Mac users, definitely newcomers, and PC buyers assume far too much about the machines they believe "should" be good enough for music production. Assumptions are nothing to base purchase decisions on. Pro users typically will know they need to their research and testing.

Last edited by Mikael B; 1st February 2018 at 07:50 PM..
Old 1st February 2018
  #1797
Deleted 6ccb844
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
It doesn't take me minutes to boot into w10 with my 8 core Ryzen 1700 @ 3.7GHz from a SATA SSD, so I doubt it's the OS. Since you're having crashes it seems your hardware/system is at fault, not the OS.

I feel we've seen this for quite some time now: You can get a great hardware setup for X dollars to run either Win 10 or Mac OS, and both operating systems are great. It's just that sometimes we run into issues on both platforms. Sometimes it's incompatible or poorly written software, firmware, or just bad hardware. It happens.

Just buy good components and software that is verified to work together, and then work the problem if/when it appears.
This isn't just on one machine, this is on three or more (some are laptops with default configs).. Not all of them will have defective hardware, also HW issues would show up on other O/S's like Linux and Windows 8 (all of them are fully stable on these OS's)..

So what you're saying is just because you use yours in some limited fashion that one of the largest codebases with bare metal access couldn't have many faults?

As a programmer (who's worked on modified O/S's) and (someone who's been building machines for 20+ years) I'm fully aware it's part of the game.. There's no such thing as bug free large codebases, it's generally to what extent and how it's been written that counts and a lot of failsafe / recovery scenario's injected.

I'm all for giving advice but you're just wandering blindly into a dark hole guessing what's going on without actually having any basis to conclude the actual issues at hand. It's pretty easy to BSOD a machine without having HW faults..

Last edited by Deleted 6ccb844; 1st February 2018 at 07:28 PM..
Old 1st February 2018
  #1798
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted 6ccb844 View Post
So what you're saying is just because you use yours in some limited fashion that one of the largest codebases with bare metal access couldn't have many faults?
I don't know; is that what I said?

I think what I said, or meant to say, was that I am able to boot into Windows in way under a minute. And I'll add to that now: So are a great deal of other people.

Also, this is Gearslutz, not programmerwho'sbeenbuildingmachinesfor20+yearsrunningadvancedscenariosslutz.... which in turn means that my "limited fashion"-usage is probably relevant to this forum, assuming that I use my computer for some sort of DAW production work. And I do think that's a fair assumption. Of course, that's easy for me to say given that I'm me and now talking about myself, and somewhat harder for you to assume since you know less about me than I do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted 6ccb844 View Post
As a programmer and (someone who's been building machines for 20+ years) I'm fully aware it's part of the game.. There's no such thing as bug free large codebases, it's generally to what extent and how it's been written that counts and a lot of failsafe / recovery scenario's injected.
I know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted 6ccb844 View Post
I'm all for giving advice but you're just wandering blindly into a dark hole guessing what's going on without actually having any basis to conclude the actual issues at hand.
Thanks for the compliment.

Since the above seems to be opposing my advice, is it fair to say that you disagree with the advice to users here to "buy good components and software that is verified to work together, and then work the problem if/when it appears."???

Seems like a pretty good piece of advice to me...!?
Old 1st February 2018
  #1799
Deleted 6ccb844
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
I don't know; is that what I said?

I think what I said, or meant to say, was that I am able to boot into Windows in way under a minute. And I'll add to that now: So are a great deal of other people.

Also, this is Gearslutz, not programmerwho'sbeenbuildingmachinesfor20+yearsrunningadvancedscenariosslutz.... which in turn means that my "limited fashion"-usage is probably relevant to this forum, assuming that I use my computer for some sort of DAW production work. And I do think that's a fair assumption. Of course, that's easy for me to say given that I'm me and now talking about myself, and somewhat harder for you to assume since you know less about me than I do.
I understand, this is of course an audio orientated forum.. But whether I'm right or wrong here, it does seem at times people look down on others without any basis to do so. Although it's easy to misread context in text formats and without being able to follow up quickly to resolve a matter things can go awry.

I'm glad many aren't having issues with it, but I tend to use mine as multi-production machines for code bases with massive amounts of libraries working with some bare metal API's like Vulkan for example..

Our primary machines are well tested workstations that have been thoroughly vetted / made to be pushed (similar HW to servers) and once W10 is going it's fine (unless they push unwanted updates that have cause a few issues), it tends to be the laptops (HP Elitebooks / Dell Latitudes etc.) that suffer the most.

My home machine is the exact same config as my work machine, 14 Core E5-2697 V3, 32GB DDR, GTX 1080, Corsair M.2's in a raid array, Crucial DDR4 (ECC), 860W Corsair Platinum .. They are some of the most resilliant and performant setups I've come across.

Quote:

Thanks for the compliment.

Since the above seems to be opposing my advice, is it fair to say that you disagree with the advice to users here to "buy good components and software that is verified to work together, and then work the problem if/when it appears."???

Seems like a pretty good piece of advice to me...!?
Sure, but there's a wide variety of "good components" generally most problems can be avoided by getting a decent PSU, with modern day CPU's take your pick.. There was a lot of issues with some of the earlier X-99 platforms, which got sorted through various bios upgrades.

AMD GPU's can be an interesting venture on Linux, so I'd probably stay Nvidia for that..

As for music computers, the main portion of it is your DAW and as long as it's certified to work on X version you should mainly be fine.. It's not like I'm trying to run pro tools on Wine here .. (Although I have tried it, didn't go too well)..

When it came to using UAD FW devices I only used the specified TI cards as it's been known not to work well with specific chipsets.. That's one scenario where you have to use compatible HW.

Anyway when it comes to Windows 10 it's as much political as it is technical, I don't like the fact they've stopped security updates if you have a Ryzen or new age Intel (on W8).. It's just an arbitrary software limitation no matter what excuses they have, plus there's many more..

It's kinda like when the Xbox first got released and they tried to push everyone to be online all the time.. Which is fine until you take your X-box away with you and can't use it.. Sorry, yes I'm going off on a tangent here but for me at least with the decisions MS keep making every time I look I become more and more inclined to switch O/S..

I think the Mac Pro could be the perfect compromise for me, if they build it as a modular system (like they keep planning) where you can add your own PCI-E devices.

Last edited by Deleted 6ccb844; 1st February 2018 at 08:47 PM..
Old 1st February 2018
  #1800
Lives for gear
 
Joe Porto's Avatar
 

Just a heads up...Micro Center and some other vendors are selling the base iMac Pro for $3999.
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump