The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Tim Cook on Mac Desktop commitment Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 8th June 2017
  #841
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
So you're a PC user coming to a thread about Tim Cook and Apple to do what? Troll?

Thanks for your valued opinion about products you don't actually use. Much appreciated.
Haha no.. I do have a mac as well. I'm just not all that interested in the Mac Pro at the moment and lately I've been more conscious about value for money and it's one area where Apple has been failing a bit the past few years.

I have no problems paying for quality, but quality hasn't always been up to par in my opinion.
Old 8th June 2017
  #842
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mininoyz View Post

ok, bad humor
maga high energy
Old 8th June 2017
  #843
Lives for gear
 
lowkey's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Claborn View Post
This thread truely saddens me. I thought the engineers of the world were more savvy than to have to resort to buying, full retail, to have a peace of mind? Spending $5k on one computer gives you peace of mind?

.
It saddens you that an engineer can afford to spend $5k on a computer and then make back the money in an economically sustainable way by doing their job??

That makes me happy!
Old 8th June 2017
  #844
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
It was just a throwaway comment...don't take it to heart! Insert budget monitors of your choice versus 10k ATCs if it makes you feel better.



It's kinda weird that you can't see why spending a bit more on piece of mind is important for those who depend on their tools. For non essential purchases I'm happy to go 2nd hand; for stuff I rely on, I go to a dealer and pay more but have that recourse. It's important with bigger businesses - both to have the line of support, but also to show you've chosen the best route and not cut corners. If there's a problem, you can prove you've taken the best possible route and couldn't have done more. That can be important with some clients (and some bosses!).

There's nothing wrong with being a bit of a wheeler dealer and getting the best deal and making compromises, but there's times and places to do that. For me, that's not the machine I make my living with.
you take yourself way too seriously
Old 8th June 2017
  #845
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claborn View Post
This thread truely saddens me. I thought the engineers of the world were more savvy than to have to resort to buying, full retail, to have a peace of mind? Spending $5k on one computer gives you peace of mind?

So what's there to discuss then? Buy whatever apple releases, seeing how you guys refuse/can't do anything else.
I will not comment this from the Apple perspective, but from my own:
A powerful computer nowadays does not have to be expensive. They can be found cheap off-the-shelf or built by one self nowadays.
However, there are a few points where professionals are thinking different:
-many cannot build themselves, because they lack the knowledge. They do not have the time to do their homework, as they are either not interested to do so or because they prefer to spend their time otherwise.
-time is money. The time to invest in building or even searching for the correct components can be expensive if your hourly rate is high. In that regard, buying a workstation that has a solid reputation is cheaper despite the extra paid for assembly, warranty, support and service.
-many cheap systems simply are not up to the job. I read way too many reports about how "PC's" mess up, old systems not being compatible anymore etc. I can honestly tell you that we rarely have such issues, in ten years we can count the amount of downtime issues on one hand. Hundreds of customers, all professionals, in various industries. Lots of realtime work at events, shows, live TV etc. Such customers simply cannot afford to take a risk. Even when recording a band, if the system craps out, it is a really awkward situation. I have customers who had this situation before they came to us. Sometimes it means a lost customer.
-a solid dedicated system from a specialized vendor is more expensive, but it is also build to do exactly what you intend to do. Not every specialized vendor is good, but there are a few around which have a very good reputation. Such systems run for ages without issues and Windows is doing its job without being annoying. I see Macs as similar systems, they are solid right out of the box, so despite my personal favor being Windows, I fully understand Mac users to pay a premium for a system which simply works.
-in most studios and other media environments, the PC/workstation is the centerpiece of all work. Even most large studios record to a computer, so when that things breaks, things get messy - even if a backup system is around.

Downtime, issues to solve, managing computers is something most professionals do not want to deal with, so the peace of mind premium paid is easily returned.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Claborn View Post
you take yourself way too seriously
I think you don't take professionals serious enough.

Last edited by DAW PLUS; 8th June 2017 at 11:15 AM.. Reason: double negative
Old 8th June 2017
  #846
Gear Maniac
 
Oliver.Lucas's Avatar
Oh my god, this keynote was pure frustration if you want (need) a new modular system without a built in screen (and fans...) and want to use the lowest latency audio solution (rme raydat pcie)

At the same time they are trying to make the world switch to enhanced mono with their spyware speaker.

This company is getting on my nerves in the biggest possible style. Maybe I'm finally getting to old for the hype, but Apple 2017 totally sucks if you ask me.
Old 8th June 2017
  #847
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claborn View Post
you take yourself way too seriously
I don't take myself seriously at all. I do take my responsibilities quite seriously. As I'm sure you do.
Old 8th June 2017
  #848
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claborn View Post
you take yourself way too seriously
Like DAW PLUS I prefer Windows PC's over Macs but your argumentation is just silly. If you are trying to convince people not to buy Mac's, you are not doing a very good job of it.

Alistair
Old 8th June 2017
  #849
Lives for gear
 
spaceman's Avatar
 

Surprise ! The new iMacs are RAM and CPU upgradeable ... Not easy to do ( you have to open the machine ), but still doable
https://www.macrumors.com/2017/06/08...vable-ram-cpu/
Old 8th June 2017
  #850
Gear Maniac
 
Oliver.Lucas's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by spaceman View Post
Surprise ! The new iMacs are RAM and CPU upgradeable ... Not easy to do ( you have to open the machine ), but still doable
https://www.macrumors.com/2017/06/08...vable-ram-cpu/

So you can upgrade RAM in a procedure that is a royal pita, then. Wow.
Still it has a built in screen, built in fans and no pcie or hard drive space.

Not very usable in my recording studio where computers are in a server room...
Old 8th June 2017
  #851
Gear Addict
 
Night Stalker's Avatar
 

I think Mr Claborn just loves stirring the pot
Old 8th June 2017
  #852
Gear Addict
 

I have very old 5.1 mac pro cheese grater that's just chugging away! Ok, it's not mega fast (its just 2.8 quad xeon) and it was a lot of cash New but its 7 years old and just working!!!! and hope to get 3 or 4 more years I don't make a living with music (so you take my opinion as you wish) though I have added pcie sdd

I want stuff to just Work !!!!!

But let's do the maths it was £2000 new for mac 5.1 (+ Screen) that over 10 years (free software upgrades) sdd was £140 (card and sm951 256meg)

So £214 ruff less than $280 a year or around $5 a week (if got pro studio I spending more than on loo roll's to quote someone else)

I have nice little play studio But the NEW cost of Mac or PC is pro less than 10% of my toys the Mac may be double a PC but If get 2 or 3 extra years and don't pay for OS upgrades, As I can't see many still using Xp the cost is prob closer to 10% more for what want to use

But If got Pro Studio I would just go brand new spanking every Mac 3 years with Apple care it's less than 1% of studio costs (100k min set up and easy 10x that ) if breaks Apple fix it !! You get 1/2 back second-hand 3 years and Go get a new one !!!!

But day of downtime could cost you more than whole new computer

I would like Apple to make their computer just work the big thing with Old mac pro is it can work 24/7 for 10 years
Old 8th June 2017
  #853
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by emearg_s View Post
I have very old 5.1 mac pro cheese grater that's just chugging away! Ok, it's not mega fast (its just 2.8 quad xeon) and it was a lot of cash New but its 7 years old and just working!!!! and hope to get 3 or 4 more years I don't make a living with music (so you take my opinion as you wish) though I have added pcie sdd

I want stuff to just Work !!!!!

But let's do the maths it was £2000 new for mac 5.1 (+ Screen) that over 10 years (free software upgrades) sdd was £140 (card and sm951 256meg)

So £214 ruff less than $280 a year or around $5 a week (if got pro studio I spending more than on loo roll's to quote someone else)

I have nice little play studio But the NEW cost of Mac or PC is pro less than 10% of my toys the Mac may be double a PC but If get 2 or 3 extra years and don't pay for OS upgrades, As I can't see many still using Xp the cost is prob closer to 10% more for what want to use

But If got Pro Studio I would just go brand new spanking every Mac 3 years with Apple care it's less than 1% of studio costs (100k min set up and easy 10x that ) if breaks Apple fix it !! You get 1/2 back second-hand 3 years and Go get a new one !!!!

But day of downtime could cost you more than whole new computer

I would like Apple to make their computer just work the big thing with Old mac pro is it can work 24/7 for 10 years
If Apple would use magnets or screws instead of glue it really wouldn't be that bad. That being said iMacs aren't really that hard to upgrade once the screen comes off. The problem is the glue. Every time you open the iMac you have to make sure you have the glue strips on hand for the iMac to put the screen back in place. That's annoying to say the least and other AIO's that are just as thin and powerful have relatively easy access to the internals.
Old 9th June 2017
  #854
Lives for gear
 
stratology's Avatar
 

Here's John Gruber's WWDC 2017 talk with Craig Federighi and Phil Schiller. They talk at length about the pro market.




Last edited by stratology; 11th June 2017 at 03:40 PM.. Reason: AAARGH - looks like I accidentally posted the link to the 2016 talk instead of the 2017 talk - fixed
Old 9th June 2017
  #855
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spaceman View Post
Surprise ! The new iMacs are RAM and CPU upgradeable ... Not easy to do ( you have to open the machine ), but still doable
https://www.macrumors.com/2017/06/08...vable-ram-cpu/
Well, it's not really upgradable from a consumer point of view. It will be easier to customise its machine on order (or repair/recycle it later). So its a clever move... for the builder.
Old 9th June 2017
  #856
Lives for gear
 
stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
A powerful computer nowadays does not have to be expensive.
This discussion has been repeated over and over for about a million times.


You are right that you can have a 'powerful' PC for less money than a similar Mac as long as:

- you ignore total cost of ownership
- you ignore resale value
- you evaluate computers the way it was done in the 1990s (CPU speed and RAM tunnel vision)
- you ignore the value of software - both the OS and included apps
- you ignore the quality and speed of connections to peripherals
- you ignore build quality and materials
- you ignore the value of design (meaning actual design, like the design of trackpads, not 'looks')
- you ignore durability
- you ignore follow up cost for pro software (compare the price of Motion to similar PC apps. Or developer tools. Or FCP.)
- you ignore time spent for maintenance
- you ignore the speed of OS development
- you ignore integration with other computing devices
- you ignore actual customer satisfaction as a valid metric
Old 9th June 2017
  #857
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
This discussion has been repeated over and over for about a million times.

You are right that you can have a 'powerful' PC for less money than a similar Mac
You've just pulled Leon's quote from the context.. and started from there with your own agenda full of very subjective things.

But overall meaning of his post was quite different though and to me it isn't praise of cheap PCs.

Michal
Old 9th June 2017
  #858
Lives for gear
 
stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by msmucr View Post
You've just pulled Leon's quote from the context.. and started from there with your own agenda full of very subjective things.

But overall meaning of his post was quite different though and to me it isn't praise of cheap PCs.
Not really. I just commented on the point I disagree with, which makes sense in the context of the thread and previous posts.


I agree with the rest of DAW PLUS's post, he made good points.
Old 9th June 2017
  #859
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
This discussion has been repeated over and over for about a million times.


You are right that you can have a 'powerful' PC for less money than a similar Mac as long as:

- you ignore total cost of ownership
- you ignore resale value
- you evaluate computers the way it was done in the 1990s (CPU speed and RAM tunnel vision)
- you ignore the value of software - both the OS and included apps
- you ignore the quality and speed of connections to peripherals
- you ignore build quality and materials
- you ignore the value of design (meaning actual design, like the design of trackpads, not 'looks')
- you ignore durability
- you ignore follow up cost for pro software (compare the price of Motion to similar PC apps. Or developer tools. Or FCP.)
- you ignore time spent for maintenance
- you ignore the speed of OS development
- you ignore integration with other computing devices
- you ignore actual customer satisfaction as a valid metric

Not only are you taking Leon's line of text out of context as Michal already pointed out. Not only are you rudely making all sorts of baseless assumptions about what Leon is or isn't ignoring (especially as he addresses some of the points you make in the very post you quoted!), but you are also wrong on many points or the points are just as valid for PCs.

Just one question, out of curiosity, did you start using Logic on a Mac or on a PC?

Alistair
Old 9th June 2017
  #860
"iMac Pro cost blows away similar Lenovo workstation, DIY builders struggle to meet price with fewer features"

http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/...fewer-features
Old 9th June 2017
  #861
Gear Maniac
 
tsrono's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexff View Post
"iMac Pro cost blows away similar Lenovo workstation, DIY builders struggle to meet price with fewer features"

iMac Pro cost blows away similar Lenovo workstation, DIY builders struggle to meet price with fewer features
"The PC build, and the Lenovo workstation can be had now, without having to wait for the iMac Pro." edit: in other words, the PC builds could come down in price significantly by the time the iMac Pro is actually available.

Yeah, they're comparing actual computers you can build and use today to something that is at least 6 months away, which could of course change drastically, and is based on unknown processors. The iMac Pro is just a dream for the time being, as is the upcoming Mac Pro modular whatever. That said, I'm sure the iMac Pro will be perfect for some users, and good for them if they'll be in the market for it then.
Old 9th June 2017
  #862
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexff View Post
"Mac Pro cost blows away similar Lenovo workstation, DIY builders struggle to meet price with fewer features"
Nothing new..
results of similar calculations Apple vs PC were always about the same as far I can remember. Even in times of G5s, Mac Pros or some All-in-ones with comparable specs.. someone then opened some Dell/HP price list or based some retail component list at some Xeon board (like Supermicro or ASUS).. and find out, that miracles doesn't happen.. or not so surprisingly.. some people can buy similarly specced PC for the same money, if they like the other platform for some reason.

Complaints weren't and aren't about high price of used parts, this isn't true. You can easily pay more for retail components.
But about price of more or less fixed packages, which includes many "unnecessary" or "luxury" parts for their use case, because for some given budget they would rather mix quite different setup. Apple never had any product based on "middle-ground" enthusiast components.. It was essentially various kinds of office PCs (although with rather powerful top models, with good quality and IMO absolutely satisfactory performance for vast majority of people here) and then was steep jump to Xeons, ECC memory, dual sockets at premium price. Pro models for the people, who makes money with those computers. Does that fit to anyone, certainly not.

But that's life and natural disadvantage from picking a platform, which completely relies on product decisions of one unpredictable vendor without any direct competition at his closed ecosystem. Nothing really surprising there.. And for sure some people prefer certain advantages of such closed environment.

Michal
Old 9th June 2017
  #863
Lives for gear
 
Joe Porto's Avatar
 

Kind of wish they never said anything bout the iMac Pro. I absolutely do not need it for audio, but now I want it....lol.

What I need to do is come to my senses and just order a loaded 27" iMac now to replace my 2015 MBP.
Old 9th June 2017
  #864
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexff View Post
"iMac Pro cost blows away similar Lenovo workstation, DIY builders struggle to meet price with fewer features"

iMac Pro cost blows away similar Lenovo workstation, DIY builders struggle to meet price with fewer features

Talk about a click bait title! They should have stopped writing after the very first line of text: "Little is still known about the "entry-level" iMac Pro...". I don't expect any kind of truth from that type of article... But let's make sure!

I specced out a PC build that would be more powerful than the entry level iMac Pro (based on known specs):

Asus x99 10G WS (M.2, U.2, 10x SATA-600, 7x PCIe 3.0 16x, 2x 10GB Ethernet, 4x USB2.0, 8x USB3.0, 2x USB3.1)
Intel Core i7 6950X (10 Core)
G.Skill Ripjaws V F4-3400C16Q-64GVR (64 GB. Twice that of the iMac)
AMD Radeon Nova (64 CU 16GB HBM2. The bigger brother of what the entry level iMac will have)
Samsung 960 Pro 1TB
4x TB 3.0 cards (not really needed but just to shut up the people that don't get that true pro machines have plenty of internal slots for expansion).
Silverstone PSU
Noctua cooler
Nanoxia casing

Note that the most expensive part in this build by far is the CPU. I could go for a much cheaper 8 core CPU but the whole point was to spec a build that would be more powerful.

This comes to a grand total of 4629 Euro. It doesn't include the screen but IMO built in screens are a negative, not a positive. (I already have 3 screens).

So, in conclusion, much more powerful than the not yet available iMac Pro and cheaper! And before anyone tells me that 4629 Euro is more than $4999 USD, the current entry level 8 Core Mac Pro is $3999 USD in the US or € 4.649,00 Euro here in the Netherlands. Based on the way Apple price things in Europe and the US, the iMac Pro will be MUCH more expensive than the build I just specced.

Alistair
Old 9th June 2017
  #865
Lives for gear
 
T_R_S's Avatar
I absolutely f*c*ing hate how the Peewee wieners need to chime in on threads about new Apple hardware.
I never seem have the time to go to Windows section of a website and bash new the new Chromebooks or MS Surface Books...
Get a life please ....
Old 10th June 2017
  #866
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Porto View Post
Kind of wish they never said anything bout the iMac Pro. I absolutely do not need it for audio, but now I want it....lol.

What I need to do is come to my senses and just order a loaded 27" iMac now to replace my 2015 MBP.
The availability of the iMac Pro in December is great news, as was the announcement that Apple is working on a modular Mac Pro.

In the last 5-10 years most of the performance increases in desktop chips has been happening with GPUs not in x86 CPUs. Innovation is driven by competition (AMD/Nividia), VR/AR being the 'next big thing' not to mention the bigger shift from desktop to mobile, ARM anyone?

Given that LPX and plugins run on the CPU and don't/can't tap into the GPU, shouldn't people be complaining about Intel and AMD? Intel for small performance increases in each generation and AMD for not effectively competing with Intel? In fact in the last 7 years most Mac performance gains have come from the move to SSDs and moving storage and peripherals to the PCIe bus.

Everyone's use case is different, personally I will take a look at the iMac Pro but if I bought one it wouldn't be because my 2012 iMac (SSD 3.4 quad i7) can't satisfactory run my LPX projects, it would be for other reasons....
Old 10th June 2017
  #867
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S View Post
I absolutely f*c*ing hate how the Peewee wieners need to chime in on threads about new Apple hardware.
I never seem have the time to go to Windows section of a website and bash new the new Chromebooks or MS Surface Books...
Get a life please ....
Absolutely!

Not everybody wants to spend hours, days, weeks and years of their lives:
  • researching computer parts
  • compare pricing of computer parts
  • buying computer parts from multiple vendors
  • building computers from parts from multiple vendors
  • troubleshooting when their custom multi vendor creation doesn't work
  • then all the hassles or getting the BIOS, OS, drivers and apps working

A lot of people are not interested in this kind of stuff, and are more than happy to pay someone else to take care of this stuff for them. Personally I am happy that my computer/OS/DAW is from one vendor, and I don't have to do all the activities that some people love doing. I have more time for doing what I like doing.

Now if someone finds all the activities above interesting and worthwhile way to spend their life I am happy for them. They will have great bragging rights on computer building forums, will have saved money and can claim they have the fastest cheapest system at a particular point in time. But on a threads like this these guys are just trolling....

Last edited by scottkrk; 10th June 2017 at 04:58 AM..
Old 10th June 2017
  #868
Gear Nut
 

Its free speech. Snowflakes just go back to your safe space if you don't want to read what you don't agree.
Old 10th June 2017
  #869
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexff View Post
"iMac Pro cost blows away similar Lenovo workstation, DIY builders struggle to meet price with fewer features"

iMac Pro cost blows away similar Lenovo workstation, DIY builders struggle to meet price with fewer features
Similar situation when the 2013 Mac Pro first was first announced. Although the TOTL iMac beat out the entry quad-core version in both single and multi-core CPU performance, at least in Geekbench results.
Old 10th June 2017
  #870
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
This comes to a grand total of 4629 Euro. It doesn't include the screen but IMO built in screens are a negative, not a positive. (I already have 3 screens).
Whist I respect your knowledge on the subject is far greater than mine..come on. You can't just ignore the 5k screen in your costing! Besides, the big 5k screen is basically the selling point for those who buy iMacs..
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump