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Tim Cook on Mac Desktop commitment Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 6th June 2017
  #811
Tui
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lestermagneto View Post
... but doesn't even Apples own Logic have issues with core spreading with Kontakt etc? (with workarounds I somewhat remember but....)
I think that's a bit of a myth. I regularly use multi-GB libraries in Kontakt, at the lowest latency possible. I often spend time on squeezing out the last bit of performance, so I'm quite familiar with the relevant settings in Logic and Kontakt. IME, Kontakt performs pretty much the same, if not exactly the same, whether in standalone mode or from within Logic. This tells me that Logic doesn't add any significant overheads or distributes the load "wrong". In fact, recently I've been impressed with how well multithreading works with newer OS'... Considerable progress has been made, when I compare performance of Mavericks with El Capitan, which is what I now use.
Old 6th June 2017
  #812
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
I think that's a bit of a myth. I regularly use multi-GB libraries in Kontakt, at the lowest latency possible. I often spend time on squeezing out the last bit of performance, so I'm quite familiar with the relevant settings in Logic and Kontakt. IME, Kontakt performs pretty much the same, if not exactly the same, whether in standalone mode or from within Logic. This tells me that Logic doesn't add any significant overheads or distributes the load "wrong". In fact, recently I've been impressed with how well multithreading works with newer OS'... Considerable progress has been made, when I compare performance of Mavericks with El Capitan, which is what I now use.
That's good to hear. A lot of my orchestral composer friends had issues back in the day ( a few years back), and could demonstratively show me how putting a kontakt instance on a different track or whatnot would help distribute load etc... but this was awhiles back... so I'm sure it was fixed either on Logic's side, or whatever NI has done... (still not sure whether or not to use multiprocessor support in Kontakt while using it in daw etc...).... but my stuff is working.. And I didn't mean to criticize Logic, ime it is tremendously efficient cpu wise... I am using older OSX's though, 10.8.5/10.9.5 for various hardware/software/client/legacy projects taking forever reasons...
Old 7th June 2017
  #813
Tui
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lestermagneto View Post
That's good to hear. A lot of my orchestral composer friends had issues back in the day ( a few years back), and could demonstratively show me how putting a kontakt instance on a different track or whatnot would help distribute load etc... but this was awhiles back... so I'm sure it was fixed either on Logic's side, or whatever NI has done... (still not sure whether or not to use multiprocessor support in Kontakt while using it in daw etc...).... but my stuff is working.. And I didn't mean to criticize Logic, ime it is tremendously efficient cpu wise... I am using older OSX's though, 10.8.5/10.9.5 for various hardware/software/client/legacy projects taking forever reasons...
Yeah, I understand. I've been quite a Mavericks fan as it is quite possibly the most stable OS Apple ever released. Then, a few weeks ago, I wanted to try out the new Waves piano... Not that I expected it to be that special, but I was intrigued. The plugin requires 10.10 minimum, so I gave 10.11 a try. El Capitan has a *ton* of bugs - graphics and audio - but latency performance is considerably better than under Mavericks, which is a big deal to me as I use computers for practising, too.

Even though we hear practically nothing directly from the devs at Apple - or NI for that matter - it is quite apparent that they're still tweaking the code, and they're making progress.

It's good to feel good about Apple, on occasion.
Old 7th June 2017
  #814
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post

Cross platform session transfer is a breeze for years now. Our recorder.1 users transfer backups back and forth between the recorder and their Macbooks without issues and top speed.


For that amount you get a 20 core HDX1 system including license...fully expandable all in 4U, fully warranty
HDX - XI-MACHINES
I know you guys are macheads, just putting a bit of perspective regarding complexity.
Yeah I get that, and I know part of it is legacy/what people are used to...I'd just a) never want to deal with Windows 10, I really don't like the way Windows does things - ever - and b) everyone we work with is Mac based anyway. As soon as I get requests for a Windows system...we'll get one.

I was really just refuting Clayborn's claim that "pros aren't buying Macs now". They really are.
Old 7th June 2017
  #815
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
Yeah, I understand. I've been quite a Mavericks fan as it is quite possibly the most stable OS Apple ever released.
I have always had a sweet spot in my heart for Snow Leopard myself... but yeah, I hear you...! Not happy with Tim Cooks yearly updates with more concern obviously on things "us" guys need so much as integrating social media and iOS etc... which breaks current audio, forces NI and everyone else blah blah blah... oh well. so it goes. Don't want to put my system in a time capsule, but after doing this for so long, and having so much crap and the update shuffle.... i have grown weary... they are slowly killing my soul...
Old 7th June 2017
  #816
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I was really just refuting Clayborn's claim that "pros aren't buying Macs now". They really are.
i never said pros dont buy macs. i said they don't buy brand new, overpriced macs. we buy used or build hackintoshes.
Old 7th June 2017
  #817
I haven't read much of this thread at all, so it may have been mentioned already...

but why doesn't Apple offer Nvidia graphics options? I don't work with video at all, but I thought CUDA was a big selling point for a bunch of video editing apps like Premiere (which seems to be taking over the world after Apple dropped the ball with FCP)?







...having just typed that, I seem to have answered my own question about why Apple don't use Nvidia graphics cards.
Old 7th June 2017
  #818
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claborn View Post
if that's the case, I'd be saving that company millions lol 20k to build a writing studio? lol wow

its whatever, gearslutz seem to want to spend money than make it. consumerslutz
Lol.

Firstly, remember that's Aus$ not US, so it's more like 15k in your money.

Secondly, you don't know what the client base is, or what the expectation is. Sure I could have put a Warm WA87, a GAP73 + cheap compressor, the cheapest interface I could find and some KRKs or something in there, and most people would still be happy.

Instead, we've got a "real" 87, an RND Shelford, a new Ensemble, and some ATCs.

Makes the room more versatile, is more fitting to the environment (it's a former mastering room in the building of a major label), and thus far has been considered "money well spent".

more corporateslutz or proslutz than consumerslutz. Still - we're not the only ones spending, which is my whole point. Every upgrade or new studio here has been similar in terms of computers (I don't know any pro rooms running hacks or windows, though as you say many are still the old-style mac pros). Actually I've seen a fair few iMacs too - that combined with a Sonnet chassis is quite a popular rig for HDX if you really can't justify the Trash can (to bring some sense of relevance back to this thread. Wouldn't work for me personally (I like having my monitor mounted centre of the console) but I see studios set up like that.
Old 7th June 2017
  #819
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claborn View Post
i never said pros dont buy macs. i said they don't buy brand new, overpriced macs. we buy used or build hackintoshes.
I beg to differ. Some pros don't buy or build hacks; many do buy new macs. AS I've said, there's 3 in this room right now.
Old 7th June 2017
  #820
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who more pro than Mick Guzauski?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uugshogPFE

Some buy new, some buy old, some build hackintosh. Who cares.
Old 7th June 2017
  #821
Gear Maniac
 

Seriously, I ran 3 x Hackintoshes as VE Pro slave machines for a few years when I was doing a lot of weekly TV scoring, not even as my main DAW computers, and it was a major PITA. One "rogue" plugin, or every time I had to do an OS upgrade it was absolute hell! If you can get one to work, you much pretty much leave it as it is
and forget about fiddling too much with it, or doing too many installs or upgrades. Not for the faint of heart! A Hackintosh requires some serious attention, patience and someone who's prepared to invest time and effort into keeping it running trouble-free. In the end, I bought 3 cheap quad core i7 server Mac Mini's as slave computers to run my libraries on and haven't had to worry since.
Old 7th June 2017
  #822
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Night Stalker's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Claborn View Post
if that's the case, I'd be saving that company millions lol 20k to build a writing studio? lol wow

its whatever, gearslutz seem to want to spend money than make it. consumerslutz
There is also a high end aspect to the industry, it's not all low end.
HORSES FOR COURSES
Old 7th June 2017
  #823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Night Stalker View Post
There is also a high end aspect to the industry, it's not all low end.
HORSES FOR COURSES
oh really?? i had no idea such thing existed!
Old 7th June 2017
  #824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by formusic View Post
Seriously, I ran 3 x Hackintoshes as VE Pro slave machines for a few years when I was doing a lot of weekly TV scoring, not even as my main DAW computers, and it was a major PITA. One "rogue" plugin, or every time I had to do an OS upgrade it was absolute hell! If you can get one to work, you much pretty much leave it as it is
and forget about fiddling too much with it, or doing too many installs or upgrades. Not for the faint of heart! A Hackintosh requires some serious attention, patience and someone who's prepared to invest time and effort into keeping it running trouble-free. In the end, I bought 3 cheap quad core i7 server Mac Mini's as slave computers to run my libraries on and haven't had to worry since.
haha i can respect that, at least you gave it a solid effort!
Old 7th June 2017
  #825
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Yeah I get that, and I know part of it is legacy/what people are used to...I'd just a) never want to deal with Windows 10, I really don't like the way Windows does things - ever - and b) everyone we work with is Mac based anyway. As soon as I get requests for a Windows system...we'll get one.
Yeah, I understand that, it is all about ecosystem. Just saying things are getting really close, many decisions regarding Windows (or against it) are based on old or wrong info, which is the main reason I pop up in Apple threads... I'm not telling anyone to use Windows, especially not if they prefer OSX, but I do want people to see through the piles of nonsense which often is posted, even by Windows fanboys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LDStudios View Post
but why doesn't Apple offer Nvidia graphics options?
I think there are a few points:
-AMD offers better prices per FLOP, which allows them to boast with TFLOPS while having a "reasonable" price.
-AMD most likely is more flexible towards Apple driver development wishes
-CUDA will fade out for the Vulkan graphics API which is cross platform


Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Instead, we've got a "real" 87, an RND Shelford, a new Ensemble, and some ATCs.
So being a slut moderator doesn't make you a moderate slut...
Old 7th June 2017
  #826
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Claborn View Post
thats what im talking about!! innovation, tinkering, real engineering!

you guys can keep your 8k discussion, we aren't playing on the same field apparently.
Yes, but if you factor in the tinkering time those mackintoshes cost way more than people are quoting.

I'm charged out at $190/hr here at work. If it took me a day to fcuk around putting my computer together id have spent more than if I just bought a Mac off the shelf.

To many professionals "time is money" is more of a factor than "money is money".

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I was really just refuting Clayborn's claim that "pros aren't buying Macs now". They really are.
Here in my shared office space we have 2 Architecture Companies, one Marketing Company and one head office for a Fashion Shop. There are 10 iMacs, a MacBook Air and one Dell PC. 5 of the iMacs are running Windows.
Old 7th June 2017
  #827
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Claborn View Post
oh really?? i had no idea such thing existed!

Awareness is the first step, lol
Old 7th June 2017
  #828
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jlaws's Avatar
This thread is a 2017 rehash of the trashcan thread when it came out. The people who liked it will like this one and the people who didn't won't like the iMac pro, either. It has many of the same upsides and downsides as before, except they added a 5k screen. I wouldn't mind having one, but then I could build 2 18 core windows machines for the same price as it will likely come out to. If money weren't a consideration, it's not a bad buy. It's just not a value buy.
Old 7th June 2017
  #829
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MusiKLover's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Lol.

Firstly, remember that's Aus$ not US, so it's more like 15k in your money.

Secondly, you don't know what the client base is, or what the expectation is. Sure I could have put a Warm WA87, a GAP73 + cheap compressor, the cheapest interface I could find and some KRKs or something in there, and most people would still be...
Hey man, KRK has several models in their lineup. Perhaps you feel some of them are more inferior, but some are pretty decent. I suppose the holy war does not only apply to Macs and PCs.

https://ask.audio/articles/review-kr...tudio-monitors
Old 7th June 2017
  #830
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MusiKLover View Post
Hey man, KRK has several models in their lineup. Perhaps you feel some of them are more inferior, but some are pretty decent. I suppose the holy war does not only apply to Macs and PCs.
I suppose, KRK was mentioned just as an example of commonly used budget speakers.. So I don't feel, it's any KRK stance.
But the point was, their selection of tools for that room was not driven just by budget.

Michal
Old 7th June 2017
  #831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msmucr View Post
I suppose, KRK was mentioned just as an example of commonly used budget speakers.. So I don't feel, it's any KRK stance.
But the point was, their selection of tools for that room was not driven just by budget.

Michal
Understood, but the relatively new V8 S4s, reviewed this past January by Joe Albano, are not budget monitors. I suppose I'm attempting to dispel illusion.
Old 7th June 2017
  #832
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lestermagneto's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by formusic View Post
Seriously, I ran 3 x Hackintoshes as VE Pro slave machines for a few years when I was doing a lot of weekly TV scoring, not even as my main DAW computers, and it was a major PITA. One "rogue" plugin, or every time I had to do an OS upgrade it was absolute hell! If you can get one to work, you much pretty much leave it as it is
and forget about fiddling too much with it, or doing too many installs or upgrades. Not for the faint of heart! A Hackintosh requires some serious attention, patience and someone who's prepared to invest time and effort into keeping it running trouble-free. In the end, I bought 3 cheap quad core i7 server Mac Mini's as slave computers to run my libraries on and haven't had to worry since.
Yeah, I heard the same, and I have too many plugins etc so didn't want to go down that path, and spend half my time tinkering etc... but from what I hear, over the last year or so it has gotten a lot better... not sure if that is true, and certainly not sure enough that I am going to do it... but seems a more reasonable afternoon project now with less tinkering on a weekly basis etc then it was even 2 years ago... but I could be massively misinformed..
Old 7th June 2017
  #833
Gear Maniac
 

Speaking of the Mac Pro trashcan, at first I was dead against it, thought it was joke, too expensive, too many essential extras (PCIe to TB chassis, TG Black Magic Multidock to house SSD's - at that stage, still really expensive, etc...) and made do with my old Mac Pro 8-core tower till it absolutely croaked one day. At which point, I built a couple of Hackintoshes, besides the 3 I already had as VE Pro slave machines, by totally refurbishing a couple of older PC's I had lying around, keeping only the 4U rackmount cases they were in and decent power supplies I had put in them. So everything new. Motherboard, CPU, graphics, RAM, etc... Not a huge expense, probably under a grand for each computer. I got both going, but neither of them really worked 100%. On both of them, playing QT movies in Logic would make Logic crash instantly.
I tried DP and Cubase and both ran OK, but QT was still causing random crashes. I farted around with those 2 computers for several months and kept experiencing weird behaviour on bootup, everyday something different might happen randomly all of a sudden. As a result, I was so stressed out and not enjoying the work process, that I ended up passing up some very lucrative jobs, as I just didn't feel confident or inspired anymore. Then, I got offered to do the score for a small budget indie movie, so I thought, OK, enough "experiments", retired both Hackintoshes and ordered the biggest, most humongous, spec'd out trashcan Mac Pro I could buy from the States.
I blew a decent chunk out of my composer fee, but worked on the movie for 3 months solid every day, and the computer turned out to be on of the most enjoyable, hassle-free purchases I've ever made! Not one crash, it ran and ran, super zippy, not one hiccup and it just lapped up everything I threw at it, making the experience and the job really smooth, fun and inspiring again. As much as I didn't want to spend that kind of money, it was either spend it and get the job done properly, on time, budget and hassle-free, or lose the gig while trying to scratch my head with the Hackintoshes. For some, they may work very well and give them everything they need, for me doing really large sessions with enormous orchestral MIDI templates, running QT, etc..., it just didn't. My trashcan Mac Pro is still there, going strong day in, day out, and now also running a Pro Tools HDX rig with 64 channels of MADI I/O like a dream! Sometimes, you just got to bite the bullet, spend the cash and invest in a little peace of mind. It's hard enough finding work these days, you may as well enjoy some peace of mind when you do!
Old 7th June 2017
  #834
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lestermagneto's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by formusic View Post
Speaking of the Mac Pro trashcan, at first I was dead against it, thought it was joke, too expensive, too many essential extras (PCIe to TB chassis, TG Black Magic Multidock to house SSD's - at that stage, still really expensive, etc...) and made do with my old Mac Pro 8-core tower till it absolutely croaked one day. At which point, I built a couple of Hackintoshes, besides the 3 I already had as VE Pro slave machines, by totally refurbishing a couple of older PC's I had lying around, keeping only the 4U rackmount cases they were in and decent power supplies I had put in them. So everything new. Motherboard, CPU, graphics, RAM, etc... Not a huge expense, probably under a grand for each computer. I got both going, but neither of them really worked 100%. On both of them, playing QT movies in Logic would make Logic crash instantly.
I tried DP and Cubase and both ran OK, but QT was still causing random crashes. I farted around with those 2 computers for several months and kept experiencing weird behaviour on bootup, everyday something different might happen randomly all of a sudden. As a result, I was so stressed out and not enjoying the work process, that I ended up passing up some very lucrative jobs, as I just didn't feel confident or inspired anymore. Then, I got offered to do the score for a small budget indie movie, so I thought, OK, enough "experiments", retired both Hackintoshes and ordered the biggest, most humongous, spec'd out trashcan Mac Pro I could buy from the States.
I blew a decent chunk out of my composer fee, but worked on the movie for 3 months solid every day, and the computer turned out to be on of the most enjoyable, hassle-free purchases I've ever made! Not one crash, it ran and ran, super zippy, not one hiccup and it just lapped up everything I threw at it, making the experience and the job really smooth, fun and inspiring again. As much as I didn't want to spend that kind of money, it was either spend it and get the job done properly, on time, budget and hassle-free, or lose the gig while trying to scratch my head with the Hackintoshes. For some, they may work very well and give them everything they need, for me doing really large sessions with enormous orchestral MIDI templates, running QT, etc..., it just didn't. My trashcan Mac Pro is still there, going strong day in, day out, and now also running a Pro Tools HDX rig with 64 channels of MADI I/O like a dream! Sometimes, you just got to bite the bullet, spend the cash and invest in a little peace of mind. It's hard enough finding work these days, you may as well enjoy some peace of mind when you do!
That all makes sense to me!
Old 7th June 2017
  #835
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This thread truely saddens me. I thought the engineers of the world were more savvy than to have to resort to buying, full retail, to have a peace of mind? Spending $5k on one computer gives you peace of mind?

So what's there to discuss then? Buy whatever apple releases, seeing how you guys refuse/can't do anything else.
Old 7th June 2017
  #836
Lives for gear
Certainly most audio folk do not "need" the new imac pro. The regular imac with i7, 32G of RAM and 1TB SSD (for ~$3K) looks like a solid buy though for 90%+ of folk. WRT to expense - this always makes me laugh...
My vocal chain costs more
Every acoustic guitar I own costs more
My interface costs only a little less
Till very recent, the mogami in my room costs more
I have mics that cost more
My monitors cost the same
I also built a couple of hacks 5 years ago to prolong the life of PCIx cards. 1 year experiment that went OK but had all the troubles you have seen written here...

Trashcan MacPro - overspeced for what I needed but for 3 years - 100% uptime - zero issues. Best Mac for me since the 9600. I am looking hard at a new regular imac as described above to further simplify my setup.


But if I needed the power - imac pro looks darned good in many ways...
Old 7th June 2017
  #837
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my mac mini 2012 just wasn't cutting it .... it couldn't power all the drives and peripherals I needed... to me a computer is just about the worst investment ever... my wall of guitars will be worth more in years to come... what's a 10 year old computer worth ?
I felt the mac mini was just about worth its ticket price, I was holding out to see what Apple were gonna do but eventually went hack again, it's my 3rd one so I'm well aware of its pitfalls, my uber hack cost the same as the secondhand value of my mac mini
with 20 years invested in Apple/Logic there's no way I'm gonna change platform, but there's no way I'm gonna bin my hard earnt on such a depreciative product..
I guess a pro mac desktop is always going to be premium priced, and I'm really happy to see Apple's commitment to the desktop form
Old 7th June 2017
  #838
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProPower View Post
Trashcan MacPro - overspeced for what I needed but for 3 years - 100% uptime - zero issues. Best Mac for me since the 9600. I am looking hard at a new regular imac as described above to further simplify my setup.
I think that's the key: the uptime and lack of hassles. The last time a Mac had a system crash on me was in 2003. Windows 7 and 10 have been pretty stable on my machines, but I still get crashes fairly frequently on Windows 10 (currently around one crash every week or two).

The main advantages to Windows for me are the much larger range of choices when it comes to hardware; the much better options for expansion, upgrade, and repair; the lower equipment costs; and the larger range of apps. But the downside is that Windows machines run Windows. I really like Windows, but in my experience the Mac environment is more stable and mature (in the sense of having more attention to detail).

It that worth a price premium? Certainly for some people. But I think the main reason people are willing to pay the premium for Macs is that if you're in the Mac environment it's time-consuming and expensive to switch. I switched from Mac to Windows last year and while I don't regret it much, my productivity suffered during the transition and I spent a lot of money on apps (some of which were free on the Mac platform but didn't have any free equivalents on Windows that were up to the same par). Why go through that pain if you don't need to?

In part it depends on how often you replace your equipment. If you tend to keep computers a long time (my average is 6-7 years), that means you're going to be buying roughly 2 computers per decade and the price premium split out over those 10 years isn't very significant. If you upgrade your computer every 2 years, the price premium becomes more of an issue because those premiums add up.
Old 7th June 2017
  #839
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stratology's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lestermagneto View Post
I have always had a sweet spot in my heart for Snow Leopard myself
Snow Leopard had arguably the best implementation of Exposé and Spaces ever - very useful if you like to use more than 6 Desktops (which I did at the time). But apart from that, it can't hold a candle to Sierra.



Quote:
Originally Posted by lestermagneto View Post
Not happy with Tim Cooks yearly updates with more concern obviously on things "us" guys need so much as integrating social media and iOS etc...
I like the annual updates. There's a reason why you don't find any botnets that consist of Macs.

Like you, I don't care about any of the social media features. These are the ones that get most of the PR, because they're relevant to the largest part of the user base.
The new features relevant to us don't get much PR, but are still there - like the storage management in Sierra, or the improved overall performance.



Quote:
Originally Posted by lestermagneto View Post
which breaks current audio, forces NI and everyone else blah blah blah...
Apple doesn't break audio.
Many audio developers are good at keeping up with changes in macOS (PSP, Motu, Presonus, ...), because that's their job. Some others aren't so good and always lag behind...
Old 8th June 2017
  #840
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusiKLover View Post
Understood, but the relatively new V8 S4s, reviewed this past January by Joe Albano, are not budget monitors. I suppose I'm attempting to dispel illusion.
It was just a throwaway comment...don't take it to heart! Insert budget monitors of your choice versus 10k ATCs if it makes you feel better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Claborn View Post
This thread truely saddens me. I thought the engineers of the world were more savvy than to have to resort to buying, full retail, to have a peace of mind? Spending $5k on one computer gives you peace of mind?

So what's there to discuss then? Buy whatever apple releases, seeing how you guys refuse/can't do anything else.
It's kinda weird that you can't see why spending a bit more on piece of mind is important for those who depend on their tools. For non essential purchases I'm happy to go 2nd hand; for stuff I rely on, I go to a dealer and pay more but have that recourse. It's important with bigger businesses - both to have the line of support, but also to show you've chosen the best route and not cut corners. If there's a problem, you can prove you've taken the best possible route and couldn't have done more. That can be important with some clients (and some bosses!).

There's nothing wrong with being a bit of a wheeler dealer and getting the best deal and making compromises, but there's times and places to do that. For me, that's not the machine I make my living with.
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