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Reaper 5 or Studio ONE 3
Old 24th December 2015
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warnogs View Post
I'v always found the CPU efficiency in Studio One a lot worse than any other DAW. I use Mac so maybe i'm just spoiled by Logic's great CPU usage on a Mac, it beats even Reaper for that. Although i must say Reaper is much better for Windows than Mac and Reaper for Windows is the most efficient out of anything on either Windows or Mac.

I've just found with Studio One that no matter how good my setup is, it seems to not be able to handle as much as other DAW's which is a total shame because i like everything about it. At the start i thought it might be a problem they could iron out but we're on V3 and it seems as bad as ever.

But in terms of workflow and features and the whole mastering part of it, i think it's really excellent.
I'm on a Mac which is where I tried Studio One. I can't really comment on it's efficiency when pushed because I never really did that but it simply worked and very logically. This is the first thing that clearly needs to be achieved. Logic pretty much works despite bugs because the bugs tend not to be total showstoppers. Logic is hugely bloated though. The new UI totally hogs your system compared to both Reaper and Studio One. This is one thing I liked about Reaper. Very small and efficient code without an over the top eye candy UI and also not packed with samples that you may never use.
Old 25th December 2015
  #122
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EvilDragon's Avatar
There are options on how to deal with overlapped notes in Reaper. Have a go at it.
Old 26th December 2015
  #123
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It's no good. Reaper's MIDi is utterly useless for arranging music. All my notes are out of time again as I shift items around. You can't fix this because it would mean endless messing around, quantising notes and items to get them back in time. It also seems like Cockos have tried to wallpaper over the problem so that the placement of the items reads correct. Now it's even harder to see where it has gone wrong. It's half assed Heath Robinson code. Now I can't use my fix by cycling through the item properties to see which items are out.

I've got to shift back to Logic. Sadly, a DAW with really good composing tools doesn't exist now. It ended with Logic 9. That was the last composition tool that was easy to use. Apple have removed some features from Logic that were important for my methods. Logic should be renamed to Garage Band Pro. Pathetic. Cubase probably has all the needed features but it's way to cumbersome to deal with compared to Logic.

It says it all really about the state of music in general when proper tools to actually compose music are all left on the back burner.
Old 26th December 2015
  #124
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Optical Lens's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by efflux View Post
It's no good. Reaper's MIDi is utterly useless for arranging music. All my notes are out of time again as I shift items around. You can't fix this because it would means endless messing around, quantising notes and items to get them back in time. It also seems like Cockos have tried to wallpaper over the problem so that the placement of the items reads correct. Now it's even harder to see where it has gone wrong. It's half assed Heath Robinson code.

I've got to shift back to Logic. Sadly, a DAW with really good composing tools doesn't exist now. It ended with Logic 9. That was the last composition tool that was easy to use. Apple have removed some features from Logic that were important for my methods. Logic should be renamed to Garage Band Pro. Pathetic. Cubase probably has all the needed features but it's way to cumbersome to deal with compared to Logic.

It says it all really about the state of music in general when proper tools to actually compose music are all left on the back burner.
Is this a mac problem only? How do you reproduce? Is this a widespread complaint? If so, it sounds darn serious.
Old 26th December 2015
  #125
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What happens is this. You move items around using snapping but somewhere in Reaper's code if doesn't snap absolutely correctly so your items and notes often end up a tick out. This is obviously quite hard to actually hear but it ends up in a mess because if you are laying out notes via snapping they truncate precisely at the end of a beat. If this shifts by a tick you get overlaps and tiny cut notes if you slice items etc. Then if an item is slightly out and you loop it, it drifts way out of time. It also seems to relate to MIDI import problems because Reaper seems to read note ends after another note begins and it truncates the next note to one tick. I can't import my Logic MIDI without this happening. My Logic MIDI imported to Studio One perfectly.

I've obviously searched the net and I've found numerous examples of people ending up in difficulties with this problem. Reaper is clearly unfixable for this issue meaning it can never ever compete with Logic or Cubase.
Old 26th December 2015
  #126
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The sad part is that I much prefer the piano roll in Reaper. I have also created a toolbar so I can lay in chords with one click, lots of guitar chord voicings etc. This is really cool. You can also set up the lanes to be specific notes for drums etc and name them. The Logic "Step Editor" is beyond a joke compared to this simple method in Reaper. It's not that you can't fix the items and notes in Reaper and get them in time again but this fixing workaround just destroys your workflow.
Old 26th December 2015
  #127
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My current project in Reaper is now broken to such a degree that it will take hours to clean up and Cockos have screwed it up much worse in v5 because they've tried to hide the problem from the user making it impossible to use the fix I was using before because the only way I can see what is wrong is by zooming in on the items and notes. This will be last project I start in Reaper. From now on I'll be using Logic. Cockos have wasted much more of my time than even Apple have with the problems in Logic which I thought were bad enough but the bugs are generally not critical.
Old 26th December 2015
  #128
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The only fix now worth doing is to glue every item together in the track and quantise the notes. That brings them back into line but the the whole point of items is to be able to move them around so now you have to re-slice it but if you start moving them around again, it gets messed up again. Much worse now in Reaper 5 because before, you could at least be careful and see that you were in fact moving a tick out. Cockos have now hidden this so you don't know until it's a total mess.

I've been on the Reaper forum about this but other users don't seem to get it. Yes, a tick out is hard to hear but this is not the point, a tick out and rearranging your items creates a mess of overlapped notes, cut off notes when slicing, out of time loops etc. and it accumulates the more you move around.

It might seem like a minor problem but it isn't. it's a total disaster unless you are just recording MIDI and doing nothing with it in terms of rearranging it. However, if you are working with non quantised MIDI such as it might be if you are actually playing stuff, then you can't fix it if you need to because you don't want to quantise that. It's less likely that you'll have notes ending just before another etc. You wouldn't edit a live performance the same way since slicing up areas snapped exactly to beats etc. isn't going to be possible but just the knowledge that even that is going to shift out if you move it around, isn't appealing.
Old 26th December 2015
  #129
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Been back in Logic. Moved a project over. I can't bear it. The keyboard dancing is just hell. Logic died at v9. I've already ranted about that DAW. This is why I moved to Reaper. As for Logic's performance, it's crap beyond belief in terms of how much it can handle. I don't get these ideas about Logic being so great in this respect. It can't even utilise multicores properly. For trying to run a multi instrument sampler which is what I'm trying to, it's just pathetic. Whoever is in charge of the direction Logic went needs sacking. They had the last version of v9 really nicely sorted before adding all the new complete BS. You need a fast graphics card just to look at Logic. What a joke.

It comes back to what I said before. All these DAWs are abysmal. If one of these companies could just get at least most it right they'd clean up. Studio One is close. Another DAW I tried which is flawless in terms of the code is Tracktion. It's are missing features though. It's Linux as well which is cool. I hope that DAW advances further.
Old 26th December 2015
  #130
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OK. Finally I think I have found a reasonable solution to this problem. I'm off topic here but since I've ranted about this Reaper problem, I better add this.

I didn't realise that you could quantise the items via item processing. So you can quantise all the MIDI notes then also quantise the items to line it all up again.
Old 26th December 2015
  #131
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There is a problem with this. Quantising MIDI items changes the play rate. However, if you deselect quantise item ends and stretch item to fit then it will stretch but not change the play rate. Notes will move but then quantising all the notes shifts them back to exactly correct time.
Old 26th December 2015
  #132
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EvilDragon's Avatar
I don't seem to have any issues with importing MIDI, or snapping MIDI for that matter. See if relative snapping is perhaps enabled.
Old 26th December 2015
  #133
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For anyone interested in Studio One, I see that Presonus has 30% off on it through the end of December.
Old 3rd January 2016
  #134
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Reaper snapping is broken. That's all there is to it. It does not snap accurately, at least sometimes but it only needs to be sometimes and then you whole sequence has to be repaired because of the cumulative inaccuracies. I've been through every angle to this. Nothing fixes the problem.
Old 3rd January 2016
  #135
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Optical Lens's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by efflux View Post
Reaper snapping is broken. That's all there is to it. It does not snap accurately, at least sometimes but it only needs to be sometimes and then you whole sequence has to be repaired because of the cumulative inaccuracies. I've been through every angle to this. Nothing fixes the problem.
Do you have a video of the problem?
Old 3rd January 2016
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simon.billington View Post
Another thing you will want to consider is 3rd party support.

Not all plugins are supported on Reaper, as an example. That doesn't mean you can't run them, it just means if there are issues you have no tech support and no one willing to address the issue, unless it arises in other DAWS.

Fort instance, Wave plugins aren't supported on Reaper, but are supported inStudio One, I'm pretty sure. That doesn't stop people from trying to run them, though. Waves did just announce official support for Fruity Loops, so Im pretty sure Reaper won't be too far off.

That's just one company too, there are plenty more out there, IK Multimedia, Plugin Alliance, Slate Native Instruments, Kush, Sonimus, Nomad Factory, Sonnox, the list goes on. So it may not be a huge concern, but it is something you should take a closer look at though.
I don't think I've found a single plugin that didn't run on Reaper. I'm talking Slate, Waves, Plugin Alliance, Nomad Factory, and a metric ton of various free/trial plugins I've tried over the years.
Old 3rd January 2016
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface View Post
I don't think I've found a single plugin that didn't run on Reaper. I'm talking Slate, Waves, Plugin Alliance, Nomad Factory, and a metric ton of various free/trial plugins I've tried over the years.
While I'm sure that's true, what I was talking about is official support.

So if you ran into any issues, had any installation problems or bugs and so forth, you'd be lucky to receive any help from support... Because some companies such as Waves IS'NT officially supported.

Just thought it was worth pointing out.
Old 3rd January 2016
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Beast View Post
and most of all, I want to know how advanced the "clip" editing ( I don't know the name for it in Studio one) or what is called "object" in Samp and "Item editing" in Reaper.

Thanks you
as far as i know, object editing in samplitude is the most advanced. very powerful once you get into the workflow.
reaper has a similar aspect but it does not have as many features or options as sam although i find it's fine for most purposes.
studio one has an ability to apply fx to sections of a project, but it is very basic in comparison. if you are interested in 'object' based editing i don't think S1 matches to the former DAWs mentioned.
the best thing for me in S1 is the bouncing feature which is very fast and simple plus you can automate parameters in the midi editor which is a bit like clip envelopes in ableton..
overall i would say that S1 is a simplified GUI and therefore workflow can be quite fast. but it is a little crash prone for me. reaper is stable and brilliant all around, but there are to MANY options to search through so it is taking me a long time to get into the smoothest workflow.
samplitude i will use for mastering audio mainly as it's output quality is the best to my ears.
just my opinion : )
Old 4th January 2016
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Optical Lens View Post
Do you have a video of the problem?
It's quite hard to get to the core of what causes this problem but the current state of Reaper 5 seems different. One way to get it to happen is to use regions to move sections around. I can't say for sure yet if simply moving an item causes it now because I haven't specifically seen that happen in Reaper 5. You only notice it when the small out of timeless leads to other problems. You don't see it happening when you edit unless you examine every edit.

Having said all this, I'm still using Reaper as the lesser evil DAW option. In fact I'm moving MIDI projects over despite this problem. At least there are ways to deal with these issues in Reaper so it's still quicker than bad workflows in other apps. The problem initially totally stalled me in my workflow.
Old 4th January 2016
  #140
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This is what you get:



I've been posting about this on the Reaper forum. It's a very serious problem. Reaper's snapping causes this out of time mess which leads to all sorts of issues.

However, it may be that if you have the timeline set to beats this doesn't happen with moving items, at least in the new Reaper. I still have to totally confirm that. I have had it happen while moving regions though.
Old 4th January 2016
  #141
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I've been using Reaper as a VSTi host for years now and have been impressed by how efficient it is... however over the last few weeks I've been trying to switch over to actually using MIDI in Reaper... insane learning curve, very cumbersome interface coming from ProTools. I used to think Digital Performer had a cumbersome interface back when i had to do film stuff using it... Reaper is far, far more difficult to get around in. I would not recommend Reaper for anyone first starting out in MIDI programming. Give me another year to get the hang of it before I can tell if I would recommend it for MIDI, at all.
Old 5th January 2016
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by efflux View Post
Logic died at v9. I've already ranted about that DAW.
When apple bought logic and cut the chord on the windows version I moved over to Samplitude which was so similar at the time I was convinced they were made by the same people. Also Logic's use of system resources were the best out there at the time and Samplitude's were identical.

You might enjoy Samplitude? Things have obviously changed over the years but it's as powerful as you would remember the old Logic being I'm sure. Not neutered down like the current Logic.

OP: I recently bailed on S1 after running it for a couple years. Went back to Samplitude. I'll use Ableton as a pre-production tool and Samplitude in production and post. For mixing Samplitude can't be beat. Something that S1 and Reaper fall short in that dept by comparison imho.
Old 5th January 2016
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Mulcahy View Post
When apple bought logic and cut the chord on the windows version I moved over to Samplitude which was so similar at the time I was convinced they were made by the same people. Also Logic's use of system resources were the best out there at the time and Samplitude's were identical.

You might enjoy Samplitude? Things have obviously changed over the years but it's as powerful as you would remember the old Logic being I'm sure. Not neutered down like the current Logic.

OP: I recently bailed on S1 after running it for a couple years. Went back to Samplitude. I'll use Ableton as a pre-production tool and Samplitude in production and post. For mixing Samplitude can't be beat. Something that S1 and Reaper fall short in that dept by comparison imho.
I got burnt with the Apple buy out. I used Logic on a PC. Bought it before Apple took over and ditched the PC version. Of course then Apple flogged it with all the instruments included instead of separate purchases. Now Logic is cheap. I can't complain at that but it's bloated.

I'm using Reaper despite my ranting about the snapping issue. I think it's been improved in v5. I've kind of worked out now where this flaw was showing up and there is a fix. To be honest, the workflow is Reaper is extremely good once you know what workflow you need because Reaper is flexible that way. I still say Studio One is the other good DAW. I don't know about Samplitude. That's one I don't think I tried or at least it was a very long time ago. What I will say is that it's Magix. I use their extremely underrated Independence sampler. That is an absolutely superb piece of code. You are limited with sample banks but the defaults are fine if you are simply using it to compose with. It works like a dream in Reaper. Never ever had a single issue with it. The effects are brilliant as well. It can stream from the disk and doesn't load into RAM so an SSD is needed but it's brilliant. Blows Kontakt out the water. Pity so few use it though. Is this sampler in Samplitude?
Old 5th January 2016
  #144
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Optical Lens's Avatar
 

Does Samplitude feature the same modular "Environment" as Logic though? Does it have some external hardware FX plugin, like S1's Pipeline?
Old 5th January 2016
  #145
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Logic's environment is a great thing in some circumstances. My problem is that all this flexibility is countered by other bad workflow things. When I'm working in Reaper I find it intuitive (even if there is a lot to learn to begin with) and I don't need to be dancing on the keyboard. Things like the default mouse wheel actions in Reaper seem very logical. An example of Logic is that some of the new key defaults are absurd requiring two keys. This is before we get to the rest. I don't need "Session Drummers" in my DAW when multitudes of bugs exist. Granted, Apple did fix some of the bugs but some are still there. I can't think of any bugs in the last Logic v9 or at least any that gave me a headache. At least in that version you could see several tracks in the piano roll aiding your composing. This function is useless now in Logic X. There was a problem moving to focus on different tracks. Apple's solution was to remove this feature. Reaper is great for seeing ghosts of other tracks in the piano roll. You can edit away and hardly ever touch the keyboard. Put all the functions you need onto the toolbar. This is really great but there is a learning curve.

Last edited by efflux; 5th January 2016 at 05:46 PM..
Old 5th January 2016
  #146
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One thing I will say about Reaper is that like a lot of these DAWs, there are problems and bugs. However, the difference is that I've actually stayed in Reaper because the huge flexibility allows you to often work around a problem. Something in Logic is broken? - You're screwed because firstly Logic is more of less completely backwards incompatible. The last version is tied to the OSX version. I can't even install the latest Logic because I have no need or desire to upgrade OSX. Then even if you could change versions easily, there is a huge download to deal with. In this scenario it is completely unacceptable to release half baked, buggy code.
Old 5th January 2016
  #147
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As I've already said, I think both Reaper and Studio One are good (despite my Reaper rants about a current issue that was wrecking my workflow) but Reaper trumps Studio One completely in one area - the cost. Reaper can't be beaten in this department considering the features it has. I don't mind buying software but when you've shelled out a lot for software and the developer's utterly let you down, you don't do this again. In the case of Reaper, they don't break you bank balance.
Old 5th January 2016
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by efflux View Post
I got burnt with the Apple buy out. I used Logic on a PC. Bought it before Apple took over and ditched the PC version.
I was in the exact opposite boat than you. I had been working in Apple systems for the better part of about 15+ years at that time and I was sick of paying two-three grand for a new system every time mine started to get slow. PC's were were cheap and gaining fast ground in the raw power category just prior to Apple acquiring Logic.

Truth told I needed a native program that could make transferring projects from the one platform over to the other easy and seamless. I saw the light when Studio Vision Pro died and Pro Tools was always way expensive upgrading/expanding compared to native. (Also remember Pro Tools was an audio program that worked side by side with Vision doing the midi. Once Vision started falling behind and died after Gibson bought and ran them into the ground that was it for me.) I wanted to go native and it was getting around the time when there was just enough juice to run quite a few plugs natively and still tool around the audio. Logic's track freeze was a godsend right about that time. And I was just blown away by the power of it to say the least.

I got everything I wanted to keep over on the PC platform as a result. Then Apple pulled the plug, but I came across Samplitude by chance. I was over at a friends home studio when he showed me what he was using for his DAW. It was the entry level version of Magix (Samplitude) and I mean it looked identical to Logic at the time. I looked into the full version and it was a seamless transition. Everything was located in the same locations, the feel and look was identical. There were a few virtual instruments missing but I went with third parties to fill the gap.

I never looked back.

Edit: I still wish I could get that audio to midi feature that Studio Vision had. Nothing currently on the market like it.
Old 6th January 2016
  #149
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I use an Mac Mini for audio. As far as I remember Samplitude is not available for OSX so this would explain why I haven't spent much time looking into it. Their sampler is awesome though. It's such a shame that Kontakt has the monopoly. My mini is the i7 server one that they discontinued. Easily powerful enough for my needs. I replaced the second drive with an SSD type. It's very quiet. I have an RME AES card in a thunderbolt box since I obviously can't put it in the Mini. This connects to a few things including a Mytek AD/DA. This has been rock solid. The RME digital end is clearly very well made. I love the Mytek for conversion though. Firewire wasn't good on the Mini. I had endless issues with Firewire and the Mytek. It may ironically be better on Windows but AES via the RME utterly outperforms anything else I've used.

I'm not a fan of Windows although I have it on another desktop PC. It's noisy but I don't care. I use that for graphics stuff. The OS I mainly use on that is Linux. I wish there were more plugins for Linux. This is the main problem with it otherwise Linux would be great. The few DAWs that work on Linux have all performed very nicely when I've tried them. Better than on Windows or OSX. I've tried Bitwig but that was buggy. Tracktion is a great DAW that works on Linux. It's missing stuff though like inserting outboard hardware for processing. I found slight bugginess with this in Reaper but it works. Logic worked great for that and I think Studio One does as well.
Old 31st July 2016
  #150
Slightly old thread but just wanted to add. I mainly produce electronic music with external gear, and record live players and vocalists. But kind of a generalist and dabble with a lot of different genres. I used Reaper for a while last year but found myself not really digging the layout/workflow etc. Its great you can use different themes and tweak stuff, but still just all the pref windows were kind of strange. I used to use cubase (sx days) but didn't really like the price or need of using a usb lock. I installed the S1 3 demo and pretty much started making music i liked right away. For what ever i wanted to do, i found it super easy to make happen. At that point i knew i was sold on it but did some research on the product. Was a bit skeptical due to not the greatest hardware. I bought the pro v and haven't regretted it. I found it more logical than logic, and a great software for versatility. I did try the S1 2 demo when it was out but it didnt resonate with me. I haven't mastered a project in it yet, but the work flow they have for that is pretty amazing. I keep up with the reaper blog, and a couple others, and it's pretty apparent that updates and development are more common in S1. Logic is really an after thought to apple, who are more into streaming music and tiny tablets at this point. Btw, I'm on mac.
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