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Tim Cook on Mac Desktop commitment Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 30th December 2017
  #1441
Gear Nut
 

The Mac you're using now that's 4-5 years old is still basically a Jobs legacy thing.

Tim Cook isn't necessarily a bad guy, he just has no real vision of his own.

I'm not talking about whether people are good or bad or not.
But if you look at guys like Jobs and Bezos, they succeeded because they didn't care about appeasing the board.
They didn't care about the money or the profit. They believed in what they were doing.

Tim doesn't seem to have this.
He's not so thouroughly convinced and driven by anything he's doing like
Jobs Or A Bezos.
Cook is failing because either because he has no genuine visions or thoughts of his own in terms of where the company should really go, Or because he's afraid to fail. Or both.
I mean what do you see when he talks? At the keynotes? When Apple releases a new product?
Jobs legacy. That's it.
Annnnnd a big minus to the professional consumer, who by the way tend to be much more loyal than your average consumer.

Tim basically has no real vision for Apple other than maybe pushing the trendy disposable culture, consumer bs as a means of "bringing people together theough technology"

I don't want a tiny tinder social media machine with news and weather on my wrist.
I want something that holds lots of gigabytes and gighertz and makes my music making as stable and efficient as possible. And is upgradable.

That laptop you've had for 5 years, if it's it's one of the last ones that was truly upgradable. After 2012 it was fixed ram and pci hardrives.
It's not that Tim Cook is a bad guy.
I don't think he's a bad guy, but he's going the basic CEO route.
Appease your customers and shareholders by making popular items and marketing the hell out of them.
Granted, that's the culture we are immersed in now. But who does it benefit? Truly?

Are you really helping people and bringing people together this way?
Hell no.
You're making cool trendy lil bull**** that sells and keeps people distracted and spending more money, more so than it helps them be productive.
That's the culture.

If Tim Cook wanted to he could change that culture, make extremely well engineered professional machines that were uogradeabale, for very reasonable prices and help more small businesses succeed.
He doesn't care nor does he believe that's the way forward. Jobs might have been this close minded if he were alive today too.

Perhaps it's me that's close minded.
I sure as hell would like to go back to 2012 and before macs where you could easily work on them or upgrade them.
But that's just not today's society for the most part. Most people just want it to work and be done with it.
I like to tinker, create and fix things, although my patience with computers sure isn't what it used to be.
Old 30th December 2017
  #1442
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Mikael, doesn't the iMac Pro fulfill your needs? What is missing?

Alistair
Well, I have a pet peeve about non-expandability. There's Apple shooting themselves in the foot again. Yes, I do realize the RAM modules and SSDs are placed in odd places, but nevertheless!

Beyond that little palaver a 10-core 32GB/2TB might fit the bill. That's $7,278.00 (incl. the Vesa Mount) not counting Apple Care. Or go 64GB at $800 more.

It would be nice to know something about the specs of the Mac Pros coming.
Old 30th December 2017
  #1443
Lives for gear
Quote:
I liked that one even if I don't believe in that conclusion. Thanks!.
Old 30th December 2017
  #1444
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Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsrono View Post
I didn't mean to imply that Jobs had no hand in it's inception.
Jobs was very much involved in the minutiae of Apple Park, not just its inception. As with the retail stores he was obsessively insistent on material selection, overall aesthetic, and many of the details that made it such a long, costly endeavor. The space a company's employees work in sets the tone for the products they build, and this project was very much about attention to detail and refusing to compromise.
Old 30th December 2017
  #1445
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post
Jobs was very much involved in the minutiae of Apple Park, not just its inception. As with the retail stores he was obsessively insistent on material selection, overall aesthetic, and many of the details that made it such a long, costly endeavor. The space a company's employees work in sets the tone for the products they build, and this project was very much about attention to detail and refusing to compromise.
All I ask is this attention to detail in all of the Apple products, certainly Macs.
Old 30th December 2017
  #1446
Gear Maniac
 

After reading so many complaints about Cook, I wonder how this guy can still lead... what ? The richest company on earth ? He really needs to take advice on GS, or Apple is in real trouble haha (I’ll subscribe immediately to the quantum physic thread on GS to improve my scientific culture).
Old 31st December 2017
  #1447
Gear Maniac
 
tsrono's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post
Jobs was very much involved in the minutiae of Apple Park, not just its inception. As with the retail stores he was obsessively insistent on material selection, overall aesthetic, and many of the details that made it such a long, costly endeavor. The space a company's employees work in sets the tone for the products they build, and this project was very much about attention to detail and refusing to compromise.
Yes, I read all about it as well. For the third time, I'm simply surprised that Apple actually followed through on it.

I would disagree with 'the space a company's employees work in sets the tone...' because that's not my experience (at least, it's not a huge influence. it CAN be partially influential, sure, but to the tune of 5 billion or whatever...I dunno about all that.)
Old 31st December 2017
  #1448
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
No, seriously, please do start your own thread with a suitable title. And take everyone else, including mininoyz, rezoneight and others seemingly wanting to discuss the virtues of Windows 10 with you. This is not a thread for tired rants about which OS or platform is the best. It's about Apple desktops. Period!

Whenever a reader wants to learn about Windows they'll read about Windows in discussion focused on that. How hard is that to understand?
Fair point, but my main point was to simply build your own machine rather than wait around for Apple to get their heads out of their a**es. That's what I did and what many other creative pros outside of audio have done. Peace.
Old 31st December 2017
  #1449
Gear Maniac
 
tsrono's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mininoyz View Post
After reading so many complaints about Cook, I wonder how this guy can still lead... what ? The richest company on earth ? He really needs to take advice on GS, or Apple is in real trouble haha (I’ll subscribe immediately to the quantum physic thread on GS to improve my scientific culture).
Old 31st December 2017
  #1450
Gear Maniac
 
tsrono's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
All I ask is this attention to detail in all of the Apple products, certainly Macs.
I'll be an Apple customer again if they do. Computers are almost an afterthought to them at this point. Until then, Windows it is for better or for worse (maybe worse )
Old 31st December 2017
  #1451
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stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsrono View Post
I'll be an Apple customer again if they do. Computers are almost an afterthought to them at this point. Until then, Windows it is for better or for worse (maybe worse )
So you find more attention to detail in Windows PCs?

Can you name an actual example where attention to detail is better? Like, how is attention to detail better, say, in UI elements, in build materials (like aircraft grade aluminum), in construction techniques, in part quality, in software consistency, etc.?


In the past, lack of attention to detail was one of the major downsides of Windows PCs. What have they done to catch up and beat Apple at their own game?
Old 31st December 2017
  #1452
Gear Maniac
 
tsrono's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
So you find more attention to detail in Windows PCs?

Can you name an actual example where attention to detail is better? Like, how is attention to detail better, say, in UI elements, in build materials (like aircraft grade aluminum), in construction techniques, in part quality, in software consistency, etc.?


In the past, lack of attention to detail was one of the major downsides of Windows PCs. What have they done to catch up and beat Apple at their own game?
1) No. Comparable attention to detail? Some PCs, sure.
2) Surfaces are generally very nice, plenty of attention to detail. Not sure if they're using "aircraft grade aluminum" but you gave me a chuckle mentioning that (sorry but it just sounds like fanboy speak to me) so thanks. More nice than MacBook or whatever? I have no idea, can't really measure that, I see what you're getting at but they're almost all going to be preferences versus right or wrongs. I've owned both and they're each very nice. Apple make some nice computers. Surfaces are also nice. I'm sure there are some other PCs that are great computers with lots of attention to detail.
3. Attention to detail isn't the only factor. I was a touch overstating that just that would bring me back, but it could be a sign of Apple heading in the right direction. And by detail I'm not imagining stuff like you mention, I'm thinking about details like "listen to our customer complaints and actually follow through on addressing them" or "not rush out updates before they're actually ready" or even "update our hardware in ways that make sense for our consumers and isn't just convenient for us" which is where I've had the biggest issues.

Maybe details is the wrong word...maybe, "major issues" would be a phrase more apt for my problems with them.

But ultimately I think assuming I think Windows is great or superior even because I'm using it now is understandably a mistake though...I don't too much care which I'm using, Windows is just a better choice for me for the foreseeable future. I'm keeping my options open for the long run of course, hence keeping up with a silly thread like this one :P
Old 31st December 2017
  #1453
Lives for gear
 
Mike O's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
So you find more attention to detail in Windows PCs?

Can you name an actual example where attention to detail is better? Like, how is attention to detail better, say, in UI elements, in build materials (like aircraft grade aluminum), in construction techniques, in part quality, in software consistency, etc.?


In the past, lack of attention to detail was one of the major downsides of Windows PCs. What have they done to catch up and beat Apple at their own game?
It really doesn't have to be a zero sum game Apple v. Windows (or MS when convenient). Apple didn't become Apple by Jobs comparing his ideas to Gates.

It seems to me the criticism is leveled by some people that Apple when compared to itself, is less innovative in recent years. Some people seem to believe that Apple appears to not have the focus that they believe existed in earlier years.
Old 31st December 2017
  #1454
Gear Maniac
 

The difference at Apple between now and then is probably because they... think different.
The market has so much evolved since 10 years, we can’t wait them to make the same thing. If I had a real wish, it would to be to sync several Macs as a cluster. That could solve many of our complaints which are basically all related to pure CPU power.
Old 31st December 2017
  #1455
Lives for gear
 
Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsrono View Post
I would disagree with 'the space a company's employees work in sets the tone...' because that's not my experience
I've certainly seen my share of workplaces that weren't meaningful contributors, but I've worked at a couple where it was a big deal. Certainly Steve Jobs was a believer with a history of inspiring teams by creating an environment where they can be productive and are surrounded by what he viewed as exemplary artifacts. I have to agree with him on the Bösendorfer grand he famously placed with the original Macintosh team.

The old Apple campus was a special place built in the early 90s that the company simply doesn't fit into, so they are paying for a ton of scattered facilities in and around Cupertino. Pulling more people into fewer buildings does make a difference, making collaboration easier and giving the company more control over the spaces its employees occupy, as many of the scattered facilities were less than inspiring.
Old 31st December 2017
  #1456
Lives for gear
 
stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike O View Post
Some people seem to believe that Apple appears to not have the focus that they believe existed in earlier years.

That's the key point.


I remember 'Apple has lost it', 'Apple is doomed', 'Apple can't innovate anymore', 'Apple ignores pros' since, basically, forever. The same tired nonsense over and over again. This has nothing whatsoever to do with Jobs or Cook - remember the drama when the original iMac came out? No floppy drive. The drama when iPod came out first? Macbook Air?


When you ask about specifics, like supposed changes in attention to detail, nothing comes back. Because it's all just moody rants, trying to create a narrative that matches the idiotic 'Apple has lost it' preconceptions.
Old 31st December 2017
  #1457
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MusiKLover's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
That's the key point.


I remember 'Apple has lost it', 'Apple is doomed', 'Apple can't innovate anymore', 'Apple ignores pros' since, basically, forever. The same tired nonsense over and over again. This has nothing whatsoever to do with Jobs or Cook - remember the drama when the original iMac came out? No floppy drive. The drama when iPod came out first? Macbook Air?


When you ask about specifics, like supposed changes in attention to detail, nothing comes back. Because it's all just moody rants, trying to create a narrative that matches the idiotic 'Apple has lost it' preconceptions.
Imagine what would be flying around the airwaves if Apple dumped PowerPC for Intel today! In hindsight, it was a quite good strategic decision considering clock speed, multicore, heat, etc.
Old 31st December 2017
  #1458
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Mike O's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
That's the key point.


I remember 'Apple has lost it', 'Apple is doomed', 'Apple can't innovate anymore', 'Apple ignores pros' since, basically, forever. The same tired nonsense over and over again. This has nothing whatsoever to do with Jobs or Cook - remember the drama when the original iMac came out? No floppy drive. The drama when iPod came out first? Macbook Air?


When you ask about specifics, like supposed changes in attention to detail, nothing comes back. Because it's all just moody rants, trying to create a narrative that matches the idiotic 'Apple has lost it' preconceptions.
I see where you are coming from, but do you really think it serves any useful purpose to have no constructive feedback for the company you revere? Or did I miss something (anything) Apple did recently that you thought they could have done better? In kind, specifics please.

Just a thought.....

P.S. I think that, although I might disagree, others have indeed provided specifics with regard to the iMac Pro (for example).
Old 31st December 2017
  #1459
Gear Maniac
 
tsrono's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
That's the key point.


I remember 'Apple has lost it', 'Apple is doomed', 'Apple can't innovate anymore', 'Apple ignores pros' since, basically, forever. The same tired nonsense over and over again. This has nothing whatsoever to do with Jobs or Cook - remember the drama when the original iMac came out? No floppy drive. The drama when iPod came out first? Macbook Air?


When you ask about specifics, like supposed changes in attention to detail, nothing comes back. Because it's all just moody rants, trying to create a narrative that matches the idiotic 'Apple has lost it' preconceptions.
tsk tsk tsk

Someone is making a lot of assumptions and conflating arguments made by the general masses while ignoring specifics. Don't involve me and my words and your ignoring of them as examples for your grandiose claims. And certainly don't attach them to some narrative that I am in fact arguing against? For shame.

This is exactly the reason I had kept out of this thread for many, many pages and just browsed it, but alas, I just had to offer my perspective today. It's my own fault, really.
Old 31st December 2017
  #1460
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike O View Post
I see where you are coming from, but do you really think it serves any useful purpose to have no constructive feedback for the company you revere? Or did I miss something (anything) Apple did recently that you thought they could have done better? In kind, specifics please.

Just a thought.....

P.S. I think that, although I might disagree, others have indeed provided specifics with regard to the iMac Pro (for example).
You're joking right? There are *tons* of things Apple could do better in many areas. That being said my opinion is they're still the best option out there. (yes I realize you weren't asking me but the other poster).

1. the quest for stuff so thin it almost disappears. bad choice.
2. see #1 ...then only USB-C on the new MacBook Pros.
3. Ham-fisted handling of the iPhone battery issue that just came up
4. Poor reading of the market for external peripherals when designing the current Mac Pro
5. piss poor iCloud service for the first several years.

The list can go on and on but even with a long list it's still shorter than anyone else's list.
Old 31st December 2017
  #1461
Gear Nut
 

People saying that this has nothing to do with with Tim Cook, or acting as though Tim doesn't need to listen to people on gearslutz, because we aren't smart enough, or don't represent the masses, etc.
That's like half the problem.
It's just wasting time and energy.
I've been saying Apple was slipping since 2013, maybe before then.
Because Logic, as a software wasn't being developed properly, it was glitchy, and they basically had just put in some new features, a newer GUI, and lowered the price so it was more accessible.
Plus the OS is and has been finicky as hell after 10.6.8, although Sierra seems to be doing well.

Apple is already known for not listening to its customers, thinking they know better about what consumers want than consumers. Well again, that might apply to people that want a device as a cool little trendy lifestyle thing.
That doesn't really apply to people that want a machine that they can use for real work. We tend to know better what we want, and your darn right we should be listened to. We use the machine and the software to make a living. We know it way better than the average user.
We know all the little quirks and glitches that you averge consumer probably wouldn't care about. Some of us are invested in the company and have been for a long time.
The attention to detail, the right ship that jobs ran while also allowing conflicting ideas, the focusing on products that truly make a difference for people that want to be PRODUCTIVE.
It's all gone. Sure the times have changed, but do you see Amazon coming out with kindles with face recognition, no buttons, etc?
No, because it's not practical.

With any kind of crazy success like Apple had with the iPod, iPhone, and iPad, there's going to be some serious arrogance and a time to basically reset and go back to roots a bit.

The Apple of today, under Tim Cook will sell absolutely you this idea at a keynote to sell you a new phone.
They would market the hell out of that idea, tell everybody it's the greatest thing ever, show you some features while playing some kind of cool little indie pop song in the background.

But it'd all be a lie.
And its such a contrived show, their keynotes. We should all know better by now.
Old 31st December 2017
  #1462
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Mike O's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
You're joking right? There are *tons* of things Apple could do better in many areas. That being said my opinion is they're still the best option out there. (yes I realize you weren't asking me but the other poster).

1. the quest for stuff so thin it almost disappears. bad choice.
2. see #1 ...then only USB-C on the new MacBook Pros.
3. Ham-fisted handling of the iPhone battery issue that just came up
4. Poor reading of the market for external peripherals when designing the current Mac Pro
5. piss poor iCloud service for the first several years.

The list can go on and on but even with a long list it's still shorter than anyone else's list.
Not kidding. I did see that. However I've never seen anything like this from stratology. I said very clearly that others, such as what you have quoted, mentioned things that Apple could have done better. But stratology has never, to my knowledge listed ANY specific thing HE thinks Apple could have done better.

FWIW - I think we agree on this list. I might ad their tax avoidance in an effort to create advantage from other EU members, but that would get political and so I will not.

And again, whether their list of short comings is shorter has nothing to do with what they could do better. That thinking is the enemy of the excellence most of us seek.
Old 31st December 2017
  #1463
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stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike O View Post
.. do you really think it serves any useful purpose to have no constructive feedback for the company you revere?
Quite the opposite, actually. The key word is 'constructive'.

The whole 'Apple is doomed' nonsense gets in the way of constructive feedback. Pointing out over and over again that a homebuilt piece of crap PC is cheaper than a Mac Pro gets in the way of constructive feedback. Assumptions about Cook's personality vs. Jobs' gets in the way of constructive feedback.


Marco Arment made a good point about his perception of software quality a while ago. Things like that can be a starting point for a constructive discussion - to name just one example.


The whole point of the thread, as a point of constructive feedback, is a good starting point as well. No significant updates to the Mac Pro in several years, even if it concerns only 1-3% (estimated) of the Mac user base, and no communication from Apple about it, is a valid point of criticism.


A large part of Apple's professional user base are developers, which lay the groundwork of the success for iOS with their apps. Apple not committing to that part of the user base would make no sense whatsoever.
Old 31st December 2017
  #1464
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
Please do tell me how I can't make music that has been professionally released on my (now 5 year old) MacBook Pro. That's about as prosumer as you can get. Or how my 4 person Architectural practice cant work on iMacs...in a professional setting.

If you can't get any work done on a Mac I'd suggest it's user error or perhaps your attitude?
It's not error. It's choice to not use them.
Old 31st December 2017
  #1465
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostInDaMachine View Post
I've been saying Apple was slipping since 2013, maybe before then.
You're wrong and you're not alone. You all want Apple to be something it's not anymore. Jobs is long dead. Let him go already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostInDaMachine View Post
The attention to detail, the right ship that jobs ran while also allowing conflicting ideas, the focusing on products that truly make a difference for people that want to be PRODUCTIVE.
You do realize that the Apple that Jobs ran was completely closed off. I'm glad that Apple is gone. If Jobs were still around I'd be surprised if we would have the productivity features they supplied in iOS11 (iPad), or public betas, or many of the other changes that have come around since he passed away. Good riddance to that Apple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostInDaMachine View Post
It's all gone. Sure the times have changed, but do you see Amazon coming out with kindles with face recognition, no buttons, etc?
No, because it's not practical.
No because Amazon is not capable of that kind of engineering. The devices they release are pretty much cheap garbage and they do that because most people like cheap garbage.

Let's talk about the iPhone for a second. Why does it need a home button still? The home "button" on my iPhone 8 Plus isn't really a button anyhow, it's just an indentation that looks like a button and its only purpose is for Touch ID. It uses haptic feedback to give the impression that it's a button but its not.

Let me guess, you're the type of person who thinks replacing Touch ID was blasphemy right? Because it worked so great. Where I live its very cold right now. Outside I'm always wearing gloves which negates Touch ID completely. Face ID works just fine in that environment. Oh and my hands are ridiculously dry because right now there is basically no humidity in the air. Touch ID is terrible in that scenario as well. Face ID will still figure out its me if my face is dry.

I know quite a few people who own the iPhone X and not one of them is complaining about Face ID or the lack of a home button.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostInDaMachine View Post
The Apple of today, under Tim Cook will sell absolutely you this idea at a keynote to sell you a new phone.
They would market the hell out of that idea, tell everybody it's the greatest thing ever, show you some features while playing some kind of cool little indie pop song in the background.

But it'd all be a lie.
And its such a contrived show, their keynotes. We should all know better by now.
Dude those keynotes are marketing. Do you expect they're not going to say the latest iPhone is the "best iPhone ever"? Of course its contrived, it's the whole point. It's a show. After the show is over you read between the lines. They're selling tons of devices because they're giving people something they want and in my opinion they're still the best option out there.
Old 31st December 2017
  #1466
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stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
..then only USB-C on the new MacBook Pros.
OK, something like that could be the starting point for constructive criticism, if you would care to point out what's so bad about USB-C in Macbook Pros.

USB-C connectors handle up to 40Gbps Thunderbolt traffic, which is, AFAIK, best in class. And it's backwards compatible to slower standards like Firewire, USB-3, etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
Ham-fisted handling of the iPhone battery issue that just came up
That's another rant, an emotional response, that gets in the way of technology discussion. Again, no specifics, and no context in the rest of the IT business.
Old 31st December 2017
  #1467
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike O View Post

And again, whether their list of short comings is shorter has nothing to do with what they could do better. That thinking is the enemy of the excellence most of us seek.
My point being that even with the faults I still think they're the best option out there. Others can disagree and that's fine but for the love of God please let the reasons be rational ones. "I hate Apple because they're successful" doesn't apply.
Old 31st December 2017
  #1468
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
A large part of Apple's professional user base are developers, which lay the groundwork of the success for iOS with their apps. Apple not committing to that part of the user base would make no sense whatsoever.
Apple for the most part treats their development community extremely well. Sure there are exceptions to that rule and there always are. Hardware is not an area they are treating developers poorly.
Old 31st December 2017
  #1469
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyjohn View Post
It's not error. It's choice to not use them.
That is irrelevant to what the guy said. It is fully possible to get music created on older Mac hardware. Now if you don't want to use the platform thats a completely different thing.
Old 31st December 2017
  #1470
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
OK, something like that could be the starting point for constructive criticism, if you would care to point out what's so bad about USB-C in Macbook Pros.

USB-C connectors handle up to 40Gbps Thunderbolt traffic, which is, AFAIK, best in class. And it's backwards compatible to slower standards like Firewire, USB-3, etc.
I didn't say USB-C was bad in MacBook Pros. I said having *only* USB-C in MacBook Pros was bad. A single USB-A port would have been nice so I wouldn't have had to buy a dongle to go from USB-C to USB-A to use the many USB 2/3 devices I've already got sitting on my desk. I don't but into this ever-thinner idea they've got going with the MacBook Pros. I've owned one since 2008. I am typing on a 2013 right now and in my opinion it's thin enough.



Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
That's another rant, an emotional response, that gets in the way of technology discussion. Again, no specifics, and no context in the rest of the IT business.
Oh come on. Had Apple simply noted what was going to happen as of iOS 10.2 with throttling of the CPU this wouldn't even be an issue. Sure some would have complained anyhow but there wouldn't have been the stupid conspiracy stories. It's like the piss-poor job they did with "Antennagate" where Jobs told us we were all holding it wrong. Really? They should have known better and just mentioned the battery thing. I think all of the reasoning is perfectly acceptable and I don't buy this nonsense of it just being Apple trying to sell more phones.
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