The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Tim Cook on Mac Desktop commitment Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 26th December 2017
  #1351
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitardom View Post
Like many MS products, you may not like the OS, but overall, it is far more flexible and useful than the Apple counterpart.
You might find it more flexible and useful but I know I certainly wouldn't. This type of thing is so related to personal preference and what types of tools a person uses that it's pretty ballsy to make a general statement like that.
Old 26th December 2017
  #1352
Lives for gear
 
stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitardom View Post
You state you are talking about the "regular" Imacs and there "is no contender in the PC world". I am showing you that they are not the only game in town, nor are they the best.
I didn't say any of that, but regardless: these are overpriced, underspecced computers that don't sell - estimated shipping of 120,000 units, compared to 3.5-4 million iMacs in the same time period.


Not sure what 'best' is supposed to mean - OS, lack of Thunderbolt, bundled software, price (that's around double of the non-pro iMacs), 5K vs. last generation 4K displays, outdated Bluetooth 4.0 spec?
Old 26th December 2017
  #1353
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
You might find it more flexible and useful but I know I certainly wouldn't. This type of thing is so related to personal preference and what types of tools a person uses that it's pretty ballsy to make a general statement like that.
Sure, of course its "personal preference". But it does everything a Imac would do (obviously different OS) and then a full touchscreen that was co opted with Adobe and tools like the dial. The screen can be positioned any number of ways and even laying down like a tablet.

Its irrelevant to me though. I would not buy any of these "all in one" units. Even the new Imac Pro's are variants of previous gen CPU's and clocked down from what you can get for a PC or Hackintosh.
Old 26th December 2017
  #1354
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
I didn't say any of that, but regardless: these are overpriced, underspecced computers that don't sell - estimated shipping of 120,000 units, compared to 3.5-4 million iMacs in the same time period.


Not sure what 'best' is supposed to mean - OS, lack of Thunderbolt, bundled software, price (that's around double of the non-pro iMacs), 5K vs. last generation 4K displays, outdated Bluetooth 4.0 spec?
You didn't say any of that????

Here is your quote
"Today... tomorrow... you’re too picky. And I was not referring only to the iMac pro. The whole line is regularly updated. A 5k iMac has no contender in the PC world. An the iMac is not a large MBP, that’s a mistake. The iMac has a very large heat dissipation surface. A portable machine dies slowly, even a very expensive one. A desktop can last for years with decent performances.
"
So... Yes, you did say that.

Its more money because it does significantly more. I could go and list all the things it does that Imac doesn't. They are different machines. I am not concerned about sales. VHS sold more than Betamax. The Surface studio is geared towards a more professional market to begin with. You would have to look at what it all it does to make sense of that. Apple can sell billions of computers though. It don't put money in my pocket, so I really don't care either way. Almost everything you list is almost non important. Outdated bluetooth spec...that matters?? Does a 5k screen make your waveforms sound better? Thunderbolt is personal preference. I sell tons of machines, and maybe half want Thunderbolt. Bundled software?? Did you make that up?? I already mentioned the OS issue.

I find these all in one machines a bit ridiculous to begin with in our field. It makes no sense to restrict yourself in internal storage, upgrade ability, serviceable parts, etc. Apple is 5 generations behind on the modern line of the 6 core and up processors. When it finally does come out with one, its still clocked slower than the current generation of processors.
Old 26th December 2017
  #1355
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitardom View Post
Surface Studio

Like many MS products, you may not like the OS, but overall, it is far more flexible and useful than the Apple counterpart.
Oh, yeah? That one is $4,200. So we can compare to the older iMac 27 inch 5k display, 4.2gHz quadcore 7th Gen i7 (4.5gHz turbo), 32GB Memory, 2TB SSD for $4,499. Actually this is not fair as the MS machine doesn't have an SSD, it's a "Hybrid Drive". Can you even get one?

You just made the old iMac look great. Keep it up!

Of course, one also have to consider iMac Pro as that is on order and the comparable base 27-inch 5k model with 3.2GHz 8-core Intel Xeon W processor, (4.2 gHz Turbo), 32GB memory and 2TB SSD is $5,799. That's 1,600 above the MS machine, but you get double the cores of the Intel Xeon W and a real SSD.
Old 27th December 2017
  #1356
Gear Maniac
 

@guitardom please quote the right person because now this dialog is a mess.
Old 27th December 2017
  #1357
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Oh, yeah? That one is $4,200. So we can compare to the older iMac 27 inch 5k display, 4.2gHz quadcore 7th Gen i7 (4.5gHz turbo), 32GB Memory, 2TB SSD for $4,499. Actually this is not fair as the MS machine doesn't have an SSD, it's a "Hybrid Drive". Can you even get one?
Not sure what a "Hybrid Drive" is but suspect its the same as an iMac Fusion Drive...combo of SSD and a spinning platter. As much of a Mac fan as I am the Surface still has the touch screen, etc that you cant get on any Mac desktop. Just flinging specs out there is a bit silly as they don't tell the whole story.

What it comes down to really is use the tools you like and expect that others will have different preferences than you. Problem solved. The fact that someone doesn't choose the same tools doesn't somehow make your choice wrong.
Old 27th December 2017
  #1358
Lives for gear
 
nativeaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
I don't consider that slow. Major changes? No but why do they need to do that? The only beef I've got with the current MacBook Pro is the limit of 16GB of memory but [...]
If you work with any of the popular sample libraries, 16 gb isn't enough. Maybe there's only that culprit, but that one is major for many of us.
Old 27th December 2017
  #1359
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitardom View Post
Sure, of course its "personal preference". But it does everything a Imac would do (obviously different OS) and then a full touchscreen that was co opted with Adobe and tools like the dial. The screen can be positioned any number of ways and even laying down like a tablet.

Its irrelevant to me though. I would not buy any of these "all in one" units. Even the new Imac Pro's are variants of previous gen CPU's and clocked down from what you can get for a PC or Hackintosh.
Yeah but again I wouldn't give a damn what the Surface does because I'm not about to throw out my investment in Mac hardware, and more importantly Mac software. The thing could fly around the room and I wouldn't want it.

iMac Pro is not a previous gen CPU. Xeon W that is in the iMac Pro was just released last quarter. Nor are they clocked down. Not sure where you're getting that information.
Old 27th December 2017
  #1360
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
If you work with any of the popular sample libraries, 16 gb isn't enough. Maybe there's only that culprit, but that one is major for many of us.
Then I guess you're not using a current generation MacBook Pro. It's a limitation of the hardware and what they wanted to achieve with battery life for a portable platform. What do you want them to do?
Old 27th December 2017
  #1361
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mininoyz View Post
@guitardom please quote the right person because now this dialog is a mess.
apparently Stratology nor myself can read today!!!
Old 27th December 2017
  #1362
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
Yeah but again I wouldn't give a damn what the Surface does because I'm not about to throw out my investment in Mac hardware, and more importantly Mac software. The thing could fly around the room and I wouldn't want it.

iMac Pro is not a previous gen CPU. Xeon W that is in the iMac Pro was just released last quarter. Nor are they clocked down. Not sure where you're getting that information.
It's a computer. I am going to write it off on taxes and build another in 3 years. They are about the most disposable large item purchase we make. Not sure why people get so caught up in it and playing teams when most things are cross platform anyway. An investment is a terrible way to look at it. Its kind of like a vehicle. We have to have it, but it does nothing but quickly lose value.

They are either using variants (which was the original speculation) or they are down clocking,or a combo.
8 core Xeon W, 3.7Ghz base, 4.5Ghz Turbo
8 core iMac pro - 3.2Ghz base, 4.2Ghz Turbo

I still don't see how they are going to push the turbo speeds over long periods with passive cooling. These are not cool running processors. The new 10 cores I have built run about 90c when the CPU is pinned with a large cooler on it.
Old 27th December 2017
  #1363
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitardom View Post
It's a computer. I am going to write it off on taxes and build another in 3 years. They are about the most disposable large item purchase we make. Not sure why people get so caught up in it and playing teams when most things are cross platform anyway. An investment is a terrible way to look at it. Its kind of like a vehicle. We have to have it, but it does nothing but quickly lose value.
You say “it’s a computer” like there is no difference which is silly. I don’t change computers every three years but I’m speaking more of an investment in learning/using vs money (that was not clear at all in my post). I use Logic and MainStage. No equivalent for those on Windows. I code for a living and a Windows PC is not a better alternative for the tools I use on a daily basis. Are there “equivalents”? Sort of but there is always some trade off I would need to make. Nor would I have the other tools I use on a daily basis, things like Alfred or Hazel. I’m not caught up in playing teams, Apple is just the platform that works the best for me. So again, the Surface is irrelevant because it doesn’t run macOS.
Old 27th December 2017
  #1364
Tui
Gear Guru
 
Tui's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
If you work with any of the popular sample libraries, 16 gb isn't enough. Maybe there's only that culprit, but that one is major for many of us.
I do not think this is true anymore. Modern SSDs are so fast that they almost act as RAM. I mostly stream from external Samsung USB3 SSDs.

I use very large libraries - Hans Zimmer Piano at 211 GB compressed and 452 GB uncompressed, for example - without any problems, with "only" 16 GB in my quad Mini i7. With this library, Kontakt typically loads about 430 MB into memory, and the disk meter stays around 0-1% usage at all times. I just tried loading merely 130 MB into RAM, and disk usage increased to 0-2% - hardly a worry. There are no audible performance differences.

The performance bottleneck, these days, is CPU power...
Old 27th December 2017
  #1365
Sky
Lives for gear
 
Sky's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mininoyz View Post
After reading this article, I’d say it wasn’t a mistake. It was a bet, and Apple lost it. As many Apple ´innovations’, the idea is explained in this sentence of the article : ´was designed to fit two smaller graphics chips, but the industry didn’t move in that direction.´ And that’s not the first time Apple tried to give such direction to the industry. Think about USB, FW or TB...
I think Apple's mistake was its unwillingness to fall gracefully once they knew they had lost their bet. Consider the Cube and Sunflower Macs; both were clever designs with some pros and cons that quickly disappeared from the market. Apple would have been better off canning the trashcan and reverting to a cheesegrater with Thunderbolt and modern graphics card options, long enough to design a platform that A/V pros have indicated they want.

Sky

Last edited by Sky; 27th December 2017 at 11:50 AM..
Old 27th December 2017
  #1366
Tui
Gear Guru
 
Tui's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky View Post
I think Apple's mistake was its unwillingness to fall gracefully one they knew they had lost their bet. Consider the Cube and Sunflower Macs; both were clever designs with some pros and cons that quickly disappeared from the market. Apple would have been better off canning the trashcan and reverting to a cheesegrater with Thunderbolt and modern graphics card options, long enough to design a platform that A/V pros have indicated they want.

Sky
Well, yes, and you may remember when the trashcan came out and was criticised for being impractical, we had to endure the same fan-based vitriol as we do now. When you criticise one of the numerous idiotic decisions by Apple, some people jump up and down and call you all sorts of names. Then, when Apple finally admit to having screwed up, the same people come back with a "I told you so, I always thought it was a bad idea".

Last edited by Tui; 27th December 2017 at 05:48 PM..
Old 27th December 2017
  #1367
Lives for gear
 
nativeaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
I do not think this is true anymore. Modern SSDs are so fast that they almost act as RAM. I mostly stream from external Samsung USB3 SSDs.
I have several SSDs as well... I don't think running single large libraries is a problem, I don't have problems with that either. But when working with orchestral libraries, there's not only many instruments (which usually come with between 3 and 7 mic positions), there are crossfading between dynamic layers (usually there are between 3 and 5 of them), there are lots of articulations, and each of these layers are also sampled with multiple vibrato layers.
Pianos are usually the least problematic instruments to deal with: there are no vibrato layers,one doesn't need to crossfade between several dynamic layers and so on.

I have 32 gb in my Mac Pro, but would certainly like more, and what I do with orchestral libraries is pretty simple stuff compared with what many others do, where even 64 gb wouldn't be enough (all these people are of course streaming of SSDs).

I wouldn't expect a laptop to run the newest VSL library, for instance, which has 8 dynamic layers + several mic positions and so on.

So even for a relatively basic orchestral library, 16 gb is problematic. And while 32gb ins't ideal either, it could work for a portable setup. PC laptops have offered 32 gb RAM for a while, and while I understand why the current Apple solution doesn't offer that, it would be so much better if the users could choose.
Old 27th December 2017
  #1368
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
while I understand why the current Apple solution doesn't offer that, it would be so much better if the users could choose.
Obviously.
Old 27th December 2017
  #1369
Quote:
Originally Posted by mininoyz View Post
That said Apple still makes the best computers today. If we define ´computer’ as a whole machine including the OS. And ´best’ as ´usable, stable and pretty on your desk’. Linux or Windows machines can be as good (at least), but require a very good hardware basis and a deep knowledge to be properly optimized, especially for audio.
You have compared all the available turnkey solutions? While Apple does a really great job offering a good out of the box experience, there are multiple turnkey vendors offerings systems which I easily see as the better professional choice when directly comparing. Only if personal preference for OSX or another OS comes into play, this "better" becomes worthless as the OS preference for many is based on what they know and on what experience they have. In the end, any OS, as long as the applications which are used are well programmed, can do an extremely similar job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Most muso tech types (myself included - I’ve built PCs before) are far from ignorant with computers - they just, as you say, want to spend their time where it pays - on their job - rather than tinkering. Plus of course they need a machine that works right the first time.

Not saying you can’t get that with a specialist PC of course, but you don’t get it randomly by just sticking s bunch of cheap parts in a case - you have to do your research and spend the time on it (or have spent the time on it). Personally I’d rather pay someone to do that for me, and earn money to pay for it doing my job. I come out ahead in the long run (and spend more time doing what I enjoy).
That is one part - professionals rather paying someone to do a proper job instead of wasting time fiddling themselves.
The other part is that most self built systems are simply not comparable regarding stability and noise. They offer speed, but slight lack of knowledge may lead to handbrakes or compatibility issues or even instability. In that case, Windows is to blame, as usual, while actually the builder/person who configures the system is to blame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitardom View Post
They are either using variants (which was the original speculation) or they are down clocking,or a combo.
8 core Xeon W, 3.7Ghz base, 4.5Ghz Turbo
8 core iMac pro - 3.2Ghz base, 4.2Ghz Turbo
I was wondering this as well, both the 8 and 10 core base clocks are lower in the iMac Pro than the chips actually offer. Either they are downclocked which makes no sense compared to the 14 and 18 cores, which have correct speed values, or Apple marketing got old specifications long ago but never updated them (or never got the updated information at the correct channels).
Old 28th December 2017
  #1370
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitardom View Post
Surface Studio

Like many MS products, you may not like the OS, but overall, it is far more flexible and useful than the Apple counterpart.
Certainly not in my opinion!
Old 28th December 2017
  #1371
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by climber View Post
Certainly not in my opinion!
I still have to hear 1 person say what it cannot do that the Imac can from a hardware standpoint (ignoring the OS as I pointed out originally). The Surface Pro can do quite a few things the Imac cannot. If the Imac would up its game to what MS has implemented with its screen and maneuverability, everyone would be saying how amazing of an upgrade it is. It's funny watching "team play" at work.
Old 28th December 2017
  #1372
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
You say “it’s a computer” like there is no difference which is silly. I don’t change computers every three years but I’m speaking more of an investment in learning/using vs money (that was not clear at all in my post). I use Logic and MainStage. No equivalent for those on Windows. I code for a living and a Windows PC is not a better alternative for the tools I use on a daily basis. Are there “equivalents”? Sort of but there is always some trade off I would need to make. Nor would I have the other tools I use on a daily basis, things like Alfred or Hazel. I’m not caught up in playing teams, Apple is just the platform that works the best for me. So again, the Surface is irrelevant because it doesn’t run macOS.
Its funny you say that. I do a LOT of work in Python and I am looked at as a weirdo because I am more fluent using it on Windows than on Linux or OSX. I literally have to show everyone how to navigate through Windows in Python for cross platform stuff. I can also work heavily in Bash, which for some things is still quicker to create than in Python. I have also been working in OSX for about 20 years. Either of the 3 OS's is irrelevant to me. I really wish the world would just go Linux. I was in South America recently and it was odd to see how "normal" Linux is there.
Old 28th December 2017
  #1373
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitardom View Post
Its funny you say that. I do a LOT of work in Python and I am looked at as a weirdo because I am more fluent using it on Windows than on Linux or OSX. I literally have to show everyone how to navigate through Windows in Python for cross platform stuff. I can also work heavily in Bash, which for some things is still quicker to create than in Python. I have also been working in OSX for about 20 years. Either of the 3 OS's is irrelevant to me. I really wish the world would just go Linux. I was in South America recently and it was odd to see how "normal" Linux is there.
If Python on Windows works for you then more power to ya. I've had to do that in the past and prefer working on macOS. And i've always found bash on Windows to be painful because you're either using cygwin or something like gitbash both of which are slow and not native to the platform so there is always some goofiness to deal with. Maybe things will be better with the Ubuntu subsystem they've built into Win10.

Linux? ugh no thanks. Have tried that route too in the past.
Old 28th December 2017
  #1374
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitardom View Post
I still have to hear 1 person say what it cannot do that the Imac can from a hardware standpoint (ignoring the OS as I pointed out originally). The Surface Pro can do quite a few things the Imac cannot. If the Imac would up its game to what MS has implemented with its screen and maneuverability, everyone would be saying how amazing of an upgrade it is. It's funny watching "team play" at work.
I actually pointed out that the Surface does more from a hardware standpoint. But again that is irrelevant. And if Apple did it I'd think they're off their rockers because that type of system is not where they have ever said they've wanted to go.
Old 28th December 2017
  #1375
Lives for gear
 
Crazy4Jazz's Avatar
 

Quote:
I use very large libraries - Hans Zimmer Piano at 211 GB compressed and 452 GB uncompressed, for example - without any problems, with "only" 16 GB in my quad Mini i7. With this library, Kontakt typically loads about 430 MB into memory, and the disk meter stays around 0-1% usage at all times. I just tried loading merely 130 MB into RAM, and disk usage increased to 0-2% - hardly a worry. There are no audible performance differences.

With what buffer setting? Are you playing it with a midi keyboard. Also, what else is going on while you are doing this.

All I know is I had lots of performance problems with 16 gigs of ram in a MacBook Pro. Was an older model, late 2011, but there was an SSD in there, 16 gigs of ram and 2.7 i7 quad processor. Vienna samples crushed it.
Old 28th December 2017
  #1376
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
If Python on Windows works for you then more power to ya. I've had to do that in the past and prefer working on macOS. And i've always found bash on Windows to be painful because you're either using cygwin or something like gitbash both of which are slow and not native to the platform so there is always some goofiness to deal with. Maybe things will be better with the Ubuntu subsystem they've built into Win10.

Linux? ugh no thanks. Have tried that route too in the past.
I used gitbash on Windows some since I am just faster at thinking Linux command line than any other. But now it is all basically implemented into Powershell now, so we can just work there for most things, but its not quite the full shell. But I meant actually using Bash in Linux. I use Linux for quite a bit of stuff. Bash shell is insanely powerful. I will be spending all next week on OSX to move a program over from Windows. I just find the OS another tool. They all have their benefits and I don't see a reason to be tied to one over the other.
Old 28th December 2017
  #1377
Lives for gear
 
MusiKLover's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitardom View Post
Surface Studio

Like many MS products, you may not like the OS, but overall, it is far more flexible and useful than the Apple counterpart.
Comparing the MS Surface to the iMac Pro is akin to dueling MS Excel to an Oracle RDBMS. However, if that is your position, so be it.
Old 28th December 2017
  #1378
Lives for gear
Mac?

The company who was just busted for infecting their older hardware with malware to ruin it's performance thus forcing you to buy a new one?

You support that company, you deserve what you get
Old 28th December 2017
  #1379
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
All they admit is that they made it thermally impossible to upgrade that form factor. They don't admit anything else about what makes that form factor anything but Pro for some of us who need PCIe slots and configurable hardware. I wouldn't expect them to design hardware for my needs ever again, since it's been like a decade since they offered anything reasonable. Thank goodness for the customac movement.
Old 28th December 2017
  #1380
Lives for gear
 
latweek's Avatar
 

Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump