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Tim Cook on Mac Desktop commitment Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 7th January 2018
  #1591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Porto View Post
Yes, that was my point in an earlier post. We have choices now. Apple does not have a monopoly on the pro A/V market. Unless you are using Logic or Final Cut, you don't need a Mac.

Apple has evolved. They may have stated in a footnote that they are still committed to the pro market, but refreshing their high end models every 4+ years is hardly enough IMO.

At this point, you either accept Apple has moved on, and move to a PC, or you adapt existing Apple products to your needs.

But if you want to fault Apple because it's extremely successful business model is not catering to your personal needs, then you need to set the nostalgia and brand loyalty aside and just buy a PC that suits your needs.

Nintendo started as a playing card company. Xerox as a camera company. Nokia manufactured paper. Berkshire and Wrigley's were both originally textile companies.

Companies evolve. Apple is evolving. They may do so a little too fast for some customers, but their success speaks for itself.
Maybe it is. But will it last? In my opinion they should move from NASDAQ to NYSE and be listed as a toy manufacture.
Old 7th January 2018
  #1592
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stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky View Post
Apple is currently not in the game for a professional desktop PC, by their own admission.
Not sure where you're getting this from. Maybe you want to watch the Gruber talk with Schiller and Federighi to get some actual information? To, at the very least, understand what the actual professional market looks like today?


This is not 1995. A professional computer does not have to look like a big, bulky box anymore.
Old 7th January 2018
  #1593
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Joe Porto's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
Maybe it is. But will it last? In my opinion they should move from NASDAQ to NYSE and be listed as a toy manufacture.
Apple's primary revenue is from iPhone (55%). And in 2017, their "services" division (streaming/downloads) became their second largest revenue, beating iPad and Mac sales.

I would say Apple is becoming a media/entertainment service company that sells hardware to support their services. How many people will be buying desktop computers in 5 years? Now how many people will be streaming/downloading media entertainment?

It may be a gamble. Apple has stiff competition in Amazon, Netflix, etc. But Apple's only division that outperformed expectations for 2017 was their service division, which was actually up 20% over projections.
Old 7th January 2018
  #1594
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3rdpath's Avatar
Ya know, if Apple just put out a new cheese grater with all the newest tech and I/O, but kept everything else the same...I'd buy it, gently slide my 5,1 12 core out, put the new Mac in and be done with it. My clients listen to my work, they're not looking for an aesthetic statement from my computer.

This should be approached like upgrading a refrigerator. Seriously.
Old 7th January 2018
  #1595
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Porto View Post
How many people will be buying desktop computers in 5 years? Now how many people will be streaming/downloading media entertainment?
I dont expect the sales of desktop computer drop that mush. However the development is slowing down so you run your hardware until it dies. Apple and microsoft is synthetically trying people to upgrade with dropping support for older hardware for no technical reason. Lifetime of a computer today is maybe 10 year instead of three years that is was 20 years a go. Streaming is of course a very important part of the future. So important that it will be part of legislations and regulations. EU is definitely not going in the same way as the wild west regarding net neutrality rules, and it seems that big parts of Asia does not either. Quite the opposite I would say, people is not accepting to by boxes from many different vendors and want it to be standardised. And Im quite sure that the french will not accept that it will be based on a American company's proprietary solutions for EU. And that Apple is doing everything they can do avoid taxes in europe make them a valid target for the left wing political movement. (Left wing in europe is something else than in US if you don't know)
Old 7th January 2018
  #1596
Deleted User
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdpath View Post
Ya know, if Apple just put out a new cheese grater with all the newest tech and I/O, but kept everything else the same...I'd buy it, gently slide my 5,1 12 core out, put the new Mac in and be done with it. My clients listen to my work, they're not looking for an aesthetic statement from my computer.

This should be approached like upgrading a refrigerator. Seriously.
If you're on a MacBook, iMac, or any windows machine, that's exactly what it's like - upgrading a refrigerator. Strange who Apple's been willing to disrupt - Mac Pro and Mac Mini users.
Old 7th January 2018
  #1597
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Porto View Post
Apple's primary revenue is from iPhone (55%). And in 2017, their "services" division (streaming/downloads) became their second largest revenue, beating iPad and Mac sales.

This is largely irrelevant here. With commonly maybe 5,000,000,000 in profits (not revenue) from computers the tired comparison to iPhones and iPads is not really interesting. While Pro Machines may or may not pay for their investments, that's something for Apple to handle and decide upon based on their complete business plan. It's not at all given you drop successful products because others do better. Without Pro machines there is no highly Mac correlated content to offer on the other platforms and in the other channels, so to pretend that the Pro platform isn't important for Apple is a little thin I think.
Old 7th January 2018
  #1598
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Joe Porto's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Without Pro machines there is no highly Mac correlated content to offer on the other platforms and in the other channels, so to pretend that the Pro platform isn't important for Apple is a little thin I think.
You don't need a "pro" desktop Mac to make iPhone apps. And movies/music are platform independent.

The last "pro" desktop was release over 4 years ago. Apple "services" have grown exponentially in that time. I see no correlation between "pro" mac desktops and apple service content.
Old 7th January 2018
  #1599
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Jones Sr View Post

If I sound like I'm ranting without experience of our wonderful new external/thunderbolt future, well I have a top model Macbook Pro 2017 here and for my general portable work I have to carry 7 types of dongle in my bag. It is an utterly hateful experience, and the most appallingly stupid thing Apple ever did to their computer line. Every other Mac I've had was a thing of joy, but this 'damn, did I remember to bring dongle #5 ' experience has pushed me right to the edge of browsing self build PCs and chunky Ethernet/USB-A port Dell laptops. The pro's didn't leave Apple, Apple told them loud and clear to go and get f*cked.
I don't know what you do but I also have a 2017 MacBook Pro and I carry one dongle for it. It has power pass thru and 3 USB ports, 2 are USB 2 and one is USB 3. Every other thing I have plugs into one of those ports. I could see maybe having to carry one or two other adapters to connect to external video but i'd have to have adapters for that stuff anyhow.
Old 8th January 2018
  #1600
Sky
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Sky's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
Not sure where you're getting this from. Maybe you want to watch the Gruber talk with Schiller and Federighi to get some actual information? To, at the very least, understand what the actual professional market looks like today?


This is not 1995. A professional computer does not have to look like a big, bulky box anymore.
I was just being figurative in my comment. Tim Cook basically owned up to the flower pot situation last year and acknowledged a fix is needed. From the standpoint of having a competitive "professional" product, they currently don't. The situation is critical enough that users are willing to abandon Mac apps and jump to Windows - that says a lot.

I agree with you that computers with professional performance do not have to be big and bulky. But the minute you yank PCIe you compromise the established Pro Tools segment, and a few other applications for high-bandwidth PCIe that I mentioned a few posts back. Also, the minute you must open your computer with a carpet blade to upgrade RAM or storage that's a big compromise. Not to mention the forced ergonomics of the iMac format, that may not adapt well into an existing workstation.

I'll let go of our back and forth at this point. Suffice to say we probably agree on more than we disagree on. I would take a user-serviceable Mini today if it could match the performance of a loaded 5,1 12-core.

Sky
Old 8th January 2018
  #1601
Sky
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Sky's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
The lack of a PCIe bus totally sucks for actual commercial recording studios, who almost all run PT HD or HDX systems that rely on PCIe cards. The lack of an expandable case sucks for people trying to build a neat and sturdy work rig. My own OSX machine is rackmounted with hot swap drive trays along the front, and far more functional than the absurd urn shaped thing that Apple puked up when they finally jumped the shark. It also cost about $1500, not $3k or $5k or whatever other crazy numbers people are throwing around. I have literally never heard a piece of music ever that needed a $5000 all in one computer, or would benefit from one. With Apple you pay huge money for stuff you don't need (eg dual expensive video cards) in a form factor completely unsuitable for a commercial audio production space.

Now people are talking seriously about an Imac as a suitable alternative... an all in one piece of hardware with a monitor welded on. To me that is absurd. The conflict here comes down to different ideas of what pro means exactly. These machines are probably ok for some pros... (still think they are not a good value for anyone...) but they are not good for commercial recording studio facilities.
Yup, a shiny new 5120 X 2880 iMac display is not ideal in the audio studio. I would run it as 2560 X 1440 and add a second display as close to the same form factor as possible. Or I would buy a pair of 3440 X 1440s that I really want and connect them to a proper Mac OS desktop.

Also, while I've been debating the feasibility of Apple outsourcing professional hardware development to a qualified third party, in essence they already have. After Apple released the flowerpot, Sonnet and others created expansion systems to re-integrate what Apple removed from the basic computer design. What's the difference between buying a loaded 3rd party Mac, versus a loaded 3rd party chassis with a stripped Mac embedded in it?

xMac Pro Server Thunderbolt 2 PCIe Enclosure | Sonnet

Sky
Old 8th January 2018
  #1602
Tui
Gear Guru
 
Tui's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Porto View Post
You don't need a "pro" desktop Mac to make iPhone apps.
This is exactly my concern. Nobody working at Apple HQ needs a Mac Pro. iMacs are more than capable of running everything to do with Apple Inc., including writing software. I bet you won't find many, if any, Mac Pros in use at Apple - they simply don't need them. Consequently, they don't understand the concerns and ongoing upset of people who DO need that kind of power...

The folks at Apple are not content creators. They live in a different reality from us guys.
Old 8th January 2018
  #1603
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
This is not 1995. A professional computer does not have to look like a big, bulky box anymore.
It depends on what you are doing. The current Mac Pro and iMac Pro serve those who don't need maximum performance or fully stacked components (drives, GPU, DSP) well.
However, the moment you need to add extra drives, RAID arrays, more GPU power, or a set of DSP cards like HDX, the slick form factor becomes an obstacle as you need to add more cabling and boxes.
Of course I am biased, as our company sells big black boxes. But for us, design is also a topic. The issue is the expandability: when adding such components as above, especially when the need to stay silent is there, nothing beats a straightforward design with lots of airflow and plenty room for expansion.
That does not mean that internal expansion is always preferred above external, but I don't see the point in a compact slick design when 5 external devices need to be hooked up, each with their own power supply and extra cables at that.

When you simply want to record and mix bands with an Apogee Ensemble and a single HDD box for backups is enough, then I agree a slim design without internal expansion is good enough.
Old 8th January 2018
  #1604
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Porto View Post
You don't need a "pro" desktop Mac to make iPhone apps. And movies/music are platform independent.

The last "pro" desktop was release over 4 years ago. Apple "services" have grown exponentially in that time. I see no correlation between "pro" mac desktops and apple service content.
What you fail to "see" is beside the point. I mean ALL CONTENT. Content creators are important for the Apple business at large, whether they updated the Mac Pro yet or not. That's where this discussion started one year ago, with an internal Apple statement.

That you can make content on PCs is totally uninteresting for the Apple business plan, despite last 5 years desktop releases, or lack thereof.
Old 8th January 2018
  #1605
Gear Maniac
 

I don't know if this article has already been discussed here : Following MacBook Pro backlash, Tim Cook promises Apple won’t forget about its Pro users – BGR
“You will see us do more in the pro area,” Cook said in a response to a question about the Mac Pro. “The pro area is very important to us. The creative area is very important to us in particular.”
Old 8th January 2018
  #1606
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post

The folks at Apple are not content creators. They live in a different reality from us guys.
Let's hope that when they get into original content they learn from the process and the people working with this stuff. Here's for hope…
Old 8th January 2018
  #1607
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sardi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
This is not 1995. A professional computer does not have to look like a big, bulky box anymore.
True, but do you not find it interesting that the new iMac Pro's are pushing close to 100 degrees CPU temperature and the OS is throttling the CPU speed to keep the temperature down?

Clearly, larger form factor towers are still necessary. All that heat needs to escape somehow.
Old 8th January 2018
  #1608
Quote:
Originally Posted by sardi View Post
True, but do you not find it interesting that the new iMac Pro's are pushing close to 100 degrees CPU temperature and the OS is throttling the CPU speed to keep the temperature down?

Clearly, larger form factor towers are still necessary. All that heat needs to escape somehow.
Can you provide a link to a source for this?
Old 8th January 2018
  #1609
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sardi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by climber View Post
Can you provide a link to a source for this?
There's lots of info floating around if you do a search.

If you want some real word examples for audio, scroll to the end of this thread on the DUC.

iMac Pro Customization Options - Thoughts? - Avid Pro Audio Community
Old 8th January 2018
  #1610
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by sardi View Post
True, but do you not find it interesting that the new iMac Pro's are pushing close to 100 degrees CPU temperature and the OS is throttling the CPU speed to keep the temperature down?

Clearly, larger form factor towers are still necessary. All that heat needs to escape somehow.
Apple think not.

I called Apple and they claim there won't be any throttling with the iMac Pro and if there would be, one can return it for a full refund within an agreed time (like 30 days). So at least you could test for yourself to make sure. Obviously you have to get this down in the info with the purchase to feel confident.

Unfortunately the iMac Pro doesn't fit me very well. I have friends that might like it though.
Old 8th January 2018
  #1611
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sardi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Apple think not.

I called Apple and they claim there won't be any throttling with the iMac Pro and if there would be, one can return it for a full refund within an agreed time (like 30 days). So at least you could test for yourself to make sure. Obviously you have to get this down in the info with the purchase to feel confident.

Unfortunately the iMac Pro doesn't fit me very well. I have friends that might like it though.
Apple have always had a 14 day return policy, so it's pretty easy to test the machine in situ if one wants.

Did you bother to look at the thread I linked above? There's also a lot of info online saying the same thing.
Old 8th January 2018
  #1612
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by sardi View Post

Did you bother to look at the thread I linked above? There's also a lot of info online saying the same thing.
I read all of that before. Why do you take what people post as the gospel from the almighty? I only narrated what Apple told me. Whether a real life 10-core iMac Pro won't throttle in practice, like an 8-hour heavy session, is another question, but at least one male person in the technical sales dep. is willing to stick his neck out on this particular point.

One can ask for a longer time than 14 days.
Old 8th January 2018
  #1613
Quote:
Originally Posted by climber View Post
Can you provide a link to a source for this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Apple think not.

I called Apple and they claim there won't be any throttling with the iMac Pro and if there would be, one can return it for a full refund within an agreed time (like 30 days). So at least you could test for yourself to make sure. Obviously you have to get this down in the info with the purchase to feel confident.

Unfortunately the iMac Pro doesn't fit me very well. I have friends that might like it though.
Here is a video showing the throttling:
Video: Putting the iMac Pro thermals to the test
It was posted here:
iMac Pro - Fan noise?

I do not wonder, as I explained in another thread (or this one?) the TDP of both CPU and GPU is over 400% compared to the fastest regular iMac, not counting the 2 PCIe SSDs in it which get way hotter than a SATA SSD. In that case, the 67% better airflow as marketed is not really a feature you can put in a positive daylight.
For regular tasks it will not be a problem, but for high throughput (that is what those CPU and GPU are for) it is obvious to me that this thin box needs to cut a corner somewhere.
Old 8th January 2018
  #1614
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sardi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
I read all of that before. Why do you take what people post as the gospel from the almighty? I only narrated what Apple told me. Whether a real life 10-core iMac Pro won't throttle in practice, like an 8-hour heavy session, is another question, but at least one male person in the technical sales dep. is willing to stick his neck out on this particular point.

One can ask for a longer time than 14 days.
But you’re happy to take a what an employee says as gospel?

You’ve read the numerous posts reporting the throttling of the CPU but still don’t believe it?

14 days is plenty of time to put the machine through it’s paces, but if you can get more, fantastic.
Old 8th January 2018
  #1615
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stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sardi View Post
the OS is throttling the CPU speed to keep the temperature down?
No, they designed a massive cooling system to keep temperature down.

Building a performance oriented machine and then throttling performance would be quite idiotic.




Quote:
Originally Posted by sardi View Post
There's lots of info floating around if you do a search.

If you want some real word examples for audio, scroll to the end of this thread on the DUC.

iMac Pro Customization Options - Thoughts? - Avid Pro Audio Community
Guesswork from forum users is not really a reliable source...
Old 8th January 2018
  #1616
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
This is exactly my concern. Nobody working at Apple HQ needs a Mac Pro. iMacs are more than capable of running everything to do with Apple Inc., including writing software. I bet you won't find many, if any, Mac Pros in use at Apple - they simply don't need them. Consequently, they don't understand the concerns and ongoing upset of people who DO need that kind of power...

The folks at Apple are not content creators. They live in a different reality from us guys.
Technically, Apple doesn’t even need iMacs at their headquarters, just macOSX. It does run quite well on a PC.
Old 8th January 2018
  #1617
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
I do not wonder, as I explained in another thread (or this one?) the TDP of both CPU and GPU is over 400% compared to the fastest regular iMac, not counting the 2 PCIe SSDs in it which get way hotter than a SATA SSD. In that case, the 67% better airflow as marketed is not really a feature you can put in a positive daylight.
For regular tasks it will not be a problem, but for high throughput (that is what those CPU and GPU are for) it is obvious to me that this thin box needs to cut a corner somewhere.
I'm not saying you're wrong. Just that Apple seem to not believe throttling would be the case with the heavy 8 hours of studio sessions I described to the. The iMac Pro in question was the 10-core with the base graphics.
Old 8th January 2018
  #1618
Tui
Gear Guru
 
Tui's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastlanephil View Post
Technically, Apple doesn’t even need iMacs at their headquarters, just macOSX. It does run quite well on a PC.


This reminds me of the presentation when Steve Jobs demonstrated running Tiger on a PC.

Old 8th January 2018
  #1619
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by sardi View Post
But you’re happy to take a what an employee says as gospel?

You’ve read the numerous posts reporting the throttling of the CPU but still don’t believe it?

14 days is plenty of time to put the machine through it’s paces, but if you can get more, fantastic.
What makes you think that? I never said that. I relayed Apple's statements. That's all.

I don't believe posts necessarily. Quite often people exaggerate. I believe tests that I make and execute. Of course also well done tests from sources I've learned to trust with time. I haven't evaluated Apple Insider before. I like Anandtech, but in the end I want to try stuff myself. If I was interested in the IP I'd do my own tests. But I'm not. Maybe when I can try one out. I was in a shop yesterday and they had only the iMac.
Old 8th January 2018
  #1620
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastlanephil View Post
Technically, Apple doesn’t even need iMacs at their headquarters, just macOSX. It does run quite well on a PC.
Tell us more about your time at Apple and their technical strategy you're clearly involved in.
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