The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
UA Apollo LATENCY despite Tracking with UAD plugins through console. Dynamics Plugins
Old 23rd October 2016
  #1
Lives for gear
 
Matthew Murray's Avatar
 

Question UA Apollo LATENCY despite Tracking with UAD plugins through console.

Having a weird latency issue when tracking with logic and a UA Apollo, on a super powerful trashcan mac.

As an example, let's say I'm tracking vocals or bass into UA's console and using UAD plugins so that I can get no-latency effects while I track.

Tracking into a logic project with several virtual instruments and effects, but my understanding was that provided the track I'm recording is being monitored through the console and not logic's software monitoring, I'm good.

It sounds great while I track, of course, since I'm getting latency free monitoring of a voice or bass.

BUT ... when I go to play the recorded track back, it's late when compared to the mix I was tracking to.

I feel like a newbie here, I must be missing something simple?

Thx,

Matt
Old 23rd October 2016
  #2
Lives for gear
 
dougb415's Avatar
What do you have the latency set to in Logic? Do you have Low Latency Mode turned on?
Old 23rd October 2016
  #3
Lives for gear
 
Matthew Murray's Avatar
 

I'd prefer not to use low latency mode as the point of the UA was to be able to track without having to dumb down the mixes i send to people's cans....

My audio preferences look like this:

Buffer Size: 64
Resulting Latency: 10.2 ms Roundtrip (2.1 ms Output)
Recording Delay: 0 Samples
Processing Threads: AUtomatic
Process Buffer Range: Medium
Multithreading: Playback & Live Trakcs
ReWire Behavior: Off

Thanks for any insights!!
Matt
Old 23rd October 2016
  #4
Lives for gear
 
MusiKLover's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Murray View Post
I'd prefer not to use low latency mode as the point of the UA was to be able to track without having to dumb down the mixes i send to people's cans....

My audio preferences look like this:

Buffer Size: 64
Resulting Latency: 10.2 ms Roundtrip (2.1 ms Output)
Recording Delay: 0 Samples
Processing Threads: AUtomatic
Process Buffer Range: Medium
Multithreading: Playback & Live Trakcs
ReWire Behavior: Off

Thanks for any insights!!
Mattress
You can hit "Rec" at the top of Console and/or "Mon." If you are recording while connected to LPX, for example, all Monitoring occurs within Console, not Logic if set up correctly. This also would be the case when you you print directly into the DAW.

Thus track in Console, make the connection, ensure you are always monitoring in Console, not LPX. I believe that's part of the 'zero latency' Value Prop.

Start here:
http://www.uaudio.com/blog/using-apollo-console-app/

Last edited by MusiKLover; 24th October 2016 at 02:05 PM.. Reason: Added "Rec" clarification, tweaked
Old 23rd October 2016
  #5
Lives for gear
 

Software monitoring is off and you have your fader levels up in Console? If not, you're not monitoring through Console but through Logic...

KA
Old 24th October 2016
  #6
Lives for gear
 
dougb415's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Murray View Post
I'd prefer not to use low latency mode as the point of the UA was to be able to track without having to dumb down the mixes i send to people's cans....

My audio preferences look like this:

Buffer Size: 64
Resulting Latency: 10.2 ms Roundtrip (2.1 ms Output)
Recording Delay: 0 Samples
Processing Threads: AUtomatic
Process Buffer Range: Medium
Multithreading: Playback & Live Trakcs
ReWire Behavior: Off

Thanks for any insights!!
Matt
I set my buffer size to 32 and turn on LLM. I was having the same problem as you, but when I made these changes it fixed it for me.
Old 24th October 2016
  #7
Lives for gear
 
Matthew Murray's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dougb415 View Post
I set my buffer size to 32 and turn on LLM. I was having the same problem as you, but when I made these changes it fixed it for me.

I'll try 32 but really, shouldn't we be able to avoid LLM with this solution?
Old 24th October 2016
  #8
Lives for gear
 
Matthew Murray's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KorgAddict View Post
Software monitoring is off and you have your fader levels up in Console? If not, you're not monitoring through Console but through Logic...

KA
Software monitoring is definitely off - I'm monitoring through Console.

TO BE CLEAR - it sounds great when tracking. Totally in time. It's when we play back that the recorded audio is being played late compared to the track.
Old 24th October 2016
  #9
Lives for gear
 

Remove plugins from the mix buss while tracking. I've never had this issue in Logic but I have in Cubase.
Old 24th October 2016
  #10
Lives for gear
 
Matthew Murray's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by classictunz View Post
Remove plugins from the mix buss while tracking. I've never had this issue in Logic but I have in Cubase.
Is this a bug or is this just a limitation of this system of gear?

I need reliable latency free tracking no matter what stage my projects are in (ie. there might be plugins on various tracks, etc, because it could be later in the song's development.

If Apollo and it's supposed 'latency-free' monitoring can't achieve this for me I might be looking at a massive shift to a Protools DSP system so I'm hoping that ain't the case...
Old 24th October 2016
  #11
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Murray View Post
Is this a bug or is this just a limitation of this system of gear?

I need reliable latency free tracking no matter what stage my projects are in (ie. there might be plugins on various tracks, etc, because it could be later in the song's development.

If Apollo and it's supposed 'latency-free' monitoring can't achieve this for me I might be looking at a massive shift to a Protools DSP system so I'm hoping that ain't the case...
Ok to fully explain when I have issues in Cubase not Logic. It's only when I have certain DSP plugins on the mix bus while trying to write virtual instrument data(midi).

I never experienced a track being off timing while playing back a newly recorded audio track.

My question is does this happen everytime? Can you reproduce this on any track and what version of Logic are you running?
Old 24th October 2016
  #12
Lives for gear
 
Matthew Murray's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by classictunz View Post
Ok to fully explain when I have issues in Cubase not Logic. It's only when I have certain DSP plugins on the mix bus while trying to write virtual instrument data(midi).

I never experienced a track being off timing while playing back a newly recorded audio track.

My question is does this happen everytime? Can you reproduce this on any track and what version of Logic are you running?

It doesn't happen everytime, no, it seems to be when it's on a project that has a couple virtual instruments, or plugins on various tracks (native or UAD, doesn't seem to really matter though i haven't really isolated for sure)
Old 24th October 2016
  #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by classictunz View Post
Remove plugins from the mix buss while tracking.
I use PT but both of the Apollo's I've owned (SF and BF 8 channel) did this until plugs were removed from the master fader.
Old 24th October 2016
  #14
Lives for gear
 
dougb415's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Murray View Post
I'll try 32 but really, shouldn't we be able to avoid LLM with this solution?
LLM will temporarily turn off any plug in that could be causing latency, from what I understand, Also, make sure you're not using any UAD plug ins inside Logic while tracking.
Old 24th October 2016
  #15
Lives for gear
 
Matthew Murray's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dougb415 View Post
LLM will temporarily turn off any plug in that could be causing latency, from what I understand, Also, make sure you're not using any UAD plug ins inside Logic while tracking.
Yes LLM will do that but the value proposition of Apollo is that it doesn't matter what's up in Logic - I'm getting the sense that that ain't the case, which is a bummer.
Old 24th October 2016
  #16
Lives for gear
 
dougb415's Avatar
The Apollo is working correctly, you can load Console as you wish and you won't get any latency. The issue is with Logic, which is why you have to make adjustments from within Logic.
Old 24th October 2016
  #17
Old 24th October 2016
  #18
Lives for gear
 

I don't use LDC at all!

I've learn to not put UAD plugins on the master buss until I'm done recording LDC was a nightmare in Logic and Cubase.
Old 24th October 2016
  #19
Lives for gear
 
duckoff's Avatar
 

Remove plugins from the mix buss while tracking. I've never had this issue in Logic but I have in Cubase.

This is what you have to do - it is a limitation of the setup, i do this, or I calculate my 2bus latency & compensate the takes accordingly.

There is also a record offset somewhere in logic (or there used to be at least) you could probably use that.

D
Old 24th October 2016
  #20
Lives for gear
 
dougb415's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by classictunz View Post
I don't use LDC at all!
Do you mean PLC (Plug-in Latency Compensation)? I have mine set to ALL. For tracking I use LLM, for mixing I run the buffer up to 1024 and turn LLM off.

And also during tracking - no UAD plug-ins from within Logic, like on the Master Bus, etc.
Old 24th October 2016
  #21
Lives for gear
 

Plugin delay compensation.
Old 24th October 2016
  #22
Manufacturer
 
Universal Audio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Murray View Post
It doesn't happen everytime, no, it seems to be when it's on a project that has a couple virtual instruments, or plugins on various tracks (native or UAD, doesn't seem to really matter though i haven't really isolated for sure)
Hi Matthew,

I've seen this reported from time to time but I've never been able to reproduce it.

It sounds like you're setup is good - Software Monitoring is off, playback buffer size shouldn't matter. The playback from Logic is merged with live audio in the Apollo so it should never be out of sync.

A couple of questions for you:

What happens when you disable the VIs or plug-ins in Logic? Could it be a corrupt session? Have you tried to create a new session and import tracks into it? Does the sync changes when you change buffer size - like if you go to 1024 is that much farther out?

If none of your troubleshooting here pans out, you might try giving UA Customer Service a call and walk through your setup with you and see if they can spot anything awry.

-GK
Gannon Kashiwa
Old 25th October 2016
  #23
Lives for gear
 
MusiKLover's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Murray View Post
I'd prefer not to use low latency mode as the point of the UA was to be able to track without having to dumb down the mixes i send to people's cans....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Murray View Post
Is this a bug or is this just a limitation of this system of gear?

I need reliable latency free tracking no matter what stage my projects are in (ie. there might be plugins on various tracks, etc, because it could be later in the song's development.

If Apollo and it's supposed 'latency-free' monitoring can't achieve this for me I might be looking at a massive shift to a Protools DSP system so I'm hoping that ain't the case...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Murray View Post
Yes LLM will do that but the value proposition of Apollo is that it doesn't matter what's up in Logic - I'm getting the sense that that ain't the case, which is a bummer.
As already mentioned it might in fact be LPX and not Apollo, and I hope this addresses the issue you're having and is helpful:

Here are quotations Valis made two years ago having to do with some of the older issues LPX had with respect to on-screen latency that had the potential to affect the tracks themselves in unique circumstances. On screen has been largely ameliorated but the principles still apply.

I realize you are tracking, but since you're not going the Low Latency Route, I thought I'd point this out:

The bottom line: It's best not to have many, if any, plugins on the Output Channel, and particularly any that introduce latency. Rather, create a Virtual 2-Bus, or if extensive a cascade (series) of buses:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/10277307-post4.html
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/10688896-post6.html


"You should be aware that several of these have a high internal Latency and when you use latent plugins on output objects you get EXACTLY this result. You should at the very least be using everything on a bus which is then set to the output (send all your tracks to a bus, insert these there, set the output of the bus to the main/master output pair).

I don't know the internal latencies of Compressor & Limiter (which look like the stock Logic ones to me) but any lookahead value will certainly increase it.

So at minimum you have 7095 samples of UNCOMPENSATED latency in this project, and worst case scenario you have 14775 (if using SuprEsser instead of LL, which is what most people use when not using HD versions). "

"Again, the way to "live with this" is to use busses (or more correctly aux objects assigned to a bus that everything is sent to)."Individually pre-recorded audio tracks CAN be time aligned to the *last* plugin (the latency seen by the audio object after the last insert), because the data the object is READING off of the disk can simply be read in advance the correct amount of samples to compensate for the latency. This is what PDC does (plugin delay compensation), it calculates the TOTAL latency introduced on a per object (not per-insert) basis and compensates for it. In the case of 'live' audio you have to live with the fact that latency inducing plugins are an issue, there's no way to time-align 'realtime' audio entering an audio track (via i/o utility or the recording input) and so Logic has a feature that you can enable (Low Latency mode) on your transport that will bypass plugins that have more than a preset amount of internal latency. This is mostly to aid in tracking, so that monitor mixes sent to artists (or yourself) aren't completely audibly out of whack with what you're playing. This isn't DIRECTLY for the issue in the first post, the UI being out of time, but it ALSO helps here.

Also we bring to light another issue, the fact that ONLY audio tracks that are reading pre-recorded data can 'preroll' the data being read to time-align it. Everything else must be buffered internally. For an output bus, this means THE ENTIRE MIX, regardless of whether that individual output matters for what the rest of the mix is doing or not (consider the case of submixes). All outputs must be 100% delayed to the total sum delay of the entire project. For an AUX object, this isn't the case, you only have to delay all audio in *that* signal chain up to the point that it stays aligned with that aux. Ie, your whole project might have a high latency as the sum total of ALL tracks & aux objects etc, but each aux is still only delayed enough to compensate for the latencies that come before it. Again this won't affect the 'final' project latency in the way you're thinking, but with careful cascading of auxes you can solve certain issues in regards to automation not being properly time-aligned for landing 'on the 1' so to speak (make the plugin you're automating last in that aux's chain, send the output of that aux onto another aux to continue to process, and the plugin is now 100% time aligned for automation data at least)."
Old 25th October 2016
  #24
Lives for gear
 

@MusiKLover you are reminiscent of a good friend I use to flame with on here...

It's starting to make sense now
Old 25th October 2016
  #25
@MusiKLover Thank you for the great explanation. As an anecdotal evidence of your point, I recently created a project in Logic where every instrument type runs to its own bussed-auxiliary channel (one for kicks, one for snares, one for cymbals, one for hw synths, one for sw synths, etc), then these auxiliary channels are grouped on bussed-auxiliary channels (one for drums, one for synths, one for bass, etc). And then these groups are sent to a final bussed-aux channel which serves as the 2 buss. However, these instrument and group auxiliary channels don't get any time or space based plugins - for that I run a whole other set of parallel bussed-auxiliary channels, which feed into there own series of group and instrument aux channels eventually feeding into a single "WET 2-buss".

So, I have in total about 24 aux channels, and actually less instrument tracks, but I am bit of minimalist. However, I have multiple instances of Altiverb and Arousor, a few Logic stock compressors, and a fair amount of other plugins. However, no plugins are on the master out and no plugins are on the input channels in Logic. I have no problem recording multiple channels 'head-ache free' using my UAD Apollo Twin Duo. One thing that I will point out though, is that I also use an ERM Multiclock to sync my devices to Logic's clock, and this machine allows me to shift the sequencer start point ahead or behind the midi clock. So, that might be why I haven't been noticing any latency... but I will say that putting plugins only on auxiliary channels has greatly improved the stability of my projects.
Old 26th October 2016
  #26
Gear Maniac
 
Jay Asher's Avatar
 

MusiKLover, the Virtual 2 buss is a clever idea and I think useful for a lot of things.
Old 26th October 2016
  #27
Lives for gear
 
MusiKLover's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Asher View Post
MusiKLover, the Virtual 2 buss is a clever idea and I think useful for a lot of things.
Thanks, Jay, and please feel free to discuss the concept in one of your ask.video LPX feature articles.
Old 25th February 2018
  #28
Lives for gear
 
IkennaFuNkEn's Avatar
 

I’m having this issue and I don’t have anything on the master bus, monitoring through console. I have the whole session sent to a virtual 2 bus. It goes away when I use low latency mode, but I thought the point of recording through console is you didn’t have to do that. To control the overall session levels any other ideas?
Old 25th February 2018
  #29
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IkennaFuNkEn View Post
I’m having this issue and I don’t have anything on the master bus, monitoring through console. I have the whole session sent to a virtual 2 bus. It goes away when I use low latency mode, but I thought the point of recording through console is you didn’t have to do that. To control the overall session levels any other ideas?
Are you talking Pro Tools or Logic?
Both DAWs has its low latency mode, but each does different thing.
The low latency mode in Logic allow you to set maximum allowable latency for plugins during recording, when some AU plugin inserted in the chain exceed that limit, it gets automatically disabled during recording.

The low latency monitoring mode in PT is for different thing, it essentially disables software monitoring for recorded tracks. So as soon you'll hit the record button, PT automatically mutes audio output from from recorded tracks. Otherwise you'd hear the incoming sound twice.. first path via Console monitoring at low latency, the second path will be with higher latency via PT.. you don't want that.

Michal
Old 25th February 2018
  #30
Lives for gear
 
dougb415's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by IkennaFuNkEn View Post
I’m having this issue and I don’t have anything on the master bus, monitoring through console. I have the whole session sent to a virtual 2 bus. It goes away when I use low latency mode, but I thought the point of recording through console is you didn’t have to do that. To control the overall session levels any other ideas?
Do you have plugs on individual tracks? LLM isn’t just for the master bus.
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump