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Tim Cook on Mac Desktop commitment Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 13th July 2017
  #1171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Can you illustrate some examples?
What I mentioned earlier, and what Joe said, and in addition what will come in the future which Apple won't achieve anytime soon.

Really, if we're discussing the integration "quality" of what MS and Apple offers then we need to compare like to like. Use MS products for the MS ecosystem, use Apple products for its ecosystem. I would argue that MS has the upper hand there, broadly speaking, even though to a lot of consumers it might seem the opposite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Slightly disingenuous there - I'd wager UAD sell WAY more Thunderbolt accelerators than PCIe cards.

In the pro world, you need PCIe for HDX and that's about it. If we didn't need that, Sonnet wouldn't exist as a company.
You're forgetting about other items though, from video cards to raid controllers.

Now, obviously you're "right" in the sense that no, we don't necessarily need HDX even, but then again, you also don't need Pro Tools. So it sort of comes back to whatever actual situation a person is in. So I'll reiterate that HDX versus the Mac Pro trashcan is the perfect example of why Apple products over time become quite expensive. Because as people upgrade their HDX system they'll need a new OS which requires a new computer which requires a chassis. So the cost doesn't stop at the trashcan.
Old 13th July 2017
  #1172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
... she can't stand the way Windows deals with importing and organising photos! Admittedly that's to an iPhone....
Just double checking because you said "importing" - is she using OneDrive for iOS? If so, the photos should just automagically pop up in the Windows 10 Photos app where you can view them, edit them, organise them into galleries etc. That's what happens with Android OneDrive + Win 10 anyway.
Old 13th July 2017
  #1173
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zephonic's Avatar
OMG, it's 2009 all over again...
Old 13th July 2017
  #1174
Lives for gear
 

Bringing up laptops for gig use in a "Desktop" thread is a tangent as well as using a headphone out minijack jack for "Pro" audio usage (it may work "fine" as you say but that $2 analog circuit around it and connector type is far from robust or "Pro").

No need for a Mac vs. PC flame war but looking at what each will do as a DAW workstation box and their economics is fair game for this thread. It basically boils down to these choices: DIY PC or Hackintosh DAW box (you do all the work) / Buy a PC and make into a DAW box (you do some work - tweeking for DAW usage - install apps and drivers) / Buy an Apple and make into a DAW box (even less work - install apps and drivers) / Buy a DAW box from one of the pro builders (again even less work - install apps and drivers) / Buy a fully installed DAW box from one of the pro builders (no work).
Old 13th July 2017
  #1175
Gear Nut
 

Ok people get it. PC can be cheaper than mac.

Now let people use what they want to use (and spend their money on what they want to spend it on) in peace.
Old 13th July 2017
  #1176
Lives for gear
 

Of course - people are free to spend their money on whatever they like. People are also free to correct information they see that is incorrect and which may lead to some current or future lurkers spending money or more money that is necessary for reasons that simply aren't true. That goes for PC vs Mac, Intel/Nvidia vs AMD etc.

That's the great thing about a cross platform forum like this, it isn't an echo chamber of unchallenged misinformation.
Old 14th July 2017
  #1177
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lowkey's Avatar
 

In the latest news:-
-You can buy a PC for less than an iMac if you don't buy an equal monitor.
-You can build a PC yourself for less than the price of a PC built by a name brand, especially if you don't include the cost of your own labour.
-You can upgrade your existing computer yourself for even less than the price of a new one!
-the sky appears to be blue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
Of course - people are free to spend their money on whatever they like. People are also free to correct information they see that is incorrect and which may lead to some current or future lurkers spending money or more money that is necessary for reasons that simply aren't true. That goes for PC vs Mac, Intel/Nvidia vs AMD etc.

That's the great thing about a cross platform forum like this, it isn't an echo chamber of unchallenged misinformation.
Old 14th July 2017
  #1178
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
I thought the general discussion was about buying a computer though, not buying our first computers. I'd be willing to wager that there are more UAD-1 and UAD-2 cards still in use than new Thunderbolt devices. So I'm highlighting the potential costs involved for upgraders - who are the majority, most computer sales are not to first time purchasers.
I genuinely don't think, at this point, that there would be. I don't think I even know anyone who's got a UAD1 still, and very few who have PCIe versions. Apollos and accelerators, all TB are very very common. It's far. Ore important in the current market to have TB than PCIe. As far as music goes anyway.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
What I mentioned earlier, and what Joe said, and in addition what will come in the future which Apple won't achieve anytime soon.

Really, if we're discussing the integration "quality" of what MS and Apple offers then we need to compare like to like. Use MS products for the MS ecosystem, use Apple products for its ecosystem. I would argue that MS has the upper hand there, broadly speaking, even though to a lot of consumers it might seem the opposite.



You're forgetting about other items though, from video cards to raid controllers.

Now, obviously you're "right" in the sense that no, we don't necessarily need HDX even, but then again, you also don't need Pro Tools. So it sort of comes back to whatever actual situation a person is in. So I'll reiterate that HDX versus the Mac Pro trashcan is the perfect example of why Apple products over time become quite expensive. Because as people upgrade their HDX system they'll need a new OS which requires a new computer which requires a chassis. So the cost doesn't stop at the trashcan.
It's a different argument, but if we look at the pro market the MP is aimed at, HDX is now the standard, which means the chassis unfortunately IS necessary. HDX in TB format would be awesome though.

A matching 3-drive bay that sat on top of the Mac Pro, and hdx in a tb box and you'd be in a better position, form factor wise, than previously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
Just double checking because you said "importing" - is she using OneDrive for iOS? If so, the photos should just automagically pop up in the Windows 10 Photos app where you can view them, edit them, organise them into galleries etc. That's what happens with Android OneDrive + Win 10 anyway.
Don't even get me started on my wife's computer issues...we'll see if she takes to the iMac, we've agreed that she won't whinge it doesn't work like her mind if I set it up so it works in a way I can explain for her!
Old 14th July 2017
  #1179
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Well, compared to you guys I'm a real computer dummy. I therefore defer to your wisdom with the following question:

What do you think the chances are that we'll have 4 SATA drive bays as we did with the last-gen cheese graters, and a similar number of PCI slots?

It's just that I'm installing a PCI card that hosts 2 SSD drives soon (for samples and audio work), and have always relied on having 4 WD Caviar Blacks in the internal bays for backup. My long-in-the-tooth WD drives need replacing now as well as I'm out of space, so I'm looking at swapping them out one-by-one between now and year's end.

Trying to get an idea as to whether or not the new SSD PCI card and SATA backup drives will be transferrable to the new desktops due next year. If it looks like they won't be, well, not sure what I'll do as I need the SSDs, but I s'pose I could buy el-cheapo SATA drives instead of my usual Caviar Blacks just to get by in the interim, although I'd rather not as I've not had one fail on me ever and have used 'em for 12 years or so (1st set of 4 for half that time, the second for the other half 'til now).

Than you in advance, geniuses.
Old 14th July 2017
  #1180
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lowkey's Avatar
 

The chance of them being internal to the computer, like the cheese grater would be very very close to zero.

The new Mac Pro, is currently being designed and has been described as 'modular' whatever that may mean.

It's more likely that a box with slots would be available separately and connected by TB3.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Man View Post
Well, compared to you guys I'm a real computer dummy. I therefore defer to your wisdom with the following question:

What do you think the chances are that we'll have 4 SATA drive bays as we did with the last-gen cheese graters, and a similar number of PCI slots?

It's just that I'm installing a PCI card that hosts 2 SSD drives soon (for samples and audio work), and have always relied on having 4 WD Caviar Blacks in the internal bays for backup. My long-in-the-tooth WD drives need replacing now as well as I'm out of space, so I'm looking at swapping them out one-by-one between now and year's end.

Trying to get an idea as to whether or not the new SSD PCI card and SATA backup drives will be transferrable to the new desktops due next year. If it looks like they won't be, well, not sure what I'll do as I need the SSDs, but I s'pose I could buy el-cheapo SATA drives instead of my usual Caviar Blacks just to get by in the interim, although I'd rather not as I've not had one fail on me ever and have used 'em for 12 years or so (1st set of 4 for half that time, the second for the other half 'til now).

Than you in advance, geniuses.
Old 14th July 2017
  #1181
Lives for gear
 
Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Thank you, lowkey.

Damn.
Old 14th July 2017
  #1182
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I genuinely don't think, at this point, that there would be. I don't think I even know anyone who's got a UAD1 still, and very few who have PCIe versions. Apollos and accelerators, all TB are very very common. It's far. Ore important in the current market to have TB than PCIe. As far as music goes anyway.
Yeah, I think we are both correct - there are lots of people still using UAD-2 and even UAD-1, but perhaps not whilst also using Macs because of aforementioned hassle/incompatibility/expense over the last few years. Since the used prices of UAD-2 appear to be okay, it's unlikely that people are throwing them away. I think it's reasonable to therefore assume that they are mostly still in use somewhere. Maybe not by frequenters of top studios, but certainly by people who would encounter additional inconvenience when buying a new Mac.

@lowkey: thanks again, indeed we've established the fact that you are tied to Apple choices of sub-optimum hardware and also that you can get PCs that perform similarly or much, much better than Macs, depending on purpose, from between 1/5 and 1/2 of the price, depending on whether you want a turnkey solution from a pro audio company or not. Thanks for doubling down on this for the benefit of future readers.
Old 14th July 2017
  #1183
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stratology's Avatar
 

Out of curiosity, I played around with a new Windows laptop yesterday.

My observations:

First thing I noticed is that it didn't sit firmly on the table, it started moving around from just interacting with it. It had a detachable screen, all the weight was in the screen, the balance point was way too high. Designed by idiot engineers who think 'design' is all about looks...

The trackpad worked surprisingly well. Best I've ever seen on a PC, definitely usable. Not in the same ballpark as current MacBooks, but comparable to Macs from 10 years ago. Very good.

Touch on the screen was as responsive as my iPad 3. Definitely usable. Good first impression.

Menus triggered by touch had small fonts, and huge spaces between menu items. Weird.

It was easy enough to trigger context (right click) menus via touch, but navigating them is awkward, and they pop up in random locations on the screen, not under the fingers that touch the screen.

I opened a browser window and tried to resize it. Couldn't do it, I tried with one finger on the window border, 2 fingers, touch and hold, no response. Works via trackpad, not via touch.


To summarise, it took less than a minute for the user experience to completely fall apart. Both on the hardware and software side.




After that, I played around with a new iPad Pro: it cost €300 less than the PC, responded to touch significantly faster, the screen quality was orders of magnitude better, the 200Hz reframe rate is something that needs to be tried IRL to be appreciated, especially in comparison with other devices (both PCs an older iPads).



For me, that kind of explains why the PC guys keep on bringing up home built W7 PCs. I can't imagine anyone stupid enough to purchase a modern PC laptop like the one I tried. Better stick with an old, keyboard/mouse only OS, because it's consistent. Better look at select hardware specs (number of cores etc) that, in theory, show good performance, because the 'real world' user experience is so bad.
Old 14th July 2017
  #1184
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
Out of curiosity, I played around with a new Windows laptop yesterday.

My observations:

First thing I noticed is that it didn't sit firmly on the table, it started moving around from just interacting with it. It had a detachable screen, all the weight was in the screen, the balance point was way too high. Designed by idiot engineers who think 'design' is all about looks...

The trackpad worked surprisingly well. Best I've ever seen on a PC, definitely usable. Not in the same ballpark as current MacBooks, but comparable to Macs from 10 years ago. Very good.

Touch on the screen was as responsive as my iPad 3. Definitely usable. Good first impression.

Menus triggered by touch had small fonts, and huge spaces between menu items. Weird.

It was easy enough to trigger context (right click) menus via touch, but navigating them is awkward, and they pop up in random locations on the screen, not under the fingers that touch the screen.

I opened a browser window and tried to resize it. Couldn't do it, I tried with one finger on the window border, 2 fingers, touch and hold, no response. Works via trackpad, not via touch.


To summarise, it took less than a minute for the user experience to completely fall apart. Both on the hardware and software side.




After that, I played around with a new iPad Pro: it cost €300 less than the PC, responded to touch significantly faster, the screen quality was orders of magnitude better, the 200Hz reframe rate is something that needs to be tried IRL to be appreciated, especially in comparison with other devices (both PCs an older iPads).



For me, that kind of explains why the PC guys keep on bringing up home built W7 PCs. I can't imagine anyone stupid enough to purchase a modern PC laptop like the one I tried. Better stick with an old, keyboard/mouse only OS, because it's consistent. Better look at select hardware specs (number of cores etc) that, in theory, show good performance, because the 'real world' user experience is so bad.
Well that settles it......
Old 14th July 2017
  #1185
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ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
...First thing I noticed is that it didn't sit firmly on the table, it started moving around from just interacting with it....
I hope Microsoft will fix that in their next release...

Last edited by ponzi; 14th July 2017 at 03:10 PM..
Old 14th July 2017
  #1186
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
I opened a browser window and tried to resize it. Couldn't do it, I tried with one finger on the window border, 2 fingers, touch and hold, no response. Works via trackpad, not via touch.
This is incorrect, there is a forgiving target area around windows for touch resizing. But you engage tablet mode (swipe in from right to show notification area to access) if you want to use it like an Android/iOS/Kindle tablet. Then you have the features that Samsung/iOS copied, like split screen mode, for the "tabletty" version of windowing where such forgiving target areas aren't available in the first place.

And you were testing a 2-in-1... hence the weight in the screen, because the computer is in the screen.

edit: the right click thing is interesting too, because they shouldn't be appearing in different places. Maybe some keen fan of a rival brand had messed with the calibration settings?

Last edited by captain caveman; 14th July 2017 at 02:38 PM..
Old 14th July 2017
  #1187
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
Out of curiosity, I played around with a new Windows laptop yesterday.

My observations:

First thing I noticed is that it didn't sit firmly on the table, it started moving around from just interacting with it. It had a detachable screen, all the weight was in the screen, the balance point was way too high. Designed by idiot engineers who think 'design' is all about looks...

The trackpad worked surprisingly well. Best I've ever seen on a PC, definitely usable. Not in the same ballpark as current MacBooks, but comparable to Macs from 10 years ago. Very good.

Touch on the screen was as responsive as my iPad 3. Definitely usable. Good first impression.

Menus triggered by touch had small fonts, and huge spaces between menu items. Weird.

It was easy enough to trigger context (right click) menus via touch, but navigating them is awkward, and they pop up in random locations on the screen, not under the fingers that touch the screen.

I opened a browser window and tried to resize it. Couldn't do it, I tried with one finger on the window border, 2 fingers, touch and hold, no response. Works via trackpad, not via touch.


To summarise, it took less than a minute for the user experience to completely fall apart. Both on the hardware and software side.




After that, I played around with a new iPad Pro: it cost €300 less than the PC, responded to touch significantly faster, the screen quality was orders of magnitude better, the 200Hz reframe rate is something that needs to be tried IRL to be appreciated, especially in comparison with other devices (both PCs an older iPads).



For me, that kind of explains why the PC guys keep on bringing up home built W7 PCs. I can't imagine anyone stupid enough to purchase a modern PC laptop like the one I tried. Better stick with an old, keyboard/mouse only OS, because it's consistent. Better look at select hardware specs (number of cores etc) that, in theory, show good performance, because the 'real world' user experience is so bad.
So let me get this straight: You complain about comparisons between stationary iMacs and assembled PCs, and then you go compare a 2-in-1 laptop with an iPad and try to apply the results to the discussion?
Old 14th July 2017
  #1188
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ponzi's Avatar
Getting to be a mac versus pc thread--booooring.
Old 14th July 2017
  #1189
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lowkey's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
@lowkey: thanks again, indeed we've established the fact that you are tied to Apple choices of sub-optimum hardware and also that you can get PCs that perform similarly or much, much better than Macs, depending on purpose, from between 1/5 and 1/2 of the price, depending on whether you want a turnkey solution from a pro audio company or not. Thanks for doubling down on this for the benefit of future readers.
1/5th instead of 1/3rd? Haha. These cheap PCs are getting cheaper every day on this thread. My advise is to wait another couple of days when you could pick one up for less than 1/10th.
Old 14th July 2017
  #1190
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
1/5th instead of 1/3rd? Haha. These cheap PCs are getting cheaper every day on this thread. My advise is to wait another couple of days when you could pick one up for less than 1/10th.
There are many options me ol' son, I was speaking of buying new machines before since you are limited to this with iMacs. But upgrading a PC or old Mac Pro can be 1/5th (or less) of the price of a new one.

But you are correct that there is another option that can prove better value still, and that is buying used, where the enormous losses involved in owning a Mac aren't replicated on the PC side (since they are 33% to 50% the cost when new). People aren't as desperate to get as much money as possible to shore up their losses because they can essentially give them away and still not lose as much money as when owning a Mac and selling on for the 'better resale value'.

So thanks for pointing this out, it's great to have you on the team.

edit: I'm surprised you haven't asked about Ryzen and matching cores and/or performance in the other direction. That's a £550 upgrade for CPU/mobo/RAM vs a £4K machine, which is roughly 14% of the price.

Last edited by captain caveman; 14th July 2017 at 07:29 PM..
Old 14th July 2017
  #1191
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zephonic's Avatar
Old 14th July 2017
  #1192
OMU
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OMU's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zephonic View Post
What's more hilarious is pc users spending a lot of time on a mac thread, determined to teach mac users once and for all, that macs are just bad
Old 14th July 2017
  #1193
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMU View Post
What's more hilarious is pc users spending a lot of time on a mac thread, determined to teach mac users once and for all, that macs are just bad
I really wish people like you would stop with the above nonsense.

I've assembled several PCs for both professional and personal use, but I do 90% of all my work on Macs. They range from graters to trashcans to iMacs, older OSX, Pro Tools TDM, Pro Tools HDX, Native... you name it.

"We" respond because we have experience actually getting paid for working on both platforms. And we're not saying "macs are just bad".

It's so incredibly tedious reading this kind of nonsense. Just because someone has negative opinions about SOME aspects of Apple's products doesn't mean that person thinks they're bad. I think OSX is great. I think Apple computers are great with great hardware. I just happen to think exactly the same thing about Win and PCs, and that Apple products are overpriced.

Can we be adult enough to allow people to voice differing opinions?

Again - many of us work on Apple products most of the time and have opinions about for example the trash can exactly because we work on them....
Old 14th July 2017
  #1194
Gear Addict
 

they're both just computers with some that cost more than they should...sometimes they work, sometimes they don't...just like d^^ks.

g
Old 14th July 2017
  #1195
Lives for gear
 

I upvoted OMU for the irony. This thread has many, many more views than the participants and will be Bingable long after we've forgotten about it. Correcting misinformation helps other people in the present and future make balanced decisions.

It's great to like/love something or prefer X to Y. But when you prefer X to Y because of Z then Z has to either absolutely true or a personal belief that you don't share if you don't want to cause an argument.
Old 14th July 2017
  #1196
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3rdpath's Avatar
I am so done with the Mac vs PC thing.

Think I'll go to the electronic music section and see how the analog vs digital discussion is going...

Old 14th July 2017
  #1197
Tui
Gear Guru
 
Tui's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdpath View Post
I am so done with the Mac vs PC thing.

Think I'll go to the electronic music section and see how the analog vs digital discussion is going...

Old 15th July 2017
  #1198
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
First thing I noticed is that it didn't sit firmly on the table, it started moving around from just interacting with it.
I'm sure Microsoft will fix that with a software update.
Old 15th July 2017
  #1199
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lowkey's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post

But you are correct that there is another option that can prove better value still, and that is buying used, where the enormous losses involved in owning a Mac aren't replicated on the PC side (since they are 33% to 50% the cost when new). People aren't as desperate to get as much money as possible to shore up their losses because they can essentially give them away and still not lose as much money as when owning a Mac and selling on for the 'better resale value'.
e.
things are getting desperate when you're trying argue PCs are better value because they are worthless second hand
Old 15th July 2017
  #1200
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
things are getting desperate when you're trying argue PCs are better value because they are worthless second hand

You clearly do not understand basic economics.

It is not the percentage loss that is important, it is the real money lose that is.
e.g A loss of say 50% on $1000 is less ($500) than a 25% loss on $3000 ($750)!
So his statement is valid.

The people who are desperate are the ones claiming that Macs are better because of photo syncing, whine about the registry (which is rich because macOS is a flaming turd under the "hood" in many regards) and brand PC users as pirates!
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