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Tim Cook on Mac Desktop commitment Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 12th July 2017
  #1111
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stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post

Interesting. One of the main reasons for people to use Macs is because they claim they don't want to know about how computers are supposed to work. So do our customers, btw.
Are you saying your customers don't understand the difference between a computer and a typewriter??

There's a difference between being 'non-technical' and, say, understanding that a computing device like an iPhone can browse the Internet and make calls and play music.
Without 'optimising' (=babysitting) it to perform one task really well.





Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
Developers can choose to use individual files or the registry, or both.
So you have a poorly designed piece of software, but there are workarounds.
Doesn't diminish the poor design concept in any way...



Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
I am convinced that someone who does his homework about building a PC can build a much better system than an iMac.
If that was the case, any teen building a PC at home could get an engineering job at Apple.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
An iMac is nothing but a good screen in a posh design with laptop parts and an OS that runs fine out of the box. It is a mediocre unit, nothing more, nothing less.
That's in line with the 'it's all about looks' misconception that comes up again and again, by folks who really don't get what Apple does, and why people buy their products.


If you look at the current PC laptop market, you see lots of PCs that look somewhat similar to previous Apple laptops. The PC manufacturers don't get what Apple does, and try to copy the looks only (they don't get that quite right, either).
Then you have PC users who buy these slightly better looking pieces of junk technology.
To deduct from that that Apple users are all about the looks is drawing wrong conclusions, IMHO.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
Interesting that ALL cross platform DAWs that have been benched have ALL run better on Windows than on OSX, especially for low latency, DESPITE the hidden buffer in CoreAudio.

Benchmarks, especially if you reduce them to one benchmark, do have their place, but more interesting for me would be how quickly actual tasks can be accomplished, with how much or how little hassle.
Old 12th July 2017
  #1112
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
So you have a poorly designed piece of software, but there are workarounds. Doesn't diminish the poor design concept in any way...
If Windows is such a poor design, how come it dominates the desktop space, has a huge part of the workstation and server market and a significant part of the cloud computing market while Macs have a tiny bit of the desktop market, don't even show up on workstation market graphs, have zero percent of the server market let alone cloud computing?

Windows is a much better performing OS than OS X. IT professionals that actually test and benchmark stuff all know this. You on the other hand have demonstrated that you understand absolutely nothing about how computer OS's and software work.

Quote:
If that was the case, any teen building a PC at home could get an engineering job at Apple.
This makes no sense whatsoever. The iMac is a consumer gadget aimed at consumers. It is very easy to build a computer that is more powerful than an iMac. Apple could easily do it too but they choose not to. They choose not to because they are a consumer company aimed at the consumer market. It seems they can fool part of their target audience by adding the word "Pro" to some of their products but they can not fool the real pro's. That is why they don't show up as anything more than a rounding error in workstation market share graphs.

Here is an example:




(There are more recent graphs but they are less detailed so I used this one).

Even in the creative sector Macs are loosing ground because Apple don't provide competitive products. (I've talked about this before in this thread).

Quote:
That's in line with the 'it's all about looks' misconception that comes up again and again, by folks who really don't get what Apple does, and why people buy their products.
There are valid reasons to buy Macs, and I don't just mean Logic, but the discussion has veered towards performance and when it comes to performance, Apple do not deliver. You seem to believe they do but that is because you were fooled by Apple marketing and are in denial. Due to your utter lack of technical understanding, you remain ignorant and keep believing the marketing.

Quote:
If you look at the current PC laptop market, you see lots of PCs that look somewhat similar to previous Apple laptops. The PC manufacturers don't get what Apple does, and try to copy the looks only (they don't get that quite right, either).
Then you have PC users who buy these slightly better looking pieces of junk technology.
To deduct from that that Apple users are all about the looks is drawing wrong conclusions, IMHO.
You can't draw any conclusions from the nonsense you make up. Garbage in, garbage out. The only part you are right about is that Apple make nice (looking) laptops but I think everyone already agrees on that.

Quote:
more interesting for me would be how quickly actual tasks can be accomplished, with how much or how little hassle.
That is a valid point but that is a much harder metric to qualify as everyone works differently. No one begrudges you that you like Macs and like the workflow they allow you but it seems quite a few are objecting to the utter nonsense you make up about the technical side of the discussion.


Alistair
Old 12th July 2017
  #1113
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ponzi's Avatar
My understanding from tony mac is that a hackintosh is different from a mac in significant ways. The hackintosh boot software, at boot time, patches some OS data structures to fool osx into thinking its running on official mac hardware, maybe even to get it to run properly. Apparently this works well enough at this point. I see some risks going forward:
1) Apple stops turning a blind eye to hackintosh websites and developers and goes after them.
2) Hack developers are not able to prepare a work able boot process for new hardware and new osx--like if apple doesn't use x86 standard cpus.
3) Bugs in the boot software--no assurance of support by a hacker/volunteer community.

Apple has in the past shut down hardware vendors preparing ready-made hacks, so its a matter of assembling your own and following a documented software implementation process. Anecdotally, once one get's ones hack up and running, it will continue to run without problems for the most part.

While most of the hackintosh hardware is off the shelf kind of stuff, osx requires a limited set of video cards, and these cards need to be patched to show the boot screen, which adds a fair amount to the cost. The hack fools osx into thinking the pc is an imac. There is not support to emulate a mac pro to my knowledge.

What is different from stock pc hardware is the firmware/bios stuff and this reflects that the motherboard on mac gear is very much not off the shelf hardware--this is in essence, their copy protection dongle.

So, I see hacks as running well enough at this moment, but being vulnerable to future osx changes. Not advocating for or against a hack, but just clarifying how it works under the hood. Facing this dilemma, I had mac and looked closely at a hackintosh, and made the investment to move to windows 10 instead. Perhaps spent $1,000 on software to get equal functionality on windows, as I regrettably bought logic and final cut x. (I got Cubase, photo and video editing software some plug ins. Most utilities were free.) I already had a very powerful xeon based system I was using as a virtual machine host and I just re-purposed that.

One problem I do have with this setup is that if I want to go with newer cpu technology at some point, it requires a new motherboard which triggers a big hassle with Microsoft windows authentication and maybe another $120 purchase of windows, but this is a small cost overall--if an extremely irritating one.

Lots of discussion about how apple could make money by giving up the workstation market and work with existing vendors like dell, and sell osx to run on other people's hardware. For reasons that seem opaque to me, they choose to let their workstation product die in the marketplace and in the customer's minds rather than change their business model that has dramatically reduced their market share vis a vis windows. Another discussion, though, and one that leads nowhere because its impossible to make sense of how apple looks at this and impossible to predict their future actions.

Last edited by ponzi; 12th July 2017 at 02:48 PM..
Old 12th July 2017
  #1114
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
Are you saying your customers don't understand the difference between a computer and a typewriter??
No, did I?

Quote:
There's a difference between being 'non-technical' and, say, understanding that a computing device like an iPhone can browse the Internet and make calls and play music.
Without 'optimising' (=babysitting) it to perform one task really well.
Well, let me tell you what options exist in Windows land, as you seem to have never visited it nor having read anything about it, however you like to argue about it (which is getting very tiresome):
-either you buy a ready made box. Like a Mac. All is set. Done. Just work. No babysitting.
-or you want to save money/see it as a hobby/like the adventure and you build a system yourself. Then you go to the Steinberg/Pro Tools/Focusrite/etc./etc./etc. website and do the few tweaks necessary. Takes approx. 10, maybe 15 minutes. End of babysitting. You don't get paid for it, but you can go home and be creative for the rest of its existence.

Quote:
So you have a poorly designed piece of software, but there are workarounds.
Doesn't diminish the poor design concept in any way...
You keep on spitting your own opinion/judgement, apparently without having a clue about Windows - you have proven that by now - which is of absolutely no relevance to anyone. We have a few thousand workstations out there, doing jobs that most Macs cannot even handle, in realtime, on stage, no error allowed, all running Windows. You may even drive a car which was designed with our Windows workstations. But that damn poor registry...keeps bugging us...

Quote:
If that was the case, any teen building a PC at home could get an engineering job at Apple.
Wait...Apple uses off-the-shelf components? They buy from Microcenter? Or Newegg?

Quote:
That's in line with the 'it's all about looks' misconception that comes up again and again, by folks who really don't get what Apple does, and why people buy their products.
I made a living of testing software on Windows, OS9 and OSX, had a glimpse in BeOS and have worked with several Macs both privately and for business. I actually spent 2 hours on an iMac last night cutting dialog in Wavelab. I know what these boxes do.


Quote:
If you look at the current PC laptop market, you see lots of PCs that look somewhat similar to previous Apple laptops. The PC manufacturers don't get what Apple does, and try to copy the looks only (they don't get that quite right, either).
Then you have PC users who buy these slightly better looking pieces of junk technology.
To deduct from that that Apple users are all about the looks is drawing wrong conclusions, IMHO.
I partly agree with that. You miss the part that they DO understand what Apple does, but they cannot make money with it. Mac users want Macs. Mac users will not switch to a PC which works and looks like a Mac, but which does not use OSX. So they make money on low budget products with high margins and a low price. Not my market either.

Quote:
Benchmarks, especially if you reduce them to one benchmark, do have their place, but more interesting for me would be how quickly actual tasks can be accomplished, with how much or how little hassle.
For most audio people that is a second relevance, but having used both Macs and PC's for both audio and office, I can say that regarding task accomplishment, both have their strengths and weaknesses. Overall I stayed on OSX/iMac for a long time for office but eventually switched as I cannot stand its windows handling (no pun intended). That is a personal preference, what I do miss about OSX is its excellent and fast search/indexing.
Old 12th July 2017
  #1115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
I already explained what I meant by 'integration with other computing devices'. Right now, I'm in the process of creating a new (music related) website for myself. I take pics on my iPad, and edit them on iPad. They show up immediately, without any kind of user interaction, in Aperture on my Mac, to be used with Squarespace.

This is just one example where 'integration with other computing devices' that saves a lot of time and hassle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
When I add a contact from a new person on my iPhone, it shows up on all other devices, without interaction, and while preserving my privacy (unlike anything from Google, who harvest all information for advertising purposes).
When I add a contact on my Lumia 950 W10 Mobile phone it appears automatically in my contacts on my W10 laptop and in outlook using my browser. Same thing. When I take a photo on my phone it automatically syncs - if I choose to - to OneDrive, making it accessible on all devices.

When I connect my W10M phone to my computer it shows up in the "Finder" as yet another device that I can browse freely. I can create, move and delete folders on my phone using my desktop.

I just don't think you have the experience of using Windows 10 and Windows 10 Mobile to really understand to what degree there is integration of devices. But two more points though;

- First of all, you editing photos on an iPad to put on your website has nothing to do with people using a DAW. This is a forum for musicians and engineers and our primary concern is different. So I don't see how it's relevant. If you want to stray from our primary tasks then the sky is the limit really.

- Secondly, you talk about Google harvesting all you information. You don't think that Apple grabs your data? Of course it does. They all do. They need your telemetry data to provide the services you use. When people misunderstand this they lash out at companies X and Y because they're emotionally invested in company Z. But it's pretty much all the same crap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
When I plug in a USB hard disk, it shows up on the desktop, ready to use.
When I plug in a USB stick, I never see a bizarre dialogue that offers to install a driver, it shows up on the desktop, ready to use.
You don't necessarily get that behavior, it really depends. But like I said, in addition I can plug in my W10M phone and it shows up as yet another device to browse, just like a hard drive. I will say that I am basing this on memory only: You can't do that with an iPhone, can you?
Old 12th July 2017
  #1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
You don't necessarily get that behavior, it really depends.
When inserting a USB drive for the first time, it asks what it should do and offers various optiions, including to switch off that dialog. You can also switch that behaviour off in the general control panel. While I do switch it off immediately on new systems, it actually is a nice helping hand.

Quote:
But like I said, in addition I can plug in my W10M phone and it shows up as yet another device to browse, just like a hard drive. I will say that I am basing this on memory only: You can't do that with an iPhone, can you?
No you can't, only pictures. Syncing music and ringtones is a bloody mess with the worst application ever, iTunes. I rather mingle around in the Windows registry 24/7 than dealing with that pile of crap.
I need to get out now, a vessel is about to burst...
Old 12th July 2017
  #1117
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stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
- First of all, you editing photos on an iPad to put on your website has nothing to do with people using a DAW.
That was kind of my point: a computer reduced to a DAW only machine not being used for tasks that musicians/sound engineers do every day, like maintaining a website (which includes images, at least for me). How are these not relevant??



Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
- Secondly, you talk about Google harvesting all you information. You don't think that Apple grabs your data? Of course it does. They all do.

No, no, no.
Google is an advertising company, their sole source of income is advertising.
Apple's primary source of income is hardware.
For Apple, it's a business advantage to respect user data, not harvest them, and advertise that they do processing only with local data, not with cloud data. Even if it means that performance of services like Siri suffers.


When you sign up to any Google services, you sign that your data are used for advertising. It's a business transaction: your data for their services.
Old 12th July 2017
  #1118
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Interesting to see what you chose to respond to.....
Old 12th July 2017
  #1119
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jwh1192's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimmyMac View Post
For instance Game Center is running in background by default! Crazy!
hi, where are you finding this ?? i do not see Game Center on my MAC .. can you help me find it ??

thx john

EDIT: game center .. now i remember seeing it in iCloud .. interesting ..
Old 12th July 2017
  #1120
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post
hi, where are you finding this ?? i do not see Game Center on my MAC .. can you help me find it ??

thx john
Check Activity Monitor for "gamed"
Old 12th July 2017
  #1121
Tui
Gear Guru
 
Tui's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
I haven't seen macOS 'break' anything with DAWs, ever.
I've seen macOS "break" my entire rig. Whoever signed off on the release of Sierra should look for a new line of work.
Old 12th July 2017
  #1122
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jwh1192's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimmyMac View Post
Check Activity Monitor for "gamed"
thank you, i do see that .. was looking there waiting for reply .. is ther also a Game Center ?? i do not see that ..

and how ar you dealing with Gamed ?? are you using Terminal solutions to remove or ??

thx for your advise .. john
Old 12th July 2017
  #1123
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stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimmyMac View Post
Check Activity Monitor for "gamed"
Sure, running a background process at 0% CPU that uses 8MB RAM is insane. How could they.
Old 12th July 2017
  #1124
Tui
Gear Guru
 
Tui's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimmyMac View Post
Check Activity Monitor for "gamed"
Not happening here. Mind you, I never play games on my Macs.
Old 12th July 2017
  #1125
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stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post

and how ar you dealing with Gamed ?? are you using Terminal solutions to remove or ??
To get rid of the horrible performance issues caused by this process, type into Terminal:

sudo howlatthemoon -t
Old 12th July 2017
  #1126
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jwh1192's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
To get rid of the horrible performance issues caused by this process, type into Terminal:

sudo howlatthemoon -t
how lat the moon ... LOL

i am sure you are not kidding, just looks funny ..

are there any ill effects after removing this ?? and will is be re-installed at the next OS update ??

thx guys, this is great info ..
Old 12th July 2017
  #1127
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Joe Porto's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimmyMac View Post
Check Activity Monitor for "gamed"
I believe that started with Sierra. It is activated when you sign in to iCloud. You can go to settings>internet accounts and turn off or remove Game Center. But yes, it activates by default with your Apple ID.
Old 12th July 2017
  #1128
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Porto View Post
I believe that started with Sierra. It is activated when you sign in to iCloud. You can go to settings>internet accounts and turn off or remove Game Center. But yes, it activates by default with your Apple ID.
I recall first seeing this back on Mavericks and at the time i had to launchd remove the deamon. Nice to see they added option to turn off.
Old 12th July 2017
  #1129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Interesting to see what you chose to respond to.....
And syncing photos was a very strange example, considering Microsoft publish OneDrive for all platforms, allowing photos and videos taken on stratology's Windows, iOS or Android device to magically pop into his Win10 Photos app for image enhancement/editing on his PC when he eventually sees the light.
Old 12th July 2017
  #1130
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
Sure, running a background process at 0% CPU that uses 8MB RAM is insane. How could they.
Not on my machine. It was chewing up cpu and network. That's how I discovered it. I certainly didn't need the OS context switching to this process regularly while I'm busy in a tracking session.
Old 12th July 2017
  #1131
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Joe Porto's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimmyMac View Post
I recall first seeing this back on Mavericks and at the time i had to launchd remove the deamon. Nice to see they added option to turn off.
I just looked on my office El Capitan Mac Pro. gamed is running in the background, but I see no indication of GameCenter in apps, or settings....So I guess at least they put it out in the open with Sierra.

That said, I have been using Macs for audio since 2008 and never did any optimization other than some Power Management settings. Always run great.

I also have friends who run Windows DAWS who have done no optimization and they too have no issues.

I think the whole computer optimization thing is a holdover from the days when you needed to squeeze the life out of your processors to get an extra plugins or whatever. These days, it's not so much a concern unless you are running huge projects, or trying to squeeze maximum frame rates for games.
Old 12th July 2017
  #1132
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stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Porto View Post
That said, I have been using Macs for audio since 2008 and never did any optimization other than some Power Management settings. Always run great.
Doing nothing is exactly the right thing to do. macOS manages processes, so if resources are required for foreground tasks, like recording, they're automatically allocated. No need to manually mess with anything.
Old 12th July 2017
  #1133
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stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Interesting to see what you chose to respond to.....
I admit, I was completely unaware that Windows phones still exist. They're still alive, and hold a staggering 1.6% of the market. Ahead of Blackberry, with 0.6%.
Old 12th July 2017
  #1134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post

Yes, the components aren't matched

A good effort, but you're cheating here. As a DAW user (Ableton Live) I want as many cores i can get my hands on.

Your approach is making sense, but you should attempt to match both graphics resolutions, display sizes (if one is involved in the comparison), disk speed and processor as well as ports. Chances are you'd still be able to put together an attractive package, so I'm surprised you didn¨t try this.

Last edited by Mikael B; 12th July 2017 at 09:44 PM..
Old 12th July 2017
  #1135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
I admit, I was completely unaware that Windows phones still exist. They're still alive, and hold a staggering 1.6% of the market. Ahead of Blackberry, with 0.6%.
And? You know you could have just acknowledged that what I and others said was correct, and what you said initially - or implied - was not correct.
Old 12th July 2017
  #1136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimmyMac View Post
Also it would be cool for Apple to have a Pro version of their OS that doesn't get major release upgrade every year. And the ability for better admin controls over Agents/Daemon. For instance Game Center is running in background by default! Crazy!

Yeah, but it's very possible to stay on an older macOS version if you want to. Just don¨t use the music machine for internet and you'll be fine and don't upgrade certain hardware.

For controlling launch agents you can use tools like Lingon. It would be nice to have a tool like this coming with the OS and to be able to build different profiles.
Old 12th July 2017
  #1137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
A good effort, but you're cheating here. As a DAW user (Ableton Live) I want as many cores i can get my hands on.

Your approach is making sense, but you should attempt to match both graphics resolutions, display sizes (if one is involved in the comparison), disk speed and processor as well as ports. Chances are you'd still be able top put together an attractive package, so I'm surprised you didn¨t try this.
I think part of the problem here is that if you are more limited in choices on platform X and end up with a component that is of higher value when you don't actually need or want it then it's a bit disingenuous, or beside the point, to include that in a comparison to Y.

In other words; if a person doesn't care about a 5k display and never ever would pay extra for that feature if s/he had the choice, then a comparison of alternatives should exclude that component or we should allow for a cheaper component with "lesser" spec/quality. That's really the only thing that makes sense practically speaking.

So if the objection is "Yeah, you can put together what amounts to an iMac, but does it have a 5k screen?" then that's just nonsense UNLESS the user(s) actually want or need that quality. The same applies to GPUs.
Old 12th July 2017
  #1138
Tui
Gear Guru
 
Tui's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
For controlling launch agents you can use tools like Lingon.

I like the solitary review by "LauraSJ":

"As a busy mom, I’m always looking for ways to automate any part of my life. Lingon was exactly the app I needed to easily automate the start of my day by opening just the apps I need for work and effeciency. The simple UI is perfect for a beginner like me, and the price is just right for the utility I am getting from it. Excellent choice for time-pressed people who need a quick automation tool."

Yeah, right!
Old 12th July 2017
  #1139
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Joe Porto's Avatar
 

All OSs require some background task processing. That's why most DAWS allow you to specify how many processors to use. It's a good practice to set that parameter to one less than the total processors in your system. At least then you won't get any surprises if the OS decides to do some housekeeping during a session.

Case in point, a buddy on a Win10 quad laptop running Studio One was constantly getting sluggish performance and audio glitches even in modest sized projects. I had him set Studio One to use 3 processors, and he hasn't had an issue since.
Old 12th July 2017
  #1140
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Joe Porto's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
I like the solitary review by "LauraSJ":

"As a busy mom, I’m always looking for ways to automate any part of my life. Lingon was exactly the app I needed to easily automate the start of my day by opening just the apps I need for work and effeciency. The simple UI is perfect for a beginner like me, and the price is just right for the utility I am getting from it. Excellent choice for time-pressed people who need a quick automation tool."

Yeah, right!
She's obviously busy writing reviews for all the time saving stuff that she uses.
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