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APPLE, put down that iPhone and Listen Up. NOW. Audio Interfaces
Old 20th January 2007
  #1
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Matthew Murray's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
APPLE, put down that iPhone and Listen Up. NOW.

Dear Apple,

I don't mean to be a princess, but I'm pissed off.

See, I bought into a program called Logic Audio Platinum several years ago and it cost me a whole lot of money. I chose Logic because I figured it was the most trailblazing app and I had a feeling it was going to make massive strides and overtake the protools monopoly.

Now that my hardware is up to snuff and I'm transitioning into a public studio and mixing out of the box for the first time, it's come to my attention that there are some key issues that you are not addressing in a timely matter. This has me CHOKED, and I'm not the only one.

See, I've been bragging to all my friends that Logic Pro is bloody fantastic. And it is, really. The workflow, the customization factor, the slick GUI, the MIDI handling, the soft synths, even some of the plugins. And I was right about it having the potential to beat out protools. Now more than ever it's evident: Apogee developed Symphony. We can now have a native system that meets or surpasses Protools systems. It would seem we've done it!

Here's the thing, Apple. You bought Logic from eMagic and I got really giddy. I've always thought you were innovators. Clever mofos. Left brain tied to Right brain kind of people. And you are.

And I know this post isn't very original. There are posts all over gearslutz and other boards right now clamoring about how another trade show has passed and Logic 8 still hasn't been released.

But seriously, you beautiful losers, the last major update to Logic happened in September of 2004. That's two and a half years ago. And today as I began mixing my first project with my new outboard-a-plenty rig, I hit a snag.

It would seem that sending a track out to some outboard, and bringing it back through Apogee's ultra-low-latency symphony rig still results in a wee bit of delay. I suppose that's to be expected. Even analog gear will introduce a little bit of delay. Sounds like phasing when blended with the original track. It's ugly.

So I figure, "no problem, I've heard Logic has delay compensation just like every other modern DAW on the planet".

After some quick research here it comes to my attention that this is not the case.

Steinberg has developed technology in Nuendo and Cubase that will ping outboard to automatically detect the amount of latency and adjust processed tracks returning to the DAW to be synchronised up with the original material. Apple, aren't you guys innovators? Are you going to sit there and motherf**king take that?

I want to do parallel compression. I want to do outboard compression, PERIOD, and I don't want to do it all in real time at mixdown. I want to be able to EQ something with outboard and bring it back into the mix environment. I don't want to have to adjust for delay, manually or by using some third party delay compensation plugin. I don't want to think about these things. I also don't want to hear that users of cheaper DAWs DON'T have to think about these things. That just makes me feel like you don't love me. And those of us who paid thousands for our DAW software want to feel loved. Seriously, why don't you love me?

If you're too busy building iPhones and can't get your **** together and put out Logic 8 soon, that's fine, but tell us. We're all sitting here forced to seek out backwards-assed ways of solving these problems. Logic 8 HAS to have these delay compensation issues solved, creatively and efficiently. Some improved audio editing and a more streamlined interface would be nice too, but I'd pay for a major upgrade even if it just had the delay compensation alone.

Your time has run out. You have one week. I demand that one of your iStaff (developers or beta testers or executives) email or private message me within one week to explain what I can expect and WHEN, or else I'm jumping ship.

And I've been with logic for YEARS.

I'm sure I'm not the only one. And you bastards can take as long as you need to develop this right, but if you leave us, your professional user base, in the dark much longer, we're leaving.

I'll go to Cubase or Nuendo. I'm not scared. What I am is pissed off. I'm pissed off at you, Apple.

I didn't want to spend my friday night writing a nasty open letter to you candy-coating jackasses. I wanted to be mixing. But i got so wound up trying to align a bunch of processed and out-of-sync tracks in Logic Pro 7 that I either had to write this sprawling, rambling, seemingly endless wimpery letter, or blow something up. And I'm not a violent man.

If you've made it to the end, I'll demand it one more time for emphasis: Write me with an explanation of when this feature can be implemented in a future release, or I will kill logic and move on. I might even sell my macs out of spite, even though I love them so.

If you don't appease me now, I will do everything I can to make YOUR life a living hell, Apple. And trust me, I'm obnoxious. I can do it.

I look forward to hearing from you. Kisses.
Old 20th January 2007
  #2
Lives for gear
 

I really enjoyed that read. If music doesn't work out you have a future in writing.

I think Logic 8 is going to be H-U-G-E. I just hope it's here this qtr.
Old 20th January 2007
  #3
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Henchman's Avatar
You really need to understand that Apple doesn't give a flying f%$# about the minute number of musicians using his computers and applications.

Seriously, the sooner you guys accept that none of these computer companies, wether it's MS or Apple, care at all aboput you, and are not out to bring you heavenly bliss, the better.
All they care about is the bottom line.
Apple can make more money selling Iphones, MP3's, and MP3 players, than they can off of Logic Audio and Apple computers.

If they cared about us, they would steranline the OS's more, and make them be faster, and use less resources.

They don't care about us. They care about Joe blow who wanst their computer to be liek living in Star Wars or Star Trek. Pretty 3d graphics, bouncing balls, talking voices, toucj sensitive screens.

So, wgere do you think they're going to spend the money?
Old 20th January 2007
  #4
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Matthew Murray's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Henchman, I think your argument only works if you view apple as one big team of morons doing everything under the same giant roof.

Apple has divisions, and in reality something tells me that the people on the Logic Pro team didn't have much to do with the iPhone.

So what has that team been doing the last two years?! Apple's other endeavours, although it is fun to think simplistically, shouldn't have any bearing on progress with regard to Logic Pro. As long as there's a Logic Pro team, there should be Logic Pro progress.
Old 20th January 2007
  #5
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Murray View Post
Henchman, I think your argument only works if you view apple as one big team of morons doing everything under the same giant roof.

Apple has divisions, and in reality something tells me that the people on the Logic Pro team didn't have much to do with the iPhone.

So what has that team been doing the last two years?! Apple's other endeavours, although it is fun to think simplistically, shouldn't have any bearing on progress with regard to Logic Pro. As long as there's a Logic Pro team, there should be Logic Pro progress.
No, I'm not even saying this is purely an Apple thing.
As fara s the Logic Pro team goes, those guys could be working on other things as well. How big is the team? It all depends on how much resources (money) is allocated to the project.
And if Jobs says, we need tjose guys to do soem sound programming on FCP or Garageband, or his new fascination, the Iphone, then guess what?
They get pulled off, and Logic goes on the back burner.
Old 20th January 2007
  #6
I agree! I'm sick of Logic not making as many updates as when they were emagic. Apple takes to long withupdates and when they do update it's nothing being solved.

I dunno what move to make because other programs are more buggy
Old 20th January 2007
  #7
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max cooper's Avatar
 

Remember the conspiracy theory that Emagic and Steinberg were gonna merge, thus creating a bigger behemoth than Digidesign, and how Apple were afraid that this would impact the number of Macs sold for high-end PT rigs, so they bought Emagic in order to kill Logic?

Can you prove it ain't so?

I'll be polishing my rifles and stockpiling beef jerky if anyone's wondering.
Old 20th January 2007
  #8
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XHipHop's Avatar
Apple, keep up the good work. I love logic, use it everyday, and think sculpture and ultrabeat were amazing instruments.

I'm glad to be your customer,

XHiphop
Old 20th January 2007
  #9
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I hope (think) that they write it for the new os, but who knows. The teaming efforts with apogee shows that they are serious about this in my oppinion, hopefully something amazing is in the pipeline..
Old 20th January 2007
  #10
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Not that theres much of emagic left working on logic.

most have bailed just like me with logic.

lifes to short to spend it banging your head against the wall waiting for things to get bettter!

</endpessimism>
Old 20th January 2007
  #11
Lives for gear
 

hench....
re hi tech cos couldnt care less.
kudos to u for telling it like it is.
i worked for many tech cos over several decades.
but dont blame the techs or the engineers.
often they want to improve things for the customers,
BUT the dam accountants get in the way.
if companies could make more money selling eggs to chickens they would do it !!
manys the time iwanted to do things for customers but was overruled.
but these were industrial apps not music.
I'm gonna be an iBUM now and go to the beach....lol.
Old 20th January 2007
  #12
Gear Head
 
DeemaBlue's Avatar
 

I also don`t give a s... about the iphone or i ahhhh apple TV.

Where is my Logic Pro 8!!!!
Old 20th January 2007
  #13
Sorry to be pedantic, but it's not your analog gear that's causing the delay, it's the converters - regardless of how fast they are, they still have some latency...
Old 20th January 2007
  #14
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Matthew Murray's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Instead of making this another standard "for" or "against" thread, why don't all you cats who jumped ship tell me which DAW you switched to on a mac, and why.

Looks like cubase is the best option for auto delay compensation. Thoughts?

But let's ditch the lame for or against. This issue matters to some of us, so I don't want to turn this into another pointless argument. If Apple writes me, that might change something. Like henchman says, fat chance. So I'm switching.
Old 20th January 2007
  #15
I'm having a meeting with 2 Apple people at the NAMM show this weekend. I will bring this to their attention (after I try to get myself a free Iphone that is.... I JOKE! I JOKE!......)

I do know that like a Digidesign, new release stuff is VERY locked down and Apple staff are very likely forbidden to communicate info to ANYONE...(so you may never get that email Meriphew.......)

But I will do my very best to try to get that phone (...I mean show them this post) heh
Old 20th January 2007
  #16
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Matthew Murray's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Jules, I'd love you forever for sharing this with them and requesting some direction. I love Logic but I *will* switch and never look back if somebody doesn't do something. Others have done so already, others will follow, blah blah.

But hey, "Meriphew" ... is that how the English pronounce my name or something?
Old 20th January 2007
  #17
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Here is an unfortunate truth about Apple:

First let me say that I own and love the Mac Book Pro and while my main studio DAW is a big PC, I love Macs and use them all the time. The problem that no one wants to see about Apple is that they are no longer primarily a computer maker. Sure, they make them. And yeah, there're awesome. But they do not rely on computer sales to flourish. In fact, they continue to loose market share. Around here and some of the more lively graphic artist forums, they are the balls. But in th real world, PCs are too ingrained in business applications to ever give up the top spot - even a piece of it. Luckily for Apple and most notably, Mr Jobs, apple has been able to produce these slick little gadgets that everyone seems to need. Apple has relied on the ipod and rode those sales dollars to where they are now. They are cool, getting cheaper and EVERYBODY has one. With out the ipod, Apple would have gone away by now - or at least be a tiny fraction of what they are now. But they continue to grow DESPITE their computer sales. If you really look at it, with the effect the ipod has had to push the MP3 medium forward, Apple has done more to degrade professional audio than to improve it.

Enter the iphone. They have projected sales of 1 million of these cool looking phones made of GLASS. They have restricted sales of these units by only offering service through Cingular, they cost $500-600 and did I mention, they are MADE OF GLASS.

Maybe I'm off here, but to me... Apple will always build computers and build them well. But they've always been able to identify which market segment they want to play in and do well in those segments. They had a grand-slam homerun with the ipod. Until things change, computer sales will plug along but not make anyone rich(despite their margins) and the iphone will show underwhelming revenues. Logic, I'm guessing, will not be an area that they identify as a high growth segment that they have thrived in in the past.

Just my .02
Old 20th January 2007
  #18
Gear Addict
 
bit mangler's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Murray View Post
Henchman, I think your argument only works if you view apple as one big team of morons doing everything under the same giant roof.

Apple has divisions, and in reality something tells me that the people on the Logic Pro team didn't have much to do with the iPhone.

.
I think Hench is right.Apple is in the business of making money and in the grand scheme of things I dont think Logic is even in the radar.I think improving FCP would be higher up in their priority list.That is why I like these products to be in the hands of smaller companies where a particular product is their bread and butter and their ass is always on fire to improve.
Old 20th January 2007
  #19
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Matthew Murray's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
While I understand the motivation for thinking that way, I just can't see it being the case. The guys working on Logic are experts with Logic. What else would apple have them do? They'll all be on salary and are employed permanently ... and lord knows they can't be spending those full time days on making decimal-point update revisions.

Something has to be cooking. That's not even a question.

What IS a question is WHEN, and whether or not it addresses these major issues. If they don't tell the user base NOW, they lose me, and most likely others.

I understand that being tightlipped about a new iMac or iPhone can have it's advantages, but apple can't use the same strategy when dealing with a user base like that of Logic's. We don't put up with preschool BS like that. We need to know what's what, because these features really make a difference in what we can accomplish for OUR clients.
Old 20th January 2007
  #20
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules View Post
(after I try to get myself a free Iphone that is.... I JOKE! I JOKE!......)
They're still developing the iJoke arent they? heh
Old 20th January 2007
  #21
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Murray View Post
While I understand the motivation for thinking that way, I just can't see it being the case. The guys working on Logic are experts with Logic. What else would apple have them do?
Your view is too narrow.
That's like thinkinga certain audio engineer can only record drums.

These guys are programmers.
They happen to have an expertise in programmign a specific audio app.
That expertise can eb utilised in muerouse ways for FCP, Garagbeand audio apps for the Iphone, Apple computers etc.
Old 20th January 2007
  #22
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Matthew Murray's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
I suppose I'm not arguing with you Henchman, I'm simply expressing this: If that's the case and Apple would rather put their logic engineers (some who came from the eMagic deal) onto Final Cut Pro upgrades rather than developing solutions to major Logic Pro problems, that's the last straw.

The problem is, that's all guesswork. I wanted to know for sure, but to know for sure with those tight-lipped cats over in Cupertino is probably asking for too much.

I think I'm moving to Cubase 4. I'm a bit scared about the switch, but not as frightened as I would be by sticking around and dicking with useless solutions like the "latency fixer" plugin which helps nothing.

Apple, if you're listening (yeah right), you better explain yourselves soon. I'm cutting my week deadline in half based soley on the fact that I'm angrier today about this than I was yesterday.

Damn that's angry.
Old 20th January 2007
  #23
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Psyko/Acoustics's Avatar
 

Hey Matthew,

I guarantee that you will experience new and different problems in your workflow if move to Cubendo. I have my share of gripes inside Cubase SX3, and I recently bugged a Steinberg rep while attending Club Cubase about when they'll remedy them (inside Cubase4) and thus motivate me to upgrade. He has no idea.

What are my major gripes? Inflexible routing within the mixer, no native sidechaining within the VST format.
I wish it had a sample trigger plugin/function to replace drums with too.

With all the above said I still feel Steinberg has great product... So does Apple. I think we will both have to sit and wait for our needs to be addressed.

Oh well. Good luck with whatever you choose.
Old 20th January 2007
  #24
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Matthew Murray's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Psyko, I think it's all about balance.
While the gripes you list are certainly a downer, for me it doesn't compare with the trouble I face whenever i want to record the output of an outboard processor. That to me should be a PRIMARY feature and it just isn't there.

I realize it's going to be tough switching to a new program with a new set of problems ... but this just feels insurmountable. There isn't even a reasonable third party solution! So what do I do?
Old 20th January 2007
  #25
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Do yourself a favor. Go to Samplitude and avoid all the trouble.
Old 20th January 2007
  #26
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Matthew Murray's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Samplitude looks nice, but despite my previous threats I doubt I could make the jump from mac to PC right now (though it would serve apple right) ... too many other things I do rely on the mac.
Old 20th January 2007
  #27
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Murray View Post


I think I'm moving to Cubase 4. I'm a bit scared about the switch, but not as frightened as I would be by sticking around and dicking with useless solutions like the "latency fixer" plugin which helps nothing.

Whatever you move to, download the demo first.
Old 20th January 2007
  #28
Gear addict
 
Psyko/Acoustics's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by redddog View Post
Do yourself a favor. Go to Samplitude and avoid all the trouble.
Matthew would have to switch operating systems for that change, right? Then his Apogee Symphony stuff wouldn't work cuz it's OSX only.

Does Samp have a way to incorporate external hardware?

Sorry, were you addressing Matthew or myself?

Matt: I guess the "crossgrade" wouldn't be terrifically expensive. I wonder if you'll be able to hold onto Logic while you switch...
Old 20th January 2007
  #29
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Matthew Murray's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
Whatever you move to, download the demo first.
And that's another frustrating bit. There's no demo for Cubase 4. There's no demo for Digital performer.

There's a demo for ableton Live 6 but I've already ruled it out (it's pretty bad!)

Anyone have Cubase 4 running in calgary and want to show me around?
Old 20th January 2007
  #30
Gear addict
 
Psyko/Acoustics's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Murray View Post
And that's another frustrating bit. There's no demo for Cubase 4. There's no demo for Digital performer.

There's a demo for ableton Live 6 but I've already ruled it out (it's pretty bad!)

Anyone have Cubase 4 running in calgary and want to show me around?
Can you talk to someone at a music tech store?
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