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Tim Cook on Mac Desktop commitment Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 9th August 2017
  #1261
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
As a moderator you really should know better than making these sweeping generalisations about Windows vs MacOS. Especially about the users of these OSes. There is an obvious response to your comments but I won't go there as it will not move this discussion forward.

Alistair
As a fellow forum member first and foremost, I wish you and a few others would learn that I'm allowed a personal opinion as well. I've repeatedly stated it's just that. I'm not an automaton just because I'm a mod.

Please learn the distinction. Modding without participating is a job no-one would do.
Old 9th August 2017
  #1262
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
As a fellow forum member first and foremost, I wish you and a few others would learn that I'm allowed a personal opinion as well.
Of course you are allowed a personal opinion but you are not only talking about the differences between Windows and MacOS which is, as you know, touchy ground, but you are making comments about the users of these OSes!

That is what I think you should know better as a moderator of the forum.

Alistair
Old 9th August 2017
  #1263
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Of course you are allowed a personal opinion but you are not only talking about the differences between Windows and MacOS which is, as you know, touchy ground, but you are making comments about the users of these OSes!

That is what I think you should know better as a moderator of the forum.

Alistair
You're misunderstanding me. I'm making comments about the designers of the OS, not the end user. Read what I wrote.
Old 9th August 2017
  #1264
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
You're misunderstanding me. I'm making comments about the designers of the OS, not the end user. Read what I wrote.
I am reading what you wrote and I disagree with your assessment that you are not talking about the users of the OSes (even if indirectly).

Alistair
Old 9th August 2017
  #1265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
You're misunderstanding me. I'm making comments about the designers of the OS, not the end user. Read what I wrote.
Since XP Cakewalk collaborated with MS on the audio part but MS seems to ignore it which is a shame. They (Cakewalk) helped develop WDM Pro Drivers which at the time of XP were much better in my opinion than ASIO and the current Core Audio. Even more a shame MS only include WDM consumer drivers and let WDM Pro wither on the vine.
Old 9th August 2017
  #1266
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
It's not really as defined as all that - I think you've misunderstood what I'm saying. I'm not intending to suggest that both systems don't work as intended, it's just the different styles and the way they go about things.

Historically I'm VERY experienced on Windows since 3.1 til XP...and we've had Windows 7, 8 and 10 in the house. As Leon knows, not without issues!

It's more the way it's put together - it just feels to me like it's still trying to do it's own version of a visual operating system but can't really let go of the techie history, yet without feeling like an evolution of pre-7 versions. It's NOT like the difference between Android/iOS, which to me feel different but still appealing in the same ways. Two ways of doing the same thing.

Again - it's not like I don't feel that it can do the job, I'm just saying it doesn't appeal to many creative types in the same way that the Mac OS does.

I'm fully content to be told "it's just you and your mates". It's just an opinion on why you're not seeing a mass uptake in creative fields (And yes I know there are lots of creative types using non-mac solutions, it's just not the norm!).
The only creative fields where Apple products dominate is graphics and audio, due to historical reasons.
Every other area, especially modern ones like 3D, projection mapping, game design, 3D presentations and CAD/architecture are all dominated by Windows based systems. There is not even a silly discussion about it. Regarding your current experience with Windows: a pc laptop - see my comment in an earlier post.
As far as negative impressions go: I see these occur on every platform with a pretty much balanced share: Windows, OSX, Linux, iOS, Android, Blackberry OS... just like they all have their positive sides where they excel.

I think another reason for people to *think* OSX is more creative is because it all looks slick and offers less options. IMO spending a week with any OS will allow anyone to know what they need and what not, and where to find it.
Old 9th August 2017
  #1267
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
I am reading what you wrote and I disagree with your assessment that you are not talking about the users of the OSes (even if indirectly).

Alistair
As you wish - you are entitled to your opinion.

Leave moderator discussion out of it however. If you can't reply to a post without a snide "as a mod you should...." comment then please don't bother quoting me.

Again, I am entitled to my opinion and you are entitled to disagree. Let's leave it there.
Old 9th August 2017
  #1268
Fair point, although I'm not talking about a laptop, I'm talking about the OS. I still remember how to uninstall and reinstall programs on Windows

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
The only creative fields where Apple products dominate is graphics and audio, due to historical reasons.
Every other area, especially modern ones like 3D, projection mapping, game design, 3D presentations and CAD/architecture are all dominated by Windows based systems. There is not even a silly discussion about it. Regarding your current experience with Windows: a pc laptop - see my comment in an earlier post.
As far as negative impressions go: I see these occur on every platform with a pretty much balanced share: Windows, OSX, Linux, iOS, Android, Blackberry OS... just like they all have their positive sides where they excel.

I think another reason for people to *think* OSX is more creative is because it all looks slick and offers less options. IMO spending a week with any OS will allow anyone to know what they need and what not, and where to find it.
Old 9th August 2017
  #1269
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lowkey's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
The only creative fields where Apple products dominate is graphics and audio, due to historical reasons.
Every other area, especially modern ones like 3D, projection mapping, game design, 3D presentations and CAD/architecture are all dominated by Windows based systems. There is not even a silly discussion about it. Regarding your current experience with Windows: a pc laptop - see my comment in an earlier post.
As far as negative impressions go: I see these occur on every platform with a pretty much balanced share: Windows, OSX, Linux, iOS, Android, Blackberry OS... just like they all have their positive sides where they excel.

I think another reason for people to *think* OSX is more creative is because it all looks slick and offers less options. IMO spending a week with any OS will allow anyone to know what they need and what not, and where to find it.
I think a reason that OSX is seen as more creative, is because Macs require a smaller IT support department [just ask IBM if you don't believe me]. Having worked for an 80 person architecture firm running Revit on PCs, they had 2 full time IT support staff and 2 full time Software support people. The office would simply grind to a halt without the 'non-architects' keeping the ship sailing. The current office Im collaborating with has 40 people on Macs running ArchiCad. There is no hardware or software IT department. The architects who use the machines are the IT support and are sailing the ship themselves.

At the smaller scale i know several sole trader architects who run Autocad and sketchup on MacBook Pros. My partner is an Interior Designer and based on Mac. The are not technically minded but can 'get by' on OSX. They don't know what bios means, don't understand why hard drives would need to be called letters, hell, they don't even know what terminal is for on OSX...or that it even exists.

I don't think that OSX is more creative than Windows. OMO Its just simpler and more 'idiot proof'. And that helps many creative types do their work.

Last edited by lowkey; 9th August 2017 at 02:45 PM.. Reason: typo
Old 9th August 2017
  #1270
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Leave moderator discussion out of it however. If you can't reply to a post without a snide "as a mod you should...." comment then please don't bother quoting me.
It wasn't a discussion about moderating the forum and it wasn't snide. All I am saying is that as a moderator, you are more than likely to know how easily such discussions can escalate and I found your comments prone to cause escalation.

Alistair
Old 9th August 2017
  #1271
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stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
It's more the way it's put together

This is actually something that's easily quantifiable.

Having a single consistent window chrome (style) vs. having several. Having consistent dialogue boxes, consistent menus and shortcuts across applications, etc. Consistent location of menu items (not possible if a menu is part of a window that can move around on the screen) for building motor memory.

Many small details, that, by themselves, may not look like they make much of a difference, but in combination, are responsible for the more fluent user experience you describe.
Old 9th August 2017
  #1272
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gussyg2007's Avatar
C'mon man .. OSX is a far better "user" experience, having used both platforms .. the click and navigate of mac is just more pleasing and requires little to no computer powers... Windows is just not as fluid or unobtrusive.
Old 9th August 2017
  #1273
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Joe Porto's Avatar
 

This thread is supposed to be about Mac Desktops. It became a Mac vs Windows thread many pages ago.

And not by fault of Mac proponents. Why Windows advocates feel the need to come to a Mac Desktop thread and defend Windows is beyond me.
Old 9th August 2017
  #1274
OMU
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OMU's Avatar
 

I pointed out earlier the exact same idea. It seems the temptation is simply too big
Old 9th August 2017
  #1275
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Porto View Post
This thread is supposed to be about Mac Desktops. It became a Mac vs Windows thread many pages ago.

And not by fault of Mac proponents. Why Windows advocates feel the need to come to a Mac Desktop thread and defend Windows is beyond me
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Well, in the current situation I'll take whatever I can find to keep the faith in the Apple line of computers. I couldn't despise Windows 10 more, despite Microsoft's new machines.
Post #6 .

That was the first mention of Windows or Microsoft in this thread.

So.... you were saying?.....
Old 9th August 2017
  #1276
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Joe Porto's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Post #6 .

That was the first mention of Windows or Microsoft in this thread.

So.... you were saying?.....
Yes...in a MAC DESKTOP thread. So what is YOUR point.

Do you go to Logic and Cubase DAW forums and defend Protools too?
Old 9th August 2017
  #1277
Tui
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Tui's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Porto View Post
Why Windows advocates feel the need to come to a Mac Desktop thread and defend Windows is beyond me.
Quite.

Perhaps a case of projection.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Nobody suggested that all PC or all Mac users behave in a certain way. However, it is a truism that creative types usually are not particularly tech-savvy. Hence, they gravitate towards Macs because they are easier to understand and use. That's all there is to it, and it has been this way for the last 20 years.
Old 10th August 2017
  #1278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Porto View Post
Yes...in a MAC DESKTOP thread. So what is YOUR point.
I guess my point was too subtle. It's very simple, if you start a thread about new Macs you're going to get a bunch of users of Macs chiming in. I make 90% of my money off of engineering on Macs. So perhaps you understand why people like me look at threads like this.

So, given that that's the case, if it's so bothersome to have a conversation comparing OSX with Windows or Macs with PCs, then don't start talking about Windows and PCs. Get it? It's a very simple way of avoiding the topic. Just don't bring it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Porto View Post
Do you go to Logic and Cubase DAW forums and defend Protools too?
I use PT on Macs 90% of the time (for making money). I own and use Nuendo on Windows for the rest (plus leisure etc). If there's a thread on either it's likely I'll read it. If someone makes a comment on Nuendo in a PT thread and I think the statement is inaccurate I'll point out what I think is inaccurate.

It's like people these days think they're entitled to whine about whatever they want and never have that be questioned, because mommy said they were special and beautiful or whatever.

I have a vested interest in both platforms and DAWs and I reserve the right to comment on what I think is right or wrong, same right you have or anyone else.

Quit whining about it. If you don't like that people comment on it then tell the people who bring it up to not bring it up in the first place. Grow up.
Old 10th August 2017
  #1279
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MusiKLover's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
This is actually something that's easily quantifiable.

Having a single consistent window chrome (style) vs. having several. Having consistent dialogue boxes, consistent menus and shortcuts across applications, etc. Consistent location of menu items (not possible if a menu is part of a window that can move around on the screen) for building motor memory.

Many small details, that, by themselves, may not look like they make much of a difference, but in combination, are responsible for the more fluent user experience you describe.
Plus two intolerable aspects:

I. BIOS. I won't bother to elaborate.

II. Command Prompt for DOS-like control, required for certain activities. That of course predates just about everything -- including Windows 3.1
Old 10th August 2017
  #1280
Quote:
Originally Posted by gussyg2007 View Post
C'mon man .. OSX is a far better "user" experience, having used both platforms .. the click and navigate of mac is just more pleasing and requires little to no computer powers... Windows is just not as fluid or unobtrusive.
You are confusing poor configurations with Windows. Windows is not the issue, bad configurations are.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Porto View Post
This thread is supposed to be about Mac Desktops. It became a Mac vs Windows thread many pages ago.

And not by fault of Mac proponents. Why Windows advocates feel the need to come to a Mac Desktop thread and defend Windows is beyond me.
I only pop up to comment on the nonsense written about Windows. I have no interest in a pc vs mac war, but I will respond to nonsense written, no matter who writes it (I correct Windows fans on their comments as well).


Quote:
Originally Posted by MusiKLover View Post
Plus two intolerable aspects:

I. BIOS. I won't bother to elaborate.
Set and forget. If you buy from a turnkey provider (like Apple is a turnkey provider, more or less), you never need to look at it.

Quote:
II. Command Prompt for DOS-like control, required for certain activities. That of course predates just about everything -- including Windows 3.1
Are you serious? For what? To start Pro Tools? Or copy files? I *never* use it.

I really wonder why some people feel the need to defend their investment by dragging in nonsense arguments against other solutions. Using Macs is fine. They work, easy to use. I edit on an iMac every week. Why is there a need to bash Windows with arguments which are either stone age, wrong, irrelevant, isolated cases or simply based on hearsay? With all the arguments mentioned here, I wonder how we manage to have sold even a single workstation in 12 years, let alone with our current client list... maybe we should offer Hackintosh...
Old 10th August 2017
  #1281
Tui
Gear Guru
 
Tui's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
I edit on an iMac every week.
So, there's still hope for you..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
maybe we should offer Hackintosh...
Now you're talking. Build a monster hack, and I'll be your first customer.
Old 10th August 2017
  #1282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
So, there's still hope for you..?
Ha! No. It is just for editing with headhones. My workstation is here in the office studio where acoustics and equipment is a lot better. I also can crank up the tube amp...
Quote:
Now you're talking. Build a monster hack, and I'll be your first customer.
We got a few requests, but we will not even offer barebones as it is too much of a support hassle. If OSX would be available as a retail license, I can imagine we would offer OSX based workstations as well. We offer Linux based systems on demand. Whatever does the job.
Old 10th August 2017
  #1283
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gussyg2007's Avatar
the dream is... a stripped down OSX that you can buy (supplied by Apple) that will install on a generic PC... now THAT is the answer
totally could be done... Hacks are living proof
Old 11th August 2017
  #1284
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lowkey's Avatar
 

^ sell a cheap OS. Loose out on the sale of a computer and increase costs of support staff. Sounds like a pretty crap business plan
Old 11th August 2017
  #1285
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MusiKLover's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
You are confusing poor configurations with Windows. Windows is not the issue, bad configurations are.


I only pop up to comment on the nonsense written about Windows. I have no interest in a pc vs mac war, but I will respond to nonsense written, no matter who writes it (I correct Windows fans on their comments as well).

I. BIOS. I won't bother to elaborate.

Set and forget. If you buy from a turnkey provider (like Apple is a turnkey provider, more or less), you never need to look at it.

II. Command Prompt for DOS-like control, required for certain activities. That of course predates just about everything -- including Windows 3.1

Are you serious? For what? To start Pro Tools? Or copy files? I *never* use it.

I really wonder why some people feel the need to defend their investment by dragging in nonsense arguments against other solutions. Using Macs is fine. They work, easy to use. I edit on an iMac every week. Why is there a need to bash Windows with arguments which are either stone age, wrong, irrelevant, isolated cases or simply based on hearsay? With all the arguments mentioned here, I wonder how we manage to have sold even a single workstation in 12 years, let alone with our current client list... maybe we should offer Hackintosh...
Quite a few use either the Command Prompt or the newer PowerShell, and in many cases it is required, along with BIOS, for system configuration. This can come into play with different HW vendors for various components. Many Macro-Level changes are executed via the Command Prompt or potentially PowerShell. Some have nothing to do with "Set & Forget" HW configuration. Some are OS related. I'm not certain as to whether PowerShell encapsulates all the Command Prompt functionality, though it sounds comprehensive: [edit: I don't believe it is all-encompassing: "To see if a DOS command has an alias, you can use the Get-Alias cmdlet. For example, Get-Alias cd shows you that cd is actually running the Set-Location cmdlet."]

https://www.howtogeek.com/163127/how...ommand-prompt/

"PowerShell isn’t just a shell you use. It’s a powerful scripting environment that can be used to create complex scripts for managing Windows systems much more easily than you could with the Command Prompt."

"However, PowerShell isn’t like the Linux terminal [edit: essentially quite similar (if not identical) to the Mac Terminal] — it’s a bit more complicated, and the average Windows user won’t see many benefits from playing with it." Just as I use the Command Prompt on a PC if required, I frequently use the Terminal on a Mac. I'm not alone on the Mac side of the equation, and it would appear I'm also not if on a PC, based on the links below. Many Mac users actually like using the Terminal. I believe some folks on the PC side use either the Command Prompt or PowerShell routinely, though perhaps not as many.

Given your business, I have to think this has come up more than once or twice, perhaps elsewhere in the organization. From various threads on this site:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/12019107-post2601.html
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/12563614-post4212.html
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/10388497-post2560.html
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/11223905-post52.html
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/12478914-post4015.html
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/12015336-post2573.html
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/11767171-post1930.html

Quite a few posts are from Pete Brown - Microsoft Windows and Devices Group. This source would appear to be rather official, and issues can arise if you update many aspects. This includes UEFI BIOS or classic BIOS, not only physical HW changes.

Last edited by MusiKLover; 11th August 2017 at 04:39 AM.. Reason: Add Article Comment
Old 11th August 2017
  #1286
Quote:
Originally Posted by gussyg2007 View Post
the dream is... a stripped down OSX that you can buy (supplied by Apple) that will install on a generic PC... now THAT is the answer
totally could be done... Hacks are living proof
It would kind of defeat the purpose of the all in one though.

People repeatedly make the comment that a Mac is just a fancy case and generic PC components, and they're right.

The point is when you KNOW what those components are, you can test them and verify any issues and problems. Then you can say with confidence that xx machine is supported.

Take away the limited hardware set, and you're in generic-ville. You're right - Hacks do prove it. They also prove that there's issues when hardware isn't 100% compatible.

I for one am very glad the software is limited to specific hardware, even if I don't always agree with the feature set of said hardware!
Old 11th August 2017
  #1287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MusiKLover View Post

Having a single consistent window chrome (style) vs. having several. Having consistent dialogue boxes, consistent menus and shortcuts across applications, etc. Consistent location of

Plus two intolerable aspects:

I. BIOS. I won't bother to elaborate.

II. Command Prompt for DOS-like control, required for certain activities. That of course predates just about everything -- including Windows 3.1
What are you talking about?!? I have tons of all the professional audio software software that everybody uses. You never need a command prompt. When was the last time you used Windos? If you want to geek out you have far more control than you've ever had on s Mac. That's the advantage of a PC but it's absolutely not necessary. If the BIOS scares you use a Mac. It's all about choices. Neither platform is overall better. Just different approaches.
Old 11th August 2017
  #1288
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MusiKLover's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dino321 View Post
What are you talking about?!? I have tons of all the professional audio software software that everybody uses. You never need a command prompt. When was the last time you used Windos? If you want to geek out you have far more control than you've ever had on s Mac. That's the advantage of a PC but it's absolutely not necessary. If the BIOS scares you use a Mac. It's all about choices. Neither platform is overall better. Just different approaches.
Point missed entirely.

I have a Windows laptop, and I travel with Ableton. I've used the MS-OSs since the early 90s -- Windows 3.1; MS-DOS before that. Do you recall when Windows '95 was supposedly going to close the gap? Start Me Up was the slogan, evidently licensed from the Stones.

I know BIOS, and the Command prompt, better than many users it would appear. They both serve to maximize efficiency if using the platform.

I don't like the condescending tone. BIOS scaring me? Say what? Do you bother to read entire posts like my previous two? You referenced an earlier comment of mine. I elaborate quite a bit more in my next post.

Are you familiar with what Linux's / Mac's Terminal is? Do you know how it differs from the Command Prompt? Do you know the Terminal is superior? Do you realize most users actually use the Terminal routinely? You said knowing & using BIOS, and the Command Prompt, is not part of every User's experience if on Windows. Far from it, according to your text. Do you understand this counterpoint? Why do you think Pete Brown of MS, as referenced in my second post, addresses BIOS and the Command Prompt here on GS? Many on the MS Platform do use both routinely. If a user does not, I suppose they can hire someone who does. Of course such services come at a cost, not to mention a loss of control.

Many of the Mac folks know their OS quite well -- the Terminal included. They do not have to deal with BIOS.
Old 11th August 2017
  #1289
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusiKLover View Post
Quite a few use either the Command Prompt or the newer PowerShell, and in many cases it is required, along with BIOS, for system configuration. This can come into play with different HW vendors for various components.
.../...
None of our clients need BIOS, Powershell or DOS prompt.
I can say I am an advanced user, and set BIOS once on a new system, done. On an off-the-shelf, you probably never need to touch it. Powershell - I never even opened it or used a PS script.
Just because these tools are used by many people, does not mean everyone needs them. Pete just gives generic info for specific tweaks. I never needed any of them.
Someone working with an audio workstation does not need them.
Someone who builds his own system will need to set a few things in the BIOS, but that is to be expected if one decides to build it themselves.
Buy a turnkey workstation and all is set.

Once again more scary talk which either is beyond what the average user needs or which is based on the incomparable self-build. The latter is on the level of a hackintosh, not a Mac. Most Mac users wouldn't want to build a hack either.

Anyway...back to Tim.
Old 11th August 2017
  #1290
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Joe Porto's Avatar
 

Speaking of needing to mess with command line instruction, since Apple neutered Disk Utility in Sierra, you can no longer view or edit hidden directories. So if you've had a system that has gone through several OS updates or has had a windows partition created, and you want to remove unneeded recovery or hidden windows partitions, you need to do it via command line in Terminal.
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