The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Tim Cook on Mac Desktop commitment Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 8th January 2018
  #1621
Lives for gear
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post


This reminds me of the presentation when Steve Jobs demonstrated running Tiger on a PC.
And this is relevant how? A Hackintosh video would be more relevant here.
Old 8th January 2018
  #1622
Lives for gear
 
Crazy4Jazz's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
Not sure where you're getting this from. Maybe you want to watch the Gruber talk with Schiller and Federighi to get some actual information? To, at the very least, understand what the actual professional market looks like today?


This is not 1995. A professional computer does not have to look like a big, bulky box anymore.
I agree. I can't know this but it does seem to me that Apple considers the iMac Pro a "pro" solution. It says so right in the name.
Old 8th January 2018
  #1623
Lives for gear
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy4Jazz View Post
I agree. I can't know this but it does seem to me that Apple considers the iMac Pro a "pro" solution. It says so right in the name.
Even so, if there is indeed some throttling under certain circumstances in this Apple product, it wouldn't be the first time something like that occurred. But it would defy belief to even make a Pro product that do this., I'm not paying $7k to encounter this, which is what I explained to Apple previously today. No-one in their right mind would.

Even though I'm not interested in buying one I guess I'll have to find one of these that I can run some lengthy tests on.
Old 8th January 2018
  #1624
Lives for gear
 

Thread Starter
Talking about Hacktintoshes, do you guys feel the iMac Pro competes with Hackintoshes? I kinda feel it doesn't. The Mac Pro, yes.

I guess many others could feel otherwise. Or tell themselves they do.
Old 9th January 2018
  #1625
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Talking about Hacktintoshes, do you guys feel the iMac Pro competes with Hackintoshes? I kinda feel it doesn't. The Mac Pro, yes.

I guess many others could feel otherwise. Or tell themselves they do.
I don't think so either.
Hackintoshes are built for 3 reasons:
-save money
-expansion/upgradeable
-flexibility regarding components
Added to that, they are often built by people who like to mess around with the hardware before the system is turned on the first time, i.e. they like the technical challenge.

The iMac Pro offers none of this.
Old 9th January 2018
  #1626
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
I'm not saying you're wrong. Just that Apple seem to not believe throttling would be the case with the heavy 8 hours of studio sessions I described to the. The iMac Pro in question was the 10-core with the base graphics.
I doubt the throttling will happen on an audio system, as power demand for real-time processing is not as demanding and heat intensive as other types of calculations, typically with higher bandwidth demand (some people tend to forget that 128 tracks @ 96kHz is only ~23MB/s, which is a joke for current systems).
I don't think it makes a difference which CPU is inside, they all have the same TDP value and scale speed vs cores.
Old 9th January 2018
  #1627
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Talking about Hacktintoshes, do you guys feel the iMac Pro competes with Hackintoshes? I kinda feel it doesn't. The Mac Pro, yes.

I guess many others could feel otherwise. Or tell themselves they do.
I recently sold my Hackintosh and bought a 2015 iMac. It was geekbenching at over 30k which was faster than the top Mac Pro at the time (and not far off the imac pro now).

It took me a while to realise that half the time it made no difference for music production as heavy mix plugs add so much latency you're stuffed for real time performance anyway even if you can add 100 of them. (Maybe that's an Ableton problem).

Personally if I add anything going forward its going to be some sort of DSP front end so I can punch into a fully produced track.
Old 9th January 2018
  #1628
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
I don't think so either.
Hackintoshes are built for 3 reasons:
-save money
-expansion/upgradeable
-flexibility regarding components
Added to that, they are often built by people who like to mess around with the hardware before the system is turned on the first time, i.e. they like the technical challenge.

The iMac Pro offers none of this.
Hmm, I think overclocking is a really good reason too.
Old 10th January 2018
  #1629
Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
Hmm, I think overclocking is a really good reason too.
That was included in the "mess with the hardware" part...
Old 11th January 2018
  #1630
Lives for gear
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by mat1 View Post
I recently sold my Hackintosh and bought a 2015 iMac. It was geekbenching at over 30k which was faster than the top Mac Pro at the time (and not far off the imac pro now).

It took me a while to realise that half the time it made no difference for music production as heavy mix plugs add so much latency you're stuffed for real time performance anyway even if you can add 100 of them. (Maybe that's an Ableton problem).

Personally if I add anything going forward its going to be some sort of DSP front end so I can punch into a fully produced track.
interesting. How do you feel this iMac works out with heat dissipation and is any throttling ever appearing?

I use multiple third party instrument plug-ins in Ableton Live 9 running in oversampled mode, if available, and when tracking performances I use a buffer of 256 samples at the most, though drum performances can need as low as 64 for improved playability. Both MIDI and audio is recorded, from 1-3 sources in the same take. I try to avoid all plug-ins with latency when tracking.

My main reason for my interest in a Mac Pro or Hackintosh is the ability to use more cores, like 8-10.
Old 11th January 2018
  #1631
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
interesting. How do you feel this iMac works out with heat dissipation and is any throttling ever appearing?

I use multiple third party instrument plug-ins in Ableton Live 9 running in oversampled mode, if available, and when tracking performances I use a buffer of 256 samples at the most, though drum performances can need as low as 64 for improved playability. Both MIDI and audio is recorded, from 1-3 sources in the same take. I try to avoid all plug-ins with latency when tracking.

My main reason for my interest in a Mac Pro or Hackintosh is the ability to use more cores, like 8-10.
At 64 buffer I can run 140 tracks - 30+ Vi's - Kontakt, Exhale, Serumx8, Arturia Synths etc. 6xNeutron. 5 Autotune tracks. Filter, EQ, Glue compressor on every channel.

This is about twice what I'd usually use but it plays back nicely at around 70% cpu. At 128 I can add Ozone and we're at 60%. Easily enough for my own needs! At 256 its a joke!

This particular model doesn't throttle beneath 4.0 according to the benchmark guys on youtube so I'm not too worried about that. The fans are on at high cpu usage but nothing offensive so far.


If you can get in and out of a Hackintosh for mega cheap its worth a look but bare in mind PCs depreciate like HELL. The iMac would have been a better choice for me financially from the off even though the outlay was much higher. Bag a used one with Applecare and it's relatively cheap.. I recon it costs me about £35/mth in depreciation to own a Mac.


I guess it's hard to know exactly what you need until you have a machine in front of you.
Old 12th January 2018
  #1632
Gear Nut
 

So now Apple is the 4th largest of the personal computer manufacturers. They're definitely doing something wrong
Old 12th January 2018
  #1633
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
So now Apple is the 4th largest of the personal computer manufacturers. They're definitely doing something wrong
Acer, Asus, and Apple have been basically "tied" for the 4-6 slots for a few years at <8% of the market share. Everyone above them is at least 2-3x's the output. There is nothing really staggering about those numbers.
Old 12th January 2018
  #1634
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitardom View Post
Acer, Asus, and Apple have been basically "tied" for the 4-6 slots for a few years at <8% of the market share. Everyone above them is at least 2-3x's the output. There is nothing really staggering about those numbers.
Pretty much true. Depending on which numbers you look at Apple passed Acer or Asus but still sold more than either. And this is in a stretch of 6 years of downturn in the PC industry. Given the numbers of PCs that the top 3 sell to business Apple will never be able to break into that. 4th is about the best they're going to be able to do. 5-6% increase year-over-year in that industry isnt anything to sneeze at.
Old 13th January 2018
  #1635
Lives for gear
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
So now Apple is the 4th largest of the personal computer manufacturers. They're definitely doing something wrong

Within the realm of this discussion only desktop sales are relevant, wouldn't you agree? It's "Mac Desktop commitment" not "Mac commitment".
Total sales is only interesting if Apple computer output is put in question. The totality of which can co-exist with situations with a lack of up-to-date mid-priced desktops (The Minis) as well as lack of up-to-date top end desktops (Mac Pros). We know the latter will arrive at some date in 2018 or so, but that's all we know.

The iMacs, the non-Pros as well as the Pros, are of course desktops, but very specific ones. At the moment they are the only up-to-date desktops that are suitable for music production in some capacity.
Old 13th January 2018
  #1636
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Within the realm of this discussion only desktop sales are relevant, wouldn't you agree? It's "Mac Desktop commitment" not "Mac commitment".
Total sales is only interesting if Apple computer output is put in question. The totality of which can co-exist with situations with a lack of up-to-date mid-priced desktops (The Minis) as well as lack of up-to-date top end desktops (Mac Pros). We know the latter will arrive at some date in 2018 or so, but that's all we know.

The iMacs, the non-Pros as well as the Pros, are of course desktops, but very specific ones. At the moment they are the only up-to-date desktops that are suitable for music production in some capacity.
This came up in an earlier post. Was just being silly for the most part. But it's still interesting to me that in the market they're in Apple sales are increasing.
Old 13th January 2018
  #1637
Sky
Lives for gear
 
Sky's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
So now Apple is the 4th largest of the personal computer manufacturers. They're definitely doing something wrong
That's why this conversation is so interesting. The bulk of Apple's computer product line is absolutely doing something right (in my opinion). What we are talking about is a narrow segment within the Mac desktop market. The fact that Tim Cook has acknowledged a pending modular Mac to serve this segment is promising. Hoping for the best and getting on with my 5,1.

Sky
Old 13th January 2018
  #1638
Lives for gear
 
lowkey's Avatar
 

Lenovo's gross profit margin is 13%, Apples is 39%.
So the pure number of sales is not the only relevant number. Apple simply doesn't compete in the "high volume, low profit" market...for better or worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitardom View Post
Acer, Asus, and Apple have been basically "tied" for the 4-6 slots for a few years at <8% of the market share. Everyone above them is at least 2-3x's the output. There is nothing really staggering about those numbers.
Old 13th January 2018
  #1639
I just got an iMac pro. The combination of form factor power and ease of setup clinched it for me. I was previously using a 2014 MacBook Pro i7 quad core. The iMac pro is appreciably more powerful and QUIETER. as soon as my MacBook had to work the fan came on.

Even when running Geekbench on the iMac pro it was completely silent with all 8 cores pegged
Old 13th January 2018
  #1640
Lives for gear
 
lowkey's Avatar
 

^if you're using Logic post in the Logic Benchmark thread. Will be interesting to see how it goes!
Old 13th January 2018
  #1641
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
^if you're using Logic post in the Logic Benchmark thread. Will be interesting to see how it goes!
Logic Pro X has a 255 midi and audio track limit. My 2009 5,1 Mac Pro scored 240 tracks on the benchmark. We need a new Logic bench test.
Old 13th January 2018
  #1642
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
^if you're using Logic post in the Logic Benchmark thread. Will be interesting to see how it goes!
I am- will do that this weekend.
Old 13th January 2018
  #1643
Lives for gear
 
MusiKLover's Avatar
An interesting study that is Mac based, though general in scope, was released last week; I don't believe he's yet tested the latest Spectre Update:

Measuring OS X Meltdown Patches Performance

"My tests demonstrate that the syscall interface is definitely much slower in High Sierra 10.13.2. This could lead to some drama, that in most cases, is not justified (I witnessed some minor drama because I released an early chart to see what happened). What my tests appear to point to is that some workloads will be slower but they are probably not relevant unless you are doing millions of iterations. Maybe a 10% impact on your build times is not reasonable at all or you don’t even notice it. The most important thing that users and systems administrators need to do is to measure their specific situation. It’s the only way to be sure if this patch is a problem or not, and build their threat case under this new assumption.

One thing is sure, this appears to be here to stay in the medium to long term until all hardware is replaced."

Kaby Lake does offer significant performance improvements over my Haswell, but I still cannot justify such a purchase yet. Furthermore, the next iMacs (not Pro) could introduce Coffee Lake or its predecessor -- and this will assumedly require a new internal infrastructure since it is going to be either 6 cores/12 Threads (Coffee Lake) or 8 Cores/16 threads. I too am curious about the heat generation issues. Perhaps there will still be a spot for Kaby Lake regardless. I doubt even Coffee Lake's replacement will include the theoretically coming new Intel technology.

Apple could even take a pass on refreshing both, at least at the CPU level, and wait for newly engineered processors. Coffee Lake or its replacement might not be warranted with the iMac Pro lineup. That's actually not a bad thing as I feel we all need to wait this out a bit longer. Last year the new iMacs came out in June I believe, though I wouldn't be surprised if they push this back to later this year, perhaps the fall. Maybe there will be no major news on the iMac or MacBook Pro, but a possibly reintroduced Mini along with the new Mac Pro.

Then again, would anyone in their right mind purchase a new Pro Machine with Xeon W chips that have Meltdown & Spectre issues if new chips without the discrepancies are theoretically forthcoming? I wonder how much the Xeons will fall in price as a result, however, and this could make such a purchase more enticing (that is if Apple passes along the cost savings to customers.) This last point is pure conjecture.
Old 14th January 2018
  #1644
Lives for gear
 
lowkey's Avatar
 

But still...getting to 255 tracks with the activity monitor showing for example 50% use, should give a reasonable idea no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastlanephil View Post
Logic Pro X has a 255 midi and audio track limit. My 2009 5,1 Mac Pro scored 240 tracks on the benchmark. We need a new Logic bench test.
Old 15th January 2018
  #1645
Gear Nut
 

Tim Cook can commit to use ryzen for new mac. intel chip is garbage now.
Old 15th January 2018
  #1646
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyjohn View Post
Tim Cook can commit to use ryzen for new mac. intel chip is garbage now.
Yeah sure. If Apple is going to switch from Intel it will be to their own chips, not AMD.
Old 15th January 2018
  #1647
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
Yeah sure. If Apple is going to switch from Intel it will be to their own chips, not AMD.
Source?
Old 15th January 2018
  #1648
Gear Maniac
 

I’ve read the same idea here and then... The only problem for Apple is to secure mass production. They already have their in-house chips for iOS. I don’t know how those chips could handle a full system : are they really less powerful ? And where will Apple produce them ? Asia ? USA ? Anyway, Apple apparently decided the chips are too critical to be outsourced.
Old 15th January 2018
  #1649
Lives for gear
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyjohn View Post
Tim Cook can commit to use ryzen for new mac. intel chip is garbage now.
Intel, successfully making crap since 1968. Can AMD even make the number of processors Apple need?
Old 15th January 2018
  #1650
Lives for gear
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
Yeah sure. If Apple is going to switch from Intel it will be to their own chips, not AMD.
You mean their secret chips that actually compare to Intel's and AMD's? Because AFAIK what they make are processors for iThings. These have strikingly different requirements.
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump