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MIDI nodes for hihat in Superior Drummer to only apply when closed Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 18th October 2015
  #1
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JohnRick's Avatar
MIDI nodes for hihat in Superior Drummer to only apply when closed

As per title.

Got my backup DM10X mesh today (normally using my Yamaha DTX900). Been reading the manual, made all the adjustments before I will be transporting it to a different facility later on. I had already setup a MIDI node preset for triggering the hihat tip+edge articulation based on velocity range mapping (since DM10 only has 1-zone hats).

This obviously works, but the thing I should have known is that it will disable CC4, or rather the ability to make open sounds with the hats when moving the pedal since that node doesn't calculate changes in continous controller messages. It keeps that node intact all the time so I only play tip/edge-sounds. What I want to do is to keep that MIDI node in Superior Drummer for when the pedal is closed (high CC4-value) ONLY, and as soon as it opens just be free from that node and go open.

So simply put I want to:
Utilize the velocity range confined-MIDI node created in SDX for tip/edge when fully closed, but have that very same node deactivated as soon as the hihatpedal sends a CC4-message for opening the hats. Thus tip/edge when closed (or CC-value above a certain treshold), nodeless and open every other time. Some form of node within a node, or CC4 remapping to notes would be to prefer.

No response in either Alesis or Toontrack forums. Don't think this will be any different I'm afraid.
Old 18th October 2015
  #2
Did you read this thread?

Guide: How to Setup Hi-Hat in Superior Drummer 2

Here's the general search pages I used to find the 1st thread link above...

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/sear...5554830&pp=100
Old 18th October 2015
  #3
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JohnRick's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Fogal View Post
Did you read this thread?

Guide: How to Setup Hi-Hat in Superior Drummer 2

Here's the general search pages I used to find the 1st thread link above...

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/sear...5554830&pp=100

Thanks Steve. I have now read through the article posted in the link above, and nowhere does it touch what I want to do. Again - my aim is to have a programmed MIDI node to be activated (or deactivated) by the CC4 input over a certain treshold. Since CC messages are different from a MIDI note (not node) I'm not sure this is doable.

1) Hihat pad is single zone (The Alesis. My Yamaha 900 has all the zones needed so that's the reason). I have programmed a node with edge+tip articulations to be activated at certain velocities (1-85 & 85-127). So far so good.

2) Problem is that if mapping that single surface to the MIDI note which is tied to the created MIDI node, the CC messages will be out the window and I will have tip/edge all through the CC spectrum. IOW - trying to emulate a 2-zoned hihat on a 1-zone surface, but doing it via SDX's MIDI nodes. Can't get them both apparently. Either I get tip/edge, but will loose CC, or have all the functionality, but loose out on my velocity range-node for tip/edge.

Last edited by JohnRick; 18th October 2015 at 11:56 PM..
Old 19th October 2015
  #4
Sounds complicated at 1st John, but it may be a comprehension thing on my part here, so I'm not sure myself, very interesting though...

Let me get this straight (and this may make it more clear for others who may be of more help). I'm unclear of the term 'midi node' but if I understand correctly, you want 2 different modes of operation (or nodes?), in that with the 1st mode/node allows triggering all the 'open sounds' ... and the 2nd mode/node allows triggering of all 'closed sounds'. And your desire is to be able to switch between these 2 modes/nodes, by way of your Hi-Hat pedal, sending the command of whether it's open or closed to Superior. Right?

What doesn't make the 'best' sense (to me anyway), is that you're using a single zone trigger pad, which is very common for Hat-Hat pads. With my Yamaha DTXpress trigger modules, and especially true for my original DTXpress 1 kit & module, it came with a single trigger pad and I had very limited levels of open/closed. I understand, other set ups are capable of sending continuous or variable messages to allow for triggering more in between sounds (more? some? all?), mine isn't.
Currently, I'm using 4 DTXpress III trigger modules, and utilizing 2 dual trigger zone pads for my Hat's. I do this by using a DIY stereo 'Y' splitter/patch cord from my Hi-Hat pedal/controller, into 2 of my modules. I then programmed these 2 modules to correspond with Superiors opend/closed Hi-Hat sounds. Depending on which dual trigger pad I'm hitting, I have 'much more available' sounds to trigger...though but not all of them (YET).
This is where I responded in that other thread by saying...
Quote:
An idea for solution I had was to split the controller to all 4 of my DTXpress III modules, and build a DIY custom 8 trigger zone so that I could play all available sounds of superior's hats....
So, by building myself something that does not actually exist, I'll be able to have a custom 8 zone trigger pad, and the pads multiple triggers will be divided and sent to all 4 of my trigger modules, which I will then program them for the midi NOTES needed. The design, all 8 triggers will be laid out in concentric rings. These concentric rings will correspond, and span from the most outer edge, the in between stages to bell. Depending on whether I have my Hi-Hat foot controller open, closed etc, I should have access to all available Hi-Hat sounds within Superior. It should operate/respond just like a real hi-Hat.
Note that, in order to NOT redundantly trigger multiple or same sounds in all 4 modules simultaneously (sounds unnaturally loud when that happens), but only ONE module - such as when closing the hats with the pedal, or a hard foot splash triggering etc - as I now do with my 2 modules, I'll program a void/null midi note number (basically not triggering any sounds in Superior at all from 3 of the other modules). I do this will 2 modules now, I can set it up this up in all 4.

Note; with my current & future Hi-Hat set up, the 'velocity of my strikes' themselves do not trigger certain different individual degree's of in between Hi-Hat sounds, they only trigger various velocities as intended.

With the above, maybe it's ME that is not making the 'best sense' of things.

Last edited by Steve Fogal; 19th October 2015 at 03:57 PM..
Old 19th October 2015
  #5
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JohnRick's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Fogal View Post
Sounds complicated at 1st John, but it may be a comprehension thing on my part here, so I'm not sure myself, very interesting though...

Let me get this straight (and this may make it more clear for others who may be of more help). I'm unclear of the term 'midi node' but if I understand correctly, you want 2 different modes of operation (or nodes?), in that with the 1st mode/node allows triggering all the 'open sounds' ... and the 2nd mode/node allows triggering of all 'closed sounds'. And your desire is to be able to switch between these 2 modes/nodes, by way of your Hi-Hat pedal, sending the command of whether it's open or closed to Superior. Right?

What doesn't make the 'best' sense (to me anyway), is that you're using a single zone trigger pad, which is very common for Hat-Hat pads. With my Yamaha DTXpress trigger modules, and especially true for my original DTXpress 1 kit & module, it came with a single trigger pad and I had very limited levels of open/closed. I understand, other set ups are capable of sending continuous or variable messages to allow for triggering more in between sounds (more? some? all?), mine isn't.
Currently, I'm using 4 DTXpress III trigger modules, and utilizing 2 dual trigger zone pads for my Hat's. I do this by using a DIY stereo 'Y' splitter/patch cord from my Hi-Hat pedal/controller, into 2 of my modules. I then programmed these 2 modules to correspond with Superiors opend/closed Hi-Hat sounds. Depending on which dual trigger pad I'm hitting, I have 'much more available' sounds to trigger...though but not all of them (YET).
This is where I responded in that other thread by saying...

So, by building myself something that does not actually exist, I'll be able to have a custom 8 zone trigger pad, and the pads multiple triggers will be divided and sent to all 4 of my trigger modules, which I will then program them for the midi NOTES needed. The design, all 8 triggers will be laid out in concentric rings. These concentric rings will correspond, and span from the most outer edge, the in between stages to bell. Depending on whether I have my Hi-Hat foot controller open, closed etc, I should have access to all available Hi-Hat sounds within Superior. It should operate/respond just like a real hi-Hat.
Note that, in order to NOT redundantly trigger multiple or same sounds in all 4 modules simultaneously (sounds unnaturally loud when that happens), but only ONE module - such as when closing the hats with the pedal, or a hard foot splash triggering etc - as I now do with my 2 modules, I'll program a void/null midi note number (basically not triggering any sounds in Superior at all from 3 of the other modules). I do this will 2 modules now, I can set it up this up in all 4.

Note; with my current & future Hi-Hat set up, the 'velocity of my strikes' themselves do not trigger certain different individual degree's of in between Hi-Hat sounds, they only trigger various velocities as intended.

With the above, maybe it's ME that is not making the 'best sense' of things.
Thanks for input Steve. What I want to do is not complicated in theory, but in practice since confined to be done in SD alone. The fact that this kit has a single zone hihat-pad is a imperative condition here since the Alesis DM-module for hat input only can read a single zone (even though the rest are stereo inputs). There are more about this on DMdrummer-forum, but for the sake of this discussion, the only viable/possible option for this kit is to use a single zone pad as hihat. As stated I have my Yamaha DTX900 with all the zones I need. This 2nd kit is another story.

Since the pad is a single zone I created a midi node in SD that is based on velocity. Over, say 80, the pad will trigger an closed edge sound, instead of a closed tip sound. But since pad is a single zone I can only assign one midi note to that pad. In other words - the midi node as such works flawlessly - but then I will loose response to CC values triggering open sounds, since I have already assigned that specific pad note to trigger the node (not the note). As soon as I hit the pad that "must" be assigned to that node in order to have tip/edge functionality it will only follow that node and care less about incoming CC messages.

There is no trouble at all setting up the hat sounds in SD with closed/open sounds and pedal works smoothly. But then I will not have tip/edge functionality. Again - since the single zone pad is assigned to trigger that midi node, I would like to create another node, or condition that specific tip/edge-node to deactivate when CC message reaches a certain value so it reverts to regular action.

That way, in a perfect world, I would get tip/edge sounds on a single zone pad with the velocity range-programmed midi node when closed, and also having the full spectrum of openness every other time.
Old 20th October 2015
  #6
Well, never having programmed such 'Nodes' myself in Superior, nor have experience with your module (though I have an Alesis DM Pro module, which I don't find intuitive to use) I can't say. I DO know with my Yamaha DTXpress modules (in at least stand-alone operation) they allow for using one of the trigger pads (say a bar pad) as a way to make (or trigger) certain selected program changes. Not sure if that's the same thing, or if your module has such a function that will help facilitate what you're trying to do (?). I myself haven't made any attempt to utilize my Yamaha drum modules 'program change via trigger function', let alone with any drum software VSTi.

I'm personally not quite sure I'm liking exactly how you want to achieve this, by using velocity as a means to make node changes, but obviously if that works for you, that's what matters. If there could be some other way to make those 'node changes'... maybe a separate physical trigger pad/mechanism? With that in mind, what do you have to do exactly to perform those 'node changes' from one, then back to the other? You may have said already?

You say your hat MUST be single trigger for that modules hat trigger input, but is it possible to use one of your dual trigger inputs of your module, and assign your hat to that? Or... if a 2nd trigger module was added, you'd have so many more options, which maybe you could use ONE dual trigger pad, and split up each trigger between the 2 modules....each module being a 'node' itself. Or would this not work in Superior for some reason?

I realize my own solution is a bit elaborate. My current use of 2 dual trigger pads for my hi-hats (a dual pad to each module, and my hat controller split between the 2 modules) are sitting right next to and slightly over-lapping each other, so my hat hitting options are very close together. It's with my future 4 module split set up that will require a more consolidated option...hence my custom 8 trigger pad design. I could very well use a multi-trigger pad unit instead of my 8 trigger pad design. But it just makes more sense to hit ONE pad, and as I hit it with a stick from tip to bell, I want to program the actual 'midi note numbers' to correspond, just like a real hat.

[IMG]https://Well, never having programmed such 'Nodes' myself in Superior, nor have experience with your module (though I have an Alesis DM Pro module, which I don't find intuitive to use) I can't say. I DO know with my Yamaha DTXpress modules (in at least stand-alone operation) they allow for using one of the trigger pads (say a bar pad) as a way to make (or trigger) certain selected program changes. Not sure if that's the same thing, or if your module has such a function that will help facilitate what you're trying to do (?). I myself haven't made any attempt to utilize my Yamaha drum modules 'program change via trigger function', let alone with any drum software VSTi. I'm personally not quite sure I'm liking exactly how you want to achieve this, by using velocity as a means to make node changes, but obviously if that works for you, that's what matters. If there could be some other way to make those 'node changes'... maybe a separate physical trigger pad/mechanism? With that in mind, what do you have to do exactly to perform those 'node changes' from one, then back to the other? You may have said already? You say your hat MUST be single trigger for that modules hat trigger input, but is it possible to use one of your dual trigger inputs of your module, and assign your hat to that? Or... if a 2nd trigger module was added, you'd have so many more options, which maybe you could use ONE dual trigger pad, and split up each trigger between the 2 modules....each module being a 'node' itself. Or would this not work in Superior for some reason? I realize my own solution is a bit elaborate. My current use of 2 dual trigger pads for my hi-hats (a dual pad to each module, and my hat controller split between the 2 modules) are sitting right next to and slightly over-lapping each other, so my hat hitting options are very close together. It's with my future 4 module split set up that will require a more consolidated option...hence my custom 8 trigger pad design. I could very well use a multi-trigger pad unit instead of my 8 trigger pad design. But it just makes more sense to hit ONE pad, and as I hit it with a stick from tip to bell, I want to program the actual 'midi note numbers' to correspond, just like a real hat.

It was well after I came up with the idea myself, that I saw on-line a company developing trigger pads with multiple concentric triggers, and is more elaborate than my idea ... Synesthesia Announces Mandala 2.0 High-Def Drum and Synthesizer - World's Best Drum Becomes Virtually Any Instrument Imaginable in One Affordable Package

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