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Tim Cook on Mac Desktop commitment Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 2nd January 2018
  #1531
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusiKLover View Post
You added i9s; I referenced i7s and Xeon Ws.
The i9's are comparable with the Xeon W series.
i7's have less cores so obviously their clock can be higher.
Anything above 3GHz with 4 or more cores does a solid job nowadays, I really don't worry about a few MHz more or less in that realm, rather at how many cores it has. Anything not record armed will run on those other cores and takes the load off the current armed channels.
Old 2nd January 2018
  #1532
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MusiKLover's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
The i9's are comparable with the Xeon W series.
i7's have less cores so obviously their clock can be higher.
Anything above 3GHz with 4 or more cores does a solid job nowadays, I really don't worry about a few MHz more or less in that realm, rather at how many cores it has. Anything not record armed will run on those other cores and takes the load off the current armed channels.
That was my point -- the Single Core Issue:

"Pick one of the above, it is not happening. Modern i7 machines in general should have better Single Core performance than any of the Xeon W chips. Many i5s do as well.

Turbo boost is a benchmark they choose to market, if it actually is a reality at all times. Even if it is, modern i7s generally perform better than (or potentially equal to) Xeon Ws as respects the Single Core. i5s are right up there."
Old 2nd January 2018
  #1533
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusiKLover View Post
That was my point -- the Single Core Issue:

"Pick one of the above, it is not happening. Modern i7 machines in general should have better Single Core performance than any of the Xeon W chips. Many i5s do as well.

Turbo boost is a benchmark they choose to market, if it actually is a reality at all times. Even if it is, modern i7s generally perform better than (or potentially equal to) Xeon Ws as respects the Single Core. i5s are right up there."
Well, that sounds like you prefer an i5 or i7, do I understand you wrong?
Old 2nd January 2018
  #1534
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MusiKLover's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
Well, that sounds like you prefer an i5 or i7, do I understand you wrong?
For my use case, I do along with UAD's DSP. I can see how many composers who need hundreds of tracks might prefer more cores.

Two questions could be -- with the newer Xeon W / i9 machines, does having better multicore support with faster clock speeds eradicate the need for the likes of VEP for larger Projects? Is Turbo Boost a reality (an thus enough) in your particular use case when record-armed? From what I've read on VI-Control, many use large multitimbral instantiations in VEP, so I wonder how it plays out.
Old 2nd January 2018
  #1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusiKLover View Post
Two questions could be -- with the newer Xeon W / i9 machines, does having better multicore support with faster clock speeds eradicate the need for the likes of VEP for larger Projects?
It is not about better multicore support: it has been great since years.
VEP is still a good tool even on a single system, as it
a) has a lot better performance than any other host (except maybe Reaper, haven't compared them), and better performance is always good to have
b) allows switching projects without the need to reload all libraries.
But instead of having slave farms, yes more fast cores allow you to run everything on a single or a few systems. We have a customer who replaced 12 Macs + small slaves with 2 dual Xeon systems years ago. By now, he could almost be using a single system with similar performance.

Quote:
Is Turbo Boost a reality (an thus enough) in your particular use case when record-armed?
Only as far as the all core Turbo allows. In a DAW, you NEVER get the full Turbo Boost speed, as a DAW typically enables all cores, even when hardly used. In that case, even if only a single core really is doing something, it will not reach its full Turbo. The all core Turbo is somewhere between base clock and max Turbo speed but it is badly documented by Intel, especially the latest generations.
For example, our current X2 advanced, 6 x 3.6GHz base clock, max Turbo 4GHz runs at an all core Turbo of 3.8GHz in all DAWs.

Quote:
From what I've read on VI-Control, many use large multitimbral instantiations in VEP, so I wonder how it plays out.
See above, for larger mockups VEP is a great tool, even when using it on a single system.
Old 2nd January 2018
  #1536
Tui
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
VEP is still a good tool even on a single system, as it
a) has a lot better performance than any other host (except maybe Reaper, haven't compared them), and better performance is always good to have
Do you have any experience with VEP and Kontakt - does Kontakt run better or worse on its own? Could VEP improve multicore support with Kontakt?

I guess I will try out VEP at some stage, but I first have to buy one of those dongles... Ugh.
Old 2nd January 2018
  #1537
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
Do you have any experience with VEP and Kontakt - does Kontakt run better or worse on its own? Could VEP improve multicore support with Kontakt?

I guess I will try out VEP at some stage, but I first have to buy one of those dongles... Ugh.
I have VE Pro 5 but don’t I don’t use it very often after switching from an iMac/Mac Mini set up to a maxed out cMac Pro.

You not only have to buy a dongle, you have to buy one of their products to get the demo. I bought a bass clarinet. I also got some free instruments with the included basic player. Nothing great though.

Yeah, a few years back VE Pro was being reported to help spread out the work load when using the muti-timbral Kontakt. I’m not sure if that’s the case anymore.
Old 2nd January 2018
  #1538
Sky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Jones Sr View Post
The reason it's taking ages is in part complacency and also that they are overdesigning something abstract and inappropriate. Pro users again and again have requested some kind of Mac Mini-plus, or a half sized cheesegrater updated with thunderbolt and ssd slots and 3rd party GPU support, it really ISN'T Rocket SURGERY. When a handful of amateurs on hackintosh forums can knock up golden builds that use newer components than anything in official Apple computers, I'm sure Apple's own engineers could make something suitable given that they're not working around all the obfuscation that blocks hackintoshes from working.
This part of your post echoes my thoughts. A pro machine does not need the full Apple design treatment. Not that design doesn't matter. The cheese grater is ridiculously elegant in component access and serviceability, which is what I care most about. The fact that tossing together a hackintosh is currently closer to this ideal than buying either a flower pot or iMac Pro gives pause.

Sky
Old 2nd January 2018
  #1539
Tui
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastlanephil View Post
I have VE Pro 5 but don’t I don’t use it very often after switching from an iMac/Mac Mini set up to a maxed out cMac Pro.

You not only have to buy a dongle, you have to buy one of their products to get the demo. I bought a bass clarinet. I also got some free instruments with the included basic player. Nothing great though.

Yeah, a few years back VE Pro was being reported to help spread out the work load when using the muti-timbral Kontakt. I’m not sure if that’s the case anymore.
Thank you for your post.

I just created an account with VSL and requested a VEP demo. It said:

"You need at least one registered VSL product to request a demo license.
If you do not have any registered products, please register your ViennaKey (or Steinberg eLicenser USB protection device) and contact us directly at [email protected], we will provide you with a free demo license right away."

It looks as if I might "only" have to buy a dongle...

The question remains, would multi-core support with one live instrument be improved?
Old 2nd January 2018
  #1540
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Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
The question remains, would multi-core support with one live instrument be improved?
The host can certainly have some impact, but I would expect that the plug-in itself would be the most important factor. Just to be sure: you have configured Kontakt to enable multiprocessor support, yes?
Old 2nd January 2018
  #1541
Tui
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Tui's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post
The host can certainly have some impact, but I would expect that the plug-in itself would be the most important factor. Just to be sure: you have configured Kontakt to enable multiprocessor support, yes?
Yes.

Actually, this thread and the comments have helped quite a bit. Thanks again to all. I found I get considerably better results with Kontakt standalone. The next step was reducing the sample rate to 32k which got rid of the remaining clicks and pops while still allowing for more than 100 voices. It looks like I will have a working solution by loading Kontakt into Bidule as a host at 32k. Tomorrow I'll try to figure out how to make Logic talk to Bidule via MIDI, shouldn't be too difficult.

Cheers!
Old 2nd January 2018
  #1542
yeah bidule rocks.. i use it to bridge a ton of things into my daw and using it to break out a few stand alone kontakt instances for using arpology as a midi arp rather then as an audio instrument..
Using Live in my case.. but hate how live has no hybrid tracks. let me know if you need any help.
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Old 2nd January 2018
  #1543
Tui
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Tui's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ataylor View Post
yeah bidule rocks.. i use it to bridge a ton of things into my daw and using it to break out a few stand alone kontakt instances for using arpology as a midi arp rather then as an audio instrument..
Using Live in my case.. but hate how live has no hybrid tracks. let me know if you need any help.


Wow, that's one crazy setup. I love the pedals!

I had completely forgotten about Bidule, haven't used it in yonks. However, Spitfire recommended it in their manual for the Hans Zimmer Piano, so I thought, why not. Its routing capabilities are great.
Old 2nd January 2018
  #1544
i use it to bridge hardwere between ableton and vienna ens. and other things. I use bidule for the midi backbone to connect things like maschine and breath control with all of the 8 iac driver virt. patches i made. this lets me hard code each of my keyboards to one track but still let my seaboard be happy and such.. i found that vienna handles all my 200 some odd vst plugins online at once very happily for live playing all those keyboards. I do a setup similar to what Vangelis does playing live with some automation and such. staying in midi - Demos up here - ATCS - Home

[/quote]
Old 2nd January 2018
  #1545
Tui
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Tui's Avatar
Great stuff! Isn't technology wonderful - when everything actually works and you can focus on the music.
Old 3rd January 2018
  #1546
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MusiKLover's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
Great stuff! Isn't technology wonderful - when everything actually works and you can focus on the music.
It's nice to see things actually get done in this thread! In addition to your Kontakt query, it has helped me to realize I really do not need/want an iMac Pro. I'm scoping out the 4.2GHz i7 iMac now. Happen to know of any place that does trade-ins? I have the original iMac Retina, though it is an i5, 3.5GHz, plenty of RAM, SSD. UAD helps, but the Kaby Lake sounds smokin'! The i5 is pretty silent, so I am moderately concerned about fan noise if I make the purchase. I think I can deal. I'm in no rush.
Old 3rd January 2018
  #1547
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
Thank you for your post.

I just created an account with VSL and requested a VEP demo. It said:

"You need at least one registered VSL product to request a demo license.
If you do not have any registered products, please register your ViennaKey (or Steinberg eLicenser USB protection device) and contact us directly at [email protected], we will provide you with a free demo license right away."

It looks as if I might "only" have to buy a dongle...

The question remains, would multi-core support with one live instrument be improved?
It does sound like if you buy the Vienna Key dongle from them if it counts as a registered product. The Vienna Key and the eLicenser are the same device.

You can go to the VSL forum and check out the Ensemble Software posts. I don’t know if you can join and ask a question unless you are a registered VSL user.

FORUMS - Vienna Symphonic Library

Last edited by fastlanephil; 3rd January 2018 at 01:44 AM..
Old 3rd January 2018
  #1548
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Just gimme a goddam cheese grater with faster RAM, faster CPUs, a half-decent graphics card, 4 SATA drive bays, 2 optical bays that can be used for SSDs as is the case for my 2012 cheese grater, thunderbolt, PCIe slots and USB 3 and I, and I suspect half the friggin' Mac-using pro-audio community will jump onboard faster than you can say greased lightnin'.
Old 3rd January 2018
  #1549
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
Do you have any experience with VEP and Kontakt - does Kontakt run better or worse on its own? Could VEP improve multicore support with Kontakt?

I guess I will try out VEP at some stage, but I first have to buy one of those dongles... Ugh.
Although you more or less already seem to have answers: I rarely test standalone components, as 99% of our customers use a host.
My guess is that standalone would be more efficient, but as a host VEP will beat most if not all other hosts.

VEP brilliantly fills cores not used by other hosts which is especially nice on systems with lots of cores.
Old 3rd January 2018
  #1550
Tui
Gear Guru
 
Tui's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastlanephil View Post
The Vienna Key and the eLicenser are the same device.
Are they literally the same..? I don't seem to find an answer on the net. It appears the Steinberg key can hold VSL licenses, but is the same true in reverse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastlanephil View Post
You can go to the VSL forum and check out the Ensemble Software posts. I don’t know if you can join and ask a question unless you are a registered VSL user.

FORUMS - Vienna Symphonic Library
Thank you, I'll check it out.
Old 3rd January 2018
  #1551
Tui
Gear Guru
 
Tui's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Man View Post
Just gimme a goddam cheese grater with faster RAM, faster CPUs, a half-decent graphics card, 4 SATA drive bays, 2 optical bays that can be used for SSDs as is the case for my 2012 cheese grater, thunderbolt, PCIe slots and USB 3 and I, and I suspect half the friggin' Mac-using pro-audio community will jump onboard faster than you can say greased lightnin'.
Man, you put the finger on it. There was nothing whatsoever wrong with the cheese-grater. Great design. I now feel like an idiot for having sold mine for scrap metal after the main board blew... I could have put a monster hack inside. The fans alone were brilliant, large and quiet.
Old 3rd January 2018
  #1552
Tui
Gear Guru
 
Tui's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
VEP brilliantly fills cores not used by other hosts which is especially nice on systems with lots of cores.
Right. I feel I need to take a closer look. Thanks.
Old 3rd January 2018
  #1553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
Are they literally the same..? I don't seem to find an answer on the net. It appears the Steinberg key can hold VSL licenses, but is the same true in reverse?
They are identical, they use the same code etc. The difference is the logo on the plastic shell.
Steinberg bought Syncrosoft, the eLicenser manufacturer, years ago, but kept and added new companies to its client list.
Old 3rd January 2018
  #1554
Tui
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Tui's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
They are identical, they use the same code etc. The difference is the logo on the plastic shell.
Steinberg bought Syncrosoft, the eLicenser manufacturer, years ago, but kept and added new companies to its client list.
I see, thanks!
Old 3rd January 2018
  #1555
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jwh1192's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
Man, you put the finger on it. There was nothing whatsoever wrong with the cheese-grater. Great design. I now feel like an idiot for having sold mine for scrap metal after the main board blew... I could have put a monster hack inside. The fans alone were brilliant, large and quiet.
i have two here .. older ones that do not startup .. was thinking of making Hack's in these too !!!
Old 4th January 2018
  #1556
Gear Head
 

I can't resist adding in my two cents as Ive been very frustrated with Apples lack of basic legacy support and the existential frustration of recording interfaces on a Mac.

Very annoyed Apogee dropped new support of old firewire ensemble (yeah its old but c'mon it was the top of the line product from them. And yeah totally thats apogees fault but kind of also related to apples drop of firewire) and apple drops security support of its OS within only about three years. Meaning you are forced to constantly upgrade to keep up with security but also are breaking all of your old plugins and interfaces all the time. Contrast with windows where you can still use windows 7 until at least 2020.

New MacBook pros with glued on hard drives and memory are just awful....... I've swapped out hard disks and memory upgrades on every laptop Ive owned and the idea that they are selling a 256 hd as standard in a new MacBook Pro is just.. kind of sad.

So yeah I dunno. Absolutely love Logic but my next computer will have to be a windows PC. Windows 10 is actually very good and all the other DAWs have gotten a lot better since 2007 when I first got into recording.
Old 4th January 2018
  #1557
Sky
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Sky's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
Man, you put the finger on it. There was nothing whatsoever wrong with the cheese-grater. Great design. I now feel like an idiot for having sold mine for scrap metal after the main board blew... I could have put a monster hack inside. The fans alone were brilliant, large and quiet.
Last year the backplane and 5770 video card on my 2010 5,1 6-Core failed. After weighing the options, I dropped several hundred dollars into an Apple-authorized repair. While painful, it was and still is my best possible investment. I would have spent 2-3x more for a less elegant Mac OS solution buying new. Pro audio users are probably looking at 2019 for a practical path forward with Apple hardware.

Sky
Old 4th January 2018
  #1558
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Man View Post
Just gimme a goddam cheese grater with faster RAM, faster CPUs, a half-decent graphics card, 4 SATA drive bays, 2 optical bays that can be used for SSDs as is the case for my 2012 cheese grater, thunderbolt, PCIe slots and USB 3 and I, and I suspect half the friggin' Mac-using pro-audio community will jump onboard faster than you can say greased lightnin'.
Man, you put the finger on it. There was nothing whatsoever wrong with the cheese-grater. Great design. I now feel like an idiot for having sold mine for scrap metal after the main board blew... I could have put a monster hack inside. The fans alone were brilliant, large and quiet.
Amen, brother.
Old 4th January 2018
  #1559
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostInDaMachine View Post
If only all of us Apple users could stop bickering, stop saying that people hate kn Apple because their successful, and instead come together and admit they've let some serious aspects of their hardware and OS slip.
And hold Apple accountable in someway.

It's either their quality control, or the lack of thinking of devices as tools as opposed to trendy cool little gadgets with the latest and greatest tech and industrial design.

Apple sure seems to be just trying to sell things instead and get people hooked into a digital ecosystem, as opposed to making machines that genuinely make our lives easier and that we actually spend LESS time with.

But instead of the power user base coming together, some people try to rationalize and justify the design and engineering. The features etc.
Say that people are Apple haters.
Well, that criticism can be useful and some of us aren't haters.
We've just been on the Apple ship for a decade or so and watched over the past 5 years or so as they seemed to have really forgot about their pro users.
I think Apple users aren't "bickering" just because they might react to partially ridiculous statements about Apple products. Such statements get in the way of useful and relevant critique of Apple's handling of their different market segments.

One example of irrelevant critique is the lack of headphone jack in iPhones. iPhones are not Macs and Macs do indeed have head phone jacks, so this is is always irrelevant.

Another is the claim that iOS and macOS are merging. They simply are not and anyone claiming they are doesn't really know OSes. Not even the Clusterwhatever they call "High Sierra" is anything "iOS".

Now I'm sure a vast majority of "Pro users" , to which I'd like to add a number of like-minded "non-Pro users", can agree on that Apple have done some grave mistakes moving forward. For example while going all USB-C is an idea with merit, they haven't handled the dire needs of users with investments with an older array of connectors very well.

They could have offered clear solutions and not only rely on third party products and they could have communicated better how they imagined solving actual real problems
related to this.

Of course this is not a new situation, but when you're not only catering to Pro users, as Apple might have done in the nighties say, who more often than not know how to proceed, you need to make it easy to find solutions for integrating older gear. I truly believe this is in Apple's own financial interest.

So, I'm all for relevant and non Hyperbolic Apple critique. I'm more bored by the tired and from the couch conjecture that we hear too much of, also in this thread.

Last edited by Mikael B; 5th January 2018 at 01:07 AM..
Old 4th January 2018
  #1560
Tui
Gear Guru
 
Tui's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lossleader View Post
I can't resist adding in my two cents as Ive been very frustrated with Apples lack of basic legacy support and the existential frustration of recording interfaces on a Mac.

Very annoyed Apogee dropped new support of old firewire ensemble (yeah its old but c'mon it was the top of the line product from them. And yeah totally thats apogees fault but kind of also related to apples drop of firewire) and apple drops security support of its OS within only about three years. Meaning you are forced to constantly upgrade to keep up with security but also are breaking all of your old plugins and interfaces all the time.
How can I put this. Notice any similarities..?



As opposed to:



Topic:
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