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Tim Cook on Mac Desktop commitment Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 16th January 2018
  #1681
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post

End of the Hackintosh?
Old 16th January 2018
  #1682
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charlieclouser's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanRand View Post
End of the Hackintosh?
Been there.... back in the Mac Clone era of the 1990's. When the door slams shut, it will be sudden and brutal. Still, existing Hackintosh machines will still continue to work, but with no possibility of ongoing OS updates. Apple including stuff like "secure enclave" chips etc. into future Mac models will be the first tolling of the bell for Hackintosh setups.
Old 16th January 2018
  #1683
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post
I suspect the post you replied to was referring to coprocessors Apple has been using lately to drive ancillary functionality, not the main CPU. I am curious whether Apple will ever take the leap of running more of the system services on an A-series processor for battery-life reasons on laptops. There are some non-trivial hurdles to doing so, most of them software-related rather than strict architectural limits.

There’s less obvious reason to do likewise in a desktop, except where isolation is strictly desirable as for security purposes. Raw performance and compatibility will keep Intel in the driver’s seat in the near term, with AMD having a shot if and only if they get on the Thunderbolt bandwagon.
Ah, I wasn't aware of the T2 chip being in there.
Well, that is a different ballpark, pretty smart as it fits bridging their own OS with dedicated controllers instead of depending on various 3rd party controllers - which is a compromise in quality and functionality as well as a bi*** to manage.
Also, it is a step towards the end of Hackintosh.
However, the jump to a full CPU is large. The A11 is powerful, but it is also aimed at different tasks compared to a "regular" CPU.
Time will tell, I'll leave that discussion to MacRumors, MacGossip and MacVapourware for now.
Old 16th January 2018
  #1684
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Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
The A11 is powerful, but it is also aimed at different tasks compared to a "regular" CPU.
It may have slightly different design constraints, given the form factor of the devices it powers, but they’re running very much the same kinds of tasks as a laptop or desktop. iOS and macOS share a huge amount of code and the same development tools and techniques.

The difference in a basic laptop or desktop is the hardware surrounding the CPU, much more so than the capability of the chip itself. The high end is the area where Intel clearly has something to offer that Apple isn’t yet designing in-house, so I take Apple’s commitment to Pro hardware as a sign they’re not ready to switch just yet.
Old 16th January 2018
  #1685
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MusiKLover's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post
It may have slightly different design constraints, given the form factor of the devices it powers, but they’re running very much the same kinds of tasks as a laptop or desktop. iOS and macOS share a huge amount of code and the same development tools and techniques.

The difference in a basic laptop or desktop is the hardware surrounding the CPU, much more so than the capability of the chip itself. The high end is the area where Intel clearly has something to offer that Apple isn’t yet designing in-house, so I take Apple’s commitment to Pro hardware as a sign they’re not ready to switch just yet.
I hear what you are saying, but if Intel in fact must go back to the drawing board regarding the latest low-level discrepancies, what a market opportunity for Apple to begin (or continue to pursue) formal contemplation of serious Multicore chips with fast Clock Speeds. They might be able to implement such microprocessors faster than Intel at this rate! They certainly have the Cash on the Balance Sheet to do it. Heat will be the issue, but imagine Xeon-type chips in the iPad Pro if true cross-pollination could be engineered to work. It’s a long-shot, but who knows. I bet keeping an eye on Apple’s Job Board could give an indication, though such positions might be so high in the food chain that there are no reqs.
Old 16th January 2018
  #1686
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
There is no source, it's pure speculation but I can assure you I am not the only one making this speculation. Look at the way Apple operates, more and more they are designing the core pieces themselves. The A11 is ridiculously powerful. We have no idea what they've got in the works but having their Mac line use their own processor design makes complete sense. They're certainly not going to switch off of Intel to AMD.
I think they really would like to have the MACs moved to IOS instead of OSX. Surely they are from a technical standpoint more or less the same at the same time very different.
Old 16th January 2018
  #1687
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
I think they really would like to have the MACs moved to IOS instead of OSX. Surely they are from a technical standpoint more or less the same at the same time very different.
Let's hope not. iOS is designed for handhelds and all of the constraints that go with that. Yes the core libraries are the same and they both run the same unix underneath but the whole programming model is totally different as is the user interface layer.
Old 16th January 2018
  #1688
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Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
I think they really would like to have the MACs moved to IOS instead of OSX. Surely they are from a technical standpoint more or less the same at the same time very different.
Most of what differentiates iOS from macOS relates to either the opportunity to start again without compatibility constraints, the expectation that an iOS device is personal where a Mac may be shared, and the touch experience for a handheld instead of a keyboard/mouse model more appropriate to a desk.

There may well be more opportunities for synergy between them, but there are great reasons why they’re different animals that aren’t going away.
Old 16th January 2018
  #1689
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
Let's hope not. iOS is designed for handhelds and all of the constraints that go with that. Yes the core libraries are the same and they both run the same unix underneath but the whole programming model is totally different as is the user interface layer.
That is just a gui thing. But the value of the control of the system for apple is enormous, think about the aspect that all software sales for MAC's need to go through their app shop and the revenue that would bring to apple! Sure they will loose some customers, but when the profit from software sales passes the hardware it is likely to happen. Or at least the bean-counters will try.
Old 16th January 2018
  #1690
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
That is just a gui thing. But the value of the control of the system for apple is enormous, think about the aspect that all software sales for MAC's need to go through their app shop and the revenue that would bring to apple! Sure they will loose some customers, but when the profit from software sales passes the hardware it is likely to happen. Or at least the bean-counters will try.
I don't see a day where they will force all software through the Mac App Store. Unless of course they really open up what an app sold there is allowed to access on the system.

"That is just a gui thing"...uh well no not really. The interaction model and the way resources are allocated (speaking non-gui here) is totally different.
Old 16th January 2018
  #1691
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
I don't see a day where they will force all software through the Mac App Store. Unless of course they really open up what an app sold there is allowed to access on the system.

"That is just a gui thing"...uh well no not really. The interaction model and the way resources are allocated (speaking non-gui here) is totally different.
Not really, they are both home-brewed Berkeley UNIX'es.
Old 17th January 2018
  #1692
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
Not really, they are both home-brewed Berkeley UNIX'es.
That's just the base Darwin layer. There is so much more on top of that.
Old 17th January 2018
  #1693
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MusiKLover's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
That is just a gui thing. But the value of the control of the system for apple is enormous, think about the aspect that all software sales for MAC's need to go through their app shop and the revenue that would bring to apple! Sure they will loose some customers, but when the profit from software sales passes the hardware it is likely to happen. Or at least the bean-counters will try.
Yes, and my iPhone 8’s A11 Single Core Geekbench 4 Score of 4249 is better than most older Xeon machines. Multicore is even decent, scoring close to 10,500. No fans of course. Spectre update installed, in case you’re wondering.
Old 17th January 2018
  #1694
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mininoyz View Post
Some articles even say the iPhone 8 smokes the 2017 Macbook Pro's i7.
They are wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
Huge load of fanboy wank.

It is just a chip that does a few functions that other chips usually do, nothing to write home about.
Old 17th January 2018
  #1695
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by NamesAreAPain View Post
They are wrong.



Huge load of fanboy wank.

It is just a chip that does a few functions that other chips usually do, nothing to write home about.
Whatever you say Chet.
Old 18th January 2018
  #1696
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
I think they really would like to have the MACs moved to IOS instead of OSX. Surely they are from a technical standpoint more or less the same at the same time very different.
No, iOS and macOS are not "more or less the same" even if you do qualify it. That's just contradiction. The most fitting word is "related", but that doesn't have to mean "the same".

Nothing speaks for what you suggest to actually happen, so I view your statements as pure speculation, based on a fantasy, that I don't see as very meaningful I'm afraid. I understand your points but I think those are non-issues for Apple.
I'm sure there will be changes in the Apple future as always, some of them drastic, but I think there will be clear reasons behind these rather than thin hopeful concoctions.

I'm certain Apple won't turn into Microsoft. They have the wrong corporate design for that and no economic reasons. Obviously Apple is working on the next big thing, or things, if they have more of these and why not? I simply question that an OS merger kind of thing would be part of this.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with dreaming freely and stranger things than what you suggest as likely have happened I guess.

Last edited by Mikael B; 20th January 2018 at 04:30 PM.. Reason: Clarifying
Old 21st January 2018
  #1697
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
and no economic reasons
Source?
Old 21st January 2018
  #1698
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Crazy4Jazz's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Even so, if there is indeed some throttling under certain circumstances in this Apple product, it wouldn't be the first time something like that occurred. But it would defy belief to even make a Pro product that do this., I'm not paying $7k to encounter this, which is what I explained to Apple previously today. No-one in their right mind would.

Even though I'm not interested in buying one I guess I'll have to find one of these that I can run some lengthy tests on.
Thing is, I'm not racing my computer, I'm just recording music. As for the throttling, I listened to the Mac Insider video. I have no idea if the tests referred to are accurate or not but it was clear that whatever is going on would not affect what I'm doing.

It was also interesting that the Apple Insider drone thought that it was a shame Apple sacrificed performance for noise. Were his priorities music recording he might not think that. I wouldn't.

In the end, looks like a great machine for me. For Me. Not for you, find something that is. But like I said, I'm not in a testosterone fueled contest for the fastest computer. I just want something that works well, allows me to use virtual instruments from time to time without latency and can handle all the processing I need to do. There is no doubt in my mind the iMac Pro can do that and do it well. How do I know, because the 2011 iMac I'm currently using does all those things well too. Its just that when the amount of processing gets high certain tasks falter a bit, specifically virtual instruments. And that's the thing, I don't use virtual instruments all that much. I mostly record audio. But I use them and whose to say I won't use them more at some point.

I like what apple has done with the iMac Pro. Powerful, small and lots of RAM.
Old 21st January 2018
  #1699
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyjohn View Post
Source?
That'd depend on a number of factors. Here's a clue (profits).

Apple Q3 2017 Profit Hits $8.7 Billion (+Summary Data)

Microsoft’s Profit Up in Q3 2017

(I'm not sure that's the same quarter, but that that's not the interesting part as this is just an example of real world performance. Generally this trend continues. )

Last edited by Mikael B; 21st January 2018 at 10:48 AM..
Old 21st January 2018
  #1700
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
That'd depend on a number of factors. Here's a clue (profits).

Apple Q3 2017 Profit Hits $8.7 Billion (+Summary Data)

Microsoft’s Profit Up in Q3 2017

(I'm not sure that's the same quarter, but that that's not the interesting part as this is just an example of real world performance. Generally this trend continues. )
So this data makes you think MS has wrong corporate design and no economic reasons behind their strategy?
Old 21st January 2018
  #1701
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MusiKLover's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyjohn View Post
So this data makes you think MS has wrong corporate design and no economic reasons behind their strategy?
One thing Meltdown & Spectre has done, at least for me, is make me realize how much MSFT & AAPL are in this together. Not always separate, at times additive, they're overall similar yet different entities that are often complementary:


Apple's recent statements on the enterprise:

Apple'''s enterprise evolution

"Trying to find data on the size of Apple’s enterprise business is a challenge because it doesn’t often break out enterprise revenue in earnings calls, but to give you a sense of the market, Tim Cook did reveal a number in the Q4 2015 earnings call.

“We estimate that enterprise markets accounted for about $25 billion in annual Apple revenue in the last 12 months, up 40 percent over the prior year and they represent a major growth vector for the future,” Cook said at the time.

In a June 2017 Bloomberg interview, Cook didn’t provide any numbers, but he did call the enterprise, “the mother of all opportunities.” That’s because enterprises tend to buy in bulk, and as they build an Apple support system in-house, it feeds other parts of the enterprise market as companies buy Macs to build custom apps for both internal users and consumers of their products and services.

This connection did not escape Cook in the Bloomberg interview. “For most enterprises, iOS is the preferred mobile operating system. IOS is a fantastic platform because of the ease with which you can write apps that are great for helping you run your business efficiently or interface with your customers directly. We see many, many enterprises now writing apps. Well, what do they use to write the apps? They use the Mac. The Mac is the development platform for iOS,” Cook told Bloomberg."


Recent MSFT Press:

Microsoft Gets Bullish Report On Cloud Computing, Cash Return Prospects

"Microsoft's commercial cloud computing momentum is expected to continue, based on a customer survey by Credit Suisse, Nemeroff said in a report.

"Our new, proprietary survey (historically our surveys have been good leading indicators of business trends) suggests that momentum in Microsoft's Commercial Cloud businesses should continue throughout 2018, at least," he said.

..Credit Suisse analyst Michael Nemeroff reiterated his outperform rating on Microsoft stock and upped his price target to 115 from 95."


Two almost ancillary businesses for each (Mac & Azure,) yet both considered part of the crown jewels each company has to offer. Said differently, both are part of each corporations' core Value Prop, though Azure actually is likely to be even bigger on its own within MSFT.

Of course there's iCloud, but it's not the same as Azure by a long shot. It's more similar to OneDrive. MS has its own HW business segments, such as the Xbox, and they're not close to AAPL's overall size of just the iPhone Segment by a long shot. I didn't make that comparison because it's apples to apples, rather to attempt to demonstrate how they're similar yet different.

It would appear MS has conceded the phone space, but they are hugely bullish on the Cloud. Apple is attacking the Enterprise Segment differently, and in a way almost complementarily.

Perhaps the two companies have more synergies than we all realize. After all, MSFT is near its all time high with a cap of ~$700B; AAPL is too with a cap of ~$900B. Many Bloomberg type articles highlight the two, often along with the likes of Oracle, and it is safe to say that they're both behemoths who coexist happily these days both in the Enterprise space as well as the traditional Consumer arena. Oddly enough, the (primarily) Intel debacle has brought the two closer together in my mind.
Old 21st January 2018
  #1702
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Joe Porto's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MusiKLover View Post
One thing Meltdown & Spectre has done, at least for me, is make me realize how much MSFT & AAPL are in this together. ]
In 1997, when Microsoft was facing an Anti Trust suit, they bailed out Apple so that MS would not be forced to break up it's monopoly. They've been in this together for 2 decades.
Old 21st January 2018
  #1703
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MusiKLover's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Porto View Post
In 1997, when Microsoft was facing an Anti Trust suit, they bailed out Apple so that MS would not be forced to break up it's monopoly. They've been in this together for 2 decades.
You may have seen this, but the historical perspective these two discuss is telling, going back to the late 70s/early 80s:

Old 21st January 2018
  #1704
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyjohn View Post
So this data makes you think MS has wrong corporate design and no economic reasons behind their strategy?
Obviously not. I'm totally uninterested in Microsoft. If you want to discuss Red Herrings, may I suggest that you visit the systematic biology forum?

Last edited by Mikael B; 21st January 2018 at 09:31 PM..
Old 21st January 2018
  #1705
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusiKLover View Post
You may have seen this, but the historical perspective these two discuss is telling, going back to the late 70s/early 80s:
If you're not a freshman, all of this is old and well-known. I know it was 11 years ago and everything but nevertheless.
Old 21st January 2018
  #1706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Porto View Post
In 1997, when Microsoft was facing an Anti Trust suit, they bailed out Apple so that MS would not be forced to break up it's monopoly. They've been in this together for 2 decades.
You're making logical somersaults here. The first sentence is kinda true —MS made a $150 million investment in the nighties into Apple for a number of reasons — but the second sentence does not logically follow from the first.

It's just as true to say they've been at this together since the early eighties as MS software applications, like Excel, were pretty important for Apple back then.

The investment really only shows that it was beneficial for MS to have Apple around and that Apple could use the cash infusion and the other agreements at the time. MS own no Apple stock now as far as I know.

Last edited by Mikael B; 21st January 2018 at 09:32 PM.. Reason: language
Old 21st January 2018
  #1707
Tui
Gear Guru
 
Tui's Avatar
It's a duopoly, they need each other. Together, they've cornered the market with little to no way out.

Look at us, audio guys. What choices do we have, exactly? Linux? I didn't think so either.
Old 22nd January 2018
  #1708
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MusiKLover View Post
*snip

Perhaps the two companies have more synergies than we all realize. After all, MSFT is near its all time high with a cap of ~$700B; AAPL is too with a cap of ~$900B. Many Bloomberg type articles highlight the two, often along with the likes of Oracle, and it is safe to say that they're both behemoths who coexist happily these days both in the Enterprise space as well as the traditional Consumer arena. Oddly enough, the (primarily) Intel debacle has brought the two closer together in my mind.
Thanks for detailed post and interesting observation, I had similar impression as you that MS more committed to their strong market segment like server and gaming ecosystem while Tim Cook also kept doing to their own strong segment after Jobs died. I don't see any big flaws that make at least me think either of them have wrong corporate design or no economic reason behind their strategy.
Old 22nd January 2018
  #1709
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Obviously not. I'm totally uninterested in Microsoft. If you want to discuss Red Herrings, may I suggest that you visit the systematic biology forum?
You kept using MS's corporate design and business strategy for your counter argument so I followed your talking point and asked the source and reasoning behind it. You can always retract your argument, or I or other users will keep asking it. Sounds fair, right?
Old 22nd January 2018
  #1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy4Jazz View Post
Thing is, I'm not racing my computer, I'm just recording music. As for the throttling, I listened to the Mac Insider video. I have no idea if the tests referred to are accurate or not but it was clear that whatever is going on would not affect what I'm doing.

It was also interesting that the Apple Insider drone thought that it was a shame Apple sacrificed performance for noise. Were his priorities music recording he might not think that. I wouldn't.

In the end, looks like a great machine for me. For Me. Not for you, find something that is. But like I said, I'm not in a testosterone fueled contest for the fastest computer. I just want something that works well, allows me to use virtual instruments from time to time without latency and can handle all the processing I need to do. There is no doubt in my mind the iMac Pro can do that and do it well. How do I know, because the 2011 iMac I'm currently using does all those things well too. Its just that when the amount of processing gets high certain tasks falter a bit, specifically virtual instruments. And that's the thing, I don't use virtual instruments all that much. I mostly record audio. But I use them and whose to say I won't use them more at some point.

I like what apple has done with the iMac Pro. Powerful, small and lots of RAM.
I’ve had my iMac Pro for about 2 weeks. Really happy with it. I know I could go buy a bunch of parts and overclock and beat the performance of it for probably half the cost. But I stopped building PCs 10 years ago for a reason. It’s a pain in the ass when you have subtle compatibility issues. Or the chipset on you’re motherboard doesn’t like your audio interface. Or you got a spec of dust in some slot when you were assembling it and it is intermittent. Or it just burns up from overclocking. I don’t want to fool with that nonsense anymore. I just want a computer to do **** on and have a place to take it if it’s broken.
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