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Tim Cook on Mac Desktop commitment Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 15th July 2017
  #1201
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lowkey's Avatar
 

I respectfully suggest you start a new thread along the lines of "accountant advice for PC users" and post there, rather than derailing a thread on Apple Desktops with such inane economic advice.

"It's not the percentage loss that's important..."

Dude, it's not www.boringacountancyslutz.com


Quote:
Originally Posted by NamesAreAPain View Post

You clearly do not understand basic economics.

It is not the percentage loss that is important, it is the real money lose that is.
e.g A loss of say 50% on $1000 is less ($500) than a 25% loss on $3000 ($750)!
So his statement is valid.

The people who are desperate are the ones claiming that Macs are better because of photo syncing, whine about the registry (which is rich because macOS is a flaming turd under the "hood" in many regards) and brand PC users as pirates!
Old 15th July 2017
  #1202
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lowkey's Avatar
 

To get things back on topic, here's some conjecture on the new chips to be used in the upcoming iMac Pro.

"MacRumors said: ↑
Apple said it would use Intel's Xeon processors, with 8, 10, and 18 core chips available as optional configurations with up to 42MB cache and maximum Turbo Boost up to 4.5GHz.
I asked somewhere to somebody that actually knows one or two things about Intel upcoming products:

Intel Splitted its Xeon among Workstations and Servers from latest generation, all new gold-silver-bronze Xeon server wont target Workstations, meanwhile the new Workstation-Class Xeon will be SINGLE SOCKET.

The iMac will use the (yet to be announced) Skylake-X Xeon along X299 Chipset (yes X299 will support ECC, or there is an ECC varian of X299 in the works), so the new Xeons will be mere ECC upgraded HEDT Core i9.

So the iMac pro will use a Xeon variant of intel Core-X i7/i9's lineup:as i7-7820X (8c, max 4.5ghz 19Mb Cache (8x1Mb L2+11Mb L3), i9-7900x (10c 4.5ghz 23.75Mb Cache) and i9-7980XE with 18 Cores 42.75 MB Cache (18x1Mb L2, + 23.75MB L3)... if you cant see it you need glasses and some english translator"

The alternative view is the iMacs may use the new Purley Xeons. https://forums.macrumors.com/threads...ac-pro.2056096




(Note to accountants-the iMac pro will NOT be the cheapest computer available to run fruityloops)
Old 15th July 2017
  #1203
OMU
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Interesting, thanks for the on topic post

I suppose there's some hope that if the new Xeons are derived from the i7/9 cpus, Acustica plugins will behave better than on the current line of Mac Pros. I get better results on those with the hyper threading off.
Old 15th July 2017
  #1204
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I struggle to understand how you can get an 18 core 120W to 140W TDP chip + a Vega GPU into an All In One with practically zero airflow unless you lose the stand, quadruple the display area and the back of the display looks like this:

Old 15th July 2017
  #1205
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lowkey's Avatar
 

From the IMac Pro website
" we completely redesigned the thermal architecture of iMac Pro with innovative dual-blowers, a massive heat sink and extra venting. The result? Almost 75 per cent more airflow and an 80 per cent increase in system thermal capacity. Which lets iMac Pro handle 500 watts — 67 per cent more power than the previous iMac — and stay cool"

Old 15th July 2017
  #1206
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I imagine the practically the entire rear surface of the monitor works as a heatspreader. It is a big monitor after all.
Old 15th July 2017
  #1207
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robobaby View Post
I struggle to understand how you can get an 18 core 120W to 140W TDP chip + a Vega GPU into an All In One with practically zero airflow unless you lose the stand, quadruple the display area and the back of the display looks like this:

What lowkey says above plus, the original chassis was designed to work with HDDs (lots more heat a bulk than SSDs).

On top of that it's not unreasonable to think that the Xeon cpus that are planned for this machine "might" be based on Cannonlake (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannonlake) which will will be based on a 10nm process. This would also lower the thermal envelope a good bit more.

Due in the second half of 2017.

Also thermal/power/performance isn't linear, so fab process/clock speed/core count can be combined in differently to achieve interesting results.

From here: https://www.google.ie/amp/amp.hothar...nced-10nm-node

Intel claims that further refinements at 10nm mean its upcoming Cannonlake processors will provide up to a 25 percent uplift in performance, while consuming 45 percent less power than 14nm counterparts (i.e. Skylake and Kaby Lake).
Old 15th July 2017
  #1208
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Aziak's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
From the IMac Pro website
" we completely redesigned the thermal architecture of iMac Pro with innovative dual-blowers, a massive heat sink and extra venting. The result? Almost 75 per cent more airflow and an 80 per cent increase in system thermal capacity. Which lets iMac Pro handle 500 watts — 67 per cent more power than the previous iMac — and stay cool"

Some people haven't convinced themselves about how the iMacPro can handle the thermal capacity. It is still an unreleased product and the above info are all what is known so far. Seeing is believing i guess, cannot blame someone at that point.

But, i have experience with the previous model iMac 5k, i7 QuadCore, 32Gb ram, that one of my clients uses at the moment. The machine gets hot, really hot under heavy load and he has an air-conditioned control room with steady temperature at 25c. (for reference, outside temperature is between 31c-35c). Many iMac users have this in mind, when they read about the iMacPro. With the option to have a 18 core CPU a question arises: "If my i7 QuadCore gets that hot, how the iMacPro will handle all that produced heat?" It is in Apple's hands to answer that in the near future.

My MacPro "trashcan" on the other side, is relatively "cold" (and totally silent) running 4k video footage in Final Cut, with tons of stuff on it. My room temperature is 27c. That machine has just one fan in it and performs excellent, from my personal experience, so far. I never felt it really hot, i would say slightly hot, you can touch it without feel any burn. On the iMac though, you cannot stand to touch it more than 5 seconds, as i remember.

My point is that Apple has the way to deal with that issues, not successfully all the times. Remember the Mac G5 tower? That thing was a hell of a noisy and hot machine under load, back in the days..... but they learn and innovate. The next model Intel Mac Pros "Cheese grater" were one of the most silent machines they ever build, i had one and never bothered me.

I think iMacPro will be a great machine...time will tell.

Cheers!

Last edited by Aziak; 15th July 2017 at 03:24 PM.. Reason: typos
Old 15th July 2017
  #1209
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stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZangTumblyTumble View Post
I imagine the practically the entire rear surface of the monitor works as a heatspreader. It is a big monitor after all.
That's actually one design reason why the back of iMacs and all of the casings of Mac laptops are made of metal - heat distribution.
Old 15th July 2017
  #1210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
(Note to accountants-the iMac pro will NOT be the cheapest computer available to run fruityloops)
It won't be the best performing computer either. Or the quietest under load.

We'll see what the 18 core is clocked at, what the GPU is clocked at and how it compares to commercially available Vega cards, as well as what the acoustic and thermal performance is when it is a real product.
Old 15th July 2017
  #1211
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Aziak's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
It won't be the best performing computer either. Or the quietest under load.

...he said... and then gently covered his magic sphere with a cloth made of silk.

Last edited by Aziak; 15th July 2017 at 04:46 PM..
Old 15th July 2017
  #1212
Gear Addict
 

Am I derailing this thread if I bring up the Mac Mini? My lowly 2011 Mac mini is hanging on by a thread, but still functional. I HOPE that Apple offers some mid-level option without an integrated display. I'm wed to my ultra-wide display (pictured below) because it facilitates a center speaker in some semblance of a reasonable position for a small room like mine.
Attached Thumbnails
Tim Cook on Mac Desktop commitment-tim-reisig-audio.jpg  
Old 15th July 2017
  #1213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aziak View Post
...he said... and then covered his magic sphere with a cloth made of silk.
There's no need for a crystal ball, Xeons aren't spec'd to be the fastest, and these are single socket computers anyway. So they won't be the fastest the second they are released, since you can just double it. You also get computer cases that are acoustically shielded with multiple slower fans inside them, with giant heatsinks and no need for fast airflow. That you then can put several feet away from you out of ear-line, or indeed in a different room.

If you are saying that the noise from the iMac Pro won't be measureable against background noise in a quasi-silent room then I doff my hat to your confidence in Apple's abilities to violate the laws of physics!
Old 15th July 2017
  #1214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robobaby View Post
I struggle to understand how you can get an 18 core 120W to 140W TDP chip + a Vega GPU into an All In One with practically zero airflow unless you lose the stand, quadruple the display area and the back of the display looks like this:
Me too. I actually even struggle to believe Intel can even get an 18 core out at 140W TDP without the clock speed being pretty low.
Old 15th July 2017
  #1215
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Aziak's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
There's no need for a crystal ball, Xeons aren't spec'd to be the fastest, and these are single socket computers anyway. So they won't be the fastest the second they are released, since you can just double it. You also get computer cases that are acoustically shielded with multiple slower fans inside them, with giant heatsinks and no need for fast airflow. That you then can put several feet away from you out of ear-line, or indeed in a different room.

If you are saying that the noise from the iMac Pro won't be measureable against background noise in a quasi-silent room then I doff my hat to your confidence in Apple's abilities to violate the laws of physics!
Hey, it was just a touch of humour and only that. PC guys don't have this sense anymore?

Hope we all agree that it's a bit early to draw conclusions about performance and if is silent or noisy, cool or a heater, right?
But probably you enjoy doing so, i will not interfere and spoil your joy my dear co-forum poster! Have fun, peace!


Cheers!
Old 15th July 2017
  #1216
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What exactly is Pro about fans on the desk in an audio control room?
Old 15th July 2017
  #1217
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Aziak's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
What exactly is Pro about fans on the desk in an audio control room?
My Mac Pro "trashcan" it is pro. Makes less noise than a hedgehog's fart.
The standard iMacs not so, i have that experience and it's noisy for sure!
As for the newly announced iMac Pro, we'll find out around Xmas time, right?
Or in the mid time we can uncover the magic sphere and find out sooner!




Cheers!
Old 15th July 2017
  #1218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aziak View Post
Hey, it was just a touch of humour and only that. PC guys don't have this sense anymore?

Hope we all agree that it's a bit early to draw conclusions about performance and if is silent or noisy, cool or a heater, right?
It won't be silent with two fans responsible for removing that much heat whilst the entire unit is being heated up by the screen - and it will be noisier than a computer in another room, to avoid arguments about acoustic treatment etc. It also won't be the most powerful, since dual or quad sockets exist - leaving aside arguments about Intel mainstream processors, AMD processors or whatever.

I did like your turn of phrase there though, it's shame you didn't like my physics joke!

/exits, stage left
Old 15th July 2017
  #1219
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Aziak's Avatar
[QUOTE=captain caveman;12738861]I did like your turn of phrase there though, it's shame you didn't like my physics joke!

You mean that?

Quote:
Quote:
If you are saying that the noise from the iMac Pro won't be measureable against background noise in a quasi-silent room then I doff my hat to your confidence in Apple's abilities to violate the laws of physics!

I said nothing of that actually, but who cares....oh and the joke...

....so hilarious, how i missed that?



Cheers!
Old 15th July 2017
  #1220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robobaby View Post
I struggle to understand how you can get an 18 core 120W to 140W TDP chip + a Vega GPU into an All In One with practically zero airflow
Here is an article on the problem with cooing even the 10-core running stock speeds.... excerpt:

Quote:
The main takeaway is that cooling Intel's Core i9-7900X is a tough task even at stock clock speeds, even with a high-end Alphacool Eiszeit 2000 refrigerating cooling system.

--------

The sheer power dissipation of the i9-7900X is another obstacle to proper cooling. The chip dissipates 160W under a Cinebench load using Tom's Hardware's testing configuration, and running the Prime95 Small FFTs torture test pushes those figures to 230W. The Cinebench load pushed VRM temperatures to 73° C, while Prime95 Small FFTs caused the VRMs to reach about 90° C. For reference, the site reports that its MSI motherboard will begin throttling the system when the thermistor near the VRMs hits 105° C. In either case, the site recommends at least some kind of beefy all-in-one liquid cooler to properly cool the chip. Even with Cinebench, Tom's observed thermal throttling from the i9-7900X with an air cooler on top.
Curious to see how an 18-core pans out. I'm guessing either a custom SKU for Apple specifically, with soldered lids, and/or far lower speeds than the ten core and lower CPUs.
Old 15th July 2017
  #1221
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zephonic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timsplace View Post
Am I derailing this thread if I bring up the Mac Mini? My lowly 2011 Mac mini is hanging on by a thread, but still functional. I HOPE that Apple offers some mid-level option without an integrated display. I'm wed to my ultra-wide display (pictured below) because it facilitates a center speaker in some semblance of a reasonable position for a small room like mine.
Not derailing, the MacMini is a desktop, and that is what the thread was about, originally. To answer your question, Phil Schiller said this during the roundtable discussion they had last April:

Quote:
John Paczkowski (BuzzFeed): What about the Mac Mini? It hasn’t come up once yet. Is there a reason?

Phil Schiller: On that I’ll say the Mac Mini is an important product in our lineup and we weren’t bringing it up because it’s more of a mix of consumer with some pro use. So we’re focusing today specifically on the things that are important to pros. While there are some pro usage, there’s also a lot of consumer uses so we aren’t covering it today. The Mac Mini remains a product in our lineup, but nothing more to say about it today.
https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/06/tr...ples-pro-macs/
Old 16th July 2017
  #1222
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lowkey's Avatar
 

I don't recall anyone claiming it would be silent?

But I'd be surprised if an 18 core Xeon won't be fast enough for most tasks in fact the base 8 core model is going to handle more than what the vast majority of audio users could need. It's likely 4K/8k content makers who will be interested in to top models.

the rumours are suggesting the next Mac Pro will be dual socket server grade xeons, so may have up to 36 cores or more. That's obviously a level of power very few would ever need...

Id be guessing the base model Mac Pro will be around the same spec as the iMac pro.


Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
It won't be silent with two fans responsible for removing that much heat whilst the entire unit is being heated up by the screen - and it will be noisier than a computer in another room, to avoid arguments about acoustic treatment etc. It also won't be the most powerful, since dual or quad sockets exist - leaving aside arguments about Intel mainstream processors, AMD processors or whatever.

I did like your turn of phrase there though, it's shame you didn't like my physics joke!

/exits, stage left
Old 16th July 2017
  #1223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
I don't recall anyone claiming it would be silent?
You must recall me saying that it wouldn't be the quietest, after you made the silly comment about FL Studio? Since the quietest PC (or Mac Pro) can be silent in situ, the actively cooled all-in-one is inherently noisier.
Quote:
But I'd be surprised if an 18 core Xeon won't be fast enough for most tasks in fact the base 8 core model is going to handle more than what the vast majority of audio users could need. It's likely 4K/8k content makers who will be interested in to top models.
I wouldn't say so, for live monitoring of CPU heavy FX and synths a low clocked 18 core would be far from ideal and not powerful enough, since some/most DAWs are tied to a single thread/core for this purpose. Higher clocked models would be better for a significant proportion of users. Preferably in a case where clocking and cooling is not compromised by the need to be thin and pretty.
Quote:
the rumours are suggesting the next Mac Pro will be dual socket server grade xeons, so may have up to 36 cores or more. That's obviously a level of power very few would ever need...

Id be guessing the base model Mac Pro will be around the same spec as the iMac pro.
Yes, it will be interesting to see what Apple reimagine the Mac Pro as. Lot's of exciting developments happening between now and then too.
Old 17th July 2017
  #1224
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
To get things back on topic, here's some conjecture on the new chips to be used in the upcoming iMac Pro.

"MacRumors said: ↑
Apple said it would use Intel's Xeon processors, with 8, 10, and 18 core chips available as optional configurations with up to 42MB cache and maximum Turbo Boost up to 4.5GHz.
I asked somewhere to somebody that actually knows one or two things about Intel upcoming products:

Intel Splitted its Xeon among Workstations and Servers from latest generation, all new gold-silver-bronze Xeon server wont target Workstations, meanwhile the new Workstation-Class Xeon will be SINGLE SOCKET.

The iMac will use the (yet to be announced) Skylake-X Xeon along X299 Chipset (yes X299 will support ECC, or there is an ECC varian of X299 in the works), so the new Xeons will be mere ECC upgraded HEDT Core i9.

So the iMac pro will use a Xeon variant of intel Core-X i7/i9's lineup:as i7-7820X (8c, max 4.5ghz 19Mb Cache (8x1Mb L2+11Mb L3), i9-7900x (10c 4.5ghz 23.75Mb Cache) and i9-7980XE with 18 Cores 42.75 MB Cache (18x1Mb L2, + 23.75MB L3)... if you cant see it you need glasses and some english translator"

The alternative view is the iMacs may use the new Purley Xeons. https://forums.macrumors.com/threads...ac-pro.2056096




(Note to accountants-the iMac pro will NOT be the cheapest computer available to run fruityloops)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
I don't recall anyone claiming it would be silent?

But I'd be surprised if an 18 core Xeon won't be fast enough for most tasks in fact the base 8 core model is going to handle more than what the vast majority of audio users could need. It's likely 4K/8k content makers who will be interested in to top models.

the rumours are suggesting the next Mac Pro will be dual socket server grade xeons, so may have up to 36 cores or more. That's obviously a level of power very few would ever need...

Id be guessing the base model Mac Pro will be around the same spec as the iMac pro.
The iMac Pro will NOT use Purley chips and it is very unlikely a new MacPro will so as well.
The SKU's are not optimally scaled for affordable workstations (I count a mac pro as an affordable workstation), rather for servers and ultra end workstations aimed at industry level as opposed to media industry.

I think it will be the single socket E5 successors at 2066 base.
Single socket Xeons have always been made on the same wafer as i7 counterparts with similar specs, just cherry picked (heat/performance per volt) and programmed differently at a slightly different price (as opposed to the major price difference which used to be years ago, or as opposed to dual/quad socket SKU's which indeed cost a lot more).

Last edited by DAW PLUS; 17th July 2017 at 01:57 PM.. Reason: Correction based on new info...
Old 25th July 2017
  #1225
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Joe Porto's Avatar
 

One thing regarding Mac's and fan noise...at least for laptops, since I started using a MBP for the studio, I was struggling with the fan kicking in for heavy projects, but found a simple solution that has drastically reduced the fan going into high gear...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Old 5th August 2017
  #1226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
instead of buying 5K screens etc over and over again.
You mean selling the old hardware at great value before buying a new mac for not a lot more. You're not extremely good understanding the realities of Mac Music computing.

I'm pretty sure us Mac users understand all your points. That still doesn't make Windows PCs extremely attractive. In some cases, this is the best solution. For example if you want to get into VR production, Windows is the best choice. For music, to me, Macs are a no-brainer. This could change if Apple don't get their act together real soon. I'm very, very disappointed with Apple. 2018 is three years too late.
Old 5th August 2017
  #1227
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I'm a but wary about seeing the iMac Pro as a music studio machine. It might work for some, but a Mac Pro seems more to be something for the studio. There's no updated Mac Pro here now, which really makes me feel… frustrated.
Old 5th August 2017
  #1228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
You mean selling the old hardware at great value before buying a new mac for not a lot more. You're not extremely good understanding the realities of Mac Music computing.
The top spec'd iMac (the i7, 64GB, 2TB) costs £5,237 with AppleCare. How much is lost on that in 4 years... £3,500 or more? You can't seriously look at the resale value without also looking at the loss.

And the top spec iMac Pros are going to be much more expensive than that. Say £7,500 to be conservative. I can't see many people being willing to pay £4,000+ for a 4 year old computer, out of any warranty. So I'd imagine the loss will be substantially more with these new models.
Old 5th August 2017
  #1229
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nativeaudio's Avatar
 

"You mean selling the old hardware at great value before buying a new mac for not a lot more. You're not extremely good understanding the realities of Mac Music computing. "
If one has to buy a new 4k or 5k screen every time one buys a new iMac, one is losing money, even if the resale price possibly is better than with other PCs. But - if they'll releasing modular Mac Pros next year, why would one want to keep buying iMacs anyway?
Old 5th August 2017
  #1230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
The top spec'd iMac (the i7, 64GB, 2TB) costs £5,237 with AppleCare. How much is lost on that in 4 years... £3,500 or more? You can't seriously look at the resale value without also looking at the loss.
This is some odd thinking. Loss? If you're not making money with your machine what are you doing shopping for "Pro" Machine? You sound like a home owner. Better get that new wonderful PC Laptop…

What 4 years? I suggest 2 or 3 years until the next model (touch on wood). I say you're somewhat out of touch with the second hand Mac market. For some reason people keep paying also for older Macs up onto 5 years or something like that (Coffee money after that). Because of kinda few people selling prices are higher than they perhaps should be. Of course price evolution differ with model and other factors, but this is the world I know.

I know quite a few producers that use or want a 4k screen, so I wouldn't' be so fast to rule 4k and up out as attractive for music producers.

I haven't decided what I want for desktop display. The new iMacs may be fine for music production, but I'm wary of them. I guess I have to try one.

Last edited by Mikael B; 6th August 2017 at 12:20 AM.. Reason: correction
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