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Tim Cook on Mac Desktop commitment Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 15th January 2017
  #151
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I've read a few rumors of an iMac Pro or an iMac like desktop with "Pro" features such as muti-core processors beyond four-core and pro level GPUs. It sounds a little whacky but there are a few things that give some credence to the idea. First is the discontinuing of the Thunderbolt Display and Apple selling an LG monitor as it's replacement. Next is Tim Cook's comment that the iMac is the best desktop Apple has ever made. Isn't the Mac Pro a desktop computer? So why is Tim Cook not mentioning it? Maybe because Apple is going to drop the trash can Mac Pro and, as others have suggested, whittle the Mac line down to it's MacBooks and iMacs. Finally, the rumor that Apple is thinking of moving it's Pro desktop computer assembly back to Asia may be because that's where the iMac is assembled. So that would be a no brainer. Apple wouldn't actually be moving the production of one of it's computer lines back out of the country but discontinuing one and enhancing another. A little slight of hand for it's corporate citizen image and it would maintain some value for the discontinued trash can Macs.
Old 15th January 2017
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
I'm not sure what you mean. I quoted him, verbatim.

Not with one word did he mention the MP machines, or the target customers. I honestly get a sense that he is out of touch. He multiplies the worst of what Apple always has been - control-freakish and with a propensity for placing design over function - while missing out on the creative genius and longterm vision of Steve Jobs. Apple became great and a leader in tech because they could walk and chew gum at the same time. It seems those times are over.
That's what I mean. I disagree with your interpretation of what he said. He doesn't mention the Mac Pro because it hasn't been updated and he is aware of that fact and so are we. Also he's addressing the employees, not us!

The iMacs actually are great machines. Have you seen that 5k display up close? For a quite large number of Pro users it's powerful enough. I don't mean to say that your perspective on this has no weight, but I disagree with it.

Apple never places design over function. Even if you don't like the solutions the Apple designers have thought about functionality (Using iTunes could make you think otherwise). But they may still make products that doesn't fit Pro users and that is still the problem.

I don't understand why you need to make up problems when the situation is already as dire as it is. Tim is aware of the desktop. But why have Apple failed Pro users? I call BS on the theory that we are too few. Pro users have a tremendous influence over other people on what they use. I don't see Apple losing anything on building great machines that Pros would pay a premium price for, even if the numbers were small compared to iPhones. All those ideas are not based on real data and remain layman speculations.

But if Apple have a limited number of employees that can be focused only on a limited number of projects that's a real problem, especially if some of the projects are like really big. They have more than 100.000 employees, but how many are in the design (in which I'd include technical design) and research teams I don't know. I don't think it's easy to find that calibre of people and not everyone is cut out for Apple.

More importantly what can Pro users do about this? I think, as I've said previously, that Apple listens to complaints. Complain away or walk away. That seems to be the 2 most promising paths to take where the former would also mean making the best of the situation as it stands. Which for me means building a music computer that runs macOS.
Old 15th January 2017
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastlanephil View Post
I've read a few rumors of an iMac Pro or an iMac like desktop with "Pro" features such as muti-core processors beyond four-core and pro level GPUs. It sounds a little whacky but there are a few things that give some credence to the idea. First is the discontinuing of the Thunderbolt Display and Apple selling an LG monitor as it's replacement. Next is Tim Cook's comment that the iMac is the best desktop Apple has ever made. Isn't the Mac Pro a desktop computer? So why is Tim Cook not mentioning it? Maybe because Apple is going to drop the trash can Mac Pro and, as others have suggested, whittle the Mac line down to it's MacBooks and iMacs. Finally, the rumor that Apple is thinking of moving it's Pro desktop computer assembly back to Asia may be because that's where the iMac is assembled. So that would be a no brainer. Apple wouldn't actually be moving the production of one of it's computer lines back out of the country but discontinuing one and enhancing another. A little slight of hand for it's corporate citizen image and it would maintain some value for the discontinued trash can Macs.
I don't see that happening, but must accept it's a possibility among others. Rumors are quite often just that. What Tim said was only that the iMac is a great machine, which it is. He didn't say that the desktops of the future would be iMacs.

It would actually make more sense to build on the Mac Pro and adapt it more to what Pro users want.
Old 15th January 2017
  #154
Tui
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
I don't understand why you need to make up problems when the situation is already as dire as it is.
I don't think one needs to "make up problems". You just said yourself that the situation is dire. (And iTunes is the spawn of the devil, no doubt )

This thread is about Tim Cook, right? Well, I thought right away when he was announced successor that Apple would slowly slide into irrelevance, over time. Like a Sony #2 . However, I didn't expect it to happen so quickly. Of course, Apple is still mega rich and all that, but they're feasting on a legacy. Apple needs new ideas, fresh blood, bold vision. Tim Cook isn't going to provide that, anymore than Steve Ballmer did for MSFT.

In a bizarre twist of irony, Steve Jobs chose for a successor exactly the type of CEO he derided throughout his career: A bean counter. Listen to his words, he practically is describing Tim Cook.

Old 15th January 2017
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
I don't think one needs to "make up problems". You just said yourself that the situation is dire. (And iTunes is the spawn of the devil, no doubt )

This thread is about Tim Cook, right?
No, this thread is about Apple and desktops. Tim just happens to be the CEO and things he says are interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
Well, I thought right away when he was announced successor that Apple would slowly slide into irrelevance, over time. Like a Sony #2 . However, I didn't expect it to happen so quickly. Of course, Apple is still mega rich and all that, but they're feasting on a legacy. Apple needs new ideas, fresh blood, bold vision. Tim Cook isn't going to provide that, anymore than Steve Ballmer did for MSFT.

In a bizarre twist of irony, Steve Jobs chose for a successor exactly the type of CEO he derided throughout his career: A bean counter. Listen to his words, he practically is describing Tim Cook.
Fair enough, but my point is that bean counter or not Tim is not relying on himself for design guidance. There are other people working at Apple for that. I don't think it's as bad as you think it is, but a year from now I might.
Old 15th January 2017
  #156
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And yet sales of their computers are up 2.4% year on year. "The sky is falling" is hardly born out by reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
I don't think one needs to "make up problems". You just said yourself that the situation is dire. (And iTunes is the spawn of the devil, no doubt )

This thread is about Tim Cook, right? Well, I thought right away when he was announced successor that Apple would slowly slide into irrelevance, over time. Like a Sony #2 . However, I didn't expect it to happen so quickly. Of course, Apple is still mega rich and all that, but they're feasting on a legacy. Apple needs new ideas, fresh blood, bold vision. Tim Cook isn't going to provide that, anymore than Steve Ballmer did for MSFT.

In a bizarre twist of irony, Steve Jobs chose for a successor exactly the type of CEO he derided throughout his career: A bean counter. Listen to his words, he practically is describing Tim Cook.

Old 15th January 2017
  #157
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Maybe one reason why it takes so long to release new Macs is that some formerly important people on the Mac team now work for Tesla.
Old 15th January 2017
  #158
Tui
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Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
And yet sales of their computers are up 2.4% year on year.
Huh..?

Apple Q4 2016 financial results: iPhone, iPad, Mac sales down again - News - Macworld UK
Old 15th January 2017
  #159
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The Mac customer base has changed over time. The executive dashing through the airport with his/her slimmed down whatever only needs the trapping of a powerful machine. Airspeeds, Touchbars, Hermes watch bands, colorful iPhones ......
We're fortunate that Apple is even still developing Logic.

I don't want an "all in one" in my studio. The screen goes - bring the whole thing into the genius bar. A fan right there next to where you monitor. Apple's obsession with thin extends to the iMac - they've jammed so much stuff into that sliver of a machine that when it get's pumping, that fan spins up - and you, yes you, bought the quietist signal chain and treated your room. I'd like to be able to keep the CPU away from the main part of the studio. Nope.

I am also a realist. That's why it's so easy for me to see that Apple is essentially a phone company that sells computers. When do really think was the last time Cook actually thought about Logic ? Garage Band maybe. Kids can make ring tones and beats and or backing tracks to Youtube videos. I'm holding on to my pimped out MacMini until it dies. After that, I'll be forced to by a TouchBar Pro or an i'Thin.

Cdlt
Old 15th January 2017
  #160
Tui
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melgueil View Post
We're fortunate that Apple is even still developing Logic.
Very true.
Old 15th January 2017
  #161
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Worldwide Mac Sales Remain Steady in 4Q 2016 Amid Continuing PC Market Decline - Mac Rumors

"During the fourth quarter of 2016, Apple shipped an estimated 5.4 million Macs worldwide, up from 5.3 million in the year-ago quarter for an estimated growth of 2.4 percent. During the quarter, Apple held 7.5 percent of the market, up from 7 percent during the fourth quarter of 2015, making it the number five PC vendor in the world."


Old 15th January 2017
  #162
Deleted 6ccb844
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Very interesting looking through all the opinions on this thread.

I came to wonder, doth I sit in a bubble upon the clouds? I turn on the PC (windows 8.1), double click the DAW icon and start recording / mixing. There's nothing more to it and it's constantly the same procedure over and over again.

I bought a mac mini (I7 Quad) originally for the exceptional range of interfaces available to Mac and also originally because UAD did not work on Windows. At the time I had an Apogee Duet and Symphony with a UAD 2 Sattelite Duo. The Duet constantly kept re-setting itself, the UAD card worked when it felt like it and the ironic thing is for an originally Mac based product (Sattelite) when I bought the "UA approved" FW card for PC it worked first time every time on Windows.

I still covet thy neighbors interface, a Symphony for the PC would be bliss. Although luckily MOTU upped their game to a sufficient enough amount to make the switch..

Last edited by Deleted 6ccb844; 15th January 2017 at 10:32 PM..
Old 15th January 2017
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post

"...you can pack a lot more performance in a desktop — the largest screens, the most memory and storage, a greater variety of I/O, and fastest performance. So there are many different reasons why desktops are really important, and in some cases critical, to people.
Quote:
"The current generation iMac is the best desktop we have ever made and its beautiful Retina 5K display is the best desktop display in the world."
If the reference is the most memory, storage, a greater variety of I/O and fastest performance (and he says it is), it simply doesn't make sense to say the the iMacs are the best desktop they've ever made.

From http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/19/1...ktop-computers :

"The Mac mini was updated nearly every year from 2007 to 2012, and then once in 2014. Meanwhile, the Mac Pro was updated nearly every year from 2006 to 2013."

So the change (downgrading the Mac Mini instead of upgrading it, slowing down the upgrade intervals between new Mac Pros massively) seems to have started around the end of the Jobs era. The Logic development also suggests that Apple is more about market share and pop culture now (than it used to be).

I'm sure Logic will be around for many years, but the whole thing with Macs looks like planned obsolescence.
Old 15th January 2017
  #164
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I want to be somewhat optimistic and not so dark, but that damned "Hello...again!" was downright insulting. "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain..." right from the Wizard of Oz.

The appropriate song would be the Beatles "Hello Goodbye". I am currently running 16g of RAM - and I'm really bumping up against the limit. Not everyone does need 32g or RAM - and I understand that, but I feel I do if I'm going to upgrade.

So we're encouraged to marry the Touchbar Pro with a 5k display ....so we can look down at this little touchbar to run the apps. Everything I need to do is a mouse click away - or available on my Nucleus control surface. Those MacBooks are an insult to at least the "creative" Pro community - unless, "Pro" means a business exec running around with a supercharged light notebook that can blaze through MS Office spreadsheets, docs and Powerpoints. Then again, any half way decent Windows laptop can do that.

I'm afraid we're hosed ..

Cdlt
Old 15th January 2017
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melgueil View Post
So we're encouraged to marry the Touchbar Pro with a 5k display ....so we can look down at this little touchbar to run the apps. Everything I need to do is a mouse click away - or available on my Nucleus control surface.
But even if you use a mouse and a controller or and a large screen... I think it's great if an extra set of assignable small squares can be used in addition to what we have. Logic has 1400+ key commands, and I'd like to use more of them than I can memorise. And the Touch Bar as app sensitive, and probably even window sensitive, so it can display a set of different note lengths in the score editor and a different set of articulation switches on the piano roll, and a set off available CC controller number when you edit automation. Even if there may be only, say 12(??) small touch "squares", they represent the value of much more than 12 key commands, because they potentially represent 12 dedicated commands per window - per app. I like them (or think I will if I'll get a Mac or keyboard with touch bar one day). And they seem to be particularly useful when travelling without controllers and large displays.
Old 15th January 2017
  #166
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I can't imagine them winning me over for the next round of desktops. I've been a long time Mac Mini user, and have no intentions of getting rid of my current one (actually planning on upgrading it with SSDs this year), but with how clear it is that Apple is planning on treating all Macs as 'premium' machines going forward (re: huge price increases on new Macbooks despite cutting of ports and ridiculously minor improvements to performance) I think they'll continue that trend with the iMac, Mini, and Mac Pro.

But, the lack of updates isn't all just Cook, a lot of it has to do with the simple facts of course of Macs aren't where Apple makes their money or their name anymore, and that PCs as a whole are stagnating. Right now a good computer from 5 years ago is near as reliable and fast as the brand new ones. Windows, Mac, whatever, the processing isn't improving much and so there's not much need to update computers every 6 months (though the Windows world still does, thinner, lighter, better screens, better battery life, etc.) none of those things are, in regards to creating music on the computer, necessary. I think nearly all of what I've said here has already been stated elsewhere ITT...but the snark of the original Cook quote is what irks me for the most part. He sounds like Trump does: "Oh, don't you worry, we've got good stuff on the way, the best stuff on the way, don't even worry, you'll be wowed when you see it, the best people are working on it, you wouldn't believe the stuff they'll have when you see it! Look, we've got a roadmap okay!"

All that said, I'm pretty sure in a few years when it makes sense for me to upgrade my music computer, I'll be switching to Windows. Unless I've just got tons of expendable income to blow on a ridiculously powerful Mac Pro, I'm paying attention to the Windows PCs going forward.
Old 15th January 2017
  #167
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My understanding is that Windows still has some key pieces missing, such as low jitter MIDI and built-in support for class compliant multichannel USB audio.
Old 15th January 2017
  #168
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like many here I'm over a barrel down to being a logic user.. When I read the tea leaves, they tell me my 2012 mac mini will be locked out of OS updates sooner rather than later (like LPX was)!!!!
I don't think the mac desktop as a form is about to implode anytime soon, but I do believe there's no viable route for us audio guys to follow/buy, the trash can is certainly not the right fit, and the fixed architecture of the imac isn't either..
Well I'm going down the hack route again, I can buy a really powerful machine for the price of my Mac Mini(also really looking forward to going back to having a tower ).... it will give me a 3/4 year window of time to see what apple will do
Old 15th January 2017
  #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melgueil View Post
We're fortunate that Apple is even still developing Logic.

Cdlt
That's how I feel as well. The moment they start neglecting Logic I will switch back to Windows.

So far, Logic has been seeing a steady development program, but who knows for how much longer this will be the case..

I have PT as well and prefer Logic due to its workflow and loads of native good plugins and VIs, but recently I have been spending more time with PT so I won't get caught off guard. I wish Apple would sell Logic to someone else. One can dream...

I hope I'm wrong and Apple introduces in 2017 a brand new mini with quad core i7 and a new mac pro for those who need it. My late 2012 mini is starting to show signs of ageing. Fingers crossed.
Old 15th January 2017
  #170
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The hackintosh option is the best thing to happen to Mac power users since the move to Intel. heck maybe the best thing ever. There's no magic sauce in Mac hardware, and being freed from Apple's exorbitant price markup is a game changer. These are hard times to rely on Mac hardware, but wonderful times to rely on osx.
Old 15th January 2017
  #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
But even if you use a mouse and a controller or and a large screen... I think it's great if an extra set of assignable small squares can be used in addition to what we have. Logic has 1400+ key commands, and I'd like to use more of them than I can memorise. And the Touch Bar as app sensitive, and probably even window sensitive, so it can display a set of different note lengths in the score editor and a different set of articulation switches on the piano roll, and a set off available CC controller number when you edit automation. Even if there may be only, say 12(??) small touch "squares", they represent the value of much more than 12 key commands, because they potentially represent 12 dedicated commands per window - per app. I like them (or think I will if I'll get a Mac or keyboard with touch bar one day). And they seem to be particularly useful when travelling without controllers and large displays.
I have over 128 Logic Key Commands programmed into my Nucleus. Use them all the time. No need for Touchbar.

Cdlt
Old 15th January 2017
  #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelpv View Post
That's how I feel as well. The moment they start neglecting Logic I will switch back to Windows.

So far, Logic has been seeing a steady development program, but who knows for how much longer this will be the case..

I have PT as well and prefer Logic due to its workflow and loads of native good plugins and VIs, but recently I have been spending more time with PT so I won't get caught off guard. I wish Apple would sell Logic to someone else. One can dream...

I hope I'm wrong and Apple introduces in 2017 a brand new mini with quad core i7 and a new mac pro for those who need it. My late 2012 mini is starting to show signs of ageing. Fingers crossed.
Hear y'a. Love Logic, but lately having thoughts like "could I move to PT?" What would I be giving up?" I'm ok for the next 2-3 years or so. I would think if they are going to pull the plug or mothball either the desktop or Logic itself - we would have enough runway to get out in time.

Cdlt
Old 15th January 2017
  #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelpv View Post
The moment they start neglecting Logic
I don't think they'll neglect Logic as such - the problem i think we may see more and more is that they will be neglecting Logic users who aren't work with mainstream music - including people who make mainstream music (eg film composers, score users), but which may be a small group compared with the EDM and hiphop guys.
Old 15th January 2017
  #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
I don't think they'll neglect Logic as such - the problem i think we may see more and more is that they will be neglecting Logic users who aren't work with mainstream music - including people who make mainstream music (eg film composers, score users), but which may be a small group compared with the EDM and hiphop guys.
Would you care to elaborate? I'm not sure I'm following you. I, for one, use Logic to produce really any type of music, as I work for TV and never know where the next brief will take me. I find Logic suitable for any genre I ever needed to produce, from orchestral to hip hop. Maybe I'm missing something?
Old 15th January 2017
  #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
I don't think they'll neglect Logic as such - the problem i think we may see more and more is that they will be neglecting Logic users who aren't work with mainstream music - including people who make mainstream music (eg film composers, score users), but which may be a small group compared with the EDM and hiphop guys.
I just installed the last Logic update from 6 months ago (oops). One small but encouraging thing was the addition of a bunch of Chinese classical instruments. Not that I like the sound of cats dying, mind you.
But if Logic catches on there, we're pretty safe. They vastly outnumber even the EDM pups.
Old 16th January 2017
  #176
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Personally I'm not really sure, why there are innovations (and Tim's possible lack of it compared to Steve) or some increased efforts for a development of widely accepted DAW computers mentioned in this context.
The issue, as I perceive it, is that they simply screwed their top end Mac Pros by too much innovation, which no professional really asked for.

Only thing at their legacy Mac Pro, which they should change IMO, was its height to allow horizontal mounting to 19" rack.
Besides of that, just timely delivery of evolved Intel hardware (incl. all the interfaces like USB 3 and TB) will be sufficient for the majority of pro users to stop complaints. In another words don't break working things.
There should be just thick line between computers for home and mobile users and their top of the line for working professionals.
For the first part of line-up, they could innovate as they like, palm sized computers, lot of weird accessories, 3mm thick displays, cylindrical cases for $10000 premium computer for showoff... and all that stuff, which gives them publicity and impress geeks and hipsters during keynotes and CES.
Along this, there should be top of the heap normal workstations with powerful PS and good airflow, which belongs under desk or rack and can be fitted with the fastest hardware of the day.. and allow you to connect any peripheral, you'd need for your work.

Of course all of that is just my impression, from projects and sites, where I worked.. from conversations with people either ditching whole platform (for example for demanding video, film and broadcast work) or others, who are just fixed at their latest true workstations and postponed its upgrade several times (which is of course harder every day due to missing interfaces) or upgraded to 2013 cylinder just at place, where it was totally necessary and I'm certain, if there will be normal workstation, they'd do that years ago.
Hackintosh is nice workaround, but not really right answer for those people (eg. try to call any tech. support and admit, you're using Hackintosh).

For me personally, it was just last that bit for the decision of making gradual shift to PCs (HP Z-series) and to cross-platform software, where it is possible.
And yes, I installed and managed couple of 2013 MPs, enjoyed woes with peripherial like video I/O and Fibre channel cards, GPUs, overheating of some initial models..

Maybe they introduce something in the future, but I'm afraid.. they won't return back there and it simply won't be a workstation to me.. although lower models like iMac might be sufficient for lot of folks which are fine with the capabilities of current desktop/notebook CPUs.

Michal
Old 16th January 2017
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelpv View Post
Would you care to elaborate? I'm not sure I'm following you. I, for one, use Logic to produce really any type of music, as I work for TV and never know where the next brief will take me. I find Logic suitable for any genre I ever needed to produce, from orchestral to hip hop. Maybe I'm missing something?
Suitable... of course, Logic will play back the notes you put into it. But it's a known fact that almost none of the wishes score users have been discussing since around the Logic 8/9 and earlier has been implemented, and people who have been wanting improvements regarding articulation control and CC automation for sample libraries have the same experience. That's probably why so many of these users use Cubase instead of Logic. And composition oriented functions isn't a priority either. But we're off topic now - here are some threads/polls, listing changes and improvements some of us have been hoping to see for years:

Favourite Logic Pro wishes, part one
Favourite Logic Pro wishes, part two
Old 16th January 2017
  #178
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Thanks for the reply and sorry for going OT.
Old 16th January 2017
  #179
What ever Apple brings on with the the Mac Pros, just please don't drop Thunderbolt, so that I can still use my expensively updated hardware, that I needed to get because they dropped PCIe. There is no need that also hardware becomes "agile" developing = changing every 1-2 years.
Old 16th January 2017
  #180
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Thunderbolt runs on USBC. All 4 ports on the MacBook Pro are TB3 enabled. So I doubt you will have any problem.
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