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Tim Cook on Mac Desktop commitment Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 28th June 2017
  #991
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
You mentioned certain interfaces are compatible. Which ones? RME?
Class compliant USB interfaces work, as well as firewire interfaces from what I hear. This is I/O, without access to fancy features that require software interfaces and custom drivers.

The RTL (inc DA/AD) of my interface in class compliant mode on Linux is not as good as with ASIO on Windows, but it's close (lowest is 1.1ms ASIO vs 2.4ms CC/ALSA). Complaining about ~1ms difference is splitting hairs though.
Old 28th June 2017
  #992
Tui
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Thanks for the replies. Interesting stuff.

If Linux - ever - becomes viable for audio, I'll be all over it.
Old 29th June 2017
  #993
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
What Mac Pros? If you're talking about in 2013 I think you're mistaken. It wasn't possible to build your own Hackintosh with a price tag significantly lower than what Apple asked for their models back then, when I made some calculations in december 2013.
I guess they mean buying desktop components with cheapest models. That combined with lack of assembly/R&D/manhours/support/service costs (ignoring their own building time), I guess it is fair to say you can reach 50%.
Old 29th June 2017
  #994
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
I guess they mean buying desktop components with cheapest models. That combined with lack of assembly/R&D/manhours/support/service costs (ignoring their own building time), I guess it is fair to say you can reach 50%.
No, it's not fair, nor is it a useful way to argue. The main point is that, if you're going to whine about "Apple taxes", then have the honesty to compare the same components or those that are as close as possible. In 2013, unless you could get components at other prices than the cheapest one could find, then Mac Pro was an attractive package, if those were what you wanted. Then with time the attraction lessened as Apple refused to update the hardware.

In the coming Mac Pros, the reasoning must be the same: that you look at what it would cost you to build the machine yourself and weigh that against Apple price points. If you don't want their machines, then you buy something else with all that this entails. Apple should make sure they stay attractive and competitive this time.

I don't mind paying a little more for the quality I feel Apple bring with their machines, but it need to be reasonable, at least when calculating TOC (Total Ownership Costs) over, say 3-5 years.
Old 30th June 2017
  #995
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
I guess they mean buying desktop components with cheapest models. That combined with lack of assembly/R&D/manhours/support/service costs (ignoring their own building time), I guess it is fair to say you can reach 50%.
SSL G Series Compressor $4395 at Sweetwater.
Serpent Audio SSL clone kit $275+case.
Old 30th June 2017
  #996
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
SSL G Series Compressor $4395 at Sweetwater.
Serpent Audio SSL clone kit $275+case.
I'm sure if you purchased the bare circuit boards, caps, resistors and ICs, and assembled the MB, graphics card, memory modules, etc. yourself, you could save a whole lot more than 50%. It would probably be obsolete before you finished it, but I guess it is an option.
Old 30th June 2017
  #997
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
No, it's not fair, nor is it a useful way to argue. The main point is that, if you're going to whine about "Apple taxes", then have the honesty to compare the same components or those that are as close as possible. In 2013, unless you could get components at other prices than the cheapest one could find, then Mac Pro was an attractive package, if those were what you wanted. Then with time the attraction lessened as Apple refused to update the hardware.
I'm not playing the devil's advocate here, what I am saying is that some people want to use OSX but don't want the Apple hardware because they think it is too expensive. If they then build a system with cheaper components and get to half the price *for the same power*, that is what they are after.
Our hexacores were a similar price compared to the 2013 nMP hexacore, you will not hear me about fair comparisons. We only use industry/workstation components, not gaming/desktop products either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
SSL G Series Compressor $4395 at Sweetwater.
Serpent Audio SSL clone kit $275+case.
That underlines my explanation in an extreme way. Do you want the real thing or are you fine with a clone for a lot less? IMO it is both subjective and a budget question.
Old 30th June 2017
  #998
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"The Real Thing" is however a bit of smoke and mirrors given Apple doesn't make the computer hardware itself. They don't make the CPU, they don't make the motherboard, they don't make the ram, they don't make the drives, they don't make the power supply. They make the case that encloses it and in some examples they make the cooling. They are basically a reseller like all the other brand names. They pick third party components to a specific price point and design a case around them. Sometimes some components are made to their specs but it's nothing that you can't find elsewhere perhaps in a slightly different configuration. Thus the "Real Thing" is just picking parts, the same as a DIY'er would do. If someone want's to go down that road and doesn't want to invest time to learn / experiment then for an Apple build one simply has to go to one of the Hackintosh sites and copy exactly one of their proven builds (thus saving money). That subject has been covered to death though so if interested hit search. Apple basically designs cases and an OS for computers. You can buy the OS, assemble third party components in a case of your choice, and mostly have the "Real Thing". Given computers will likely be in a machine room for a better studio (out of sight of the clients), how would anyone be able to tell? Having an "Apple" doen't bring people into a studio, it's like what mic cord you use, the client is more concerned about so many other things.

We are still on tangents though which leads us back to . . . will a new workstation Apple product have PCIe slots for both true pro video and pro audio usage? If not I predict more abandonment for PC and Hackintosh.
Old 30th June 2017
  #999
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassmankr View Post
"The Real Thing" is however a bit of smoke and mirrors given Apple doesn't make the computer hardware itself.
Yeah, because all the other makers do? There's no design anywhere in an Apple computer? That's what you're trying to imply, isn't it? That's quite ridiculous actually.

Apple Computers are about tying together hardware and software. Do all designs turn out great? Of course not, but some do. Apple is competing more with itself than with other makers and very little with us Hackintosh builders.

The same approach I suggested above still applies. Compare component by component and not your own design and component picks to Apple's design when it comes to price. Because that's kinda pointless. The only big question is if you like their current computer designs or not. That one can build a cheaper machine with other components is another discussion.

If one prefer one's own computer design, that's great. Other people may be more interested in making music and actually using their gear for music rather than being into saving a few dollars. Total Ownership Costs, build time and support time are also vital as is second hand value and the little down time one should get from Apple machines. Add all that together and your own build might not be as economical as you tell yourself. And I say this being a Hackintosh fan myself, just to make that clear.

It doesn't matter if you and I can copy a hackintosh recipe with success or do our own, because not everyone even has the time to do that. I know so many for which this is not even an option.

Last edited by Mikael B; 1st July 2017 at 01:45 PM..
Old 30th June 2017
  #1000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassmankr View Post

We are still on tangents though which leads us back to . . . will a new workstation Apple product have PCIe slots for both true pro video and pro audio usage? If not I predict more abandonment for PC and Hackintosh.
I hope you have made your view on what you want known to Apple? I have.
Old 30th June 2017
  #1001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
SSL G Series Compressor $4395 at Sweetwater.
Serpent Audio SSL clone kit $275+case.
BTW, what is the area at Gearslutz for building your own (non-computer) hardware?
Old 1st July 2017
  #1002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
BTW, what is the area at Gearslutz for building your own (non-computer) hardware?
I'd be perfectly happy if all DIY computer comments could be kept over in Geekslutz rather than derailing threads like this.

Future IMac Pro thread:- "I could build one cheaper myself"
Every Mac Pro thread:- "I could build one cheaper myself"

Go tell the people in geekslutz who may actually be interested in how you spend your valuable time to save money...
Old 1st July 2017
  #1003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassmankr View Post
They are basically a reseller like all the other brand names.
That's wishful thinking.

The vast majority of the products Apple sell have A-series CPUs (A8, A9, A10). Which non-Apple devices have those? Where can I buy them off the shelf? Where do I get the same proprietary SSD controllers as the MBPs? The Secure Enclaves for the fingerprint sensors? The touch strips for the MBPs? Who can build me a case with microscopic holes for the sleep light, only visible when the light is on?


I wouldn't think close integration of hardware and software is a concept that's terribly difficult to grasp, but the I-build-my-own-PC-for-like-totally-cheap crowd that shows up in every single Apple thread will never, ever get it.
Old 1st July 2017
  #1004
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
SSL G Series Compressor $4395 at Sweetwater.
Serpent Audio SSL clone kit $275+case.
That is in no way "like for like" comparison. It's not relevant. You can put a body shell on a fast chassis and call it a Ferrari "clone" but that doesn't mean you've saved $200k and got the same thing.

Running a well built Hack, or even a PC, gets you the same thing.
Old 1st July 2017
  #1005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
That is in no way "like for like" comparison. It's not relevant. You can put a body shell on a fast chassis and call it a Ferrari "clone" but that doesn't mean you've saved $200k and got the same thing.

Running a well built Hack, or even a PC, gets you the same thing.
Take it to Geekslutz where you can celebrate your awesome $500 savings
Old 1st July 2017
  #1006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
I'd be perfectly happy if all DIY computer comments could be kept over in Geekslutz rather than derailing threads like this.

Future IMac Pro thread:- "I could build one cheaper myself"
Every Mac Pro thread:- "I could build one cheaper myself"

Go tell the people in geekslutz who may actually be interested in how you spend your valuable time to save money...
Yeah, I felt something similar as you which was why I asked for a specific area of Gearslutz to contain these types of discussions, specifically to not derail threads that are really about something else. It was not clear to me you hinted at a specific area, but you did, Geekslutz. That wasn't obvious to me anyway,

That said, discussing computer builds must be within the topic of Music Computers, no? I'd agree those should be in their own threads.
Old 1st July 2017
  #1007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Running a well built Hack, or even a PC, gets you the same thing.
No it doesn't. It's not the same thing because a product like a branded computer is something more than the sum of its hardware parts. A new computer is a complete service if bought from the right place. While you can get similar services also for your own build, it's something you need to handle yourself hands-on, which may be preferable to you, but at the same time not be preferred by others.

I handle things hands-on, but I have clients that pay me because they don't want to, don't have the time and they make more money anyway doing what they do even as they're paying me.
Old 1st July 2017
  #1008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
No it doesn't. It's not the same thing because a product like a branded computer is something more than the sum of its hardware parts. A new computer is a complete service if bought from the right place. While you can get similar services also for your own build, it's something you need to handle yourself hands-on, which may be preferable to you, but at the same time not be preferred by others.

I handle things hands-on, but I have clients that pay me because they don't want to, don't have the time and they make more money anyway doing what they do even as they're paying me.
I'm sorry - you misunderstand me.

I'm saying that the SSL clone isn't in any way an SSL - it's a copy with no guarantee to sound anything like the original, even if it looks a bit similar. It MAY of course sound nearly identical, but it's not like buying the same product with a different badge.

I'm not at all on the side of building Hacks, but my point is the hypothetically perfect Hack runs OSX with zero change in function to a "real" mac.

I was just pointing out the analogy was irrelevant. It's not comparing like for like - for that to be the case, the SSL clone would have to be sonically IDENTICAL to the box it's replicating - otherwise it's just good value for money, but not a substitute for someone who actually wants the sound of the real thing.
Old 1st July 2017
  #1009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I'm sorry - you misunderstand me.
OK. I got you now.
Old 1st July 2017
  #1010
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stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I'm not at all on the side of building Hacks, but my point is the hypothetically perfect Hack runs OSX with zero change in function to a "real" mac.
On a real Mac, you can upgrade the OS without being afraid that basic functionality, like Wifi, stops working.


Building a Hackintosh is also a risk: Apple ignores Hackintosh builders, which also means they do nothing to accommodate them. So if, in the future, there comes a point when all Macs have Secure Enclaves, and Apple decides that, for obvious security reasons, a Mac will only boot once the Secure Enclave is verified (to name just one possible example), Hackintoshes will be screwed for good.
Old 1st July 2017
  #1011
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Mikael B, you knee jerked a reply not reading my fourth sentence of the post "They are basically a reseller like all the other brand names." My exact point is that there is nothing "Real Deal" about Apple or any other brand, especially for pro DAW function. Most tweeked for audio boxes do the job including old single cores.

stratology, night lights / touch strips / fingerprint readers are not needed for DAW workstations and a good argument could be made they are fairly worthless for general computing. As for a proprietary SSD controller, you don't need that in order to run an SSD in a Hack. This thread is about what Apple needs to produce for pro DAW workstation usage if it wants to compete with what else is already out there (including self builds and specialty setups from the commercial DAW box builders). Hopefully they will listen to the sound advice given by pros in the trenches (hint . . PCIe slots LOL). They failed to do so with their last attempt and have been losing customers in this specific market because of those decisions. It's true what you said about Apple perhaps locking down their system in the future (for security LOL) but given their closed garden, they could also exclude all other DAW app usage except their own software too. Both are potential risks with a closed system. That's why we buy both computers and software for what it can do today and not count on it doing anything else in the future.

As for the "My time is so valuable" arguement. Well we are posting here not getting paid to do so (with the exception of the covert marketers LOL) so given the years here and posts made, my time is not so valuable. I suspect it's the same for many of you too. When you start looking at total cost of ownership figures, few add in lost time and money when the "I can't get my hands dirty" guys need to bring in and leave a computer at the Apple store for repair, especially when they don't have redundancy (or have to send in any other thing for repair too). Add in a realistic figure for down time and then look at the numbers. There was a pretty good reason analog mixing boards were modular and studios purchased extra modules. The same thinking applied to rack gear as it was often purchased in multiples of two. The job used to be keep the studio up and running 24 / 7 and you needed redundancy and getting your hands dirty to accomplish it. Bedroom guys and project studios are a different thing and losing a week could be no big deal but again this thread is about Apple providing a true pro DAW workstation box.
Old 1st July 2017
  #1012
Tui
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post


Building a Hackintosh is also a risk: Apple ignores Hackintosh builders, which also means they do nothing to accommodate them.
I would have thought Apple does everything they can to make life difficult for the hackintosh community (which I don't think is that large to begin with. I very much doubt that lost sales are even noticeable on their gargantuan balance sheets).

Those of us who like to mod the look of Logic have found that Apple makes changes to the relevant files with almost every point update, without introducing noteworthy improvements to the functionality of Logic. It very much looks as if they make changes simply because they can. Consequently, modders have to start almost from scratch every few months.

It used to be possible and quite easy to change the look of OS X as well, with a programme called Shapeshifter. A lot of good ideas and creativity went into it, not only with respect to the GUI, but icons as well. You could make OS X look nearly the same as Sierra, 10 years ago.

With subsequent OS updates, this became increasingly difficult and ultimately impossible. Apple made sure nobody was enjoying their Macs too much...
Old 2nd July 2017
  #1013
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Try selling your hackintosh after 3 years. It's going to be worth far less than a Mac, which have always held their value surprisingly well.

The same with the original SSL.

Your argument that a hackintosh is the same as an Apple computer only works because you disregard the things that are different. (screen, case/form factor , warranty, free painless OS updates, resale value, etc)

that argument works for literally anything. The SSL clone is the same as the SSL too if you don't care about the things that are different

Last edited by lowkey; 2nd July 2017 at 08:40 AM..
Old 2nd July 2017
  #1014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassmankr View Post
Mikael B, you knee jerked a reply not reading my fourth sentence of the post "They are basically a reseller like all the other brand names." My exact point is that there is nothing "Real Deal" about Apple or any other brand, especially for pro DAW function. Most tweeked for audio boxes do the job including old single cores.
So, I did. Surely you don't expect me to read the whole post, do you? (Just kidding) It's the "real deal" as those Apple boxes are expected, at least by me and my clients, to just work for some years until they're being replaced. They're the reference for how things should work. I do of course realize it's very possible to build a more tuned box for music if you do it yourself, but except myself I meet very little interest in this kind of ideas.

I disagree Apple must contemplate the DIY crowd to be able to sell, even though I think it'd be nice myself the numbers are too small. They're more concerned by competition from companies, building (and selling) many boxes that just so happen to work with a certain OS.
Old 2nd July 2017
  #1015
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Quote:
"The new iMac is upgradable!
Pigs have flown. Hell hath, indeed, frozen over. It’s Christmas in June! We tore down the new 21.5″ iMac with 4K Display and discovered that it has removable RAM and a modular CPU. We haven't seen a 21.5″ iMac this upgradable in years."
iMac Intel 21.5" Retina 4K Display 2017 Teardown (iFixit.com)
Old 2nd July 2017
  #1016
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
On a real Mac, you can upgrade the OS without being afraid that basic functionality, like Wifi, stops working.


Building a Hackintosh is also a risk: Apple ignores Hackintosh builders, which also means they do nothing to accommodate them. So if, in the future, there comes a point when all Macs have Secure Enclaves, and Apple decides that, for obvious security reasons, a Mac will only boot once the Secure Enclave is verified (to name just one possible example), Hackintoshes will be screwed for good.
Yup I get all that, and I totally agree. I was just disagreeing with the analogy I initially quoted.
Old 2nd July 2017
  #1017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
No, it's not fair, nor is it a useful way to argue. The main point is that, if you're going to whine about "Apple taxes", then have the honesty to compare the same components or those that are as close as possible. In 2013, unless you could get components at other prices than the cheapest one could find, then Mac Pro was an attractive package, if those were what you wanted. Then with time the attraction lessened as Apple refused to update the hardware.

In the coming Mac Pros, the reasoning must be the same: that you look at what it would cost you to build the machine yourself and weigh that against Apple price points.
It sounds like you're ignoring that Apple often includes features that drive up the price and that aren't useful for us (for example expensive dual video cards in the trashcan mac pro.) The comparison should be between Apple's very limited choices and whatever you can build on your own, and you should consider exactly what you need along with the price. So if you can build a machine for $1k that does what you need, it doesn't matter that the $4k Apple computer has expensive dual video cards welded to the mother board. That's a problem, not a "feature."
Old 2nd July 2017
  #1018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassmankr View Post
stratology, night lights / touch strips / fingerprint readers are not needed for DAW workstations and a good argument could be made they are fairly worthless for general computing.
These were just examples disproving your point about 'off the shelf' hardware.

If you want to make a new point, and differentiate in terms of usefulness for pro audio, you can look at a different set of examples, like the included zero configuration backup software; metadata based search that can find files by characteristics like bit depth, sample rate, composer; the amount of time it takes to set up a computer for use in pro audio; the quality of tech support, etc.


If you claim that platforms are essentially the same, reducing them to 'lowest common denominator' invalidates the whole point.
Pointing out that some of the differentiators are not important for your individual, specific use case is irrelevant. Either the platforms are different, and cater to the differing needs of users, or they're basically the same. You can't have both.
Old 2nd July 2017
  #1019
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Apple made a mistake when they dropped the Quad Mini. Particularly when TB interfaces were introduced.

A powerful Mini is a great choice for audio, as graphics are not so much of a concern. The Mini had always been Apples best price/performance value, but they neutered it when they dropped the Quad option. I REALLY hope they do a decent Mini with similar specs to the new iMac.
Old 2nd July 2017
  #1020
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
It sounds like you're ignoring that Apple often includes features that drive up the price and that aren't useful for us (for example expensive dual video cards in the trashcan mac pro.) The comparison should be between Apple's very limited choices and whatever you can build on your own, and you should consider exactly what you need along with the price. So if you can build a machine for $1k that does what you need, it doesn't matter that the $4k Apple computer has expensive dual video cards welded to the mother board. That's a problem, not a "feature."
No, it's not relevant at all. If you don't like Apple's offerings, choose some other solution. Don't, however, claim Apple's boxes are expensive if you can't build a box with all of which is in their machines at a better price. Quality comes with costs.

Save instead lamentations about "Apple taxes" for when it's relevant, like if very similar machine offerings are better priced. Sometimes this is so and for Mac Pros will remain so until the new ones are released, but overall it's not as often as some people here and elsewhere pretend. It's laughable to me how mechanically this is repeated.

Of course I wouldn't expect an Apple race for the bottom when it comes to price, but the reasons for why hardware costs alone can't be the sole parameter to evaluate have already been given previously.

Even as I build desktop boxes I feel the MBP still overall are the best portable music computers, also when not having the latest of everything and certainly since the release of macOS 10.12 "Sierra". That doesn't mean there exist no alternatives that are close but nevertheless.
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