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Tim Cook on Mac Desktop commitment Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 28th December 2017
  #1381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latweek View Post
mgflip.com/i/21c7xk
If you have noting of value to add to the discussion, then please refrain from posting mere noise.
Old 28th December 2017
  #1382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
All they admit is that they made it thermally impossible to upgrade that form factor. They don't admit anything else about what makes that form factor anything but Pro for some of us who need PCIe slots and configurable hardware. I wouldn't expect them to design hardware for my needs ever again, since it's been like a decade since they offered anything reasonable. Thank goodness for the customac movement.
Yes, it's nice. As what is reasonable differs. I don't need PCIe and am very happy with Thunderbolt 3 and the gear on the outside. You need to hide cables and other things anyway so external gear seem like no big deal to me.
Old 28th December 2017
  #1383
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latweek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
If you have noting of value to add to the discussion, then please refrain from posting mere noise.
Hey slugger, stay in your lane. This is a thread that is so completely purposeless, that if you can't see the irony after 50 pages of this ridiculously meandering from a "Mac vs PC" debate, to blatantly erroneous information. It appears to be a form of argument honeypot, as you've obviously learned.

We need to lighten up and realize this stuff is like arguing the paint on the wall when most people reading this thread have entirely ignored major issues like room treatment, proper monitors, and oh......music performance.

And just for your educamication, the image (which you didn't get) humorously said what your post said, only while pointing out how Apple will ultimately find a way to screw it up. It's humor, ya know? Relax.

Thanks for caring.
Old 28th December 2017
  #1384
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MusiKLover View Post
Comparing the MS Surface to the iMac Pro is akin to dueling MS Excel to an Oracle RDBMS. However, if that is your position, so be it.
So you did not read the actual post either?? He did not say the Imac Pro, he said the "standard Imac 5k has no comparison in the PC world", which it very well does as I showed. You also do know what the Surface Pro is different from the surface? He also said the Imac pro was inventive with its "2 chips architecture" which is also completely wrong. Its funny watching people stumble over themselves though attempting to defend Apple. Team play semantics are always interesting.
Old 28th December 2017
  #1385
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Yes, it's nice. As what is reasonable differs. I don't need PCIe and am very happy with Thunderbolt 3 and the gear on the outside. You need to hide cables and other things anyway so external gear seem like no big deal to me.
The thousands of dollars of extra expenditure for external drive enclosures, PCIe to TB enclosures, TB cables, extra space needed for it all, all the extra power cables, extra power usage etc. There is a lot of reasons for people to dislike it on cost alone, nevermind the limited design and not really upgradeable. I am often bewildered why it got so much support, especially with the "save the earth" movement.
Old 28th December 2017
  #1386
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stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitardom View Post
Its funny watching people stumble over themselves though attempting to defend Apple.
It's funny to see people who have an ad for a PC company in they sig enter a thread about Tim Cook, and talk nonsense in a desperate attempt to advance their business.
Old 28th December 2017
  #1387
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitardom View Post
So you did not read the actual post either?? He did not say the Imac Pro, he said the "standard Imac 5k has no comparison in the PC world", which it very well does as I showed. You also do know what the Surface Pro is different from the surface? He also said the Imac pro was inventive with its "2 chips architecture" which is also completely wrong. Its funny watching people stumble over themselves though attempting to defend Apple. Team play semantics are always interesting.
I probably wrote these two sentences a few posts above. The few all-in-one PCs have always failed to succeed. The iMac pro has an ARM T2 chip to ensure some crucial functions. So, where am I wrong ?
The Surface Pro is also innovative, it's a kind of super iPad, with this idea (which is not shared by Apple) that one system can rule them all. It's probably a very good unit, very expensive and the best way to use Windows 10. But here is the problem (to me) : Windows 10 is unusable on a regular desktop. I mean, Seven is OK, but this tactile carpet over it is useless on a standard screen. On my daily use of MacOS (or Win7), I never feel the need to touch the screen.
Old 28th December 2017
  #1388
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitardom View Post
I used gitbash on Windows some since I am just faster at thinking Linux command line than any other. But now it is all basically implemented into Powershell now, so we can just work there for most things, but its not quite the full shell. But I meant actually using Bash in Linux. I use Linux for quite a bit of stuff. Bash shell is insanely powerful. I will be spending all next week on OSX to move a program over from Windows. I just find the OS another tool. They all have their benefits and I don't see a reason to be tied to one over the other.
We'll just have to agree to disagree then. I have so much customized on my Mac and how I do things macOS isn't just another tool. Could I get by with Windows or Linux? Probably. But I wouldn't be as productive or have as much fun as I do with the Mac.
Old 28th December 2017
  #1389
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jwh1192's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
I don't need PCIe and am very happy with Thunderbolt 3 and the gear on the outside. You need to hide cables and other things anyway so external gear seem like no big deal to me.
but it is to alot of us .. we do use PCIe still and the all on one form factor is a tried and true solution for workstations .. ht emore cables the more potential points of failure ..

i am sure you can see what i mean ..
Old 28th December 2017
  #1390
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
All they admit is that they made it thermally impossible to upgrade that form factor. They don't admit anything else about what makes that form factor anything but Pro for some of us who need PCIe slots and configurable hardware. I wouldn't expect them to design hardware for my needs ever again, since it's been like a decade since they offered anything reasonable. Thank goodness for the customac movement.
Pretty sure their hope was the external stuff would follow. They clearly intended for the expansion to happen via Thunderbolt and that never really materialized.
Old 28th December 2017
  #1391
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by latweek View Post
Hey slugger, stay in your lane. This is a thread that is so completely purposeless, that if you can't see the irony after 50 pages of this ridiculously meandering from a "Mac vs PC" debate, to blatantly erroneous information. It appears to be a form of argument honeypot, as you've obviously learned.

We need to lighten up and realize this stuff is like arguing the paint on the wall when most people reading this thread have entirely ignored major issues like room treatment, proper monitors, and oh......music performance..
There is no "irony". I started this thread because of an interest in Mac Desktops as music computers and the lackluster absence from Apple in this market segment. Any suggestions this is about PC vs Mac are misguided.

This remains an issue for Apple vs the wishes of their many different Pro customers with their differing needs, not always overlapping. What value you can get from a PC running Windows or whatever other OS is of limited value, beyond direct comparisons.

There have been a number of useful posts on the soon 50 pages and far from a majority of these have been platform wars. It's only natural Apple desktop owners, former or current, express their discontent with some of Apple's moves. This discontent in itself is not proof of anything beyond the experience of the authors of these posts. As such we should all respect these experiences. These are not all there is however, so let us not fool ourselves.

Personally I'm satisfied with that Apple have declared they are going to seriously build Pro desktops. I realize Pro machines come at a cost. This means Apple can't skimp any more. They can't leave a desktop behind because they built themselves into a corner any more. They need to get real. That journey and the facts is what this discussion should be about.
Old 28th December 2017
  #1392
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stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mininoyz View Post
The Surface Pro is also innovative, it's a kind of super iPad
I disagree with you on this one.

Any device that has a mouse/keyboard interface and a touch screen is about not getting the difference between the two, not understanding ergonomic design, not understanding user interaction, about thinking 'more is better' rather than 'better is better'. About not understanding why PC touchscreen computers were unsuccessful for over 10 years, before the iPad came out.



AFAIK, there's not a single app on the market that's optimised for a 4K size touch screen - meaning, it's designed for touch, and works better with touch than keyboard/mouse.


Surface Pro does not sell - too crappy even for Windows users, especially considering the price.
The 'if you ignore how bad it really is, it could, in theory, be an iMac competitor in a parallel universe' point is nonsensical, IMHO.
Old 28th December 2017
  #1393
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stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
This remains an issue for Apple vs the wishes of their many different Pro customers with their differing needs, not always overlapping.

One of the most interesting parts of the Gruber interview with Schiller and Federighi was that they stated that the vast majority of pro users are on Macbook Pros, the next smaller group on iMacs, and the smallest group (Gruber estimated under 1%) on Mac Pros.


So Apple seems to be quite aware of different types of pro users and their needs, and acknowledge the (small group of) pros that need/want Mac Pros, and spend significant resources to meet the needs of that group.
Old 29th December 2017
  #1394
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
One of the most interesting parts of the Gruber interview with Schiller and Federighi was that they stated that the vast majority of pro users are on Macbook Pros, the next smaller group on iMacs, and the smallest group (Gruber estimated under 1%) on Mac Pros.


So Apple seems to be quite aware of different types of pro users and their needs, and acknowledge the (small group of) pros that need/want Mac Pros, and spend significant resources to meet the needs of that group.
well, a part of that 1%, the Mac Pro users, do indeed feel neglected since already before 2013 and were not delighted with the 2013 models. Even while all of what you just wrote is likely true, that doesn't really change.

Unfortunately, even though I think this is a really important group to cater for, some of the members of this group at least on occasion make it sound as if their needs are almost the only valid ones. It's not easy to place your personal preferences and needs into a universe of other preferences and needs, so it's somewhat understandable this can happen.

While I have good hope for Apple, I do think they generally bad at communicating what they are doing and why. The old quote from Steve Jobs that you cannot build a machine to user specification, because that's not what they will want once your'e ready, is still true I think. But that doesn't mean Apple can ignore what different creators need to do with their Macs. Nor can they ignore the investments people have made in third party products. They need to make balanced decisions and learn from what they do. I'm not sure how well Apple learn. Firing people for mistakes for example is just preventing others from reporting possible errors in the future. Hopefully they don't do that any more.
Old 29th December 2017
  #1395
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mininoyz View Post
I probably wrote these two sentences a few posts above. The few all-in-one PCs have always failed to succeed. The iMac pro has an ARM T2 chip to ensure some crucial functions. So, where am I wrong ?
The Surface Pro is also innovative, it's a kind of super iPad, with this idea (which is not shared by Apple) that one system can rule them all. It's probably a very good unit, very expensive and the best way to use Windows 10. But here is the problem (to me) : Windows 10 is unusable on a regular desktop. I mean, Seven is OK, but this tactile carpet over it is useless on a standard screen. On my daily use of MacOS (or Win7), I never feel the need to touch the screen.
You said "dual chips", now you are saying "Arm T2 chip". That is quite a stretch to say I am wrong about your assertion. I am not sure of a language where "dual chips" translates to "Arm T2 Chip".

I would question if you have much seen an actual Windows 10 system in use. My Windows 10 desktops are no different than my Windows 7 desktops. The way I use 10 is literally no different from 7 (or OSX in that case). You don't even need to look at the "metro" or touch style UI they used on 8. I have never used it nor looked at it on 10.

Much larger computer manufactures like Dell- HP-Lenovo as example, each ship 4-5 times the amount of computers a year than Apple. They have been selling all in one units for years. Due to world marketshare alone, I would bet money their "all in ones" easily outsell the Imac in pure numbers. Its hard to say they are a failure, they are just not what most of us are interested in for a daw. PC users don't need to consider them for a music system, so why would we? Non Mac hardware users have options, it changes the focus. I pointed out the Surface Pro as a particular unit that does basically everything as the Imac, plus more.

Surfaces (both Pro and "tablet style") are full computers unlike the Ipad with a different mobile OS. I have ran Pro Tools with USB interfaces with no issues on a regular Surface for example. The "touch" aspect of the Surface Pro is geared towards artists and photo/video editing, hence its collaboration with Adobe. Its not just touch for the sake of having touch.

I say all of this as someone who uses PC's, still own and use macs, ipad, a surface, both an Iphone(6) and an android phone, use linux regulary, and have a Sierra VM I use as well (dont ask...). I just find so many claims and assertions from people who don't even use or "keep up" with the PC side to be rather ridiculous.

Last edited by guitardom; 29th December 2017 at 02:03 AM..
Old 29th December 2017
  #1396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
It's funny to see people who have an ad for a PC company in they sig enter a thread about Tim Cook, and talk nonsense in a desperate attempt to advance their business.
Yet I have not mentioned one thing about it, and the only PC I have mentioned is a MS product. Considering I also own a MBP, ipad, iphone, does that give me your "permission" to comment or show where ridiculous or false things are posted?? I really care about your obvious bias opinion towards Apple and lack of knowledge otherwise, so I really hope for your approval!
Old 29th December 2017
  #1397
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stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitardom View Post
does that give me your "permission" to comment or show where ridiculous or false things are posted??
You have my permission. It's an easy job - just quote your own posts.

Old 29th December 2017
  #1398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
You have my permission. It's an easy job - just quote your own posts.

Show me where I was wrong and I am on it....

I have no issue with Apple and use their products as well. But this cult like mentality of worship is seriously disturbing. Say 1 thing that is not "pro" Apple and people start spewing the most ridiculous nonsense with no concern of whether it is based in any truth or not and willfully ignoring their own ignorance or lack of knowledge. It would be funny if it were not so sad.
Old 29th December 2017
  #1399
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitardom View Post
Its funny watching people stumble over themselves though attempting to defend Apple. Team play semantics are always interesting.
GS is full of threads filled with those irrational junks and mods are domesticating those trolls spreading vomit while carefully pinching off the bud of "flamebait". It is somewhat interesting to see the ideology of the unique GS policy.
Old 29th December 2017
  #1400
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitardom View Post
You said "dual chips", now you are saying "Arm T2 chip". That is quite a stretch to say I am wrong about your assertion. I am not sure of a language where "dual chips" translates to "Arm T2 Chip".

I would question if you have much seen an actual Windows 10 system in use. My Windows 10 desktops are no different than my Windows 7 desktops. The way I use 10 is literally no different from 7 (or OSX in that case). You don't even need to look at the "metro" or touch style UI they used on 8. I have never used it nor looked at it on 10.

Much larger computer manufactures like Dell- HP-Lenovo as example, each ship 4-5 times the amount of computers a year than Apple. They have been selling all in one units for years. Due to world marketshare alone, I would bet money their "all in ones" easily outsell the Imac in pure numbers. Its hard to say they are a failure, they are just not what most of us are interested in for a daw. PC users don't need to consider them for a music system, so why would we? Non Mac hardware users have options, it changes the focus. I pointed out the Surface Pro as a particular unit that does basically everything as the Imac, plus more.

Surfaces (both Pro and "tablet style") are full computers unlike the Ipad with a different mobile OS. I have ran Pro Tools with USB interfaces with no issues on a regular Surface for example. The "touch" aspect of the Surface Pro is geared towards artists and photo/video editing, hence its collaboration with Adobe. Its not just touch for the sake of having touch.

I say all of this as someone who uses PC's, still own and use macs, ipad, a surface, both an Iphone(6) and an android phone, use linux regulary, and have a Sierra VM I use as well (dont ask...). I just find so many claims and assertions from people who don't even use or "keep up" with the PC side to be rather ridiculous.
Ok, my english is far from perfect, but a computer with an Intel and and ARM chip is a dual chip computer, that’s it. Read the iMac pro specs in detail. You can try to put me in the corner playing with words but you’re just wrong.
I also work everyday on MacOS and Win7, my wife has this ugly 10 at home and, as an administrator, I do know what’s a Win or Linux server.
I’ve seen all in one computers at home since 1984. It was a Macintosh. I’ve never seen any other all in one computers in use IRL since this date, but Macs. So I bet HP or Dell don’t sell many of them. And please don’t tell I’ve said they do not sell computers. I know this market a bit.
The Surface pro was designed as an iPad killer. It failed.
Oh, I also have a ****ty Android phone. I regret everyday my iPhone.
Old 29th December 2017
  #1401
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
One of the most interesting parts of the Gruber interview with Schiller and Federighi was that they stated that the vast majority of pro users are on Macbook Pros, the next smaller group on iMacs, and the smallest group (Gruber estimated under 1%) on Mac Pros
Well Doh. They design a horrible circular iMac while pretending it is a pro machine, the market reacts accordingly and don't buy it and then Apple say people don't want Mac Pro's. Talk about self fulfilling prophecies...

Quote:
So Apple seems to be quite aware of different types of pro users and their needs, and acknowledge the (small group of) pros that need/want Mac Pros, and spend significant resources to meet the needs of that group.
Apple haven't produced a pro desktop machine in a decade. They have no idea what pro's need (or don't care).

And it doesn't take "significant resources" to design a good tower case (they already had a very good design!). Instead Apple waste "significant resources" on really bad hipster designs. To me that makes them incompetent.

Alistair
Old 29th December 2017
  #1402
Gear Nut
 

Some interesting info on the iMac pro - RAID storage. I guess they’ll stare this design with the Mac Pro.

iMac Pro Base Model Teardown Reveals 2x SSD RAID Configuration and Four 8GB DIMM Modules - Mac Rumors
Old 29th December 2017
  #1403
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dazlermac View Post
Some interesting info on the iMac pro - RAID storage. I guess they’ll stare this design with the Mac Pro.

iMac Pro Base Model Teardown Reveals 2x SSD RAID Configuration and Four 8GB DIMM Modules - Mac Rumors
RAID 0 SSDs. Now you can scrap the "Pro" part IMO.
It increases the risk of data loss by more than 200%. As there is no reason to do this, 2TB NVMe's being available throughout, it is only done to reach the high bandwidth results in benchmarks for marketing purposes. Access time will not increase though, so such benchmarks are troubled opposed to single drives with high bandwidth. This means that some (but not all) user scenarios will only partly get an advantage out of this.
I don't think we ever released a system with RAID 0 and I highly doubt we will ever do so. For samples RAID 0 is fine, assuming the sample libs are easily available in case one of the drives fails. I would never ever use it for a system drive or project/recording/capturing drive.
As the iMac Pro is not a user servicable unit, you cannot simply replace the drive, run time machine and continue.

PS: I have read the comments below the article about RAID 0 and SSDs. Absolute nonsense, you cannot compare the internal operation of an SSD with a dedicated controller with 2 SSDs in an array through an external controller. SSDs have become very reliable, yet I still wouldn't use RAID 0 for anything else but sample drives.

Last edited by DAW PLUS; 29th December 2017 at 01:28 PM..
Old 29th December 2017
  #1404
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lowkey's Avatar
 

perhaps for spinners, but SSDs are way more reliable nowadays.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
RAID 0 SSDs. Now you can scrap the "Pro" part IMO.
It increases the risk of data loss by more than 200%. As there is no reason to do this, 2TB NVMe's being available throughout, it is only done to reach the high bandwidth results in benchmarks for marketing purposes. Access time will not increase though, so such benchmarks are troubled opposed to single drives with high bandwidth. This means that some (but not all) user scenarios will only partly get an advantage out of this.
I don't think we ever released a system with RAID 0 and I highly doubt we will ever do so. For samples RAID 0 is fine, assuming the sample libs are easily available in case one of the drives fails. I would never ever use it for a system drive or project/recording/capturing drive.
As the iMac Pro is not a user servicable unit, you cannot simply replace the drive, run time machine and continue.

PS: I have read the comments below the article about RAID 0 and SSDs. Absolute nonsense, you cannot compare the internal operation of an SSD with a dedicated controller with 2 SSDs in an array through an external controller. SSDs have become very reliable, yet I still wouldn't use RAID 0 for anything else but sample drives.
Old 29th December 2017
  #1405
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Well Doh. They design a horrible circular iMac while pretending it is a pro machine, the market reacts accordingly and don't buy it and then Apple say people don't want Mac Pro's. Talk about self fulfilling prophecies...
Except for the fact that people are still buying trashcan Mac Pros.
Old 29th December 2017
  #1406
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Well Doh. They design a horrible circular iMac while pretending it is a pro machine, the market reacts accordingly and don't buy it
This is not what happened nor is it what is likely to happen in the near future. Many pro users bought the iMacs and so did many others. Macs sell whether you and some other Pro users like them or not.

It's very true Apple has been out of the Pro desktop Mac game for real since 2014, despite sales of iMacs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Apple haven't produced a pro desktop machine in a decade. They have no idea what pro's need (or don't care).
I really think to judge the needs of all "Pro users" in the world solely based on your own needs or from your personal horizon risks leading to the wrong conclusions. It's sufficient to realize your Pro World haven't been catered for since a decade. But what you do and related companies are not everyone out there. This doesn't diminish your observations and reflections.

What Apple will do with the 2018 Mac Pro remains to be seen.
Old 29th December 2017
  #1407
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
Except for the fact that people are still buying trashcan Mac Pros.
Some people?

Some people are still buying horse drawn carriages. That doesn't mean that they are modern or professional transport devices...

Anyways, did you not see what I was responding to?

Alistair
Old 29th December 2017
  #1408
Gear Nut
 

@DAW PLUS

Some very good points above regarding RAID etc.. I hope that Apple open it up and allow th user to choose the Raid level on the up coming Mac Pro. Assuming it will have upgradable storage.

As for the dependability of SSDs, I think whether they are in a RAID or not, if a chip fails, gameover! Not the case with HDDs. So it’s all about backups
Old 29th December 2017
  #1409
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
perhaps for spinners, but SSDs are way more reliable nowadays.
Yes they are, nevertheless an increased risk with no real world advantage. Few people actually need that bandwidth. At least having a choice would be good IMO.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dazlermac View Post
@DAW PLUS

Some very good points above regarding RAID etc.. I hope that Apple open it up and allow th user to choose the Raid level on the up coming Mac Pro. Assuming it will have upgradable storage.

As for the dependability of SSDs, I think whether they are in a RAID or not, if a chip fails, gameover! Not the case with HDDs. So it’s all about backups
As stated, just more than double the risk. Obviously, any drive failing is a dead end, even more with a sealed system.
Old 29th December 2017
  #1410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mininoyz View Post
Ok, my english is far from perfect, but a computer with an Intel and and ARM chip is a dual chip computer, that’s it. Read the iMac pro specs in detail. You can try to put me in the corner playing with words but you’re just wrong.
I also work everyday on MacOS and Win7, my wife has this ugly 10 at home and, as an administrator, I do know what’s a Win or Linux server.
I’ve seen all in one computers at home since 1984. It was a Macintosh. I’ve never seen any other all in one computers in use IRL since this date, but Macs. So I bet HP or Dell don’t sell many of them. And please don’t tell I’ve said they do not sell computers. I know this market a bit.
The Surface pro was designed as an iPad killer. It failed.
Oh, I also have a ****ty Android phone. I regret everyday my iPhone.
Arm chips have been used for security for quite a long time , its nothing new. Part of the reason for their popularity for mobile devices (trustzone) Most systems with fingerprint sensors, camera recognition, etc. are using Arm processors. Its what Apple is using them for along with some external processing for the camera and so they leave Siri on 24/7. Even the newer MBP's have an Arm in them. Its not speeding up the computer or used for regular computing tasks, its strictly hardware security with a couple hardware hooks for the camera and siri. Not sure why you found that fascinating when its not the first, or before "non apple" PC's. using them for supplementary reasons You would be really annoyed to know that the Surface Pro with LTE uses one for "instant on" capabilities as example. Arms are moving heavily into the PC market period right now in all facets.

Again, I don't get what you are looking at with Windows 10. Its desktop is absolutely no different from 7. You do not have to have it in tablet view. If you don't like it, shut off tablet view and its identical to 7. Whenever you install Win 10 on a system, its default is the Desktop view. I never even have to look at or even acknowledge the tablet view exists.

Sorry, I have seen lots of the "all in ones" in recent years and have serviced quite a few of them. They exist, they sell. You can go to to any "non apple" computer retailer to this day (Best Buy for example) and purchase one. They are in any Sams Club, Costco, and Wal mart which service much of the "general public" purchases. Some of the highest rated computers of this past year were "all in ones" from companies like Dell. Lots of them are low quality, but most all manufactures make a flagship model. They would not still be on the market if they were not selling.

Again, my original comparison was the Surface Pro Studio, not the Surface Pro "non studio". But otherwise I own both a Surface and an Ipad. Again, they both have their benefits. My son (5 years old) loves the Ipad because he can operate it easily for his games and Netflix. Its wonderful for the entertainment side, using it for Control in Pro Tools, web surfing, etc. The Surface is better for actual work as it runs actual programs (not apps) is the "real computer" operating system and has USB ports. I can actually store files and documents and not have to be connected to the web to retrieve them from Dropbox or something, use it to connect to Cisco router/switches with putty/tera term. They serve different functions. Truthfully, I prefer my laptop over any of them. I have a MBP and various Win laptops (Linux VM's on eveything). Again, they all have their benefits.

You're not one of those people that are comparing a 150$ android phone to an almost 1k IPhone??? Phones like the Note 8 are amazing, but comparable in price. Most people I see complain are comparing apples to oranges. My Iphone 6 has turned into a turd the last 6 months. I took it in and had a new battery put in it a couple weeks ago. It helped some, but it has absolutely terrible battery life.

I seriously question if you know the market or if you "knew" the market at one time, due to obvious misgivings you have. You obviously know Apple, but that's the minority of the computer market.

btw, net admin here, CCNA, Linux certs, etc.
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