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Water Cooling Systems
Old 5th February 2007
  #1
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Water Cooling Systems

What’s up all? I’m currently building a Quadzilla and I want to water cool this thing. I’m currently looking at the Zalman Reserator 1 v2 and the Reserator 2 cause they look well built. I’m completely new to water cooling companies. I understand how the idea works, and could build my own system if I knew what companies and parts are the best. I was going to go phase change with the VapoChill Lightspeed LS, but I’ve talked myself out of that because of noise. Anyone know of some quality water cooling systems or companies to buy parts from? What about the two Zalman’s I mentioned, anyone know anything about these? Thanks in advance.

Sorry for the triple post, in case you saw this in the Windows LE or Windows TDM forums at the DUC!

gym*
Old 5th February 2007
  #2
I would not cool your CPU with water.

1. more expensive
2. if you cool with water, all the sourrounding pieces will get much hotter (because of missing air-movement)
3. north and southbridge (depeding on the board and CPU) may need also watercooling.

If you buy a big ZAHLMANN CPU-Ventilator, you pay +/- 50$... watercooling is 4 times as expensive + working hours...

cheers
Old 5th February 2007
  #3
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what if I also have MASSIVE air cooling within the case and cost is not an issue? I'm only looking to reduce CPU, Video Card, and HD temp and possibly overclock the CPUs in the coming months.
Old 5th February 2007
  #4
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HI,
the zalmans are not designed for dual cpus.
i am using the zalman 1 for my HTPC and it works very well.
i had no choice as i needed quiet and i have no air flow where my HTPC is
and was not about to cut holes in a solid oak entertainment center.

however for a daw i see no point to it.
you can air cool quieter and better for much less.

Scott
ADK

and why are you building an opteron when a single Intel Core 2 Quad kicks its butt big time
Old 5th February 2007
  #5
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there is a reason why apple dropped water cooling. too risky.
Old 5th February 2007
  #6
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Geert van den Berg's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by quincyg View Post
there is a reason why apple dropped water cooling. too risky.
While there were maybe some problems with the liquid cooling systems, I also think Apple dropped the idea because with the new processors running cooler it wasn't necessary anymore.

But nonetheless I wouldn't opt for a watercooling system either... though I have seen some very nice computer enclosures which were pre-made for watercooling, then I think it's not so hard to assemble. But as been said, I don't think those were suitable for the newer processors... but maybe they are? Have to check the spec's first.
Old 5th February 2007
  #7
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steffenb's Avatar
 

im using a passiv watercooling system for my daw for about 3 months now .
im using this one http://www.kailon.de/catalog/product...roducts_id=126
i definitly dont regret it ! the cpu tmperature is always good !
i modded the thing with a second passiv radiator like this http://www.watercooling.de/catalog/p...roducts_id=119
i put the little radiator into my pc.... so theres just the huge tower from kailon standing on my desk, wich looks pretty nice to me

i can say its abolutely silent cause the waterpump is inside the watertank ...
Old 5th February 2007
  #8
Old 7th February 2007
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcschild View Post
and why are you building an opteron when a single Intel Core 2 Quad kicks its butt big time
ok, what should I build? I'm an Intel guy and this will be my first AMD. If you can convince me otherwise, then please do. I'm basically looking at this setup because the board is a server board that upgrades to 8+ years of use, which is the efficiency that I am looking for. PM me, I'd like to discuss this more.

BTW, thanks to all that have responded. I'm not considering Water Cooling, I'm looking for others with experience because I AM GOING with Water Cooling....plus I have massive Air Cooling. I'm not looking for opinions on my rig, I'm going on experience. I work in a VERY, VERY warm environment and have lost many a CPU to heat. My next rig will have ever angle covered for longevity. So, please only post if you have Water Cooling experience. I have found ocforums.com to be a LOT of help, to others interested in water cooling.

No hard feelings, I appreciate everyone posting! I'm just looking for reputable w/c equipment, not opinions! Thanks!


gym*
Old 17th April 2009
  #10
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Talking

ProModz water-cooling rules!
X-bit labs - Print version

ive read all reviews/tests i could find about every fan & air cooler for pc, also thermal paste.
all air coolers fight for 1°, air coolers have an invisible performance wall,
nothing like good water cooling.

water removes heat way faster than air,
and there are water blocks for north bridge, south bridge, Moss chips, VGA, hard-drives, the back of the motherboards, everything!
pumps strong enough, tubes big enough 1/2", etc...

koolance has released a 2u rack mount water cooler! amazing. and a 3u for cooling a complete rack full of equipment. up to 3000w of heat disipation.
theres custom 9x120mm radiators!
in Performance-PCs.com, ... sleeve it and they will come,
PC Mods, Case Mods, PC Cooling, Gaming, and More - Crazy PC
and Xoxide.com - Custom ATX Computer Cases, PC Mods, Computer Case mods, and Modded PC Cases

theres cooling fluids that are non toxic & non electric conductive!,
the technology/research behind the cooling fluids for water cooled PCs is amazing.
just amazing.

theres a PC that is completly cooled by OIL. exept the hard drive, the case is filled with oil.

im done with air cooling.
Old 17th April 2009
  #11
Lives for gear
okay you're dead set on water cooling...
why?

ambient temperatures?
you reach the same thermal transfer limit with water cooling as you do with air cooling in a hot enviornment, just it's delayed over time. if you run your system for over an hour you'll see the same issue transferring heat into a hot room with a radiator as with fins on a heatsink.

check out this article on hardocp on the new thermaltake expressar it compares the expressar at 100% compression (it's a phase change vapor refrigerant cooling system) and 75% and 50% against water cooling and some high end air coolers.

[H] Enthusiast - Xpressar Refrigeration System & Xaser Chassis

the air based cooling is only slightly warmer than water and vapor phase if you get a good air cooler.

on the page following the one linked you get to see noise levels and the air coolers come out on top for silence or on the bottom if you get the best cooling one.

the point is air cooling equals water cooling and is quiter and cheaper and means far less headaches.

you wanted a previous water cooling opinion... well here's mine.
avoid water cooling, it's far less headache to immerse the whole machine in mineral oil sans the drives than to set up and test for leaks on water cooling.

one fish tank and some silicone sealant caulk and your components and some extra long cabling for sata and pata and possibly some sata, 24 pin and 4 pin molex power extenders. one big fan to stir the coolant in the fish tank also. it works out to the same price if not cheaper than water cooling and does the same effective job. just get a large radiator surface as scrap from craigslist as well as a fishtank and your only cost is a tube of caulk (about $2.50) and some power and data extender cabling ($30.00) and the mineral oil. you can put a radiator cutout from an auto in the fish tank vertically and run 2 large slow fans, one smaller one in the oil bath to circulate the oil, one larger slower one against the top non-oil submerged portion of the radiator to act as a coolant for the oil.

you can do a ghetto oil bath tank coolant solution for around $100 and it will cool everything on the motherboard cpu, gpu, chipset, every capacitor, pwm power regulator, top surface of mobo, bottom of mobo, every add in card, etc...

all you have to do is be careful about sealing up components that could leak due to mineral oil breaking down the insulator, and that's where the silicon caulk comes in again.

but seriously you look to be from nashville and unless you're doing sound work in an autobody shop with heat lamps on all the time your machine will be fine in ambient sweltering summer day temps with air cooling. water is just not needed nor advisable anymore with current heatpipe 120mm cpu coolers and gpu coolers.
Old 17th April 2009
  #12
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dft3670's Avatar
 

you wanted a previous water cooling opinion... well here's mine.
avoid water cooling, it's far less headache to immerse the whole machine in mineral oil sans the drives than to set up and test for leaks on water cooling


Can you imaginge sticking the tank on a shelf, bubble air through the oil and backlight the whole thing with colored lights. It would look like something out of a horror movie lab. Much cooler looking than a lava lamp in the studio. The best part would be telling clients it's your computer and watch their mouths hit the floor.
Old 17th April 2009
  #13
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LeMauce's Avatar
Best thing you could buy otm is from zalman the TNN 500AF case.
But you can't put every cpu in it. Check out there website:
::: Zalman, leading the world of Quiet Computing Solutions :::
Complete (almost) fanless design
Old 17th April 2009
  #14
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::::: SHAKES HEAD::::::

only the reserator is quiet enough to consider and more the question is WHY?
Old 17th April 2009
  #15
Gear Nut
 

i just built an i7 920 DAW and i'm water cooling with a reserator 1 radiator and pump (forget which revision). i'm not a pro with paying clients, just a guy who likes to work on his own for fun, and for me the reasons to water-cool were a combination of factors:

FUN - since i'm not under time pressure (except from my wife to get the room reasonably tidy having made a mess of it with component boxes, cables, etc.) i don't have to worry about the extra time it takes and it adds to the DIY experience. i get to enjoy putting my stamp on my system in this way.

QUIET - the last DAW i built was a P4 660 on the ASUS P5AD2E. at that time (as i recall) water cooling was a much better option than air for keeping temps under control and quiet operation. that last machine i originally used water, and gave it up in favor of air when i needed to sell off some crap and it is LOUD.
so i budgeted for water this time around too. i'm sure i could get quiet air cooling but i just like this. and i do think it's more effective. i have water blocks on the cpu and northbridge only, a silent gpu card with a giant heatsink (will see if this throws off my ambient temps under long-term use - so far i haven't had problems but haven't really had it under load for a long time yet) and i also have a couple fans going, one in the front of my rack-mount case blowing past the hard drives, and a pair of pretty quiet exhaust fans in the rear. Used dampening foam to quiet a lot of the fan noise and vibration, and i can't hear any of them running unless i get really close to the case or crack the top.

i plan to overclock my 920 by a fair margin (not to the max but maybe to 3.6) and i feel like water will out-perform air in that regard and without adding noise as temps/clock speed get higher. even if it doesn't out-perform air cooling per se, it will certainly keep pace and the noise levels will be the same no matter what.

so there my two (maybe this is more like 3 or 4) cents.
Old 17th April 2009
  #17
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Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by W-W-Int View Post

the air based cooling is only slightly warmer than water and vapor phase if you get a good air cooler.

the point is air cooling equals water cooling and is quiter and cheaper and means far less headaches.

you wanted a previous water cooling opinion... well here's mine.
avoid water cooling, it's far less headache

water is just not needed.
Please follow your advice, and remove the Water/H2O from your Car/Automovile.
Old 18th April 2009
  #18
Gear Addict
 

I think the whole cooling focus should not be limited to the CPU. CPUs and graphics chips use a lot of electrical energy and thus produce lots of heat but they are relatively heat tolerant and relatively easy to replace in the unlikely case of a crash (I am not an over-clocker).

What I always worry more about is the hard disks. Their ageing process starts accelerating at as low as 40 C, and this is where my work is on. Okay, I back up everything but moving an OS and SW Installation and projects to a new disk is lots of hassle.

First thing I always do is try and keep my energy consumption low so there is not so much to cool anyway.
Old 22nd April 2009
  #19
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Arrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by waltermusik View Post
I think the whole cooling focus should not be limited to the CPU. CPUs and graphics chips use a lot of electrical energy and thus produce lots of heat but they are relatively heat tolerant and relatively easy to replace in the unlikely case of a crash (I am not an over-clocker).

What I always worry more about is the hard disks. Their ageing process starts accelerating at as low as 40 C, and this is where my work is on. Okay, I back up everything but moving an OS and SW Installation and projects to a new disk is lots of hassle.

First thing I always do is try and keep my energy consumption low so there is not so much to cool anyway.
koolance has water cooling options for HDDs
Old 22nd April 2009
  #20
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The MPCist's Avatar
 

watercooling sounds dangerous. It raises the heat (with its bulky stuff all inside the computer constricting airflow and then lowers it a bit..... Naw, not worth it. A few of my friends got their computer insides 'washed' using this.....
Old 22nd April 2009
  #21
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Altitude909's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by The MPCist View Post
watercooling sounds dangerous. It raises the heat (with its bulky stuff all inside the computer constricting airflow and then lowers it a bit..... Naw, not worth it. A few of my friends got their computer insides 'washed' using this.....
+1. Not worth it all. Lots of fun to change the water regularly too. If you do it, get a HUGE case. A small chassis will get VERY hot inside due to the poor airflow around other components. Had a big watercooled rig a couple of years ago for my P4 and dont miss it at all
Old 22nd April 2009
  #22
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Arrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altitude909 View Post
+1. Not worth it all. Lots of fun to change the water regularly too. If you do it, get a HUGE case. A small chassis will get VERY hot inside due to the poor airflow around other components. Had a big watercooled rig a couple of years ago for my P4 and dont miss it at all
theres water cooling for North Bridge, SouthBridge chip, mosfet chps, hard drives, the back of the motherboard all.
Old 22nd April 2009
  #23
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and again why bother?

the only point to water cooling is for extreme over clocking.

i can build a air cooled system that is every bit as quiet.
the loudest thing in a system is the harddrives there isnt a thing you can do about that.(other than add noise barrier)


all the water cooling stuff out there is from very loud to louder than air cooling other than the Zalman stuff.

so unless overclocking like mad i fail to see the point

Scott
ADK
Old 23rd April 2009
  #24
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Arrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcschild View Post
and again why bother?
the only point to water cooling is for extreme over clocking.
i can build a air cooled system that is every bit as quiet.
the loudest thing in a system is the harddrives there isnt a thing you can do about that.(other than add noise barrier)
all the water cooling stuff out there is from very loud to louder than air cooling other than the Zalman stuff.
so unless overclocking like mad i fail to see the point
Scott
ADK
have you seen inside an Air cooled PC in a dusty enviroment ?
when Air cooled PC is dirty, temperature increases.

water cooling is cool!

quiet for you is ?
20dB, 40dB, 60dB ? at 1meter? 2 meters? 3meters?

your temperature when operating at full load?
the coretemp 0.94 ? i7 920 ?
the north & south bridge chip temperature?
hard drives temperatures?
CPUID has a link to nice temperature & fan speed measurement utilitys.

what box/case do you use, that has air filters in each case hole?
...
in water cooling systems, the bigger & better the radiator, water pump & tube size, the less fans are needed.
also diferent water blocks give diferent performance.
look at this:
ERM-2K3U (3U), 1 Pump [no nozzles] - Water cooling systems, pc liquid cooling kit, cpu, video card, hard drive
or this:
ERM-3K4U5 (4U), 5 Pumps - Water cooling systems, pc liquid cooling kit, cpu, video card, hard drive

Old 24th April 2009
  #25
Gear Addict
 

Unbelievable how much money people spend on this stuff. Water cooled computers? Jesus...
Old 24th April 2009
  #26
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spol's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by space2012 View Post
have you seen inside an Air cooled PC in a dusty enviroment ?
when Air cooled PC is dirty, temperature increases.
water cooling is cool!
quiet for you is ?
20dB, 40dB, 60dB ? at 1meter? 2 meters? 3meters?
Is this a joke?

Water cooling is a not serious practice but it's fun and very time consuming so it's ok as a hobby but nothing too serious and very unnecessary. You need good airflow in any computer case water cooled or not water cooled, because there are more components than just the CPU, GPU and HD that need to be cooled off, so there will always be dust to deal with. Well made computer cases come with filters which can block most of the dust and you just rinse them out once in while. And as for the noise, you can build silent computers without being modder, anyone can do it, and it doesn't have to cost an arm and leg. I'm talking about a real silent computer that makes no sound louder than 19db measured from a meter away running at full speed for extended hours, and all components are properly cooled, ohhh and there is no pump noise or worries of leakage.
Old 24th April 2009
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by space2012 View Post
Please follow your advice, and remove the Water/H2O from your Car/Automovile.
please stop using horrible car analogies when talking about computers.
it's not a car, cars are nothing like computers, car anlogies fail every time because they run on a premise of like similarities that don't exist.

for instance my computer cpu does not get to 400 degrees farenheit if left uncooled. nor is my cpu heating up by causing explosions inside a large metal chamber. there is no correlation between a car engine cooling and computer cooling.

besides with a koolance you get temperatures HIGHER than with a heatpipe air cooler and 120 mm fan like the noctua that has 20 db operational noise levels. water cooling has higher noise levels except for the very largest and most expensive and troublesome to fit kits. there is no point in water cooling anymore. cpu temps don't get so high that they need water cooling anymore and the potential for hazard and the maintenance on water cooling is too high. also water cooling the southbridge is also no longer needed, phenom II and core i7 have on die memory controllers, you aren't going to get a p48 / 780i southbridge heating problem anymore as the memory controller is no longer there and overclocking doesn't cause massive thermal ramping in the chipset anymore.


the debate over water cooling is simply those that have a water cooling system they want to sell you trying to convince you that it is superior to a heat pipe large heatsink and 120 mm fan setup. or it's from those who wasted the money and are trying to convince others and themselves that it was worthwhile.

for extreme overclocking stirred mineral oil, and vapor phase, and tec (peltier), and ln2 especially beat the crap out of water blocks. for everyday use a 120 mm heatpipe air cooler will beat a water block at standard 24/7 overclock rates. the day of water cooling is definately over, it can't get you higher clocks than other less setup hassle methods, nor is it better than everyday air cooling from a high end cooler like a thermalright ultra 120 or noctua nh-u12p.

also the noctua is near dead silent, you cannot hear one with the case side off and your head near the case over the noise a hard drive makes inside a silencing enclosure. water makes noise more than the noctua does and only if you spend around $400 are you going to beat it's cooling ability. the noctua is around $70.
Old 24th April 2009
  #28
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as much as i think water cooling is a complete waste ot time and money for a daw there are a few things i disagree with.

1) water cooling will keep a cpu cooler than air cooling.
2) some water coolers (Zalman resorator) are as quiet but you have this big ugly external thing to try and hide somewhere.
3) for overclocking water will definately get you farther

where do i think you need water cooling
1) extreme OCing
2) home theatre applications where a high GHz cpu and GPU are used.

due to the small case, small enclosed space its in (no where for the heat to go)
and the need for quiet i use water cooling on my HTPC.
the downside? the ugly thing on top of my entertainment center which is hidden fairly well by a large picture.

Scott
ADK
Old 24th April 2009
  #29
Gear Addict
 
spol's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcschild View Post

where do i think you need water cooling
1) extreme OCing
2) home theatre applications where a high GHz cpu and GPU are used.

That is so 2004; You can extreme OC a 45nm CPU using the stock heatsink these days lol, not to mention a good aftermarket heataisnk with a good fan is a much better solution for DAW and HTPC and anything else you name . Who cares if water will make your CPU 2 Celsius cooler? Is that supposed to be a safer solution? What you need is a good heatsink with widely spaced thin fins like the Ninja and any silent fan will cool your OCed CPU as long as you clear the air pathway from cables and etc.
Old 24th April 2009
  #30
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LOL
do you even know who i am?

i sell overclocked systems with Air cooling.
a 920 to 3.6 is not extreme

a 920 to over 4GHz is good luck getting that on air very often
920 to 5ghz wont happen with with air never mind quiet air.

oh and feel free to come to my house and get my Core i7 965 with GTX 295 video
to work in the small hole with no air flow it lives in with air cooling and not rebooting

Scott
ADK
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