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Tim Cook on Mac Desktop commitment Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 10th July 2017
  #1051
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
.

When these are 1/3 or less than 1/2 of the price, you can buy two and still save projected time and money. So when an Apple user is searching around for a replacement mid-2014 iMac Retina 27", the PC user could be back up and running within minutes.

.
Looking forward to your link to an all in one 27" iMac clone from a dedicated DAW builder for only "1/3rd or less" than the price of the Apple.
Old 10th July 2017
  #1052
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Well, yes and no.

Yes Apple make general purpose computers that also make very good media computers. The components are "ultracompatible" because the software is tested to them and made to be compatible. Yes, it's the same thing Dell and HP do; which is why models from those companies are also often part of the Pro Tools "qualified computers" lists.

I thought it was generally understood that dedicated DAW builds from specialists weren't THAT much cheaper than off the shelf Macs?

I haven't got time to do detailed research, but I found:

MPS 7K-15

at $2700, versus a roughly equivalent MBP for $3500 over here (when I go through a specialist retailer, I could get about 10% off that too).

Yes - the PC has an internal 1TB audio drive, plus external DVD writer, etc. I'm not denying it's better value. But it's not 1/2 or 1/3 price. I'm sure there are people that offer better deals, and so on. But let's support statements with proof or keep things more general?

a) I think I've just proved that that sort of pricing is slightly fantastical. Maybe you can build your own for 1/2 price.
I just spec'd out a Mac Pro on the Apple store, 6 core, 1 TB SSD, 16GB RAM for £3539...

https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/buy-ma...A&step=config#

Scan sell this 4 core (the processor is pretty much as fast as the MP 6 core), 256GB SSD + 1TB HDD with 16GB for £1099...

https://www.scan.co.uk/products/scan...io-workstation

Yes, the components aren't matched but the low latency performance for audio is bettered. If we really, really wanted the graphics performance of the MP, we could get a £300 graphics card, and we could upgrade the SSD too if we liked to bring it up to 1/2 price with discounts on the Apple side, but the point that some are missing is that just because you need to get things you might not want with Apple doesn't mean you need to do the same with PC.

There's next day delivery from Scan too. You also don't need to buy AppleCare for an extra couple of hundred £s to get phone support or dial in support beyond a short timeframe either.
Old 10th July 2017
  #1053
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
Looking forward to your link to an all in one 27" iMac clone from a dedicated DAW builder for only "1/3rd or less" than the price of the Apple.
If you do, run very fast. Although I think no DAW builder builds anything iMac like as it makes no sense. Tower, 19", laptop, maybe something compact, yes, but iMac no. Certainly not for 1/3rd.


Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
I just spec'd out a Mac Pro on the Apple store, 6 core, 1 TB SSD, 16GB RAM for £3539...

https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/buy-ma...A&step=config#

Scan sell this 4 core (the processor is pretty much as fast as the MP 6 core), 256GB SSD + 1TB HDD with 16GB for £1099...

https://www.scan.co.uk/products/scan...io-workstation

Yes, the components aren't matched but the low latency performance for audio is bettered. If we really, really wanted the graphics performance of the MP, we could get a £300 graphics card, and we could upgrade the SSD too if we liked to bring it up to 1/2 price with discounts on the Apple side, but the point that some are missing is that just because you need to get things you might not want with Apple doesn't mean you need to do the same with PC.

There's next day delivery from Scan too. You also don't need to buy AppleCare for an extra couple of hundred £s to get phone support or dial in support beyond a short timeframe either.
With all respect, you are comparing very different things. Also, the Mac Pro is old, it is 2 generations behind which is silly by itself, but also is not a fair comparison when claiming something else (newer) is faster - current E5 v4's cost as much and are faster as well. Also you are comparing 2 very different platforms - the chipset on the Mac is a server chipset (C602) and it has 2 solid workstation GPU's in it which you cannot simply compare with a $300 gamer card, whether or not is can be used by a DAW.
You are not comparing, you are claiming the other systems makes more sense, which is a different statement and should be judged as such.

I am not going into this discussion. Mac users want Macs, simple as that. Those who switch have different reasons, from my own customer experience (and Mac using friends):
- they don't agree with Apple politics
- they want more power (most of our customers coming from Mac fall in this category)
- they can't afford a new Mac (this would be the group you may reach with your posts)
- they intend to use software which only works on Windows, or works better on Windows
- they want a vendor which handles and supports all hard & software (2nd largest group of our former-mac-user customers)

I probably forgot a few smaller groups but it is the Monday after G20, my weekend was pretty weird...
Old 10th July 2017
  #1054
Gear Addict
 
Aziak's Avatar
Personally, i find all this specs/price/feature comparisons moot. Things are very simple.... it's all about money, you have it or not!
If you have the money, you get the $8000 MacPro or the $10000 HP PC or whatever!
Is there someone who will NOT accept a Mac Pro "trashcan" as a gift, for example??? Or an expensive HP tower machine??? Are you kidding me?
Everything else is just blah blah blah... excuses and arguments of no point IMO.

My 12core/1TB SSD/32Gb Ram MacPro "Trashcan" is the best Mac i had so far. The most silent machine, portable size, weights 5.5Kg ( i can travel with it on a plane if need it) and i love the looks of it. It just works, i paid premium for all this that some people tend to ignore, but it is part of the experience i want to have from a computer. End of story!


Cheers!



p.s. Now, release the Kraken on me!
Old 10th July 2017
  #1055
Tui
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
... it is the Monday after G20, my weekend was pretty weird...
Why, what happened? I watched a video interview with a local guy, he said most "protestors" weren't even German, but Polish, Italian, Greek...
Old 10th July 2017
  #1056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
With all respect, you are comparing very different things. Also, the Mac Pro is old, it is 2 generations behind which is silly by itself, but also is not a fair comparison when claiming something else (newer) is faster - current E5 v4's cost as much and are faster as well. Also you are comparing 2 very different platforms - the chipset on the Mac is a server chipset (C602) and it has 2 solid workstation GPU's in it which you cannot simply compare with a $300 gamer card, whether or not is can be used by a DAW.
You are not comparing, you are claiming the other systems makes more sense, which is a different statement and should be judged as such.
I somewhat agree, although there's no benefit to using expensive Xeons and slower RAM in DAWs. The chips are made from the same batches that the other processors are taken from after all and I've never heard of a non-overclocked processor go bad in recent times. Also for performance, non-slow clocked, non-ECC RAM is better.

As for 4 year old workstation GPUs vs modern, consumer ones - I don't know. From benchmarks I see that modern ones vastly outperform the 2013 MP options. For those who require specialist workstation GPU features, it's not a good comparison. But the vast majority of people don't.

So in the absence of a huge range of Apple desktops to choose from I need to choose the MP and compare it to a pro audio desktop that has similar or better performance. Apple could put a Fabergé egg in the next revision of the MP too, but matching that wouldn't benefit performance either.

For the best, low latency performance a MP is not the best choice, so why match it at all?
Old 10th July 2017
  #1057
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stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
I do see what you are saying, but I disagree that Apple do the same thing as dedicated DAW builders do, Apple are making general purpose computers.
Differentiating between 'general purpose computers' and DAW computers??

Computers are not typewriters. They were never intended as single function devices. The whole purpose of a computer is that it is not a single function device.


Babysitting a computer that is not capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time to a point where it is capable of doing one task (running a DAW) reliably says more about the weakness of the platform than anything else.


A computer that works as designed - as a multi function device - means that it can run a DAW without compromises, while doing all kinds of other things reliably, without compromise, as well. Why would anyone expect less from a computer??
Old 10th July 2017
  #1058
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lowkey's Avatar
 

What??
So now you're telling me there is no 4.2GHz i7 with 8GB GPU and 27" 5k monitor for $825 from a DAW maker??
You disappoint me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
I somewhat agree, although there's no benefit to using expensive Xeons and slower RAM in DAWs. The chips are made from the same batches that the other processors are taken from after all and I've never heard of a non-overclocked processor go bad in recent times. Also for performance, non-slow clocked, non-ECC RAM is better.

As for 4 year old workstation GPUs vs modern, consumer ones - I don't know. From benchmarks I see that modern ones vastly outperform the 2013 MP options. For those who require specialist workstation GPU features, it's not a good comparison. But the vast majority of people don't.

So in the absence of a huge range of Apple desktops to choose from I need to choose the MP and compare it to a pro audio desktop that has similar or better performance. Apple could put a Fabergé egg in the next revision of the MP too, but matching that wouldn't benefit performance either.

For the best, low latency performance a MP is not the best choice, so why match it at all?
Old 10th July 2017
  #1059
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
I just spec'd out a Mac Pro on the Apple store, 6 core, 1 TB SSD, 16GB RAM for £3539...

https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/buy-ma...A&step=config#

Scan sell this 4 core (the processor is pretty much as fast as the MP 6 core), 256GB SSD + 1TB HDD with 16GB for £1099...

https://www.scan.co.uk/products/scan...io-workstation

Yes, the components aren't matched but the low latency performance for audio is bettered. If we really, really wanted the graphics performance of the MP, we could get a £300 graphics card, and we could upgrade the SSD too if we liked to bring it up to 1/2 price with discounts on the Apple side, but the point that some are missing is that just because you need to get things you might not want with Apple doesn't mean you need to do the same with PC.

There's next day delivery from Scan too. You also don't need to buy AppleCare for an extra couple of hundred £s to get phone support or dial in support beyond a short timeframe either.
As I said, I haven't got time to pick holes, and that does look like a good deal.

a few points:

- you might have a point with the Mac Pro, but laptops/iMacs are a different situation, and much closer. Which was MY point (and I guess more on topic for this thread).

- people in the market for a Mac Pro are in the market for a powerful Apple machine, not a generic black box running Windows - of course there IS a markup and it's unlikely to affect most of us, because we're not in the market for it. Where we ARE in the market - laptops etc - it's much closer as I've pointed out.

- over here, 256GB to 1TB SSD adds $1k to the price. I don't know what the Scan upgrade fee is, but it's going to be a few hundred quid at least.

- I can't comment on the processor equivalence, but you'd need to test side by side on the most popular audio apps to validate your claims. Like for like is really the only way to compare, or via testing - saying "I didn't want that anyway" doesn't negate the value of something.

- I'm not a massive fan of the trash can form factor, but could they not have found a prettier case?! It would hurt spending a lot of money on something that aesthetically meh.

- still doesn't invalidate the point I made earlier - no-one is going to buy 2 of these just cos they're so cheap, "a grand don't come for free" (to quote The Streets!), so the "spare rig" scenario won't apply in anything but the biggest setups.

It's certainly a fair point that if you need a desktop machine, better value options than the Mac Pro abound, if you're prepared to go Windows.

OR - you do what I do, get a dock and simply connect up when you need the screen/keyboard/mouse setup at home. 2 cables and I've got a desktop machine...
Old 10th July 2017
  #1060
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
Why, what happened? I watched a video interview with a local guy, he said most "protestors" weren't even German, but Polish, Italian, Greek...
Well, we're not allowed to discuss politics here, but it was a major clusterf**k and it was like a civil war right next door. From Thursday until Sunday morning I had choppers above my house non stop which was the least of problems that occurred the last few days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
I somewhat agree, although there's no benefit to using expensive Xeons and slower RAM in DAWs. The chips are made from the same batches that the other processors are taken from after all and I've never heard of a non-overclocked processor go bad in recent times. Also for performance, non-slow clocked, non-ECC RAM is better.
It depends: while it might be different for Apple, the industry boards we use ONLY accept Xeons, which makes it a rock solid reliable platform with an extremely low RMA rate.
As I have posted several times here, there is NO difference for DAW use regarding RAM speed. You can put a single channel 1033MHz in your 6850X (if such a thing would be compatible) and you will not notice a single ms or instance difference in sample loading or plugin/voice performance as opposed to using 3000+ MHz quad channel RAM.
Old 10th July 2017
  #1061
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
As I said, I haven't got time to pick holes, and that does look like a good deal.

a few points:

- you might have a point with the Mac Pro, but laptops/iMacs are a different situation, and much closer. Which was MY point (and I guess more on topic for this thread).
I disagree. With MBPs, the components are soldered onto the mobo these days so you need to aim as high as your predicted needs will be over the next few years. With PC laptops you can aim low and upgrade RAM and SSD yourself, either immediately or later. With my laptop, the equivalent MBP was about 3x the price, including AppleCare vs my warranty.

With iMacs, the 5k screen and all-in-one form factor aren't things that most people would consider if it wasn't for the limited range of options and budgets Mac users have. Are a majority of Mac Pro users buying 5K screens? No. 5K hoovers performance from the rest of the machine with 2D graphics, which are generally only hardware accelerated at the end point where the drawn stuff is transferred to the graphics card. Also at least with a laptop in clamshell mode you can tuck it away somewhere instead of having the fans a few inches from your ears.
Quote:
- people in the market for a Mac Pro are in the market for a powerful Apple machine, not a generic black box running Windows - of course there IS a markup and it's unlikely to affect most of us, because we're not in the market for it. Where we ARE in the market - laptops etc - it's much closer as I've pointed out.

- over here, 256GB to 1TB SSD adds $1k to the price. I don't know what the Scan upgrade fee is, but it's going to be a few hundred quid at least.
It will be, but that's why I said that it would take it to around 1/2 price. Scan provide a tailored pro audio service and highly optimised PCs, so perhaps it would be better comparing to an off the shelf PC so that the Apple performance isn't too terrible by comparison.

Here's an i7-7700, 16GB for £657 for example. Stick £300 on top for a 4K monitor and a few extra shekels for a hybrid drive and you have something with equivalent power of £2600 iMac for around £1000.

I'd prefer to spend a smidge extra and get the Scan one though. Again, between 1/3 and 1/2 price. The more you spec out a Mac, the greater the difference in price.
Quote:
- I can't comment on the processor equivalence, but you'd need to test side by side on the most popular audio apps to validate your claims. Like for like is really the only way to compare, or via testing - saying "I didn't want that anyway" doesn't negate the value of something.
Looking at maths orientated benchmarks gives you a fairly accurate estimate, especially between similar processors.
Quote:
- I'm not a massive fan of the trash can form factor, but could they not have found a prettier case?! It would hurt spending a lot of money on something that aesthetically meh.

- still doesn't invalidate the point I made earlier - no-one is going to buy 2 of these just cos they're so cheap, "a grand don't come for free" (to quote The Streets!), so the "spare rig" scenario won't apply in anything but the biggest setups.

It's certainly a fair point that if you need a desktop machine, better value options than the Mac Pro abound, if you're prepared to go Windows.

OR - you do what I do, get a dock and simply connect up when you need the screen/keyboard/mouse setup at home. 2 cables and I've got a desktop machine...
Yes, I agree with all that. The point is though that if you want a redundant backup you can do it for less than the cost of one Mac.
Old 10th July 2017
  #1062
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zephonic's Avatar
I'm shocked, I tell ya!

PC's are cheaper than Macs?!? Shocking, Sir, just shocking!
Old 10th July 2017
  #1063
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
As I have posted several times here, there is NO difference for DAW use regarding RAM speed. You can put a single channel 1033MHz in your 6850X (if such a thing would be compatible) and you will not notice a single ms or instance difference in sample loading or plugin/voice performance as opposed to using 3000+ MHz quad channel RAM.
There's RAM speed + ECC though. Also memory intensive plugins in non-artificial situations where the cache is churned a lot. In artificial projects where all the important stuff gets cached, I can see why memory speed wouldn't make much of a measurable difference.
Old 10th July 2017
  #1064
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zephonic View Post
I'm shocked, I tell ya!

PC's are cheaper than Macs?!? Shocking, Sir, just shocking!
There appears to be disagreement as to how much cheaper though. When the low clocked iMac Pro 18 cores come out it'll be interesting to compare prices with a Threadripper.
Old 10th July 2017
  #1065
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
With iMacs, the 5k screen and all-in-one form factor aren't things that most people would consider if it wasn't for the limited range of options and budgets Mac users have. Are a majority of Mac Pro users buying 5K screens? No. 5K hoovers performance from the rest of the machine with 2D graphics, which are generally only hardware accelerated at the end point where the drawn stuff is transferred to the graphics card. Also at least with a laptop in clamshell mode you can tuck it away somewhere instead of having the fans a few inches from your ears.
I'm not a fan of the iMac "all-in-one" form factor and I doubt anyone is going to accuse me of being an Apple fanboy but I don't really understand why one would be against more screen resolution for DAW work. In practical terms it means more screen real-estate so you can have more mixer channels/piano rolls/plugins/whatever on your screen at the same time. I think that is great!

As for the load caused by higher resolution screens: Just as with anything else in audio, get the most powerful system you can afford. More power just makes life easier when working with DAWs.

Alistair
Old 10th July 2017
  #1066
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
I'm not a fan of the iMac "all-in-one" form factor and I doubt anyone is going to accuse me of being an Apple fanboy but I don't really understand why one would be against more screen resolution for DAW work. In practical terms it means more screen real-estate so you can have more mixer channels/piano rolls/plugins/whatever on your screen at the same time. I think that is great!

As for the load caused by higher resolution screens: Just as with anything else in audio, get the most powerful system you can afford. More power just makes life easier when working with DAWs.
Yes, more is usually better but on 27" displays or less you're not going to get more useable real estate from going 5K vs 4K, unless you have a magnifying glass handy. There are around 70% more pixels to write and push around for what is no benefit, apart from definitely not being able to see any pixels if you have Superman eyesight. I am sure many Mac users would agree, if there was a 4K option for iMacs.
Old 10th July 2017
  #1067
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zephonic's Avatar
There is a 4K option for iMacs, it's the 21.5"

https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/i.../A&step=config
Old 10th July 2017
  #1068
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
Yes, more is usually better but on 27" displays or less you're not going to get more useable real estate from going 5K vs 4K, unless you have a magnifying glass handy. There are around 70% more pixels to write and push around for what is no benefit,
Either there is no benefit, or there is 70% (number not checked) more screen real estate available. You have to pick one. As someone that works with 3 screens (200% more pixels than a single screen) I don't see extra graphic load as any kind of real issue.

As for the magnifying glass, I haven't worked with a 5K screen but I don't think one should make generalisations about people's eye sights. The number of times people have asked me "You can read that ?!?"... Yes I can or I wouldn't be working the way I do would I? My point? Everyone has different eye sight "resolution".

Anyway, I think the fact that the screen is 5K (with a 4K option) is not really a strong argument against these designs. Not that they are what I would use but I don't agree with this particular point.

Anyway, never mind me, carry on!

Alistair
Old 10th July 2017
  #1069
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lowkey's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
.


Here's an i7-7700, 16GB for £657 for example. Stick £300 on top for a 4K monitor and a few extra shekels for a hybrid drive and you have something with equivalent power of £2600 iMac for around £1000.

I'd prefer to spend a smidge extra and get the Scan one though. Again, between 1/3 and 1/2 price. The more you spec out a Mac, the greater the difference in price.

Looking at maths orientated benchmarks gives you a fairly accurate estimate, especially between similar processors.

Yes, I agree with all that. The point is though that if you want a redundant backup you can do it for less than the cost of one Mac.
That's not a link to a DAW manufacturers computer. It's a generic black box. Where's the 27" 5k monitor? The monitor alone will set you back more than that computer.

120gb drive. No thunderbolt or usbc. No OS.

All you've done is linked to a cheap no name black box that is no equivalent. Kinda disproving your own point mate. Where's your link to the Scan model with 5k monitor?
Old 10th July 2017
  #1070
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Either there is no benefit, or there is 70% (number not checked) more screen real estate available. You have to pick one. As someone that works with 3 screens (200% more pixels than a single screen) I don't see extra graphic load as any kind of real issue.
Yeah, I meant for the size of screen with 4K vs 5K. The extra pixels mean shrinking even further or rendering a bit clearer. I do take your point about eyesight though. But you can have 7 FHD screens for every one 5k, or one 4k and 3 FHD screens in terms of matching pixels.

@Zaphonic: I meant a choice of resolution at the same screen size, a 5K and 4K option on the 27". If there was a 4K option that was £500 cheaper, how many people would pat the 5K premium. My bet would be a minority.
Old 11th July 2017
  #1071
Gear Head
 

I don't see the point of an iMac Pro unless you upgrade your monitor every three to five years. Who upgrades monitors that often? I got 12 years out of my last monitor.
I would hope Apple goes back to a full size tower for their next Mac Pro so everything can be self contained and easily upgradable. I'm tired of the web of cables and need for external usb hubs sprouting out of my trash can mac.
Also it would be cool for Apple to have a Pro version of their OS that doesn't get major release upgrade every year. And the ability for better admin controls over Agents/Daemon. For instance Game Center is running in background by default! Crazy!
Old 11th July 2017
  #1072
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
That's not a link to a DAW manufacturers computer. It's a generic black box. Where's the 27" 5k monitor? The monitor alone will set you back more than that computer.

120gb drive. No thunderbolt or usbc. No OS.

All you've done is linked to a cheap no name black box that is no equivalent. Kinda disproving your own point mate. Where's your link to the Scan model with 5k monitor?
Apple aren't a DAW manufacturer, my point there was linking to some other general purpose computer assembler so that we are not comparing a high octane expertly built DAW PC that would run rings around a generic Apple living room accessory at low latencies. I did say "Stick £300 on top for a 4K monitor and a few extra shekels for a hybrid drive". I missed out buying Windows on ebay for buttons, apologies about that. And a graphics card. You need to add PCIe slots and extra hard drive bays to the iMac too.

But I'll happily concede that the 5K monitor is something that's value in the iMac if you need it. If you'd rather have 1 or even 2 x 4K monitors or 7 FHD monitors then not so much.

Where are the side by side comparisons of the 5K vs 4K monitors for DAW work on 27" screens anyway? I'd love to see them.
Old 11th July 2017
  #1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
I disagree. With MBPs, the components are soldered onto the mobo these days so you need to aim as high as your predicted needs will be over the next few years. With PC laptops you can aim low and upgrade RAM and SSD yourself, either immediately or later. With my laptop, the equivalent MBP was about 3x the price, including AppleCare vs my warranty.
You're kind of moving the goalposts now. I'm not saying that there aren't advantages to non-Mac laptops, nor that I agree with the options for current macs is perfect. I'm saying the list of approved PT supported PC laptops is small, whereas it encompasses the entire Mac laptop range.


Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
It will be, but that's why I said that it would take it to around 1/2 price. Scan provide a tailored pro audio service and highly optimised PCs, so perhaps it would be better comparing to an off the shelf PC so that the Apple performance isn't too terrible by comparison.
These PCs must be really something..I'm yet to even think about taxing our Mac Pro, and I'd wager I run bigger sessions than most, even


Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
Here's an i7-7700, 16GB for £657 for example. Stick £300 on top for a 4K monitor and a few extra shekels for a hybrid drive and you have something with equivalent power of £2600 iMac for around £1000.

I'd prefer to spend a smidge extra and get the Scan one though. Again, between 1/3 and 1/2 price. The more you spec out a Mac, the greater the difference in price.
As has been pointed out, that's far from the out of the box system a Mac purchase gets you. I doubt that one is PT approved or supplier guaranteed, which is what we're talking about. A PC that *should* work is far from the same thing as the Scan system you previously linked. Let's stay comparing like for like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
Looking at maths orientated benchmarks gives you a fairly accurate estimate, especially between similar processors.
I'd rather see real-world stress-test stats.


Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
Yes, I agree with all that. The point is though that if you want a redundant backup you can do it for less than the cost of one Mac.
Maybe. I'm not suggesting they can't. But people DON'T - they'll keep the money in their back pocket (sensibly if you ask me). Then if there's a failure - the argument is how quickly and easily you can get back up and running.

If my Mac Pro failed, I *should* be able to disconnect the TB cable, hook up my laptop and carry on. Or any recent Mac. That at least is one advantage of the chassis approach! Total downtime would be about 10mins - I could even carry on using the same drives. You just wouldn't get the same unified solution unless (as you say) you bought redundant systems, or bought a specific audio laptop for a general purpose PC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimmyMac View Post
I would hope Apple goes back to a full size tower for their next Mac Pro so everything can be self contained and easily upgradable. I'm tired of the web of cables and need for external usb hubs sprouting out of my trash can mac.
Also it would be cool for Apple to have a Pro version of their OS that doesn't get major release upgrade every year. And the ability for better admin controls over Agents/Daemon. For instance Game Center is running in background by default! Crazy!
We have the sonnet rackmount chassis, with 3 drive bays. It's great - you lose a PCIe slot compared to the tower, but it's much tidier than non-racking. My gripe is the cost!
Old 11th July 2017
  #1074
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lowkey's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
Apple aren't a DAW manufacturer, my point there was linking to some other general purpose computer assembler so that we are not comparing a high octane expertly built DAW PC that would run rings around a generic Apple living room accessory at low latencies. I did say "Stick £300 on top for a 4K monitor and a few extra shekels for a hybrid drive". I missed out buying Windows on ebay for buttons, apologies about that. And a graphics card. You need to add PCIe slots and extra hard drive bays to the iMac too.

But I'll happily concede that the 5K monitor is something that's value in the iMac if you need it. If you'd rather have 1 or even 2 x 4K monitors or 7 FHD monitors then not so much.

Where are the side by side comparisons of the 5K vs 4K monitors for DAW work on 27" screens anyway? I'd love to see them.
And you keep avoiding answering the question.

YOU said we could buy a computer like the Apple from a DAW manufacturer [not a no name brand] for 1/3rd of the price of the Apple.

Like I said, show me the i7 7700k, with 8GB GPU and 5k 27" monitor for $825 from a DAW manufacturer.

If you can't, its clear you're simply full of BS.
Old 11th July 2017
  #1075
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
And you keep avoiding answering the question.

YOU said we could buy a computer like the Apple from a DAW manufacturer [not a no name brand] for 1/3rd of the price of the Apple.

Like I said, show me the i7 7700k, with 8GB GPU and 5k 27" monitor for $825 from a DAW manufacturer.

If you can't, its clear you're simply full of BS.
Well said

about tine some of the horse sh1t that gets spewed by the pc v mac brigade needs to be called out
Old 11th July 2017
  #1076
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
And you keep avoiding answering the question.

YOU said we could buy a computer like the Apple from a DAW manufacturer [not a no name brand] for 1/3rd of the price of the Apple.
I don't recall limiting the options of matching Apple hardware with specialist DAW builders, I did show a price from a DAW builder though. Please provide a full quote.
Quote:
Like I said, show me the i7 7700k, with 8GB GPU and 5k 27" monitor for $825 from a DAW manufacturer.

If you can't, its clear you're simply full of BS.
No, that would just mean you can't read, are fixating on 1/3 of the price instead of 1/2, are ignoring my concession about 5K screens - which almost nobody apart from some iMac users find necessary and which aren't good for performance - or you're just being awkward. Apple also isn't a DAW manufacturer, which is why the low latency performance of PCs - and in particular specialist DAWs - is so much better. It's not just DAWs, it's graphics/gaming too... Macs generally don't perform as well, so matching processors and graphics cards is an exercise in futility.
Old 11th July 2017
  #1077
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lowkey's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
I don't recall limiting the options of matching Apple hardware with specialist DAW builders, I did show a price from a DAW builder though. Please provide a full quote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
Dedicated DAW builders are building systems with a known, ultra-compatible list of components, with online, expert support, that perform better than Apple hardware for a fraction of the cost - for non-base models.

When these are 1/3 or less than 1/2 of the price, you can buy two and still save projected time and money. So when an Apple user is searching around for a replacement mid-2014 iMac Retina 27", the PC user could be back up and running within minutes.
Dedicated DAW builders selling systems for 1/3rd or less than 1/2 the price of an iMac Retina 27"???

So i showed you the quote. Now you show me the link. i7 7700k 8GB GPU, 5k 27" monitor. The Apple is $2499. Whats your PC from a "Dedicated DAW builder with online, expert support" cost?

Or will we just get more excuses for why you can't prove your own point?

I'm even happy to help you out...
a 27" stand alone P3 5k monitor is $1299... That leaves you less than zero for the computer to come in under 1/2 price
https://www.apple.com/shop/product/H...4059691f1a7bf5

Last edited by lowkey; 11th July 2017 at 12:14 PM..
Old 11th July 2017
  #1078
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
Dedicated DAW builders selling systems for 1/3rd or less than 1/2 the price of an iMac Retina 27"???

So i showed you the quote. Now you show me the link. i7 7700k 8GB GPU, 5k 27" monitor. The Apple is $2499. Whats your PC from a "Dedicated DAW builder with online, expert support" cost?

Or will we just get more excuses for why you can't prove your own point?

I'm even happy to help you out...
a 27" stand alone P3 5k monitor is $1299... That leaves you less than zero for the computer to come in under 1/2 price
https://www.apple.com/shop/product/H...4059691f1a7bf5
So you were fixating on the 1/3 then. And the 5K monitor.

I've already said multiple times that the 5K option is good value if you really, really need it. If you go 4K you can add £300 on top of the Scan price for a 4K monitor, but that's 16GB. Over here an iMac with the fast i7 and 16GB is £2600. So that's pretty much 1/2 price, but with a 4K monitor instead of a 5K.

So you continue to gleefully ignore the point that no audio person in their right mind really gives a crap about 5K monitors enough to buy them in numbers when they are not bundled with a piece of living room furniture.
Old 11th July 2017
  #1079
Lives for gear
 
lowkey's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain caveman View Post
So you were fixating on the 1/3 then. And the 5K monitor.

I've already said multiple times that the 5K option is good value if you really, really need it. If you go 4K you can add £300 on top of the Scan price for a 4K monitor, but that's 16GB. Over here an iMac with the fast i7 and 16GB is £2600. So that's pretty much 1/2 price, but with a 4K monitor instead of a 5K.

So you continue to gleefully ignore the point that no audio person in their right mind really gives a crap about 5K monitors enough to buy them in numbers when they are not bundled with a piece of living room furniture.
links or heresay?
Old 11th July 2017
  #1080
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
links or heresay?
Don't have time at the moment, will get back later after you concede that a majority of deep pocketed Mac Pro users don't bother buying 5K monitors because they are pointless for most audio purposes.
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