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Presonus Bans People For Speaking The Truth....
Old 26th January 2016
  #31
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G-Sun's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by loopy View Post
So now it's time to reconsider my options.... I think it's time to toss Presonus to the curb. Why? They obviously don't care about providing the consumer with the best possible product based upon feedback. They really don't. My older posts are still on the board and you can look for yourself, at least until Presonus deletes those as well. Name is Keys88... So what do you think fellow slutz?
I looked at your last posts,
and I agree, no flame-war on your part.

In fact I used S1 v.2 and experienced a post being censored
when I described some frustrating problems.

Personally I can't stand this kind of attitude,
so I left.

I must say, I've also met many helpful and respectful mods over there as well.
Old 26th January 2016
  #32
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bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Mulcahy View Post
I was at the Presonus booth at NAMM. They seem to really be pushing their control surfaces but not a Faderport in sight. I spoke with them and support for the Faderport (owner) is essentially over with.

I'm recently in the market for a new production DAW. My current (Samplitude) has plagued me for years on and off with ASIO errors on various computers, system configs, soundcards (DING DONG, IT'S THE SOFTWARE!).

I've been testing out S1, really dig it but... Like the Faderport I get the feeling from the company and the vibe at NAMM that S1 is an afterthought that at some point may go the way of the dinosaurs. I don't want to invest 1-5 years of my time to find out there's no more support for it.

I was recently on hold for hours on end just trying to get through to their tech support. It seems they're email only these days? From the lack of support I was surprised they had as big of a booth as they did at NAMM. I was actually under the impression they might be going out of business.

I'll pass...
I get the impression that the SW and the HW divisions are totally separate... This tends to show its face in small ways, but I'd think that SW would be more profitable for them.
Old 26th January 2016
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Buck View Post
What do you consider high? Using REAPER v5.11 x64 with my Apollo's IDC off I am getting decent RTL's:

Universal Audio Apollo
I/O Buffer Size 64 (44.1Khz)
Resulting Latency 5.8 ms Roundtrip (2.1ms Output)

I/O Buffer Size 32 (44.1Khz)
Resulting Latency 4.0 ms Roundtrip (1.2ms Output)

To me, anything over 10ms RT is high and probably something I would have an issue with.

Cheers,

Billy Buck
First off, it looks like UAD have improved their TB drivers. Round trip at 32 samples used to be about 8ms.

I get 2.8ms at 48K on my Ensemble TB.

With the Apollo...try adding a couple UAD plugins from the DAW (not from the UAD console), and see what kind of latency you get (not reported in the DAW, but actually measured via loopback). You'll find yourself exceeding that 10ms threshold.

Not a knock on UAD....the point with that system is it allows you to use UAD plugins at the hardware level before hitting the DAW, which yields very low latency. UAD plugins have always doubled the DAW's latency when instantiated within the DAW. If you work within the limitations, it's an incredible system.

Just wondering if the Presonus is the same....I don't know the details of the OP's issue, but if he is trying to use the Presonus DSP plugins, but using them through the DAW, and not within the Presonus console, their may be hardware limitations that are increasing the latency.
Old 26th January 2016
  #34
Lives for gear
 

Does anyone not agree if they did not have studio one nobody would care what presonus comes out with? I'm not sure I take them serious as a rme, UAD etc. They come out with a lot of stuff, but their hardware doesn't last long. Go on youtube and type in presonus problems. Hopefully they get it together and stop hiring lsu graduates.
Old 26th January 2016
  #35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Mulcahy View Post
Try calling their tech support number right now. Srs, put the phone down with the speaker on and see how long you'll be on the line before their phone-queue hangs up on you. Then call back, opt out of the phone-queue and leave your name and number and see if you ever get a call back from them. I did not btw.

Then send an email to tech support and time it to see how long it takes before tech support gets back in touch with you.

Then imagine you are at some event where you're trying to impress your clients with your professional skill-set they hired you for and something breaks down with your Presonus manufactured equipment and you need assistance ASAP. That's the imagery that plays in the back of my head when I think about gear investment.

When I had the 192, I tried to call tech support, but gave up after being on a long time. So, I'm there with you. That's why I sent the email. Then I got blamed for their wonky interface. Hey, we see here the reason why there's no difference between usb 2 and usb 3 speeds on your system is because your usb 3 ports are outdated! Seriously, but I just used the Zoom uac2 with no problems. Yea, we see your drivers are outdated.

I also don't have to imagine the scenario with the client. I had some clients over trying to show off the "burr brown" converters, and how it was the best thing since sliced bread. Ha! Played back a session at 64 buffer size, that I was easily able to do on the Zoom, and the Avid Quartet, and snap, crackle, and pop. Even at 128. I had to hike that bad boy up to 256. I couldn't pack it fast enough!
Old 26th January 2016
  #36
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skiltrip's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by sopre View Post
Does anyone not agree if they did not have studio one nobody would care what presonus comes out with? I'm not sure I take them serious as a rme, UAD etc. They come out with a lot of stuff, but their hardware doesn't last long. Go on youtube and type in presonus problems. Hopefully they get it together and stop hiring lsu graduates.
Studio One definitely gave them some much needed cred and renewed life.
Those StudioLive digital mixers seem to be pretty cool too for live sound but that's not my scene so I don't know much about them.

I do know that before finally settling on Focusrite interfaces, I had a brief run-in with some of Presonus' VSL series interfaces, and their VSL software was causing kernel panics on Mac. It seemed like something that no one was talking about or admitting, but it was definitely real. I kind of liked the hardware side of it, but I'm very happy that I moved to Focusrite because the Scarlett stuff has been a dream compared to my less-than-deal history with interfaces.

As much as I liked, and actually still like Studio One, version 2 gave me TERRIBLE stability issues that I could never work through, even with help from tech support. I did buy version 3, which seemed to improve things, but I still get occasional crashes when closing the program.

All in all, running Pro Tools 12 with a Focusrite Scarlett is making me happier than I have been in a long time when it comes to workflow and stability and just letting me make music.
Old 26th January 2016
  #37
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Joe Porto's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sopre View Post
Does anyone not agree if they did not have studio one nobody would care what presonus comes out with? I'm not sure I take them serious as a rme, UAD etc. They come out with a lot of stuff, but their hardware doesn't last long. Go on youtube and type in presonus problems. Hopefully they get it together and stop hiring lsu graduates.
The Central Station monitor controller put them back on the RADAR after the Firestation disaster. And then Studio 1 came out....so yes, without Studio 1, they'd probably not have survived.
Old 26th January 2016
  #38
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maks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Porto View Post
First off, it looks like UAD have improved their TB drivers. Round trip at 32 samples used to be about 8ms.

I get 2.8ms at 48K on my Ensemble TB.

With the Apollo...try adding a couple UAD plugins from the DAW (not from the UAD console), and see what kind of latency you get (not reported in the DAW, but actually measured via loopback). You'll find yourself exceeding that 10ms threshold.

Not a knock on UAD....the point with that system is it allows you to use UAD plugins at the hardware level before hitting the DAW, which yields very low latency. UAD plugins have always doubled the DAW's latency when instantiated within the DAW. If you work within the limitations, it's an incredible system.

Just wondering if the Presonus is the same....I don't know the details of the OP's issue, but if he is trying to use the Presonus DSP plugins, but using them through the DAW, and not within the Presonus console, their may be hardware limitations that are increasing the latency.
TIP: UAD console mixer has "virtual channels" , you can send any # daw channels, groups, VI's into console and process them the same way you can with live inputs, sub 2ms..and without changing buffer or adding latency to what you have set. The time to add UAD to DAW mixer channels is when your close to the final stages of mixing or mastering (when latency doesnt really matter and computer can benefit from increasing buffers for more native plugs )
Old 26th January 2016
  #39
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Billy Buck's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Porto View Post
First off, it looks like UAD have improved their TB drivers. Round trip at 32 samples used to be about 8ms.
Yes, when the first Apollo TB (PCIe) drivers were released there was a lot of customer discontent with the RTL's. UA subsequently made improvements to the driver latency. This did not happen overnight, but over the course of several Apollo driver releases to where they are now.

Quote:
With the Apollo...try adding a couple UAD plugins from the DAW (not from the UAD console), and see what kind of latency you get (not reported in the DAW, but actually measured via loopback). You'll find yourself exceeding that 10ms threshold.

Yes, the Apollo can only maintain a light load @ 32 samples before crackling in the audio. At 64 samples (where I stay a lot of the time) I can load my Apollo QUAD to 95% DSP load and use 30+ native plugins crackle free and still maintain 5.8ms RTL. Of course, this is not RME performance, but still way less than 10msec which is the breakpoint for me. As far as adding UAD plug-ins from the DAW, you will always get added latency because UAD plug-ins have an inherent plug-in latency (1x the audio buffer). Many UAD plug-ins are upsampled which adds even more plug-in latency when used from the DAW. Which is why UA came out with the Apollo so you can process them in real time from the Console app on the front end before the in coming audio ever hits the ASIO buffers making RTL's irrelevant.

Cheers,

Billy Buck
Old 26th January 2016
  #40
So it begins.
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Old 26th January 2016
  #41
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Presonus hardware and communication has been all over the map for me.

Firestudio Mobile was a great little device before the headphone amp died. In fact at one point I communicated rather well with the folks at the top to specify about 40 of those for a innovative electronic music lab at a university as part of an overall school of music project. Yet somehow I could only get them vaguely interested in the project even though it was a cutting edge experimental production environment well ahead of its time. Their marketing missed out on an excellent opportunity with that one.
StudioLive boards are built well and function well. In fact I have been surprised at the longevity and durability of those consoles in harsh environments; making me eat my words in respect to the lack of motorized faders. I decided if those products hold up that well under such harsh conditions then they obviously made the right choice in that respect. That all changed when they developed larger format consoles where lack of moving faders is simply not acceptable in the markets and applications intended.
FaderPort is good - would be great with some added flexibility in programming and some on board metering, fixing of the pan travel, etc. Worth the bucks - even if you have to go somewhere other than the project page to download the correct driver...
StudioOne - great piece of software via the Nuendo team. Smartest marketing decision by Presonus in my opinion.

The bad -
Consistent focus on live tracking vs. low latency operation in respect to audio interfaces
Unnatural love for firewire until recently
Silly decision to include Dante options for recent console products but not as the protocol for new audio interfaces
Their fear of motorized faders driving them into the touchscreen world, which is just not a format that flies in the professional production world. Leaving all of their live sound products being only applicable to smaller types of production/venue.
Ridiculous move to attempt to enter the commercial install audio world by purchasing a line array product line nobody has ever heard of or requested. Coincides with their decision to go touchscreen for live sound products.

Hopefully StudioOne continues to be a semi-autonomous entity that is funded and sold by Presonus.

These recent moves show a definite disconnect from their product development team and the markets they aim to penetrate. But it is exactly what I expect from a company that I found nebulous in respect to communication. Here I was specifying product for millions of dollars of commercial installations, exactly the market they are attempting to penetrate, and yet the communication and lack of understanding in respect to product development shows such a strong disconnect for that world.

I have the feeling they are biting off more than they can chew while simultaneously eating the wrong meals. In my opinion that only leads to one of two destinations - purchase by another company or a redevelopment of product focus from top to bottom. Not sure they have the resources for the latter and if the former happens I hope StudioOne ends up in capable hands.

The single most effective move they could make would be to take an active role in their own forum with straight talk and no bullsh%t. Too many posts, including some of mine, go forever without an official (or even unofficial) response. It's a one person full-time job that would do wonders for their image in my opinion.

Cheers,
Brock
Old 27th January 2016
  #42
Here for the gear
 

Hi Loopy,

I'm PresonusSupt2, the administrator of the Presonus forum. I'm reviewing the situation to find out what happened and why.

From what I see of your post history there was no reason for this to have happened. We allow opinions on our site and take great pride in letting our customers voice their opinions of our equipment in a respectable manner.

I will contact you via email as soon as we have finished investigating the situation.
Old 27th January 2016
  #43
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bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mashedmitten View Post
Got into recording via computer in 2006, bought a Fire Box firewire interface that came with Cubase LE1 (best Cubase software made, no eLicenser). Had an issue with the junk MIDI drivers for the kit, contacted Presonus support and got none because I ran XP Media Center Edition. Problem was Cubase LE didn't have the system timestamp option to bypass Presonus' crappy clock. Sorted the issue on my own by using the USB connection for my MIDI kit.

Tried S1 this weekend, all I can say is that for me, it's total garbage. Wouldn't spend my worst enemy's dime for it.

I'll never buy anything else from them.
Their interfaces are amateur hour... I don't know what you're needing from a daw, but s1 certainly isn't garbage...

I'm all for hate where it's due though!
Old 27th January 2016
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood View Post
but s1 certainly isn't garbage...
I like it a lot. Just get a feeling that down the road they may decide it's not worth doing updates for it anymore (sound familiar? lol).

I say this because they're more of a hardware company. If I'm going to invest a lot of time learning a new DAW app I'd like to go with a company that it's their bread and butter if you know what I mean?

I'll tell you a sad DAW meets hardware company story from personal experience...

I had been working with Vision (midi, later Studio Vision Pro DAW) since the 80's. Gibson (guitars) bought Opcode the makers of Vision/OMS in the late 90's and ran it into the ground almost overnight. There went my baby and a lot of my time & money invested went with it.

Not saying the same will hold true here, just saying...

Old 27th January 2016
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Mulcahy View Post
I like it a lot. Just get a feeling that down the road they may decide it's not worth doing updates for it anymore (sound familiar? lol).
Isn't Studio One's head developer the main author of Nuendo? Maybe he jumped ship for greener pastures and found it at Presonus?

I don't use it myself, but I have friends who use it who rave about it. It seems established enough, and has the developer clout behind it.

Presonus is certainly planted in "affordable" hardware sector, but there are plenty of people on a budget to keep them in business.
Old 27th January 2016
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Mulcahy View Post
I like it a lot. Just get a feeling that down the road they may decide it's not worth doing updates for it anymore (sound familiar? lol).

I say this because they're more of a hardware company. If I'm going to invest a lot of time learning a new DAW app I'd like to go with a company that it's their bread and butter if you know what I mean?

I'll tell you a sad DAW meets hardware company story from personal experience...

I had been working with Vision (midi, later Studio Vision Pro DAW) since the 80's. Gibson (guitars) bought Opcode the makers of Vision/OMS in the late 90's and ran it into the ground almost overnight. There went my baby and a lot of my time & money invested went with it.

Not saying the same will hold true here, just saying...

Yeah people felt the same about Logic.
Old 27th January 2016
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Porto View Post
Isn't Studio One's head developer the main author of Nuendo? Maybe he jumped ship for greener pastures and found it at Presonus?

I don't use it myself, but I have friends who use it who rave about it. It seems established enough, and has the developer clout behind it.

Presonus is certainly planted in "affordable" hardware sector, but there are plenty of people on a budget to keep them in business.
I think the software is not the issue. The hardware is the problem. I think they come out with so much stuff they can't keep up. Jim Odom said they wanted to come out with 100 products. How are you going to come out with all of that if you can't fix the damn audio interface drivers or montiors with blown fuses. Studio One has snatched up a lot of customers from different DAW's and has racked up awards. Do people really think reaper or sonar is going to outlast studio one. I think Justin is going to sell it down the line personally. Todays market has hardware and software. I don't think would have a large customer base in general if they didn't have a software division. You the studio live mixers and that's it.
Old 27th January 2016
  #48
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I don't want to totally bash Presonus. The OP is about Presonus forum censorship....

Studio One seems to be a great program. Basically a lean and mean redesign of Cubendo, without having to keep up with legacy features.

The ADL pre has a following. They were one of the first with affordable multichannel converters, preamps, compressors. The Central Station was a game changer...an affordable, passive monitor controller with remote control.

They would not be my first choice fro an audio interface though, but as I said, I hold grudges.
Old 27th January 2016
  #49
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bgood's Avatar
Again... Their interfaces? Poop

The whole vsl line was just the same poop in different sized boxes.

The monitor station and the digimax stuff? Rock solid here..

I can't say enough that when I've dealt with the tech support there's a tangible sense that the SW and hw biz is completely seperate...

I don't know if the coded it all in house, but their stock plugins are -- as most daws are nowadays -- rock solid and integrate cool little features like the GR on a compressor showing up in the mixer...

Their add on plugs like the adl channel strip are as close to a 1:1 emu as I've seen or used...

But to the ip's point, their forums are tightly controlled... It's annoying enough here on GS when a moderator deletes your post, it seems extra offensive when a company owned forum does the same thing when l you're trying to do is get answers about a flaw in a program you have spent 400-500 bucks on...
Old 27th January 2016
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sopre View Post
Yeah people felt the same about Logic.
Which, ironically, I used until it was purchased by Apple and PC support ended with version 4.72.
Old 27th January 2016
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sopre View Post
I don't think would have a large customer base in general if they didn't have a software division.
You would have never guessed that was the case if you were at their booth at NAMM this year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sopre View Post
Yeah people felt the same about Logic.
Funny you mention it... I was one of those people

Right after Gibson ran Vision into the ground I felt around testing out other DAWs. Ended up going with Logic. Moved off the Mac platform started running it on PC's (for a lot of reasons). Then it was sold to Apple, and Apple pulled the plug on the PC version. LOL.

It never ends
Old 27th January 2016
  #52
Gear Head
 

To the OP. Just a heads up, I had my Presonus Forum account banned a little while back. I don't really post much and hadn't logged in for about 6 months and when I went to login to reply in a thread, I got the "User account has been permanently banned" message.

I sent an email to web support and they said it was an error from their forum software. They reset it and all was good.
Old 27th January 2016
  #53
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by loopy View Post
As a longterm member of the Presonus official board I have recently been banned for actively discussing the horrible RTL (round trip latency) of their new Studio 192 interface. Everything I have posted has been factual and backed up by real numbers including TAFKAT and daxmaestro's test results. There was no trolling or antagonizing members, just simple posts and very few, like 5, regarding the poor latency of the Studio 192. And most of those posts were ASKING for an official response from Presonus with some real numbers.
No arguments. No nothing like that. Just inquiries and facts.

Here is the message:

"You have been permanently banned from this board.
Please contact the Board Administrator for more information.
A ban has been issued on your username."

So I can see where Presonus is going with this. They refuse to admit that their Studio 192 product does not live up to their tricky marketing of USB 3 and "near zero latency" and they don't like the fact that others who are not sheep have pointed this out and demanded that they respond with some actual numbers.

This is really sad considering I have supported Presonus Studio One since V1 days and currently am recording with V3. But you know something? I'm reconsidering that decision because do I really want to be associated with and support a company that tries to censor the truth?

Again, no flamewars and I don't think I have 50 posts on that site and that's going back to when S1 V1 was released.

So now it's time to reconsider my options.... I think it's time to toss Presonus to the curb. Why? They obviously don't care about providing the consumer with the best possible product based upon feedback. They really don't. My older posts are still on the board and you can look for yourself, at least until Presonus deletes those as well. Name is Keys88... So what do you think fellow slutz?
U ok hun?
Old 27th January 2016
  #54
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Mulcahy View Post
You would have never guessed that was the case if you were at their booth at NAMM this year.



Funny you mention it... I was one of those people

Right after Gibson ran Vision into the ground I felt around testing out other DAWs. Ended up going with Logic. Moved off the Mac platform started running it on PC's (for a lot of reasons). Then it was sold to Apple, and Apple pulled the plug on the PC version. LOL.

It never ends
First off I would never trust Gibson over presonus lol.
Old 27th January 2016
  #55
Tui
Gear Guru
 
Tui's Avatar
SpiderAudio, I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve, but your posts are no advertisements for Presonus.
Old 27th January 2016
  #56
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bgood's Avatar
I wonder if the spotty customer service isn't just a function of a relatively small HW maker who added a SW product... Just not enough folks working on it

I suspect that there must be many more presonus SW users than he customers...
Old 28th January 2016
  #57
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by PresonusSupt2 View Post
Hi Loopy,

I'm PresonusSupt2, the administrator of the Presonus forum. I'm reviewing the situation to find out what happened and why.

From what I see of your post history there was no reason for this to have happened. We allow opinions on our site and take great pride in letting our customers voice their opinions of our equipment in a respectable manner.

I will contact you via email as soon as we have finished investigating the situation.
Thank you for replying. It looks like my account is active again, at least my test post was posted. I appreciate you getting involved. It would be great if you or maybe another Presonus employee could be a regular here on Gearslutz to offer help and intervene when someone in our community has problems. Not as a substitute for formal technical support but as an addition to grease the gears when needed.
Just a suggestion, and thanks again.
Old 28th January 2016
  #58
Lives for gear
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by owen_musician View Post
U ok hun?
I'm doing fine! Been tied up the past day and a half. Thank you for asking!
Old 28th January 2016
  #59
Lives for gear
 

Thread Starter
For the record I'm the ULTIMATE Studio One fan. I love the software and have been with them since V1. It fits my workflow perfectly and for what I need to do it suits me fine and then some... I realize I went off the rails a bit on this one but the fact that I *am* such a S1 supporter is what got me all torqued up. I truly thank all of my fellow slutz for coming to my aid! It's great to see people helping others in our community and I think we have all learned something from this thread. And thank you all for keeping it civil. We all want the best products we can afford so we can spend our time creating and performing rather than screwing around with hardware, software, computers or so forth.. Thanks again!
Old 28th January 2016
  #60
Gear Nut
 

I had a Firebox years ago that literally had something explode inside and go up in smoke.

Haven't touched anything Presonus since.

I posted that in their forum and they didn't ban me. Good to see you've been reinstated.
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