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Need help buying a new computer for music production...
Old 28th July 2016
  #31
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chrischoir's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaolin View Post
I5 is NOT always enough for music production.
yet people did music production on pentium "1" , PIIs and PIIIs and p4s.

i5 is more than most people need. The problem is most people are using cheap usb or fire-wire sound cards and they are using mechanical drives.

An i5 with an ASIO pci sound card and SSD is going to outperform an i7 with a usb interface and a mechanical drive. I bet an i5 with an ASIO PCIe would outperform an i7 with a cheap usb card and ssd.

However it is cheaper to buy an i7 and a $100 interface than it is to buy an i5 and a real sound card.
Old 28th July 2016
  #32
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chrischoir's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
A 6700 will offer lower latency at larger projects
A CPU is not going to give you lower latency especially if you are running an OS like windows or OSX. A highend PCIe soundcard with hardware monitoring is the only thing that can give you lower latency. In some cases depending on the drivers and sound card, and 8 core CPU can actually have higher latency than 4 cores. Clock speed is 9 times out of 10 meaningless for audio speeds. And the fact that device drivers rarely if every can run in parallel, # of cores are meaningless as well.
Old 28th July 2016
  #33
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chrischoir's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by greggybud View Post


Apologies for being a snob in advance, but for anyone buying a PC for "music production" especially anyone who says "the best" or "the best bang for the buck."

1. Define exactly your audio objectives. How many audio tracks in your projects? Going to attempt to use only factory DAW VST's or 3rd party too? Going to use orchestra sample-heavy 3rd parties such as EWQL, large symphonies, or VSL? Going to use UAD that takes up slots? Going to use Acoustica? Did I miss anything here?

2. Define the connection between ITB and OTB. Do you use lots of external hardware? USB or Firewire or both? Kind of AD/DA converter?

3. Determine your daily, monthly, yearly usage. 8 hours a day 5 days a week? Making a living from this or a hobbyist? If you experience a PC issue would you like immediate support like...let the builder view in real time the issue? Or maybe you don't mind spending days or weeks trouble shooting via email? That is incredibly frustrating when you state a specific problem, everything is updated and the manufacturer replies with something generic like "please update your....etc"

4. Are you focused on tracking, mixing, or mastering? Sure, 99% will say all 3 but really decide where most of your time is spent because it does make a difference with how you configure your PC. Ask any ME using a PC with outboard equipment and a mastering application such as Wavelab, Sadie, etc

5. MOST IMPORTANTLY: Decide if you want to finish completed tracks perhaps with deadlines, or on the extreme opposite end...just experiment and not worry about completing anything.

Learning any tool takes time. In 1999 it took me months to learn and build in Reaktor at the cost of fewer competed projects. A few years later the same thing happened with me with NI's Kore. How much time are you willing to sacrifice, build and configure a PC? How much time are you willing to configure all your software, optimize it, and then really learn your tools?

Over the years I have had PC's custom built by people who specialize in DAW's for audio production. I also had a PC built by my nephew, but I insisted...and he agreed to really REASEARCH what would be optimal for my audio objectives. IMO going to Newegg and blindly choosing components is a risk. You have to educate yourself about what works best with other stuff. Also, to add confusion a brand that is superior today may be the worst tomorrow. Contrary to my Audio PC builders advice I insisted on all Seagate when he said Western Digital. My Seagates didn't last very long.

I have been using Cubase since 1997. Contrary to many threads I have read over the years, I have never ever at any time, experienced any performance issue. With Cubase, I have been using most everything from Waves, NI, Toontrack, Arturia and some UAD. The same is true with Wavelab9. Maybe I got lucky?

I also stay disconnected from the internet except for occasional updates. I use a laptop for the internet including all files from customers to immunize anything potentially bad. Sure, 95% of users (according to Arturia) are on line. I simply feel more safe being off line. It is more difficult for updates/upgrades, but even today I still feel it is worth it.

Good luck!
+1
great post
Old 28th July 2016
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
yet people did music production on pentium "1" , PIIs and PIIIs and p4s.

i5 is more than most people need. The problem is most people are using cheap usb or fire-wire sound cards and they are using mechanical drives.

An i5 with an ASIO pci sound card and SSD is going to outperform an i7 with a usb interface and a mechanical drive. I bet an i5 with an ASIO PCIe would outperform an i7 with a cheap usb card and ssd.

However it is cheaper to buy an i7 and a $100 interface than it is to buy an i5 and a real sound card.
Interesting assertions.

Back in the day the plugins were less demanding. They also didn't sound so good. We used the PC in conjunction with a lot of outboard. I think anyone would struggle to get a commercial standard mix fully ITB on a Pentium 1-4.

Care to back up the claims of i5 plus pci beating i7 plus usb? I think it's pretty daring of you to dismiss all usb devices, like the GS darling RME. Is that garbage? And is latency the only factor you're considering? Is there no other reason to have an i7?

We've discussed SSD already and among its numerous benefits, audio performance wasn't one of the main ones.

Last edited by Shaolin; 28th July 2016 at 06:16 AM..
Old 28th July 2016
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
A CPU is not going to give you lower latency especially if you are running an OS like windows or OSX. A highend PCIe soundcard with hardware monitoring is the only thing that can give you lower latency. In some cases depending on the drivers and sound card, and 8 core CPU can actually have higher latency than 4 cores. Clock speed is 9 times out of 10 meaningless for audio speeds. And the fact that device drivers rarely if every can run in parallel, # of cores are meaningless as well.
It's true that analogue monitoring is the only way to get 0 latency monitoring, but you don't need a pci card to do that. Almost any $100 usb interface offers it.

You need a powerful cpu to cope with the demands of low latency. If you want 32 or 64 samples buffer you need a big mama of a CPU to handle those interrupts. A well written driver is important, but the driver doesn't do the actual work.

You've made some pretty radical claims again. So examples backing up your claims please. Not convinced.
Old 28th July 2016
  #36
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Hardsinc_'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirka View Post
You are right, considering what the OP does, i7 is "safer".


Bull..., i run instances of Omnisphere on a i5 and 8 giga of ram.
You can track and light mix on a pentium 4 !
And how many Reaktor Blocks Ensembles can you run at x2 oversampling, with Kush/Sly Fi plug ins on that system?
Old 28th July 2016
  #37
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
yet people did music production on pentium "1" , PIIs and PIIIs and p4s.
As stated above by shaolin, correct. I used a 200MHz Pentium I myself, first with Logic, then switched to Cubase VST. However, quality was a different level, and virtual instruments only came when PIII's reached the 1GHz speed. Back then, you could not do what we do now, especially not with the current quality.

Quote:
i5 is more than most people need. The problem is most people are using cheap usb or fire-wire sound cards and they are using mechanical drives.
Mechanical drives are not a bottleneck for most, it just takes longer for applications and Windows to start and you are limited in streaming voices or tracks. A normal 7200RPM drive handles 140+ tracks.

Quote:
An i5 with an ASIO pci sound card and SSD is going to outperform an i7 with a usb interface and a mechanical drive.
Depends on the drivers. An i7 with a PCIe card is going to outperform an i5 with the same PCIe card.

Quote:
I bet an i5 with an ASIO PCIe would outperform an i7 with a cheap usb card and ssd.
Depends on the drivers.
Quote:
However it is cheaper to buy an i7 and a $100 interface than it is to buy an i5 and a real sound card.
I agree with that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
A CPU is not going to give you lower latency especially if you are running an OS like windows or OSX.
I stated *with larger projects*, as an i7 will handle more tracks at lower latency settings. At the same core speed, expect approx. 25%.

Quote:
A highend PCIe soundcard with hardware monitoring is the only thing that can give you lower latency.
Many people require software monitoring, that is the sole reason why low latency is a discussion. Lipsync dialog/FX editing and automation fader rides is another.

Quote:
In some cases depending on the drivers and sound card, and 8 core CPU can actually have higher latency than 4 cores.
Why do you try to claim an i5 is just as fast when the only argument you have is "if the faster CPU uses a crappy soundcard"?
In this current example, a quadcore may beat an octocore if the latter has much lower core speed and at least one of the tracks has a bunch of heavy plug-ins stacked.

Quote:
Clock speed is 9 times out of 10 meaningless for audio speeds.
No it is not, as in the example above. Heavy CPU load on ONE track (or more) requires core speed. The lower the latency, the more core speed you need, as the spiking of the CPU usage, which is not even correctly displayed in the slow taskmanager view, only allows cores to use an average load of 40-50%, while at higher buffer settings, it may go all the way up to 99%.

Quote:
And the fact that device drivers rarely if every can run in parallel, # of cores are meaningless as well.
Do you even know what you are talking about?
Attached a dual 6 core and a dual 10 core. The last 8 threads at the dual 10 core are a bit weird as most DAWs do not support more than 32 threads.
Attached Thumbnails
Need help buying a new computer for music production...-24-quadvoice-divine-diva_128-buffer.jpg   Need help buying a new computer for music production...-protoolshd-core-use-40-threads4.jpg  

Last edited by DAW PLUS; 28th July 2016 at 10:17 AM..
Old 28th July 2016
  #38
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaolin View Post
You were hasty in recommending an i5 and were shown to be wrong. Just accept it and move on. Don't throw out insults and try to recover your credibility. It just makes it worse.
No insult there,
I had no problem admiting i7 would be a wiser option considering
the heavy tasks of the op.
But you also wrote, something totally stupid about how an i5 could only be used
Quote:
Not an i5. That would suit a tracking setup or some light mixing duties.
i just couldn't let it pass !
Old 28th July 2016
  #39
Lives for gear
I didn't say an i5 could only be used for those duties. Of course you can use an i5 for more than I suggested but the OP is buying or possibly building a new system. If it was only to be for tracking or light mixing then there's little point getting anything less than an i5 in 2016. Apologies if that was not clear.

This thread is hanging by a thread. It is important that GS does not live up to its reputation of being the place where the uninformed lead the misguided. I know it's a forum and we operate free speech, but we should also operate with a sense of responsibility. We should not pretend to be experts when we're not.

Last edited by Shaolin; 28th July 2016 at 04:00 PM..
Old 28th July 2016
  #40
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaolin View Post
I didn't say an i5 could only be used for those duties.
Yes you did,
Quote:
Not an i5. That would suit a tracking setup or some light mixing duties.
and you further even admit you did,
Quote:
Of course you can use an i5 for more than I suggested
So who among us is "uninformed, misguiding and unduly pretending to be an expert" ?
Old 28th July 2016
  #41
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Mirka,

Your quotes of me do not prove the point you think you are making. The i5 does suit tracking/light mixing. It could also be used for other things. You have implied, all by yourself, that I suggested that a tracking machine could not do anything else. I never said that. I even tried to clear that up by recognizing the capabilities of the i5, spelling it out even though it should have been obvious that the i5 is no slouch, just that if buying today, you'd buy an i5 for lighter work of any description.

I really hope that is now clear. Unfortunately yt appears that you are more concerned with scoring points than being right. I call troll. Compare your reckless and incorrect advice to a real expert like DAWPlus and you come off worse. Much, much worse.

Finally, I never said I was an expert. Look at my responses compared to DAWPlus'. You'll see that he has expert details but that I'm in the ballpark. You however, are hovering somewhere over Jupiter.

Feel free to reply. I will read it, but won't waste any more time on you or in derailing this thread.
Old 29th July 2016
  #42
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You are right, let us stop wasting time, we could continue like this for weeks, you would still keep on denying your own written words !
Old 29th July 2016
  #43
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jaxman12's Avatar
Just wanted to post an update on the negative review that I posted on the new HP I7 Pavillion I purchased from HP a few weeks ago. The performance issues that I was experiencing was a bad Western Digital Blue hard drive that was failing. They are sending me a new hard drive to correct the problem. Should see a remarkable improvement when it is fixed.
Old 30th July 2016
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaxman12 View Post
Just wanted to post an update on the negative review that I posted on the new HP I7 Pavillion I purchased from HP a few weeks ago. The performance issues that I was experiencing was a bad Western Digital Blue hard drive that was failing. They are sending me a new hard drive to correct the problem. Should see a remarkable improvement when it is fixed.
I'm glad your problem was identified and will be corrected. I'm still considering buying that same desktop... I just can't decide whether to get a SSD or just stick to HDD.
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