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Tim Cook on Mac Desktop commitment Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 25th February 2017
  #511
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zephonic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tridelica View Post
Apple and MS are dinosaurs. I'm tired of being stuck on their Duopolistic plantation.

Music and audio vendors have failed because they haven't formed a consortium to design computing appliances that run effectively and transparently with music software and hardware.

People whine about how important competition is. It way past time to make MS and Apple irrelevant.
I have argued for a few years now that building their own OS and hardware is the logical next step for DAW developers.

The personal computer trend happened when hardware was expensive, but over the last two decades stuff has gotten exponentially cheaper and more powerful. And the internet has been the great equalizer. With ever more stuff transitioning to the cloud, the local OS has become much less of a factor than it used to be. The fact that people previously locked into Windows can now use Chromebooks for just about everything, tells you all you need to know.

There used to be this idea of hardware expandibility, but the VAST majority of computer users have laptops, which renders the point moot, and non-expandable phones or tablets don't seem to bother anybody.

So my position is, if the device can access the internet for updates, new plug-ins/VI's and whatever, why would it not be dedicated hardware? There really isn't any upside in continuing to use a general purpose computer.
Old 25th February 2017
  #512
qwe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zephonic View Post
I have argued for a few years now that building their own OS and hardware is the logical next step for DAW developers.
I think we need to be very careful about what is meant by the 'OS'.

The strict definition does not include the GUI/desktop/supplied apps and utilities etc.

All of which disappear from view if one plays a game in full screen, for example.


Quote:
Originally Posted by zephonic View Post
and non-expandable phones or tablets don't seem to bother anybody.
Not for the target market, perhaps, but I for one find the conveyor belt of this week's disposable product extremely bothersome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zephonic View Post
So my position is, if the device can access the internet for updates, new plug-ins/VI's and whatever, why would it not be dedicated hardware? There really isn't any upside in continuing to use a general purpose computer.
PCs are multi-purpose. That's why there's SIMD support on the CPU, plumbing within the OS for different applications, etc. Of course it would be better if the OS was custom-built for the specific purpose--but the question is how much benefit would this provide?

Almost all 'proprietary' platforms have fallen by the wayside--Muse Receptor for example.

In my view there are a lot of improvement that could be made to the GUI and integration with control surfaces. Even more so for portable applications. Fine idea but as a commerical proposition...?
Old 26th February 2017
  #513
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A prioprietary OS would demand a huge amount of resources to program and there's probably not that much benefit to be derived from it given that nowadays cpus have plenty of power to run as many vsts as most users would want. It would only be a small subsection of those using daws that need the increased efficiency of a dedicated OS and the number of people using daws is fairly low to begin with. Who would pay for such a thing?
Old 26th February 2017
  #514
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Originally Posted by jlaws View Post
A prioprietary OS would demand a huge amount of resources to program and there's probably not that much benefit to be derived from it given that nowadays cpus have plenty of power to run as many vsts as most users would want. It would only be a small subsection of those using daws that need the increased efficiency of a dedicated OS and the number of people using daws is fairly low to begin with. Who would pay for such a thing?
It'd make more sense for DAW and plug-in developers to do more efficient coding with the products they have rather than make a new Music OS.

It seems to me hardships and costs involved in making an OS often is underrated. That probably goes for most programming. That said, that there are multiple Linux and Unix varieties still going strong, some focused in different ways is indeed quite impressive. You can make music on those platforms too, but you don't have the same support from third party developers for the platform nor the apps. A Music OS would be up against the same reluctance.

Chances are at least macOS can be controlled tightly enough by the user in order to configure it to be beneficial for music making. If people co-operate on such endeavours some additional advantages would exist. If that is all it takes, then why would you make a whole new OS?

Last edited by Mikael B; 28th February 2017 at 04:07 AM..
Old 26th February 2017
  #515
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It's not about the OS. It's about controlling the entire experience. That means you're own hardware, and that means you require some level of OS.

Maybe people have the wrong idea about what an OS is? You don't need something like MacOS/Windows/iOS/Android. You could boot up the device and the only thing the user gets to see is the DAW (or whatever application it is). That way they'd never need to see the OS, so no need for a GUI or whatever. Just a basic kernel that boots, handles IO and launches the application.

Korg uses a Linux kernel for their Kronos keyboard. This stuff isn't exactly easy, but it has been done, and it is tried and tested. you wouldn't need to build this from the ground up. Most of it is already available in some form.

If you can buy a DAW computer that launches the app on startup, it connects to an online store for additional plugins/VI's/content or diagnostics/troubleshooting, what do you need everything else for?
Old 26th February 2017
  #516
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pulsar modular's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zephonic View Post
It's not about the OS. It's about controlling the entire experience. That means you're own hardware, and that means you require some level of OS.

Maybe people have the wrong idea about what an OS is? You don't need something like MacOS/Windows/iOS/Android. You could boot up the device and the only thing the user gets to see is the DAW (or whatever application it is). That way they'd never need to see the OS, so no need for a GUI or whatever. Just a basic kernel that boots, handles IO and launches the application.

Korg uses a Linux kernel for their Kronos keyboard. This stuff isn't exactly easy, but it has been done, and it is tried and tested. you wouldn't need to build this from the ground up. Most of it is already available in some form.

If you can buy a DAW computer that launches the app on startup, it connects to an online store for additional plugins/VI's/content or diagnostics/troubleshooting, what do you need everything else for?
If I can't use it to get on Gearslutz I'll pass.

But seriously, it would be great to have some simple DAW capabilities, at least for tracking, directly built into an audio interface with dsp, like a next gen Zen Tour or Apollo. The new Lynx Aurora records onto a micro SD card. It will be interesting to see how that evolves.
Old 26th February 2017
  #517
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jlaws's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by zephonic View Post
It's not about the OS. It's about controlling the entire experience. That means you're own hardware, and that means you require some level of OS.

Maybe people have the wrong idea about what an OS is? You don't need something like MacOS/Windows/iOS/Android. You could boot up the device and the only thing the user gets to see is the DAW (or whatever application it is). That way they'd never need to see the OS, so no need for a GUI or whatever. Just a basic kernel that boots, handles IO and launches the application.

Korg uses a Linux kernel for their Kronos keyboard. This stuff isn't exactly easy, but it has been done, and it is tried and tested. you wouldn't need to build this from the ground up. Most of it is already available in some form.

If you can buy a DAW computer that launches the app on startup, it connects to an online store for additional plugins/VI's/content or diagnostics/troubleshooting, what do you need everything else for?
Isn't that what pro tools hd setups provide once you open them full screen? Not only that, but they have the advantage of being able to go to gearslutz on the computer and many other things, to boot.

I guess I'm not seeing what advantage you'd have by locking people into an os that doesn't do anything else. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, though. If so, I apologize.
Old 26th February 2017
  #518
The issue with new platforms will always be compatibility, integration of 3rd party products and return of investment. Especially the latter is tough for the major companies involved, as their development team are all based on Windows/OSX coding, with Linux probably being a hobby for 1/3rd of those developers. Not even talking about something new or proprietary.
BeOS was as close as it got, it took years working on that only for Be to announce it would be an internet appliances only platform as it wasn't viable commercially. Which is a warning for all other purposes. Note that audio was not the only sector looking at/developing for BeOS, yet it was not enough.
IMO the only chance for a dedicated platform would be if major developers would agree on a Linux distribution and develop for that one. But it takes resources, which most companies will want to have calculated against the *extra* profit this will generate, as they obviously see no point in shifting customers from one platform to the other as this will only cost money, not generate it.
Old 26th February 2017
  #519
qwe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zephonic View Post
Maybe people have the wrong idea about what an OS is?
Trouble is the word 'OS' has come to mean the GUI environment that the user sees--basically a 'top-down' view. Whereas strictly speaking none of that stuff is part of the core OS--'bottom up' view from scheduling, IPC, memory management, etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by zephonic View Post
You don't need something like MacOS/Windows/iOS/Android. You could boot up the device and the only thing the user gets to see is the DAW (or whatever application it is). That way they'd never need to see the OS, so no need for a GUI or whatever. Just a basic kernel that boots, handles IO and launches the application.
It would still need a 'GUI'. :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by zephonic View Post
Korg uses a Linux kernel for their Kronos keyboard. This stuff isn't exactly easy, but it has been done, and it is tried and tested. you wouldn't need to build this from the ground up. Most of it is already available in some form.
IMO the Korg OASYS/Kronos is the right idea--but it's too little too late.

What you're talking about could be done with Windows--it doesn't have to show the Start menu or Taskbar or anything else. :-)
Old 26th February 2017
  #520
qwe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pulsar modular View Post
If I can't use it to get on Gearslutz I'll pass.
LOL. Is Gearslutz a feature or a bug for music production? ;-)
Old 26th February 2017
  #521
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pulsar modular's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by qwe View Post
LOL. Is Gearslutz a feature or a bug for music production? ;-)
Good question. All I know is you can easily end up with a huge collection of stellar gear, but with most of the time spent on perusing the site for even more...
Old 28th February 2017
  #522
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Last edited by latweek; 1st March 2017 at 04:05 AM..
Old 1st March 2017
  #523
FWIT:

Cook pledges support to pro users, talks Trump at Apple's annual shareholder meeting in Cupertino

Tim Cook calls AirPods a ‘cultural phenomenon’ at shareholders meeting, says Apple will ‘do more in the pro area’
https://9to5mac.com/2017/02/28/apple...lders-meeting/
Old 1st March 2017
  #524
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Crazy4Jazz's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexff View Post
FWIT:

Cook pledges support to pro users, talks Trump at Apple's annual shareholder meeting in Cupertino

Tim Cook calls AirPods a ‘cultural phenomenon’ at shareholders meeting, says Apple will ‘do more in the pro area’
https://9to5mac.com/2017/02/28/apple...lders-meeting/
That's all well and good but what does it mean? Having ignored the needs of the pro audio market for so long it is hard to speculate. Support should mean finding out what the pro users want and need and providing it and yet nearly every recent release has been nearly the polar opposite.

Pro users liked and needed the quad core mini - gone.
Pro users liked and needed the upgradability of the cheese grater - gone.
Pro users liked and need iMacs and Laptops with upgradability - gone.

Somehow I don't hold out much hope that these things will come back.

Also, although the price never comes down, the capabilities do. That doesn't inspire confidence in "support" for the "pro" users.

We shall see - the only thing that comes from Apple that is "pro" and cheap is talk.
Old 1st March 2017
  #525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Porto View Post
Already made the switch from Apogee to UAD interfaces. I'll miss Logic, but c'est la vie.
So, you switched to PC. How was the switch over?
Old 1st March 2017
  #526
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I would be very surprised if the MacOS did NOT report anonymized data back to the mothership about how their hardware is used - how many PCIe cards installed in silver Mac Pros, how many Thunderbolt / USB / Firewire devices connected, how many / how often internal drives and memory are upgraded, etc. After all, they can certainly determine the rate of adoption of OS upgrades on phones and computers, and issue statements frequently on these metrics, so it follows that more detailed information is available to them and is used in their product planning, right?

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the removal of PCIe slots from the latest Mac Pros was a decision based, at least in part, on them finding out that only a tiny fraction of users actually made use of the PCIe slots. That, combined with their desire for a simpler and more versatile interconnect scheme (Thunderbolt), might very well be the reason why PCIe went away.
Old 1st March 2017
  #527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qwe View Post
I'm not surprised by your story. That hits the nail on the head really. They didn't get that digital piracy was an unstoppable force. Unfortunately the industry was able to get away with being woefully inefficient and overcharging for a long time.

IMHO recorded music needs to be a service providing a consistent supply of new, varied and high quality CONTENT, not the traditional recording industry model of: 'Here is/are this/these idol(s). Please wait 3 years for their next album, as this is an extremely protracted process pending the artists finding their "muse" whilst they eat up costly studio time at the most well equipped locations on the planet. Sorry about the 8 rubbish tracks on the album, that's just the way it is. Aren't the 2 other tracks awesome? And don't forget to attend the concerts, and buy the poster, T-shirt and Greatest Hits album to boot. Oh, and reissues of all the previous content (on different media or "remastered" etc.)'

I may be being facetious here, but I'm not at all happy with the current state of affairs.
The problem I have with assessments like these is that they tend to make "music" and "rock records" synonymous. Just like Apple is run by the terminally "uncool" so too are record companies.

Does it matter? I don't know, but I do know that since the "suits" and "rock stars" took over the music business, the music business has all but died. I don't know anyone that actually buys music. Not a single person anymore. At one time, I didn't know anyone that did not buy music.

Of course, the digital revolution has much to do with all that, particularly Youtube. Arguably, the kids that used to buy most records nowadays buy electronic music kits like drum machines and sequencers and make "beats". Sort of like interactive radio of sorts. Thus the proliferation of cheap synthesizers and all manner of cheap "analog" gear. But I will let others be the judge of all that.

Although the music business has little to do with music anymore, there are some exceptions. But there are always exceptions.
Old 1st March 2017
  #528
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"You will see us do more" with Macs and professional software, he told shareholders.

I predict we'll see an extremely thin iMac "Pro" and an all new Photo "Pro" app from Timmy's amazing pipeline of great products.
Old 1st March 2017
  #529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy4Jazz View Post
So, you switched to PC. How was the switch over?
No...still on Mac and Logic, currently running my studio on a 2014 MBP quad i7. But if the MBP breaks, not sure what I will replace it with, and with the UAD interfaces, I am not bound to Apple hardware. Still hoping for an updated pro, or even a quad Mini.
Old 1st March 2017
  #530
qwe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pulsar modular View Post
I predict we'll see an extremely thin iMac "Pro" and an all new Photo "Pro" app from Timmy's amazing pipeline of great products.
Old 1st March 2017
  #531
qwe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy4Jazz View Post
The problem I have with assessments like these is that they tend to make "music" and "rock records" synonymous. Just like Apple is run by the terminally "uncool" so too are record companies.
Well, sort of--I wouldn't define 'pop' as the same as 'rock' etc.

Are you saying that there is an insufficient market to make jazz records viable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy4Jazz View Post
I don't know anyone that actually buys music. Not a single person anymore. At one time, I didn't know anyone that did not buy music.
How about subscriptions to Spotify or other streaming services?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy4Jazz View Post
Of course, the digital revolution has much to do with all that, particularly Youtube. Arguably, the kids that used to buy most records nowadays buy electronic music kits like drum machines and sequencers and make "beats". Sort of like interactive radio of sorts. Thus the proliferation of cheap synthesizers and all manner of cheap "analog" gear. But I will let others be the judge of all that.
There's a great deal of difference between a kid lacking in skills putting together 'bits' in e.g. Garageband and what can be done using sequencers and synths? Quite a few interesting movie soundtracks, for instance.
Old 6th March 2017
  #532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qwe View Post
Well, sort of--I wouldn't define 'pop' as the same as 'rock' etc.

Are you saying that there is an insufficient market to make jazz records viable?



How about subscriptions to Spotify or other streaming services?




There's a great deal of difference between a kid lacking in skills putting together 'bits' in e.g. Garageband and what can be done using sequencers and synths? Quite a few interesting movie soundtracks, for instance.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with sequencing synths. I'm merely suggesting that music with a capital M is much broader than that. Of course, it is true that there is an insufficient market for Jazz but that doesn't bother me. A lot of people can't hear what is going on in Jazz and so they don't like it. It's like reading Ulysses for them.

And I would have to admit that sequencers and synths aren't, in and of themselves, any more limited than other types of instruments. The limitation is in the user not the gear.

But what irks me is statements that music is not what it used to be or that there are no great musicians anymore. Even though I don't agree with respect to pop music that there are no greats anymore and I believe every generation has them, I am pretty sure that if the people making these claims did a little digging they would find there are many outstanding musicians working today but to know that you have to reach a bit beyond top 40 content.
Old 7th March 2017
  #533
RTR
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I sold my new MBPr about 4 months after I bought it. I just can not work on something that small. My 2014 imac 5k is still kicking butt. I have a 2012 mac mini for backup!
Old 8th March 2017
  #534
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Originally Posted by RTR View Post
I sold my new MBPr about 4 months after I bought it. I just can not work on something that small. My 2014 imac 5k is still kicking butt. I have a 2012 mac mini for backup!
My late 2013 iMac (bought in 2014 just before your version came out) is a great machine. I just bought a 2012 MBP - 15" 2.6 Ghz quad core - with slightly better benchmark scores than my iMac, and I'm not sure how far to go with it. So far I still prefer the desktop format, but I am sorely tempted to max this thing out with a 1 TB SSD and 16 GB of RAM. I bought it because I found one that was inexpensive and the model is the last configurable Apple laptop.

I was surprised to find that iMacs are actually pretty impressive in the price/value ratio. I read an article comparing them to a Windows desktop making that assertion, so I looked up a Dell XPS with the same 4.0 Ghz processor as the current iMac, and it cost $1800. Add a keyboard and mouse combo for $100, a $500 monitor at a level of the 27" retina screen, etc., and the Dell and iMac were within a couple hundred dollars of each other. Same for the Dell all-in-one. You see it also on the HP Mac to Z website. The HP computers have a larger price advantage for workstations and laptops, but it's within a couple hundred dollars between the HP Z1 G2 and the iMac.
Old 8th March 2017
  #535
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I was with a friend yesterday who need a new laptop. We went to the local Currys/PC world for a quick look at things.

15 inch MacBook pro; i7 quad I think it was 3.5ghz/16 gig ram/512 SSD. price £2700

latest Dell inspiron : latest Kaby Lake i7 4 ghz/16 gigs ram/ 256 SSD/ had a lovely screen and track pad , felt like a nice machine overall . price £945


that's a big difference.

MC
Old 8th March 2017
  #536
Quote:
Originally Posted by norbury brook View Post
I was with a friend yesterday who need a new laptop. We went to the local Currys/PC world for a quick look at things.

15 inch MacBook pro; i7 quad I think it was 3.5ghz/16 gig ram/512 SSD. price £2700

latest Dell inspiron : latest Kaby Lake i7 4 ghz/16 gigs ram/ 256 SSD/ had a lovely screen and track pad , felt like a nice machine overall . price £945


that's a big difference.

MC
That Curry's had the "latest" anything is also a surprise! :D

But srsly, I might be into that... I think I might try running a PC as a portable for a while and see how it goes. My Mac mini quad 2.6 is still ace for production work though, use it as my desktop machine and feel zero need to upgrade that yet. It doesn't run X-Plane very well though.
Old 8th March 2017
  #537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitecat View Post
That Curry's had the "latest" anything is also a surprise! :D

But srsly, I might be into that... I think I might try running a PC as a portable for a while and see how it goes. My Mac mini quad 2.6 is still ace for production work though, use it as my desktop machine and feel zero need to upgrade that yet. It doesn't run X-Plane very well though.
I've used a couple of HP laptops now over the last 10 years no issues at all. I've used them for mobile recording 24 tracks and as a live keyboard rig running VI's at low latency. I used my old HP envy on the whole of SKY TV 'don't forget the lyrics shows, which was live TV and a lot of material to access quickly.


One thing I'd say to anyone who buys a new windows laptop is to;

As soon as yo get it home, download the latest windows version on to a USB drive.

Format your hard disk and install a new Vanilla version of windows.

you'll not be losing anything as it's a new machine and you'll be starting off with a vanilla OS with no pre installed nonsense.



MC
Old 8th March 2017
  #538
RTR
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Same way I felt. I eventually sold the MBP, It was really a WANT and not a NEED. My imac is still doing 100+ tracks with no problem. The slut in me wants a new mac, but I know I do not need one, and all i did was loose money on the MBP, I know now that I could never do real work on a laptop. I know other people can and do, but I love a good desktop!




Quote:
Originally Posted by claurence View Post
My late 2013 iMac (bought in 2014 just before your version came out) is a great machine. I just bought a 2012 MBP - 15" 2.6 Ghz quad core - with slightly better benchmark scores than my iMac, and I'm not sure how far to go with it. So far I still prefer the desktop format, but I am sorely tempted to max this thing out with a 1 TB SSD and 16 GB of RAM. I bought it because I found one that was inexpensive and the model is the last configurable Apple laptop.

I was surprised to find that iMacs are actually pretty impressive in the price/value ratio. I read an article comparing them to a Windows desktop making that assertion, so I looked up a Dell XPS with the same 4.0 Ghz processor as the current iMac, and it cost $1800. Add a keyboard and mouse combo for $100, a $500 monitor at a level of the 27" retina screen, etc., and the Dell and iMac were within a couple hundred dollars of each other. Same for the Dell all-in-one. You see it also on the HP Mac to Z website. The HP computers have a larger price advantage for workstations and laptops, but it's within a couple hundred dollars between the HP Z1 G2 and the iMac.
Old 8th March 2017
  #539
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Dysanfel's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pulsar modular View Post
Timmy's amazing pipeline of great products.
I wonder what Jobs would have thought of this?
Old 8th March 2017
  #540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysanfel View Post
I wonder what Jobs would have thought of this?
That's just one big pile of BS
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