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Tim Cook on Mac Desktop commitment Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 10th June 2017
  #871
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyjohn View Post
Its free speech. Snowflakes just go back to your safe space if you don't want to read what you don't agree.

Reminder to self: "Must spend more time trolling Fruity Loops users".


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Old 10th June 2017
  #872
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexff View Post
Whist I respect your knowledge on the subject is far greater than mine..come on. You can't just ignore the 5k screen in your costing! Besides, the big 5k screen is basically the selling point for those who buy iMacs..
I'm sure the 5K screen is absolutely great and will fit some people's needs perfectly. Anyone in the market for such a screen and form factor should certainly take it into account as a plus point.

That said, just like anyone else, I look at any new product from my own perspective taking my own needs and wishes into account. I already have three screens. Two low profile screens side beside which are slightly behind and lowered compared to the desk so that they are out of the direct sound path from my monitor speakers and a 3rd larger one centred above the other two but that is quite a bit further back so that it is more or less between the monitor speakers and thus also out of the direct sound path.

In other words, for my specific wishes and needs, the iMac form-factor is a disadvantage rather than an advantage but I'm sure that for many it is an advantage and they should take that into account. Generally speaking though it does mean that you have to take the screen whether you want it or not. That could be great for some people or it could be an unnecessary imposed cost. It all depends on one's personal needs and wishes.



The following isn't directed at you alexff.

Some people here seem to have real issues when facts are presented that they do not like. It is as though they prefer to remain ignorant and do not want to even know about the options available. It is as though they take it personally when it is pointed out that Apple products (just like any other products) are not entirely perfect.

They also assume that they speak for every single Mac user when they complain about anyone pointing out any negatives about an Apple product, even when just addressing an obvious click bait article. They also lack objectivity and completely miss when the same people address nonsense arguments against buying a high-end Mac. (Like my post to Claborn, many of DAW PLUS' posts etc).

If you really can't handle facts and a bit of criticism against a product or brand you like, let alone a response to silly click bait article, without resorting to childish Ad Hominem attacks, stay off the internet.

Alistair
Old 10th June 2017
  #873
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottkrk View Post
Absolutely!

Not everybody wants to spend hours, days, weeks and years of their lives:
  • researching computer parts
  • compare pricing of computer parts
  • buying computer parts from multiple vendors
  • building computers from parts from multiple vendors
  • troubleshooting when their custom multi vendor creation doesn't work
  • then all the hassles or getting the BIOS, OS, drivers and apps working

A lot of people are not interested in this kind of stuff, and are more than happy to pay someone else to take care of this stuff for them. Personally I am happy that my computer/OS/DAW is from one vendor, and I don't have to do all the activities that some people love doing. I have more time for doing what I like doing.
There are several DAW builder companies that offer all of the above including purchasing, installing and fully testing DAW software, audio-interfaces and other necessary audio peripherals. They actually offer more of a turnkey solution than Apple do and will give you support on your specific system with your specific setup, software and audio-interface(s). And you don't have to deal with the compatibility issues between different OSX versions and different apps and plugins. That doesn't mean that you should switch platforms or anything like that but your argumentation is invalid.

Quote:
Now if someone finds all the activities above interesting and worthwhile way to spend their life I am happy for them. They will have great bragging rights on computer building forums, will have saved money and can claim they have the fastest cheapest system at a particular point in time. But on a threads like this these guys are just trolling....

This is a thread about the future of Apple computers and they do not exist in a vacuum. You might find it unpleasant that Apple solutions are not perfect but that is the reality of life for pretty much every product from every company.

There are people posting here with extensive IT and computer knowledge addressing some of the pluses and negatives of these products. Unless you prefer to be ignorant, you should be glad people share their knowledge like this.

I have my own studio but I freelance at various studios that use both Macs and PCs. Besides simply wanting to know what is happening in the market and being curious about new technology products, I also give technical advice to various studios and radio stations. I'm not paid for this, I left IT over a decade ago, but they trust my knowledge and understanding of the market and what is available. I don't tell the studios running Macs to buy PCs because I know that isn't what they want (unless they ask) and I don't tell the studios that run PCs to switch to Macs either so it is useful to me and thus also to the people I advise to be aware of what is happening on either platform.

There also seems to be a gigantic cognitive blind spot at work here: If it weren't for the countless number of people complaining and criticising Apple's lack of communication about their future plans, we wouldn't even be having this discussion because Apple would have stuck to their policy of never talking about future products. They now realise that that is not a good approach when dealing with professionals that need to know whether they can rely on the company for their future computer needs. Healthy criticism is what what made this discussion possible in the first place!


Alistair
Old 10th June 2017
  #874
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Blah blah blah

Alistair
Alistair, you are a Win 7 64 bit, Cubase 9 user, correct?

And yet most of your posts are in threads that are discussing Apple products?

Isn't that kind of weird/sad?

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Old 10th June 2017
  #875
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottkrk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Blah blah blah

Alistair
You seem to have your fingers firmly stuck in your ears. No wonder you don't understand what I am saying.

Your unwillingness to listen and learn is probably at the root of your incorrect views on the available turnkey audio computer solutions.


Here is another example of a turnkey solution that goes way beyond what Apple offer:

http://tapeop.com/reviews/gear/115/r...-computer-hdr/

Yes it does use a Windows PC... Notable quote from the article:

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://tapeop.com/reviews/gear/115/radar-studio-computer-hdr/
The Mac platform in particular, with its inherent upgrade/update-triggered bugs that wreak havoc on Pro Tools and other demanding audio applications, was really starting to feel more like a hindrance than Apple's artist-friendly marketing led me to believe. While RADAR studio is based on a Windows PC, it comes with 10 years of tech support, and that was ultimately more meaningful to me than the "safety" of sticking with Mac.
This _is_ reality even if some people don't want to accept reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scottkrk View Post
Alistair, you are a Win 7 64 bit, Cubase 9 user, correct?
Wrong. If you would take your fingers out of your ears you would understand that I use all sorts of systems in various facilities.

In my own studio I use a combination of PT HD and Cubase. Mostly PT HD for customer work.

Quote:
And yet most of your posts are in threads that are discussing Apple products?
Again, completely wrong. I post in many threads on many topics. If you are really bored you can go and check my critical posts towards Steinberg in the Cubase forum or my criticism of Avid's business practices for instance.

Quote:
Isn't that kind of weird/sad?
It is weird and sad that people are so insecure that they can not handle a bit of a reality check about some of the products they use to the point of resorting to Ad Hominem attacks to deal with their cognitive dissonance. These things are just tools. None of them are perfect nor are any of the companies that produce them.

It benefits everyone to share knowledge and understanding about the available tools and the companies that make them. This puts pressure on the companies to improve their products and their policies.

We are already seeing the effects of the transparency and open dialogue that the internet has brought us on many fronts. Apple's change of policies as regards to future products announcement is a great example of this. Again, this thread would not even exist if it weren't for people complaining in the past about Apple's policies!

Alistair
Old 10th June 2017
  #876
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MusiKLover's Avatar
Tim Cook to the MIT Graduating Seniors yesterday, and it is apropos:

Cook went on to deliver some serious advice to the class of 2017, and the effect that the online world may have on their lives.

“The internet has enabled so much and empowered so many. But it can also be a place where the basic rules of decency are suspended and pettiness and negativity thrive,” Cook said.

He encouraged students not to let “the noise knock you off course” or to “get caught up on the trivial aspects of life.”

“Don’t listen to the trolls, and for God’s sake don’t become one,” Cook added. “Measure your impact on humanity not in likes, but in the lives you touch. Not in popularity, but in the people you serve.”
Old 10th June 2017
  #877
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
I'm sure the 5K screen is absolutely great and will fit some people's needs perfectly. Anyone in the market for such a screen and form factor should certainly take it into account as a plus point.

A That said, just like anyone else, I look at any new product from my own perspective taking my own needs and wishes into account. I already have three screens. Two low profile screens side beside which are slightly behind and lowered compared to the desk so that they are out of the direct sound path from my monitor speakers and a 3rd larger one centred above the other two but that is quite a bit further back so that it is more or less between the monitor speakers and thus also out of the direct sound path.

In other words, for my specific wishes and needs, the iMac form-factor is a disadvantage rather than an advantage but I'm sure that for many it is an advantage and they should take that into account. Generally speaking though it does mean that you have to take the screen whether you want it or not. That could be great for some people or it could be an unnecessary imposed cost. It all depends on one's personal needs and wishes.
A fair point then, can't argue with that.
I put myself on the iMac camp as I like having the screen, but I concede it's not the product for everyone.

I think a lot of people are going to like it though. I better start saving..
Old 10th June 2017
  #878
Gear Maniac
 

Maybe we should stop thinking about the iMac Pro as an iMac audio Pro. I guess the fancy screen and GPU is overkill for running a DAW. A regular iMac with plenty of RAM would be more suited. And you can spend the difference in outboard audio processors. This discussion is probably irrelevant to the product. Now an architect, an advertiser or a gaming studio can spend waaaaay more cash on machines, trust me
Old 10th June 2017
  #879
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stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mininoyz View Post
Maybe we should stop thinking about the iMac Pro as an iMac audio Pro. I guess the fancy screen and GPU is overkill for running a DAW. A regular iMac with plenty of RAM would be more suited. And you can spend the difference in outboard audio processors. This discussion is probably irrelevant to the product. Now an architect, an advertiser or a gaming studio can spend waaaaay more cash on machines, trust me
Very good point, and consistent with the comments by Schiller and Federighi in the interview above - they mention all kinds of pro applications where this kind of power is needed, but don't mention audio.
Old 11th June 2017
  #880
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
More Blah Blah
Alistair
Alistair I did look at your previous posts and you spend an awful lot of time criticising Apple, which is kind of weird considering you use Win7? Others can look at your post history and come to their own conclusions.

Are you on some kind of crusade to enlighten all off us poor ignorant Apple users? Are you the holder of important knowledge that will set us free. Really? You believe you know everyone's use cases better than they do? This is bordering on delusional, as is your belief that your criticism of Apple has made Apple more open.

I don't go on windows forums and evangelise macOS, first because I have got better things to do with my time and second I am not so arrogant as to presume my choices and preferences will fit other people's use cases.

I am not discounting your experience or insights but why not give them in forums that are of service to the participants? To give you a concrete example, your point about windows turnkey daw solutions would be of service in a thread that is about someone wanting to switch from mac to windows or in a thread discussing turnkey solutions for frustrated windows users.

Don't confuse your personal experience and preferences with some kind of universally generalisable truth that is applicable to everyone else's use cases. Live and let live man, you will lead a happier more productive life.
Old 11th June 2017
  #881
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottkrk View Post
Alistair I did look at your previous posts and you spend an awful lot of time criticising Apple, which is kind of weird considering you use Win7? Others can look at your post history and come to their own conclusions.

Are you on some kind of crusade to enlighten all off us poor ignorant Apple users? Are you the holder of important knowledge that will set us free. Really? You believe you know everyone's use cases better than they do? This is bordering on delusional, as is your belief that your criticism of Apple has made Apple more open.

I don't go on windows forums and evangelise macOS, first because I have got better things to do with my time and second I am not so arrogant as to presume my choices and preferences will fit other people's use cases.

I am not discounting your experience or insights but why not give them in forums that are of service to the participants? To give you a concrete example, your point about windows turnkey daw solutions would be of service in a thread that is about someone wanting to switch from mac to windows or in a thread discussing turnkey solutions for frustrated windows users.

Don't confuse your personal experience and preferences with some kind of universally generalisable truth that is applicable to everyone else's use cases.
Instead of rudely trying to shut people up that say things you don't like, I suggest you use the forum ignore function. That will avoid you the distress my posts seem to bring you.

Btw, besides being rather childish, editing quoted text is against forum rules.

Quote:
Live and let live man, you will lead a happier more productive life.
Oh the hypocrisy!

Alistair
Old 11th June 2017
  #882
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Yes it does use a Windows PC... Notable quote from the article:

Quote:
The Mac platform in particular, with its inherent upgrade/update-triggered bugs that wreak havoc on Pro Tools and other demanding audio applications, was really starting to feel more like a hindrance than Apple's artist-friendly marketing led me to believe.
Whoever wrote that review doesn't know how to disable auto update. And probably shouldn't be commenting on how to use Macs for audio, if writing tech articles at all, if this is their approach - the very first article in the DUC specifically says to turn OFF auto update and not update until approved.

In maybe 10-15 years of teching PT systems, I've never had an issue caused by an OS update. That may be the author's experience, but that's a reflection on them, not on the system.

I'm not wading into the debate on comparing the systems, but the above quote is a reason based on incompetence, not fact. You'd do better to avoid using quotes like that to justify anything!
Old 11th June 2017
  #883
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
More blah blah

Alistair
I am responding to your opinions, with my own opinions, if you find that too challenging, maybe you should hit the old ignore button.

Getting back to the topic of the thread.

Many thanks to Stratology for the link, I enjoyed watching John Gruber's talk with Phil Schiller and Craig Federighi. After Apple's painful re-org following Steve Jobs death and their major misstep with the Mac Pro design, I am now very optimistic about the future of the Mac platform. Apple seem to have rebalanced their product portfolio and macOS no longer feels like the poor cousin.

The AR developments and external GPUs over TB3 are interesting. Nothing in the short term for Logic users but you can be sure Gerhard and the team will be all over it if/when there is a break through with DSP on GPUs. BTW thats one of the many reasons I am happy for my hardware/OS/daw to all be first party.

Note to Alistair: This is just my preference, if people want to spend time building their own systems all power to them, Windows Hackintoshes, whatever; good luck and love to them all!

Live and let live man!

Last edited by scottkrk; 11th June 2017 at 07:30 AM..
Old 11th June 2017
  #884
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lowkey's Avatar
 

Don't get this much action in a Dell thread
Old 11th June 2017
  #885
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
You are being disingenuous. You left out the bolded part about the 10 year support. That was the important part as regards to a hassle free solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Whoever wrote that review doesn't know how to disable auto update. And probably shouldn't be commenting on how to use Macs for audio, if writing tech articles at all, if this is their approach - the very first article in the DUC specifically says to turn OFF auto update and not update until approved.
Nothing was said about auto-updates.

Quote:
In maybe 10-15 years of teching PT systems, I've never had an issue caused by an OS update. That may be the author's experience, but that's a reflection on them, not on the system.
Are you claiming there are never any compatibility issues between different versions of OSX, different versions of audio apps and different versions of plugins? Seriously?

Quote:
I'm not wading into the debate on comparing the systems, but the above quote is a reason based on incompetence, not fact. You'd do better to avoid using quotes like that to justify anything!
Again, are you claiming there are never any compatibility issues between different versions of OSX, different versions of audio apps and different versions of plugins? Seriously?

Alistair
Old 11th June 2017
  #886
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottkrk View Post
I am responding to your opinions, with my own opinions, if you find that too challenging, maybe you should hit the old ignore button.
You are still rudely breaking forum rules by editing quoted text and just like all fanboys, you can't distinguish fact from opinion.

And yes, I will add you to my ignore list as you are incapable of having a polite or rational discussion and prefer to remain ignorant.

Quote:
good luck and love to them all!

Live and let live man!
The hypocrisy continues...


PS: I responded to the clickbait article on pricing. I'll leave the church now and let the congregation continue their celebrations.


Alistair
Old 11th June 2017
  #887
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
You are being disingenuous. You left out the bolded part about the 10 year support. That was the important part as regards to a hassle free solution.
But I wasn't arguing that point. That is indeed a good thing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Nothing was said about auto-updates.
It was implied. Because otherwise, someone would have to be intentionally updating an OS that they've not checked has been marked as compatible..which is obviously pilot error. And possibly likely to cause issues on both platforms. It's just a throwaway whinge with no real qualifying detail, and has no place in a technical review. It just shows inherent bias, that's all. Pretty sure Windows updates are also likely to break plugin/DAW compatibility. It's the same for both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Are you claiming there are never any compatibility issues between different versions of OSX, different versions of audio apps and different versions of plugins? Seriously?
No. I didn't say that. I said I've never had an issue like the author described, of an approved update breaking compatibility when it's been approved by all parties. I daresay I've got more PT tech support experience than most, including the author, even though he's been using Macs for longer (according to the article).


Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Again, are you claiming there are never any compatibility issues between different versions of OSX, different versions of audio apps and different versions of plugins? Seriously?
Again, no.

I'm just saying the line "The Mac platform in particular, with its inherent upgrade/update-triggered bugs that wreak havoc on Pro Tools and other demanding audio applications" isn't true in my experience. And I have a very good set of experience by now.

I'm not even really debating the point of the article - for the price of the thing, it should be very good! (and I get similar levels of support from the dealer I bought our HDX rig from). I literally just took issue with the point I mentioned, hence the reason I didn't address the point in bold you mentioned.
Old 11th June 2017
  #888
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Pretty sure Windows updates are also likely to break plugin/DAW compatibility. It's the same for both.
I have auto-update on on Windows. No DAWs, audio apps or plugins I use have ever been broken by a Windows update. I don't even think about it. Some of these tools are over half a decade old (and are now "abandon-ware" but they still work).

Quote:
I'm just saying the line "The Mac platform in particular, with its inherent upgrade/update-triggered bugs that wreak havoc on Pro Tools and other demanding audio applications" isn't true in my experience. And I have a very good set of experience by now.
If you read it as issues being caused by auto-update then fair enough.

I read it as the known issue that Apple regularly and knowingly break compatibility with updates. Even if you don't auto-update your OS (which should be done for security reason IMO), you still have to keep track of all the compatibility issues and which version of which tool is approved for which version of OSX. IMO this does not fit the description of a hassle free system which is part of the point I was responding to.

Quote:
I'm not even really debating the point of the article - for the price of the thing, it should be very good! (and I get similar levels of support from the dealer I bought our HDX rig from). I literally just took issue with the point I mentioned, hence the reason I didn't address the point in bold you mentioned.
Fair enough. The above paragraph is really what this is all about: There are various turnkey and/or hassle free solutions available to professionals that go through dealers or dedicated computer builder companies. The argument that one must use Apple products for a hassle free experience is IMO an invalid one.

I understand that not everyone on this board is a professional that uses a dealer or a DAW builder for their purchases but I am talking from my perspective as a professional and my experience at various facilities using either platform. As usual, YMMV...

Alistair
Old 11th June 2017
  #889
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
Very good point, and consistent with the comments by Schiller and Federighi in the interview above - they mention all kinds of pro applications where this kind of power is needed, but don't mention audio.
I think they lastly said the word musicians during the keynote. Probably more a secondary use after graphics, for work or as a hobby.

There is no mention of audio use on the current teaser Apple iMac Pro site and there probably never will be.
Old 11th June 2017
  #890
Gear Maniac
 

Ok, but note that Garageband has been updated
Old 11th June 2017
  #891
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stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastlanephil View Post
I think they lastly said the word musicians during the keynote. Probably more a secondary use after graphics, for work or as a hobby.
Possibly because in terms of music production, the current line up is already pretty good. The iMac Pro is aimed at a market that demands more power. (Not saying that we don't want more power, or course )

That doesn't mean that they're not committed to music production. Logic gets frequent updates.

Keynotes are for a mass audience. There was a dedicated 'What's new in Audio' session during WWDC 2017. Nothing groundbreakingly new on OS level, but still interesting.




Sidenote:
Apologies, I had accidentally posted a link to Gruber's WWDC talk of 2016 above, the post now has the correct link to the 2017 video. They talk about the iMac Pro, external graphics via Thunderbolt, using processing power of graphics cards for tasks typically handled by the CPU, etc.
Old 12th June 2017
  #892
Gear Addict
 

I just checked out Geekbench and the 2017 4.2GHz i7 iMac isn't too far behind the 8-core 2013 Mac Pro for Multi-Core performance. I wonder how it performs in Logic.
Old 12th June 2017
  #893
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
I have auto-update on on Windows. No DAWs, audio apps or plugins I use have ever been broken by a Windows update. I don't even think about it. Some of these tools are over half a decade old (and are now "abandon-ware" but they still work).
That's good - I'm assuming you have an easy way to "roll back" if necessary though (which is kinda the same thing as not updating until approved). It would be foolish on any system to update without a roll back option - if someone's running Time Machine and auto-update, I guess that's the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
If you read it as issues being caused by auto-update then fair enough.

I read it as the known issue that Apple regularly and knowingly break compatibility with updates. Even if you don't auto-update your OS (which should be done for security reason IMO), you still have to keep track of all the compatibility issues and which version of which tool is approved for which version of OSX. IMO this does not fit the description of a hassle free system which is part of the point I was responding to.
The way I have always done things is wait a little while for any OS related issues to come to light. Once PT is approved, the update is usually safe. I've never had an issue doing it this way.

I've never had a "hassle" with OS. I don't think that computers or anything computerised are ever "hassle free" - my wife can start an argument with the microwave not behaving as she expects it too, and my mother in law will always find a way to destroy computers! - but some are more hassle free than others.

I appreciate the security issues, but equally never had an issue there. If you don't run emails on your work machine (I do, but then I'm running spamblocks and simply I don't just click links which is what causes 99% of security issues), and/or have a good company security setup (our studio machine is on a corporate network and as well protected as anything IT) then I'm sure a wait isn't an issue. It certainly has never been in the past.


Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Fair enough. The above paragraph is really what this is all about: There are various turnkey and/or hassle free solutions available to professionals that go through dealers or dedicated computer builder companies. The argument that one must use Apple products for a hassle free experience is IMO an invalid one.
RADAR studio is not a comparison though really. A bespoke PT PC might be; anyone buying RADAR studio wants to use RADAR, or they're throwing money away. RADAR is a competitor to HDX only if you want to actually use RADAR.

As has been mentioned, this isn't about RADAR or PCs though - it might be good to get back on topic perhaps?
Old 12th June 2017
  #894
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
RADAR studio is not a comparison though really. A bespoke PT PC might be; anyone buying RADAR studio wants to use RADAR, or they're throwing money away. RADAR is a competitor to HDX only if you want to actually use RADAR.

As has been mentioned, this isn't about RADAR or PCs though - it might be good to get back on topic perhaps?
Sure, just one clarification about the RADAR system: They don't exactly consider themselves a competitor to PT any more. The first and main marketing picture for the RADAR Studio on their website shows it running Pro Tools. Also, they support UAD and HDX cards (through the RADAR Studio Frame product).

Alistair
Old 12th June 2017
  #895
Gear Addict
 
Night Stalker's Avatar
 

all excellent points and as usual, a wealth of information, now can we get back (and stay) on topic please.
Old 12th June 2017
  #896
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
Not really. I just commented on the point I disagree with, which makes sense in the context of the thread and previous posts.
I agree with the rest of DAW PLUS's post, he made good points.
The point you disagree with was a statement from Claborn, which I responded to, not mine. Still, that sentence is true by itself. Whether such a system is usable for professionals is something we seem to agree.


Quote:
Originally Posted by alexff View Post
"iMac Pro cost blows away similar Lenovo workstation, DIY builders struggle to meet price with fewer features"

iMac Pro cost blows away similar Lenovo workstation, DIY builders struggle to meet price with fewer features
That is a crap article, IMO.
It also completely ignores the fact that, as far as I can remember, this is the first time that Apple announces a system which will be on the market *6 months later*. We don't even have the SKU's for these components yet. Once again people compare uncomparable things. A 2620v4??? What a nonsense...


Quote:
Originally Posted by alexff View Post
Whist I respect your knowledge on the subject is far greater than mine..come on. You can't just ignore the 5k screen in your costing! Besides, the big 5k screen is basically the selling point for those who buy iMacs..
The 5K screen is fantastic if you work with picture IMO, or even office/consumer. For non-image work I rather see it as a hindrance as you cannot use full 5K on 27" without scaling, which makes it moot. I used a 4K 28" and it already was useless. Currently 4K on 40" is good, but I wouldn't use anything smaller.


Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Whoever wrote that review doesn't know how to disable auto update. And probably shouldn't be commenting on how to use Macs for audio, if writing tech articles at all, if this is their approach - the very first article in the DUC specifically says to turn OFF auto update and not update until approved.

In maybe 10-15 years of teching PT systems, I've never had an issue caused by an OS update. That may be the author's experience, but that's a reflection on them, not on the system.
People who claim the OS is the culprit typically tend to hide the fact they are a bad operator of the tools they use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastlanephil View Post
I just checked out Geekbench and the 2017 4.2GHz i7 iMac isn't too far behind the 8-core 2013 Mac Pro for Multi-Core performance. I wonder how it performs in Logic.
I've said it a few times before, Geekbench gives very poor information on how audio systems will work as SSDs and RAM speed/bandwidth influence the result too much. It may be true for video & 3D rendering, but for realtime audio those benchmarks are pretty much worthless.
Old 12th June 2017
  #897
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Sure, just one clarification about the RADAR system: They don't exactly consider themselves a competitor to PT any more. The first and main marketing picture for the RADAR Studio on their website shows it running Pro Tools. Also, they support UAD and HDX cards (through the RADAR Studio Frame product).

Alistair
True - maybe an alternative to HDX though, since they're presumably encouraging people to record to RADAR (low latency, stability etc) then move to PT for mixing (RADAR isn't really a mix option for all but the diehards in the current climate IMO). It seems kind of weird to load a RADAR studio with an HDX card, unless you're a commercial room who has a mixture of clients with a high RADAR bias.

It's definitely a clever evolution of the main product.
Old 13th June 2017
  #898
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Jones Sr View Post
Anyone suggesting that PT isn't sensitive to specific OS versions or hardware is basically talking waffle. While other apps are quite version-agnostic you really have to marry up the OS version (including points) with the correct version of PT to get stuff working, and in some cases a new update fixes audio and breaks midi for example.
If that's my point you're picking up on, then that wasn't what I was saying. I said if you don't update until the OS is qualified, you don't generally have any issues. I speak from experience..never having had any OS issues.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Jones Sr View Post
It doesn't really matter how many comparisons shill websites do between the iMac Pro specs and some other workstation, a genuinely modular, repairable and upgradable 'airy-cased' workstation will always be a better solution. If you're running one of the daws that runs better on Windows like Ableton/Reaper/Cubase you'd be insane to buy the iMac Pro.
I'd agree - except that I never see any issues with Live ("Ableton" is a manufacturer) running on Macs, apart from when you get disorganised EDM producers using cracks or not managing their sample libraries well. It's pretty damn stable. Every live act using programming seems to be running Macs with Live too - and I hear of few issues.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Jones Sr View Post

Some will argue that you should just freeze your main working machine at the setup that works. This is such a bull**** disingenious argument, apart from issues such as zeroday security issues that are quickly patched (including on the Mac), there are many reasons why people need to shift around in their OS version. What do you do when your specific finely balanced matching triplet of correct Mac hardware, correct OS version and correct DAW version is all working awesomely but that fabulous plugin bundle you just spent $2000 on says it needs the OS version just after that to run correctly (possibly not through their fault but due to bugs in say, Metal). What happens when the main machine you work with completely burns out and fails to even post, and is declared unrepairable? You go out and buy a new one - which OS does the new one come with, I'll give you a clue, Apple isn't installing Yosemite or Panther on a machine sold this week.
I agree. that's not feasible for anyone who uses a DAW for more than tape recording purposes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Jones Sr View Post
The arguments in this thread about arbitrary breakage *are* valid and have become worse on the Mac platform. The latest announcements from Apple are that 32bit apps are being phased out of the app store (and many suspect this will be followed by the frameworks for 32bit app support being removed from High Sierra or perhaps the next OS altogether). For people like us who have many various small but important apps related to audio, or perhaps editors for specific hardware that haven't been updated in 4 years or more, this means the death of those applications.
That's the point at which you "freeze your system". If your developer isn't releasing updates, it's up to you to keep a working (spare) system.

Supporting 32bit apps going forward wastes developer time (you'll find literally ALL small plugin manufacturers are dropping RTAS and 32bit AAX formats, even Waves have done I believe). It's not Apple here - it's computers. There comes a point where backwards compatibility stifles development. It's probably the *right* time to drop 32bit support now that 64bit apps are the norm.

<Mod note - the forum software automatically censors swearing...leave it out!>
Old 13th June 2017
  #899
Lives for gear
 
zephonic's Avatar
I just updated my main system drive to Sierra, and it seems to run almost everything fine. I also have a boot disk with my old Mountain Lion system in the same computer, and if I need something from the Carbon days, I actually have a clone of my old iMac running SnowLeopard with a bunch of old stuff should I ever need to go back to it.

Truth is, in my situation backward-compatibility is hardly ever needed, whereas an up-to-date system becomes ever more important now that devs have discovered they can drop support for older versions and charge for updates that work with only with the latest OS.

I think the backward-compatibility that Windows users demand is ultimately what rendered Microsoft uncompetitive. It is great if you have software from the 80's or 90's that you still use (and the inertia that defines large institutions and government ensures there are still plenty of software systems from that time in actual use), but it really is an impediment to innovation.

Many people believe Microsoft has the right idea with combining touch and legacy UI into one system, and ridicule Apple for only now adding back features to iOS that Windows 8 and 10 had baked in.
But Apple's approach enabled them to start with a clean slate., reimagine every feature and interaction, and I believe they will ultimately create an iOS that reaches feature parity with MacOS, minus all the legacy garbage. And MacOS is remarkably devoid of legacy cruft, compared to Windows.
Old 13th June 2017
  #900
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zephonic View Post
Truth is, in my situation backward-compatibility is hardly ever needed, whereas an up-to-date system becomes ever more important now that devs have discovered they can drop support for older versions and charge for updates that work with only with the latest OS.
That doesn't make sense, backwards compatibility means that old stuff Just Works™. So you can't be charged for updates to maintain compatibility with a new OS and devs don't have to spend time and money updating installers or fixing things that Just Worked™ before the last OS update(s). Assuming they are still around.
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