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Audio Restoration Software: An Affordable Cedar Alternative?
Old 26th December 2015 | Show parent
  #31
Quote:
Originally Posted by d1966 View Post
I agree with a lot of what you're saying. However, distortion-even if there are different flavors-can be fatiguing at best beyond a certain percentage.

If distortion is your pleasure (??), particularly the tube-generated variety, I’d take it up with easily the most knowledgeable tube amp designer I’ve ever encountered, Lynn Olson, the designer of Gary’s Amity 300B amps. Info on the Yamaha JA-6681 compression driver - Page 43 - diyAudio Also, check out The Amity, Raven, and Aurora And I really enjoyed this one The Art of Speaker Design

As for my distorted recordings, I won’t be vastly upgrading the rest of my electronics until after my speakers are built (either cloning the rest of Gary’s or collaborating with Jim Salk for what to put above my Altec 416 midwoofers). But even with my Sennheiser HD 650s plugged into my ancient Revox integrated amp, I could tell that the CD rips which Gary found the most objectionable were definitely harsh sounding compared to other tracks that he either found acceptable or even raved about through his speakers.

Yes, I'm sure that Gary's disliked the music of a several files I sent him, though again most of those were the distorted ones. But I'm very sure that Gary's too fair and objective to be swayed by personal tastes when making assessment regarding audio purity.

And as msmucr emphasizes, I always go the distance to find CDs from the artist’s original labels and/or using the original master tapes transferred by a reputable engineer or studio. But as msmucr laments, sometimes there’s no discernible difference in sound quality between one “Greatest Hits” compilation and other done several years later. But of course, better converters, tape machines, a cleaner AND shorter signal chain and no more “sweetening” than necessary are essential, regardless of the analog source tapes.

If allowable, I could upload two or three of my WAV files here, or pm someone, if they want to take a crack at distortion removal. They can download them from my Outlook Account’s One Drive cloud.

Needless to say, being a music teacher and orchestra conductor, this is Gary’s busy season. Even more than two weeks ago, he had no time to get anywhere near his system. But soon after New Years I’d expect him to be on it.

So if someone with the software and the know-how here really succeeds against the distortion, I certainly would like to get those better sounding files to Gary. There were just 4 distorted files and 2 that Gary said got “congested” during louder passages. Also, one of those files is a duplicate-a remastered version from a boxed set issued in 2008, after the initial 1993 release. Might have better source tapes! Gary never heard that one.

And I wonder if the two “congested” tracks could be helped by RX5’s OR Acon’s phase correction, if perhaps not as well as Cedar’s Phase Corrector? CEDAR Cambridge Phase Corrector

I don't want to touch the audio files. I just want to know what artist/songs it is you are referring to.
Old 26th December 2015
  #32
Gear Nut
 
TonyS's Avatar
 

I've never used the other programs but use Sequoia 13 & Samplitude Pro X 2 Suite.
Samplitude Pro X 2 Suite has some pretty great restoration tools. I know there is a free 30 day free trial.
You can try downloading the trial of the SUITE version and see if it contains all of these tools. If not delete it.
Nothing to lose except some time right?
Old 26th December 2015
  #33
Lives for gear
 
loopy's Avatar
 

Call me confused but exactly what are you trying to accomplish? The way I read this thread is you are trying to remove distortion, phase problems, comb filter FX etc from PRERECORDED music?
Is that true?

First question is why?

Are you looking to remove stuff like drums slamming the tape overloading stuff like this example?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE2fnYpwrng

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=425GpjTSlS4

Again why?

The distortion is part of the character of the sound.

If I am misunderstanding you, ignore this.
Old 26th December 2015 | Show parent
  #34
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kosty's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by d1966 View Post
Maybe they would sound "great" on many systems,
but I strongly doubt it on high res systems like Gary's. It's true that nothing is perfect and that compromises are inescapable. But the fact is that most DIYers, particularly those at threads like this one
Beyond the Ariel - Page 781 - diyAudio or this one My new Beta 12LTA over H-frame Alpha build or this one
http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project0..._Crossover.pdf build speakers and the electronics to drive them to make their best recordings sound their best. The ugly other side is that such transparent systems invariably make their bad recordings sound especially horrible, or fatiguing at best.

Indeed, if one reseller of a few other AR software besides Cedar is unable or unwilling to restore four of WAV files to play satisfactorily on Gary's system then the only solution is to build TWO speaker systems-one for my great recordings and one for my distorted or otherwise flawed ones.
You should discuss your problems in these other forums. Nobody here believes this esoteric audiophile cr*p. I'm sure that you can buy better studio monitors for 1/10th of the price that Gary spent on his stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by d1966 View Post
I do not understand the mechanism behind the in/out phase cancellation problems due to mic placement. Could someone please explain that in detail-or refer me to specific literature?

At the same time, I suspect that many pop music recordings-from the 1950s to date-suffer from this problem. So I thought that Cedar's Phase Corrector (however unaffordable) could fix this problem on CD recording or WAV file CD rip.
There is an explanation on the cedar site : CEDAR Cambridge Phase Corrector

Cedar, RX, etc.. are mostly used in the (film) post-production business to clean up recordings on film sets. Not mainly for music.

If you really need to destroy your music you can use Waves Inphase to correct your non existant phase issues on all your recordings from the 50's.

Good luck and good bye
And I hope you never talk to Gary again
Old 26th December 2015
  #35
Lives for gear
 

You all should've seen what happened when I let Gary look in my refrigerator.
Old 27th December 2015 | Show parent
  #36
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LDStudios View Post
I don't want to touch the audio files. I just want to know what artist/songs it is you are referring to.
Do I like this music? Yes. But why these 4 particular tracks to pick for restoration? Because out of the 70 uncompressed WAV files of CD rips that I sent to Gary to play on his transparent system these are the ones that he found most objectionable and fatiguing-far more so because they were flawed recordings than anything else. And they are:

“Hundred Days of the Dragon Suite. Track1 “Slumbering Giant”/”Malleable Flesh” http://www.amazon.com/The-Outer-Limi.../dp/B000001P19 Recorded by Artie Becker at Radio Recorders or United Western, circa 1962. Digitized from Frontiere’s tapes by Bob “crossfade” Fisher. Final digital mastering by Bernie Grundman. 1993 Crescendo Records

Probably the exact same track. All engineering apparently done by James Nelson at Digital Outland, Tacoma, WA. 2008 La La Land Records.
Dominic Frontiere - The Outer Limits - Amazon.com Music

The track from the 1993 CD was the one that Gary heard and said was a “harsh and distorted” recording. The 2008 CD might be a bit less distorted and/or it may be a different take of the same part of Frontiere’s suite.

“Look of Love”
Sergio Mendes & Brasil '66 - Look Around - Amazon.com Music
Recorded by Larry Levine and/or Henry Lewy at Sunset Sound, Western Recorders and/or Annex Studios. Digitized by Fletcher Munson (sic) at Universal Mastering Studios-East.

“Hurts So Bad”
http://smile.amazon.com/Best-Little-...+the+imperials Digitized and mastered by Kevin Reeves at Capitol Studios.

These last two tracks get “congested” during louder and/or orchestral passages, Gary said.

I apologize to all for being sort of a pest about all of this. I’d certainly welcome any evaluations of these recordings that you would care to make, and any further suggestions.
Old 27th December 2015
  #37
Lives for gear
 
loopy's Avatar
 

So we know what Gary likes, what do *you* like?

This thread reminds me of a Twilight Zone episode "The Old Man In The Cave"... Look it up...
Old 27th December 2015 | Show parent
  #38
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by loopy View Post
Call me confused but exactly what are you trying to accomplish? The way I read this thread is you are trying to remove distortion, phase problems, comb filter FX etc from PRERECORDED music? Is that true?
Exactly.
First question is why?

Are you looking to remove stuff like drums slamming the tape overloading stuff like this example?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE2fnYpwrng

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=425GpjTSlS4

Again why?

The distortion is part of the character of the sound. [QUOTE] I know that adding distortion is often done today in many recordings (e.g. I even think it was done on Best Coast's first album, though some of their live youtubes are clean enough to be captivating
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqeTvF0YVHY ). I did read once in an 80s issue of REC E/P that one Motown engineer said that he would "even pin the meters...." during either a current recording or one he did back in the 60s or 70s. But if you spent as much time at Lynn Olson's thread as i have you come to realize that amplifier and speaker generated distortion, being for the most part inescapable at some point, can be hellishly complex enough to contend with. And depending on the need to balance numerous several factors when designing high def sound audio system, you may well be advised to go for a design that tends to produce more of a less offending kind of distortion than less of another. At the same time though brilliant amplifier designers like, for example, Lynn Olson
Beyond the Ariel - Page 886 - diyAudio and/or Nelson Pass Pass Labs - Page 51 - diyAudio tend differ rather strongly on how to achieve this, I think that both would agree that the utter discordance of most kinds of distortion (however artistically applied) is not something that will translate at all pleasingly in the tube or solid-state amps designed by them and most other notables-and either purchased or cloned by countless DIYers.

You'll often find their amps driving either front or back loaded horn speakers (or a hybrid ribbon or AMT tweeter, horn and cone midwoofer design like Gary's) or open baffle speakers, with dozens of varied horns, drivers and enclosures-very few of which I doubt would sound enjoyable playing a distorted recording by Best Coast, the Vandellas, Dom Frontiere or my niece on piano-that happened because someone cranked up the mic preamp and/or tape recorder gain.

But if you have the software and the experience, why not try it for yourself? Download those four WAV files I just replied to LDStudios about and remove as much distortion and "congestion", while creating the least possible artifacts. Then head for the most kickass upscale hifi store within driving or railway distance; places that have stuff like Audio Research or Rogue Audio tube amps or Pass Labs ss amps on the floor driving really high performance floorstanding speakers. Play both the before and after restored WAV files via a USB drive or CD-R or RW or DVD. THAT's the test that I'd like Gary to do on his system. PM me about it if you want.
Old 27th December 2015 | Show parent
  #39
Here for the gear
 

[QUOTE=TonyS;11567857]I've never used the other programs but use Sequoia 13 & Samplitude Pro X 2 Suite. Samplitude Pro X 2 Suite has some pretty great restoration tools. [QUOTE] I have Samplitude Pro X Suite and I did recently try once to remove the distortion from one of those two Dom Frontiere tracks. Again, it was my first attempt, and I don’t recall if Pro X gives you the option of globally or surgically “painting away” (as Izotope would say) the distortion. I’m pretty sure that I just clicked the global mode.

As for audible results via my M-Audio card feeding my Sennheiser 650 phones (those gripping clam shells), I'm pretty certain there were artifacts, and which actually made me a bit nauseous. I’d have to try this again to be sure. But I am trying to persuade someone to try using their RX5 standard or Advanced to process the four WAV files I have listed here on this page.
Old 10th July 2018
  #40
Lives for gear
 
sardi's Avatar
 

Oh I’d totally forgotten about this thread.

Thanks for bumping it and giving me a morning chuckle.
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