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Tim Cook on Mac Desktop commitment Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 8th January 2017
  #91
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pulsar modular's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by latweek View Post
That analogy (o god not the cars again, its 2017), doesn't hold just because one isn't willing to get up to speed on many OS options, or a basic hackintosh that has had straightforward build instructions on TonyMac for about 10 years running - if that's what you meant by a Dodge Viper (sorry if I misunderstood your point on that model!)

Give it a shot - I've personally done it and can assure you that options are viable. Many entrenched die hard PT users are now converted to other DAW platforms on other OSes daily, people who once swore by their MAC/PT solution. It works, and I've had mine without issues since 2010. 7 years of no downtime.

It is a personal CHOICE to keep a disfunctional or irrational attachment, but I do agree in that if one views the experience through the lens of a passive consumer, the days of Apple providing a state of the art, turnkey creative solution are gone.

Editing to add one more point: I am not a technology fetishist, rather a agnostic musician. I think there is a problem with getting attached to gear in a way that is counterproductive to the actual work. My DAW, the box and OS it is in, and the DACs should be seen and not heard. Just give me the most power, stability, and features whatever the brand is. The rest is really up to me to get on with banging keys and tweaking sounds so that I can make some art that has feeling without getting tied to any particular roadmap, company, product, workflow or camp.
Passive consumer, LOL. It was a poor analogy but I meant Windows. Apple is abandoning the pro segment. Very few people in a professional environment are going to be interested in building their own computers or running hacked operating systems. There's enough trouble just with the different versions of the OS.
Old 8th January 2017
  #92
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zimv20's Avatar
 

reading through the thread, one might come away with the impression that Jobs did well by pro users, and Cook is abandoning them.

that is not my recollection at all. the slowdown of mac pro innovation, and slowdown of release timeframes and upgrades were well under way while Jobs was still in charge.

i don't see any messaging from Apple that pros should hold out for something more powerful and more expandable than the iMac. i think it's clear that, to Cook, that *is* the pro line. he would say it's powerful enough for almost everyone's needs and, through TB, easily expandable.

i don't agree w/ that viewpoint, but i think that's how he, and Apple, feel.

---------------

on a side note, i've been using Macs since 1986 and Unix before that even. OSX is a natural OS for me to use for audio. i hate the idea of moving to Windows. hate it, hate it, hate it. but here i am considering it, because my 6-core 2012 tower, combined with PT, is neither as powerful nor as stable as i need it to be.
Old 8th January 2017
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcoughlan View Post
Bottom line: it makes more "cents" to devote resources to iMacs and Mac Minis and tablets than it does to Mac Pro. Perhaps under Steve Jobs this didn't really matter. Under Tim Cook it appears to.
If you know something we don't about Apple's cost structure per product you should share. AFAIK you don't know much about this nor do we as a community. I haven't looked in product detail in the financial reports. but I'm pretty sure they're not listed per product.

As far as I'm concerned, there is no new Mac Pro and that's all we know. Also, I'm quite upset by this fact.
Old 8th January 2017
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pulsar modular View Post
Apple is abandoning the pro segment.
This may appear so, but we don't know this for a fact. But we're in the brink of chaos now…
Old 8th January 2017
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zimv20 View Post
r
i don't see any messaging from Apple that pros should hold out for something more powerful and more expandable than the iMac. i think it's clear that, to Cook, that *is* the pro line. he would say it's powerful enough for almost everyone's needs and, through TB, easily expandable.

i don't agree w/ that viewpoint, but i think that's how he, and Apple, feel.
I disagree with this. I don't think that's how Tim Cook nor Apple feels about the "Pro" machines. Did Apple gamble on that people would continue to purchase Macs if they rarely updated them? Yes! People did buy them too! In 2015-2016 Apple sold at least as many Macs than ever before per period and more than ever in at least some quarters.

Of course, if we focus only on the Pro machines that will be different, but I'm pretty sure MBPs sold really well.

Well, I'm going to keep my hope up for a viable Mac Pro in 2017. I'm not going to think about it though, because I'll go crazy. I'll just build my own in my own time.
Old 8th January 2017
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
If you know something we don't about Apple's cost structure per product you should share. AFAIK you don't know much about this nor do we as a community. I haven't looked in product detail in the financial reports. but I'm pretty sure they're not listed per product.
You introduced a global desktop profit figure that requires the Mac Pro to be independently profitable in order to bolster your argument, but then point out that PPP aren't disclosed to reject the logical counterargument? Sorry, you can't have it both ways.

I don't have to know anything about Apple's cost structure per product to know it will cost them more to research, develop and support new iMacs and new Mac Pros vs. an iMac line alone.

Now, if the profit was also there with the MP line, they would be kicking them out or updating them every year or two, like they do iPhones and watches. As the saying goes, follow the money.

Quote:
that is not my recollection at all. the slowdown of mac pro innovation, and slowdown of release timeframes and upgrades were well under way while Jobs was still in charge.
Not my memory. People didn't really start complaining about the Pro being underpowered until 2010/11. Jobs' health started to become professionally limiting around 08/09, and Tim Cook had a few interim stints there.

The last great Mac Pro (Cheesegrater) was also likely the last one fully under Jobs' watch. He probably had a hand in developing the TrashCan but certainly wasn't available for the last 2.5 years of it or anything after. Perhaps this could all be coincidence, but I'm not sure it is, given the history and respective focuses of the two CEOs.
Old 8th January 2017
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Of course, if we focus only on the Pro machines that will be different, but I'm pretty sure MBPs sold really well.
yes, i'm separating pro desktops from pro laptops. Apple is clearly investing in the MBPro. what i'm saying is, for desktop, i think that *they* think the iMac is the future, not the Mac Pro.

Quote:
Well, I'm going to keep my hope up for a viable Mac Pro in 2017.
me too. i hope i'm wrong, i'm just reading the tea leaves. when they released the trashcan, i was happy that Apple was still investing in the platform. at the time, i thought it meant more regular releases and upgrades, but that hasn't really happened.

i'm running an HD Native card. so if i move to a trashcan, that's an additional expense of moving that card into a housing w/ Thunderbolt. before i make that kind of investment, i need to know that Apple is serious about the Mac Pro. short of that, as i indicated, i might move to Windows (ugh).
Old 8th January 2017
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcoughlan View Post
You introduced a global desktop profit figure that requires the Mac Pro to be independently profitable in order to bolster your argument
I did not. At least I didn't intend to do that. I have not said Mac Pros must bear its costs at all. I have argued that it makes sense to view the Pro segment, and maybe the whole computer section, as a whole.
I've also said that Apple currently makes something just short of 4.000.000.000 in profits per year from their computer line. I don't speculate on why Apple does make, or doesn't make, its decisions. I understand we can observe what we can and decide ,for ourselves and for people that rely on us, on that. That doesn't mean we know the whys.
Old 8th January 2017
  #99
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Mike O's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zimv20 View Post

i don't see any messaging from Apple that pros should hold out for something more powerful and more expandable than the iMac. i think it's clear that, to Cook, that *is* the pro line. he would say it's powerful enough for almost everyone's needs and, through TB, easily expandable.

i don't agree w/ that viewpoint, but i think that's how he, and Apple, feel.
I suspect you are correct regarding Apple's vision of the desktop. This is consistent with the 'cloud' vision of the industry as a whole.

We'll soon find out if Apple understands or cares that there are people who need real power in their own hands.

I'm in the same boat with you are: a hex core 2012 as my current audio machine. Except I've been using both OS's for years and at least since Win 7 don't hesitate to go MS at all. Not a a heavy Logic user so nothing I can do on a much cheaper, just as stable MS box.

And I won't have to go through the OSX routine of breaking software until vendor fix. Sometimes happens in Win, but much less often. At least with the stuff I use. A problem for some users (not here) has been 'auto-update' of drivers; causing working systems to update working drivers with non-working ones. I saw a post only yesterday that a new build of Win 10 is going to allow users to opt out of driver updates. That build was published and then withdrawn due to other reasons. Will probably show back up in a few days.

All that said Apple is sitting on close to $250 billion. Even if they have to end up paying taxes on the money they have held outside the country they will have an enormous amount of money for development and acquisitions. It hard to believe that their new offices are going to be in support of the current Phones, iMacs, Watches, and iPads. Most of which have seen a decline in sales.

The next 18 months should be very interesting....
Old 8th January 2017
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zimv20 View Post
yes, i'm separating pro desktops from pro laptops. Apple is clearly investing in the MBPro. what i'm saying is, for desktop, i think that *they* think the iMac is the future, not the Mac Pro.

me too. i hope i'm wrong, i'm just reading the tea leaves. when they released the trashcan, i was happy that Apple was still investing in the platform. at the time, i thought it meant more regular releases and upgrades, but that hasn't really happened.
I can see that, but I don't think Apple thinks the iMac is the future even if it's in it. I also thought they'd continue to develop the line. If it didn't sell come out with a more attractive option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zimv20 View Post
y
i need to know that Apple is serious about the Mac Pro. short of that, as i indicated, i might move to Windows (ugh).
Which is all very understandable. All I can say, to those that do care, is keep hammering Apple on this.
Old 8th January 2017
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcoughlan View Post
Not my memory. People didn't really start complaining about the Pro being underpowered until 2010/11. Jobs' health started to become professionally limiting around 08/09, and Tim Cook had a few interim stints there.

The last great Mac Pro (Cheesegrater) was also likely the last one fully under Jobs' watch. He probably had a hand in developing the TrashCan but certainly wasn't available for the last 2.5 years of it or anything after. Perhaps this could all be coincidence, but I'm not sure it is, given the history and respective focuses of the two CEOs.
How is the Trashcan not the typical Steve Jobs machine?

Last edited by Mikael B; 10th January 2017 at 10:46 AM.. Reason: Removed something another user didn't like.
Old 8th January 2017
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcoughlan View Post
Now, if the profit was also there with the MP line, they would be kicking them out or updating them every year or two, like they do iPhones and watches. As the saying goes, follow the money.
I'm not saying you can't be correct on this, but you are not following the money. You are guessing. It might be a really good guess, but then again, you might be off by quite a bit.

I find my team explanation to be way more likely. This is also speculation of course. The problem is we may never find out who's right, or how off we are and by what amount. Will we care when the new Mac Pro 2017 has been released? I think it won't be enough that they release something high-end computing oriented. They need to do more. Like blow our minds again.
Old 8th January 2017
  #103
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zimv20's Avatar
 

maybe everyone here is familiar with this page, but if not... MacRumors has a Buyer's Guide where they track releases. it's been 1116 days since the last Mac Pro release. the average is 449.

iPhone, iPad, Mac Buyer's Guide: Know When to Buy
Old 8th January 2017
  #104
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pulsar modular's Avatar
 

How old is the Mac Pro (released in Dec 2013)?

Discover how old your computer is in human years.

Your computer is approximately 58 human years old.

Old 8th January 2017
  #105
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zimv20's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pulsar modular View Post
How old is the Mac Pro (released in Dec 2013)?

Discover how old your computer is in human years.
heh, mine is 84.

but last year i sold off my first mac, still working, at 574 years old.
Old 8th January 2017
  #106
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rockreid's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pulsar modular View Post
How old is the Mac Pro (released in Dec 2013)?

Discover how old your computer is in human years.

Your computer is approximately 58 human years old.

Heh heh 11 years old.

6900k broadwell-e ...overclocked a bit to 4.2ghz. With current CPU (lack of) speed increases, should last me until it is 100 computer years old
Old 8th January 2017
  #107
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lestermagneto's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pulsar modular View Post
How old is the Mac Pro (released in Dec 2013)?

Discover how old your computer is in human years.

Your computer is approximately 58 human years old.

wow, my workstation cpu at home is 135 years old! hope not near
Old 9th January 2017
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
How is the Trashcan not the typical Steve Jobs machine? Hello?
Uh, are you joking? Steve Jobs died two years before the machine was released and was sick for a while before that. There's no saying he even saw a prototype. Hardly typical of the insane micromanaging he did for others.

You're so insistent on arguing completely illogical points that I'm starting to think you're just trolling.

Quote:
The problem is we may never find out who's right, or how off we are and by what amount.
Yeah, we're all speculating. But if Apple doesn't release a Mac Pro in 2017/beyond, I think it's safe to say everyone who thinks Mac has given up on a high end desktop line is "right."

Quote:
Will we care when the new Mac Pro 2017 has been released?
I won't care if they release one in 2017 unless it's a significantly more powerful machine than the PC I just built. Problem is Apple has been absolutely silent on the NVIDIA graphics card driver front (not a focus for most people here, but very important to people who deal with video), which leads me to believe that's pretty much impossible.

If they pull their own chip/graphics solution out of a hat, I'll be excited... but most available evidence available suggests abandonment. (Feel free to troll me again by saying that doesn't mean it's a guarantee.)
Old 9th January 2017
  #109
Tui
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Who do Apple think makes all the content other Mac users enjoy via Apple products?
They don't think about it, that's the problem.

Non-creatives don't think the way creatives do - they live to safeguard security. By way of contrast, creatives think about what could be, and are willing to forgo security. Tim Cook, to me, looks like an archetypical control freak, quite similar to Ballmer. Also, Cook's attempts at political advocacy speak volumes... Something Steve Jobs was asked to do many times, yet refrained from, for obvious reasons.

"In 1971 after Wozniak began University of California, Berkeley, Jobs began to visit him in Berkeley a few times a week. This experience led him to study in nearby Stanford University's student union. Jobs also decided that rather than join the electronics club, he would put on light shows with a friend for Homestead's avant-garde Jazz program. He was described by a Homestead classmate as "kind of a brain and kind of a hippie ... but he never fit into either group. He was smart enough to be a nerd, but wasn't nerdy. And he was too intellectual for the hippies, who just wanted to get wasted all the time. He was kind of an outsider."
Old 9th January 2017
  #110
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Intel's Server CPU development has slowed down a lot in the past few years
I am not sure what Intel even has beyond the current E7 chip.
The MP have E5 processors and the E7 specs are that much better than the E5
Though the E7-8890 has 24 cores I run crazy huge 96K sessions on my 12 Core E5 MP and it never hits a brick wall.
Plus now days with Track Freeze/Commit my sessions can be even larger and lowers the CPU usage.
If a person needs to run 128 instances of Kontakt, Traiilian, Omnisphere and what ever other VI's you have and you never freeze or commit anything maybe one needs to look at your workflow rather buying or upgrading your computer every 2 years.
Certainly pushing a button and waiting 30 seconds for a bunch of VI's to freeze can't be that hard
Old 9th January 2017
  #111
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
In 2015-2016 Apple sold at least as many Macs than ever before per period and more than ever in at least some quarters.
It looks like Mac market share dropped in 2016.

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/mac-marke...194620610.html
Old 9th January 2017
  #112
Gear Addict
 

I think if Apple were going to update the 2013 Mac Pro form factor they would have already done this by now. The discontinuation of the Apple Thunderbolt Display instead of updating it also raises questions about the future of Apple's desktops. There is really no hint as to what Apple are up to but there is concern that if Apple doesn't release something fairly soon, above and beyond an updated iMac, there might not be much of a market left to sell to. At least not what has until now been considered the "Pro" market.
Old 9th January 2017
  #113
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
What's your charge out rate to research, order, build and test the machine?

Mine is $190/hr, so I'd need to factor that into the cost.
How long would it take to source, build and get the machine up an running?
Well Yes it would take some extra time to build the computer so you would need to factor that in. To keep the cost at 4k you could downgrade the cpu to an 8 core to compensate for the time, and still have a much more powerful computer than the mac pro. Otherwise if you don't want to buy a custom pc and test it, you can order from a company that specializes in DAW computers. Just do a google search. To me though, a lot of the fun (and the best value) is building the computer and putting it together. Yes it takes some time but its worth it. Once you do it you'll get addicted, and its fairly easy. I don't build computers commercially but I build them for myself and a lot of my friends who do audio. I have been building computers for years!
Old 9th January 2017
  #114
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pulsar modular's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastlanephil View Post
It looks like Mac market share dropped in 2016.

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/mac-marke...194620610.html
“...Apple’s own data fits the view of a shrinking Mac. In October, the company reported sales of 4.9 million Macs for the September quarter.” This marks a 14 percent year-over-year decline and the fourth consecutive quarterly downturn.....Apple’s sales slump in the past year has been more pronounced than for the PC industry as a whole, according to prominent industry researchers like IDC and Gartner."

That seems like an own goal. The result of a stagnant product line.
Old 9th January 2017
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcoughlan View Post
Uh, are you joking? Steve Jobs died two years before the machine was released and was sick for a while before that. There's no saying he even saw a prototype. Hardly typical of the insane micromanaging he did for others.
While that that may be true, you're betting the Mac Pro was envisioned and built in just a few years. While I have no evidence, I can imagine it was some more years before the release than just a few, that the idea for the Last Mac Pro took form. Long product development times are nothing new with Apple.

Whether Steve was involved at some point or not doesn't matter. When it was released in 2013 it reminded me strongly of certain machines he had been involved with before, but the Mac Pro was much better. I welcomed the new design even as I also understand those that saw the problems and impracticalities. It was bold and moved desktop computing forward as is typical of Apple (Interestingly Microsoft recently did this as well). Had they kept parts up to date it would still be a attractive and revolutionary machine. I think it's still revolutionary, but not so attractive. For those that wanted old desktops, or at least new designs more to their liking, never was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcoughlan View Post
You're so insistent on arguing completely illogical points that I'm starting to think you're just trolling.
Illogical to you. So when people disagree with your speculations they're trolling? Since when is disagreeing trolling? I'd rather say you're trolling with your derogatory tone, though I'd hope you just had a bad moment there.
Your take on the reality of Apple is not the only valid one. I've been in the game long enough to know what is likely and not. Doesn't mean my speculations are more valid than others, but they're not illogical just because you're not following.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcoughlan View Post

…if Apple doesn't release a Mac Pro in 2017/beyond, I think it's safe to say everyone who thinks Mac has given up on a high end desktop line is "right."
That's a given, more or less. If not in 2017 I give up.

Last edited by Mikael B; 9th January 2017 at 04:36 AM..
Old 9th January 2017
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pulsar modular View Post
“...Apple’s own data fits the view of a shrinking Mac. In October, the company reported sales of 4.9 million Macs for the September quarter.” This marks a 14 percent year-over-year decline and the fourth consecutive quarterly downturn.....Apple’s sales slump in the past year has been more pronounced than for the PC industry as a whole, according to prominent industry researchers like IDC and Gartner."

That seems like an own goal. The result of a stagnant product line.
Market share has never been a good measurement of Apple success. As I think I've already said Apple made 1.000.000.000 in profits on computers alone in Q3 2016. How much profits did a company like Dell —or a computer maker of your choosing — make in this period? What's that company's market share? Compare those numbers.

But the Mac line is in a stagnated shape currently. It's just the MBP that is new now.
Old 9th January 2017
  #117
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Doesn't mean my speculations are more valid than others, but they're not illogical just because you're not following.
Again:

Quote:
How is the Trashcan not the typical Steve Jobs machine? Hello?
Steve Jobs was known for managing every aspect of a release until the minute he got up on stage to present it. He literally died two years before the Pro came out. That's not typical.

You even say

Quote:
Whether Steve was involved at some point or not doesn't matter.
So it can be typical, even if he was never involved. That's not logical. Nor is citing 4bn in profits in one post and then 1bn in profits a few posts later, which you just did.

So you're right, I'm not following you, and I'm also done here. If you're not a troll, at the very least you're making up numbers and not even paying attention to your own posts and I don't really have a time or interest in continuing this discussion.

(Also, if you feel the need to talk about 'derogatory tone', perhaps you should reference your own posts. Or by "Hello?" were you just extending a greeting?)
Old 9th January 2017
  #118
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zephonic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastlanephil View Post
It looks like Mac market share dropped in 2016.

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/mac-marke...194620610.html
That's a real headscratcher.

Three years ago Apple proudly boasted that Mac sales were increasing despite an industry-wide decline. Now they're sales are decreasing faster than the industry average.

If I were a board member, I'd have a few questions.
Old 9th January 2017
  #119
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Joe Porto's Avatar
 

What other company sells a 4 year old technology product (Mac Pro) at the same premium pice it was when new? Is anyone actually buying them now?
Old 9th January 2017
  #120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Porto View Post
What other company sells a 4 year old technology product (Mac Pro) at the same premium pice it was when new? Is anyone actually buying them now?
I wonder that too... this is just ridiculous. That's why I wait for new models to be released. If that's going to happen ever.
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