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The very big VISTA thread...
Old 7th February 2007
  #61
Quote:
Windows Vista is not even fully out the door, but Redmond is already laying the groundwork for its first service pack release of bug fixes and other enhancements for the operating system.
very cool. so they have the ServicePAcks as milestones.

I appreciate this.

cheers
Old 8th February 2007
  #62
Here for the gear
 

A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection

Somebody above mentioned this article, here is the link:

A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...ista_cost.html

It is a long read, and may be a little over the heads of the public, so here's my summary:

- You can't play "protected" content (for example, an SACD, HD video, or DRM'd media file) through untrusted output interfaces. These interfaces include S/PDIF and all analog outputs (even your analog RGB video output will have to be dropped in the future if they want to provide total security). There don't seem to be any monitors on the market yet that Vista trusts enough to send HD content to.

- Vista degrades the quality of protected audio/visual content.

- Because Vista checks every piece of hardware for authenticity, hardware manufacturers are forced to keep details of their internals secret to prevent "spoofing" the operating system into believing that one piece of (untrusted) hardware is another piece of (trusted) hardware. This means that open source device drivers are practically impossible to write, and unified driver architectures (one driver for multiple flavors of hardware device, much like NVidia's ForceWare and ATI's Catalyst) will no longer be usable.

- Microsoft can revoke the signature of any hardware device remotely at any time. This means if someone breaks the protection on a device, Microsoft can disable that device globally, causing the operating system to refuse to recognize it until a fixed driver can be distributed.

- Hardware and software drivers are required to have "tilt bits" that trip if anything strange happens (momentary power fluctuation, etc). These are glitches that occur naturally, and most hardware is designed to deal with them and continue operating normally. If a tilt bit is flipped, Vista will reset the subsystem, resulting in momentary downtime. Obviously this is not good for critical, time-sensitive applications.

- All communications flows in the video and sound system are encrypted. Basically your computer will encrypt the messages it's sending to itself to prevent you from stealing DRM'd content. Encryption is not a trivial task for your CPU, and performance suffers as a result.

- All of the above "features" make hardware more expensive to develop, and the cost is passed on to the consumer. Even if you don't use Vista, you will pay more for a Vista-secured hardware device.

If I have over-generalized or gotten anything wrong in my summary, please correct me.

Right now, the only reason I see to switch to Vista is the Aero user interface. I don't think that's enough benefit to outweigh having an operating system that decides whether or not I can view the media on my own hard drive.
Old 8th February 2007
  #63
Old 8th February 2007
  #64
Here for the gear
 

The really backwards thing is that Vista protects media better than it protects any other data. For example, a fairly common way to steal sensitive data is to overload a system's memory, causing it to "page" certain parts of memory to the hard disk temporarily while it works on something else. While on the hard disk, a malicious application can read the data (while in memory, it can be protected by the operating system). Any time you're playing a DRM'd video or audio file, if the file in memory needs to be paged to the disk, it's encrypted. However, if you're viewing sensitive information (let's say you're viewing banking information from a secure web site), the data is not encrypted and can be stolen. I think it's kind of amusing that they have the technology to protect you from hackers, but instead they use it to protect copyright owners (who are still making piles of cash despite piracy).
Old 9th February 2007
  #65
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GravityRobert's Avatar
 

I have a copy of vista and chose NOT to use it. From what I heard, its more like an expensive skin rather than the groundbreaking changes they announced years ago. I'll stick to XP for games and save moneys for a MAC
Old 9th February 2007
  #66
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idylldon's Avatar
 

A quick install of Vista:

http://comedy.videosift.com/video/Op...a-in-2-minutes

Cheers,
--
Don
Old 9th February 2007
  #67
theother
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by GravityRobert View Post
I have a copy of vista and chose NOT to use it. From what I heard, its more like an expensive skin rather than the groundbreaking changes they announced years ago. I'll stick to XP for games and save moneys for a MAC
Amen.
Old 9th February 2007
  #68
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Ravian's Avatar
 

Cool

i got a new pc that came with vista. looked at it for 5 min. and put XP on the drive.

i saw that vista was calculating ratings of my PC, my PC came out 3,3
so when you buy software there is a rating on the box if your pc is up 2 the task.
mmmmhh
Old 11th February 2007
  #69
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Microsoft's Vista had major Mac envy, company emails reveal

Interesting news item...

http://www.itnews.com.au/newsstory.aspx?CIaNID=45037
Old 11th February 2007
  #70
haha:D

yeah nice read.

you know, the PC-commuity has to live with the strength and weaknesses of VISTA in the next few years.. we can complain all day and night about it or try to live with it.

OSx has also some disadvanteges..

because of the "robbery":

Steve Jobs in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph_of_the_Nerds
"The only problem with Microsoft is they just have no taste. They have absolutely no taste. And I don't mean that in a small way, I mean that in a big way, in the sense that they don't think of original ideas, and they don't bring much culture into their products.".

that nails it.

cheers
Old 12th February 2007
  #71
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djui5's Avatar
 

http://www.newscientist.com/backpage...mg19325882.500

under "Help, It works!"


*edit* probably not Vista related, but funny none the less.
Old 13th February 2007
  #72
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delasoul's Avatar
 

i have a copy of windows vista.. actually.. i have 10 licenses for vista. im not goin to install it until protools will work on it. or maybe i will just not upgrade and wait for xp service pack 3 to come out.. i thought it was supposed to come out same day as vista....

but thats rediculous because it would have taken away from the fire of vista.. so maybe in a couple of months when the hype is all gone.
Old 13th February 2007
  #73
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Total system control of hardware and drivers seems like the Apple business model of 15 years ago. A benefit may be that it'll make a pc more stable overall, but it's guaranteed to piss people off. Too bad the gullible general public being talked into this crap don't know the difference. When the grandkids download cracks, etc. onto grandma's computer over the summer while on vacation at least "the geek squad" will be happy with the fortune they will make.
Old 15th February 2007
  #74
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slaves666's Avatar
I checked out Vista today, my GF wants a new laptop.....on 1st look, it is very similar to XP.....let's hope that when all the applications get re-written for it, they don't drop XP support too soon.
Old 15th February 2007
  #75
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Henchman's Avatar
I've got it on a dualboot now.
I like it, and am lookign forward to the day when all the apps are 64bit, to take advantage of the 64 bit chip in my laptop.
Old 8th March 2007
  #76
Gear Head
 

Finally a thread I have to comment on!

I'm a network/systems admin who started out as a musician. I'm working in a consulting firm and have been using vista for about 10 months now, in various stages. However, I haven't been running it on my main computer, my notebook (Intel Core duo - therefore, 32 bit only,) until about 3 weeks ago - and now I'm running Vista Ultimate as a non-privileged user. Here are my observations:


1. I turned off all the eye candy. This makes it much faster. I'm sorry, but window transparency has been around for at least 5-6 years... it was pretty cool for about 5 minutes, I felt. Anyway, vista is reasonably fast, now, but again, I have 2GB of RAM.

2. The security issue is annoying... particularly when setting up all your apps. You have to enter administrator credentials for privileged operations. That's actually a good thing... however - I wish they'd followed the unix sudo model. Anyone who has used sudo knows that sudo requires you to enter your password in a similar fashion, but grants you a few minutes where you can use sudo without your password after entering your
password once. It's handy for a string of repeated operations.

In Vista, you have to enter the admin credentials each time you perform a privileged operation. So, you might have to do it ten times in two minutes if you're performing several privileged operations.

Another thing is that certain operations seem to be completely prohibited. For instance, I needed to modify a text file that is considered a system file. I wasn't allowed to save my changes to the file as administrator, however, I could save my changes to another text file elsewhere and copy the new file over the system file. I'm not sure how that will help security... unless spyware writers aren't bright enough to copy the file.

I imagine that, just like xp, most users will be running with administrative privileges.

3. Audio applications: I don't have a ton of applications, but here goes:

a. Pro Tools LE: nope. Doesn't work. You can trick it into installing, but it won't work. It won't uninstall, either.

b. Tracktion: installs fine... I have an Onyx 1620 with the firewire card, and I can't get the firewire driver to work correctly. Seeing as how Mackie hasn't released a new driver since the 1.0 release, I'm not surprised. Anyway, Tracktion seems to work.

c. opensource: Audacity - seems to work okay.

d. reaper: seems to work okay, but I haven't thoroughly tested it.

e. mp3s: they seem to play correctly... at least the ones I ripped myself.

4. Hardware:

This is the most annoying thing. I have a notebook with expresscard only (for those who don't know about this, it's essentially the successor to cardbus... along the lines of pci express. It allows up to 250MBs.) Anyway, I had to buy a gigabit card a while back. At that time, only a couple of companies made expresscard network cards. I bought a linksys. They had no driver at first, but I just read this:

If your Linksys product does not appear on any of these three lists, there is no plan to support the product with Windows Vista.

Very annoying. The worst part is that vista attempts to load the xp driver, and this crashes vista. You'd think that Cisco could afford to write drivers for all their mainstream products. I'm not going to use a usb gigabit adapter, as the maximum throughput of usb2 is less than half of gigabit.

I'm annoyed by hardware vendors as Vista was available to businesses sometime in November, if I remember correctly.

5. miscellaneous other applications:

a. vmware workstation: claims to be unsupported, but seems to work, more or less. There is a long start up time the first time, but it does work.

b. firefox: it was kind of broken until the 2.0.0.2 release came out.

c. wireless networking: it's kind of a pain to manipulate networking on vista, imho. However, wireless does seem to work... sort of. I have run into strange problems getting addresses from certain dhcp servers. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to diagnose the problems.


things I like about Vista

1. I like the increased security. I find the repeated privilege credentials request to be very annoying and wish that they'd have a grace period after entering the credentials once (a la sudo) but oh well. I installed vista to get a head start on client issues, and I've basically advised people to stay away. Anyway, if you just use office and a web browser as a non administrator user, vista will be safer.

2. Vista seems to have less application crashes than xp. I'm not sure why, but that seems to be true. Aside from the network card crashing it, it hasn't crashed fully. XP doesn't crash a lot, but applications do crash more frequently in it.

3. Vista allows you to do fast user switching, even when you are on a domain. This might not make sense for those who run XP in a workgroup, but in domain mode, you had to log out to switch to another user. That being said, I sometimes run another user logon because I need an admin user to do certain things. I don't want to run an administrative user at the same time and I only do so when I have to install several things at the same time.

that's pretty much it. Aero does nothing for me. Then again, the windows XP "Fisher Price" desktop theme (on by default) only annoyed me and slowed down the computer. I always turned it off, too, and it saved some resources and made XP faster... especially on slower machines.

Then again, MS has managed to shove another OS down our throat. Not everyone has switched, but it's only a matter of time. My preferred operating system is FreeBSD, but there is limited support for many applications, including audio.

I'm curious to see how longhorn (the server version of windows that is coming in a few months) will compare to windows 2003, but I suspect they'll rock the boat a little less.

I'm not a big of a fan of OS X as other here as I have to deal with it from an administrator's perspective. Some of our clients are attempting to develop for the mac and want to treat OS X as a unix drop in replacement. It's definitely not that. I find the permissions problems you sometimes get on OS X to be ridiculous. I've found that upgrading OS X from 10.4.6 to 10.4.7 or 10.4.8 will break application builds. I've had such bad experiences with OS X server that I would never recommend it to anyone I liked.

However, I will say apple does a good job with desktop users. They won't rock the boat for people who only use desktop applications and who don't need to integrate with a mixture of unix/linux machines, windows machines, and mac machines. MS managed to annoy everyone with Vista.

Sorry for the long post... I'm sure some will disagree. Anyway, I'd advise you guys to stay away from Vista for a while. Check it again in a year or two.
Old 8th March 2007
  #77
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composer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by EMPORIO View Post
Any real reports no hype or rumors or heard from this guy but actual experience ? It's been out for a while and its hard to believe in a forum this wide no one has picked it up yet and tried to install some audio applications or try to see if any of the zip and rar programs work. It seems it's not very backwards compatiable from what I read but I would like to hear some real experiences.

Anyone know how long we will have to wait till we have a functional window's vista that will work with our programs, or do you think we will have to wait till the software companies, decide to start making their programs for a vista friendly formatte.
I started another thread on this but according to several DIFFERENT PC guys at FRYS people are returning desktops and laptops with VISTA in droves due to incompatibility.
Old 8th March 2007
  #78
Gear Head
 

Ah, I forgot some of the simple stuff: 7zip works well in vista, and it's free:

http://www.7-zip.org/

7 zip does unpack rars, too - but not as well as winrar.


OpenOffice works

Nero 7 (with the upgrade patches) works

I have a Turtle beach usb sound card device with lightpipe ins and outs that I use. The Turtle beach drivers don't work, but vista uses a generic usb audio driver, and that seems to work fine (it worked with audacity, at least.)

acrobat reader 8 seems to work

for those who use unix machines on a regular basis:

cygwin sort of works (the x server seems to work)

putty works

winscp works

tera term works (though the new version of putty seems to remove the need for it.)

And as I said early, vmware workstation seems to work. I haven't tried vmware server, but the vmware server console seems to work. It would be interesting to attempt to record in an XP vm using the the usb pass through. I doubt it would work, though.
Old 8th March 2007
  #79
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
I've got it on a dualboot now.
I like it, and am lookign forward to the day when all the apps are 64bit, to take advantage of the 64 bit chip in my laptop.
It should be interesting. Not ever app will be improved by 64bit support... but certainly databases and the like. Having a much larger capacity for RAM should be helpful. It has certainly taken a long time. I remember that the DEC Alpha processor was 64bit (as was the os) back in the early 90's. It has taken the PC world a long time to reach the 64bit world. Maybe it's because of Intel working on the Itanium... it certainly allowed AMD to get the jump on them.
Old 8th March 2007
  #80
Quote:
And as I said early, vmware workstation seems to work. I haven't tried vmware server, but the vmware server console seems to work.
very cool man! I am not interested with recording trough it, but that is good news.

cheers
Old 8th March 2007
  #81
Gear Head
 

Cool sound apps

I played with sonar, with no problems. M-Audio's 1010 driver worked fine in Sonar, although not in Windows itself as a driver for the OS, if that makes any sense.
Old 10th March 2007
  #82
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composer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by miklospower View Post
The fact that Windows Vista requires so much RAM just to get up and running is absolutely great because Microsoft holds 93% of the market (down 2% to Mac OSX according to recent reports) and that means every PC user out there is going to be stocking up on more and more RAM for their new Vista compliant machines.

Why is this great? Because is means that RAM will get cheaper for Mac users.
Miklos.
I think Apple doubled its market share and from what I read, RAM pricing is going UP UP UP...(frown).
Old 10th March 2007
  #83
Gear Head
 

they're still blaming that RAM factory fire back in the 90's for RAM shortages.

Old 15th March 2007
  #84
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by composer View Post
I think Apple doubled its market share and from what I read, RAM pricing is going UP UP UP...(frown).
What, they went form 2% to 4%?
WOW.
Old 15th March 2007
  #85
Quote:
What, they went form 2% to 4%?
WOW.
the super sensitive moderator is back from preventing Hechman, starting another mac vs. pc thread. tutt tutt

Old 9th April 2007
  #86
Here for the gear
 

I picked it up over the weekend, will be installing it this week, and will report back on how it performs
Old 9th April 2007
  #87
Vista activation is history.. hehheh

it's actually gone since 5 weeks.. but I had to aprove it..

cheers
Old 10th April 2007
  #88
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bobx's Avatar
just wanted to make a quick comment here. i just installed a copy of vista ultimate on my little brother's computer as an "upgrade" for him (i really just wanted to use it as a test system for my next upgrade).

anyway, he's been using my m-audio firewire solo as a soundcard so i went ahead and installed my copy of nuendo just to see how it runs. i opened up some project files i did on my XP system and it ran flawlessly. i only messed around for about an hour, but it was pretty much a seemless transition for me.

i plan on building a core 2 duo (e6600) system within the next month and i do plan on a smooth transition to vista.
Old 18th April 2007
  #89
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composer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobxhopefield View Post
just wanted to make a quick comment here. i just installed a copy of vista ultimate on my little brother's computer as an "upgrade" for him (i really just wanted to use it as a test system for my next upgrade).

anyway, he's been using my m-audio firewire solo as a soundcard so i went ahead and installed my copy of nuendo just to see how it runs. i opened up some project files i did on my XP system and it ran flawlessly. i only messed around for about an hour, but it was pretty much a seemless transition for me.

i plan on building a core 2 duo (e6600) system within the next month and i do plan on a smooth transition to vista.
No Drivers for a lot of hardware though and software. Mackie has no vista support to date.

64 bit looks like no advantage except maybe memory, at least for the time being.

Performance Tests | Vista Watch | Rain Recording (UK)

EDIT/

FWIW. I installed it for one day, most apps did not work, from DAW to flight sims. And as mentioned not a lot of drivers to date.
I also managed to get a BSOD, imagine that. And boot up time is terrible compared to XP. A lonnnnnnnnnng time, vs a MAC a full days work. LOL.
Zonelabs (one of the best that keeps programs from phoning home) also not compatible with Vista.
Old 19th April 2007
  #90
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joris de man's Avatar
64 bit support is actually a major reason for me to upgrade, next to reports that due to improved irq/driver handling more effective cpu useage is possible.

64 bit because it will finally mean being rescued from the dreaded 2-3 gig memory limit that applications have; esp. interesting for heavy samplelibrary users like myself.

The new driver handling stuff is good because it will hopefully mean I'll be able to get to 90% cpu useage instead of 70 before I get the dreaded snap-crackle-pop.

Other than that, as long as it does what it is supposed to, I'm not too fussed.
Aero is a gimick that can thankfully be easily turned off, the new administrator stuff sounds a bit mac os X'ey to me (having to give adminstrator rights to install, say, a mousedriver), and all the mediaplayer stuff..well, it's usually the first thing I deinstall on any windows machine anyway.

Compatibillity issues are a common thing with any new release of an OS..whether it's a PC or a Mac..it is to be expected. Give it a few months (and a service pack or 2), and all will be well...

Joris
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