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DAW Dilemma: Is PT a solid DAW for someone out there?
Old 31st August 2015
  #1
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DAW Dilemma: Is PT a solid DAW for someone out there?

Warning: frustrated, stream of consciousness rant ahead...

Edit: in the interest of specificity, here are my system specs:

iMac 3.4ghz i7 Quad Core, 16g RAM, OSX 10.9.5, PT 11.3.1
UAD Apollo interface (track through Burl B2, monitor through D Box, not that any of that should matter here...)


I'm a long time Pro Tools guy. I know it inside and out, I work by keystrokes, I'm fast at it.

But for the last couple years, it's just been SO G*&$amn buggy. I have errors all the time. CPU errors (when I'm nowhere near pushing my CPU), disk allocation stuff, lost audio files. It's incredibly frustrating. Just brutal. I trash preferences, I reboot, I occasionally pay the $35 to call and talk to an actual support person (). I've lately just been feeling fed up like crazy, to put it lightly. I'm trying to exercise restraint right now as I type because I want to just scream expletives.

Tonight I'm working on some simple live audio/video performances. A few mics and some video. I am getting the same couple errors OVER AND OVER. I have to restart PT about 10-15 times a night. And it's laggy as hell with the video engine going.

IS PRO TOOLS A RELIABLE DAW FOR SOMEONE OUT THERE? Like, it just works and it's rock solid and you love it? There must be people who have this experience, right? Anyone?

As I said, PT has sucked for me for a couple years (PT8 was alright, PT9, PT10 and PT11 are all just buggy, buggy dogs for me...) so I downloaded a demo of Cubase this week. If things went smoothly, I was ready to be out of PT land, hopefully forever. I spent about an hour in it (Cubase) and it was a nightmare. Everything seemed so obtuse and unclear. Took me forever to figure out how to route inputs. I couldn't find windows and options that seemed like they'd be the meat and potatoes of any DAW. I bailed.

I knew it was gonna be a shock to the system to jump into another DAW after so much time in PT, but Cubase was just making no sense to me.

So now I'm in no man's land. I absolutely hate the DAW I know, but I don't have time to spend just relearning the basics in another DAW.

Oh yeah, I think the PT issues are worse since getting my Apollo. Before that I had a BLA 003 and I don't remember having anywhere near this much Pro Tools BS to deal with.

Anyway. I guess I'm just looking for informed insight here. Is it my Apollo? Is it just that PT native just sucks horribly? Surely it can't be this bad for everyone? Is it worth spending a ton of time getting proficient in another DAW?

Any insight is appreciated.
Old 31st August 2015
  #2
I run primarily PT10 - native at home/on the move, TDM at the studio.

The issues I have:

- too many autotunes in a session causes memory issues and can make things fall over.
- Slate plugins can be a bit unstable - again on 10 it seems to be memory related.
- too many synths, and (again) it can fall over due to memory issues.
- a couple of known bugs. For example using the Apple + 0 command to grid a region, if you've got a crossfade at the end of the region it'll crash.
- going between 10 and 11 - Echoboy isn't compatible between TDM and AAX, and will crash going back to the TDM rig.

As you can see - these issues are all known, and mostly a limitation of the 4GB RAM limit. I can go weeks without crashing if I avoid them - can't remember the last time I had a crash during a band tracking session.

<video lag - try hiding the video track but still leave it active>

I'm very strict on keeping all avid hardware - I run HD Native at home. That said - I've not had any issues using 3rd party interfaces when I've needed to.

I've not used PT11 that much, but loaded up a PT10 session the other day to run off stems offline. No issues at all, and that was using all the same plugins (Slate etc).

I'm not on 10.9 though - 10.8.5 on both rigs. I always thought Maverick was a bit of a stopgap - they moved on to Yosemite so quickly. Maybe an update there is worthwhile?

When was the last time you did a fresh install? Did you upgrade your last OS, or install it from scratch? Trashing prefs only goes so far - you don't mention ever having done a fresh install, but in your case I'd get an external USB3 or TB drive, and build a new system on it. Run using that for a few days and see how it goes. Ideally with nothing other than the latest PT and plugins installed. Are all your plugins up to date too?

I can't remember the last error I got either, and I've certainly never lost files. Regardless of what people on here say, PT IS still the standard for "recording" in a commercial studio (usually PT10 TDM still - maybe HDX/PT11 is creeping in). If it was that buggy, lost files regularly etc, it couldn't be!
Old 31st August 2015
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragan View Post
Warning: frustrated, stream of consciousness rant ahead... (). .... I spent about an hour in it (Cubase) and it was a nightmare. Everything seemed so obtuse and unclear.
Wow! First I'd like to offer my condolences.

Second, although I am not about to offer the golden answer to your situation, this does force me to revisit a business idea that I abandoned because a lucrative contract showed up (just in time).

For folks in the IT world, getting hands-on with VMware or Cisco networking hardware can be accomplished via a rental of an 'online pod', or sandbox that has the hardware and software you need to practice your skills. They're rented in increments of a work day, and are quite reasonable considering the amount of infrastructure it takes to make it happen.

Your rant makes me wonder if there's a market for a 'DAW pod', offering Cubase, SONAR, Digital Performer, Studio One, Reaper, Logic Pro X, etc., on a per-day basis. In another one of my projects, I had built a single-person online radio station server (sort of like ReaStream going into an Icecast or SHOUTcast equivalent) that would allow the user to hear what they're doing.

So (like in the As Seen on TV commercials), "How much would you pay for such a facility?"

The question is to the general audience reading this post. Asking such a question to a man in pain isn't fair, and won't give a good temperature check of marketability of this solution.

See ya.
Old 31st August 2015
  #4
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i get very few crashes either running HD native on my Macbook pro or on Trashcan macros or older Nehalims.

I DO use cloned hardrives to reinstate excellent and clean set ups for each new project and the recording machine (in the main studio ) has nothing but PT HD3 Acell on it (running 10 obviously). Everything else is running 11. The only crashes i do get are using PT 11 with lots of synths but that isn't really my world.
Old 31st August 2015
  #5
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The problem is not Protools, the problem are the VI's, ProTools
is not made for MIDI, it's for audio, as long as you use audio only
tracks, you are good to go, iof you try to sink it with Video, you might
ran into all sort of trouble unfortunately.
Old 31st August 2015
  #6
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Ragan's Avatar
 

Thanks for the responses guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I run primarily PT10 - native at home/on the move, TDM at the studio.

The issues I have:

- too many autotunes in a session causes memory issues and can make things fall over.
- Slate plugins can be a bit unstable - again on 10 it seems to be memory related.
- too many synths, and (again) it can fall over due to memory issues.
- a couple of known bugs. For example using the Apple + 0 command to grid a region, if you've got a crossfade at the end of the region it'll crash.
- going between 10 and 11 - Echoboy isn't compatible between TDM and AAX, and will crash going back to the TDM rig.

As you can see - these issues are all known, and mostly a limitation of the 4GB RAM limit. I can go weeks without crashing if I avoid them - can't remember the last time I had a crash during a band tracking session.

<video lag - try hiding the video track but still leave it active>

I'm very strict on keeping all avid hardware - I run HD Native at home. That said - I've not had any issues using 3rd party interfaces when I've needed to.

I've not used PT11 that much, but loaded up a PT10 session the other day to run off stems offline. No issues at all, and that was using all the same plugins (Slate etc).

I'm not on 10.9 though - 10.8.5 on both rigs. I always thought Maverick was a bit of a stopgap - they moved on to Yosemite so quickly. Maybe an update there is worthwhile?

When was the last time you did a fresh install? Did you upgrade your last OS, or install it from scratch? Trashing prefs only goes so far - you don't mention ever having done a fresh install, but in your case I'd get an external USB3 or TB drive, and build a new system on it. Run using that for a few days and see how it goes. Ideally with nothing other than the latest PT and plugins installed. Are all your plugins up to date too?

I can't remember the last error I got either, and I've certainly never lost files. Regardless of what people on here say, PT IS still the standard for "recording" in a commercial studio (usually PT10 TDM still - maybe HDX/PT11 is creeping in). If it was that buggy, lost files regularly etc, it couldn't be!
Do you mean fresh install of PT or of the OS? I did a fresh install of PT maybe a year ago? Didn't fix the issue at that time (forget which one it was) so I paid for support and they got it sorted through some preferences stuff.

Would it have been "fresh" when I upgraded to PT11?

As for the OS, I was holding off on Yosemite because people seemed to be having issues. But reading your post I went, "Wait a minute, I'm having a ****load of issues as it is now..." I can't imagine it could be worse. Maybe I'll do that today.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MediaGary View Post
Wow! First I'd like to offer my condolences.

Second, although I am not about to offer the golden answer to your situation, this does force me to revisit a business idea that I abandoned because a lucrative contract showed up (just in time).

For folks in the IT world, getting hands-on with VMware or Cisco networking hardware can be accomplished via a rental of an 'online pod', or sandbox that has the hardware and software you need to practice your skills. They're rented in increments of a work day, and are quite reasonable considering the amount of infrastructure it takes to make it happen.

Your rant makes me wonder if there's a market for a 'DAW pod', offering Cubase, SONAR, Digital Performer, Studio One, Reaper, Logic Pro X, etc., on a per-day basis. In another one of my projects, I had built a single-person online radio station server (sort of like ReaStream going into an Icecast or SHOUTcast equivalent) that would allow the user to hear what they're doing.

So (like in the As Seen on TV commercials), "How much would you pay for such a facility?"

The question is to the general audience reading this post. Asking such a question to a man in pain isn't fair, and won't give a good temperature check of marketability of this solution.

See ya.
An interesting idea.


Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
i get very few crashes either running HD native on my Macbook pro or on Trashcan macros or older Nehalims.

I DO use cloned hardrives to reinstate excellent and clean set ups for each new project and the recording machine (in the main studio ) has nothing but PT HD3 Acell on it (running 10 obviously). Everything else is running 11. The only crashes i do get are using PT 11 with lots of synths but that isn't really my world.
The "cloned" for each new project thing is over my head. Care to elaborate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbone View Post
The problem is not Protools, the problem are the VI's, ProTools
is not made for MIDI, it's for audio, as long as you use audio only
tracks, you are good to go, iof you try to sink it with Video, you might
ran into all sort of trouble unfortunately.
I'm not using MIDI or VI's the vast majority of the time.
Old 31st August 2015
  #7
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narcoman's Avatar
 

sure.

When each machine is set up with a new Operating system (of which i don't do upgrade but rather fresh installs - so i don't do it often!!) it gets PT etc (plugins and a few other things) set up. Then we clone the working and clean set up to a back up system. For each new project the system gets flushed with a reclone of the clone.

keeps it clean for streamlined use.
Old 31st August 2015
  #8
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freudes's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbone View Post
The problem is not Protools, the problem are the VI's, ProTools
is not made for MIDI, it's for audio, as long as you use audio only
tracks, you are good to go, iof you try to sink it with Video, you might
ran into all sort of trouble unfortunately.
This is funny considering
1 - 100% of the movie industry is working with PT. If video wasn't usable, i guess Avid should be dead by now
2 - at least 50% of movie composers use it for composing. Meaning midi tracks and 1.000 VIs...

Otherwise, OP is right. I, personally, experience crashes every time we mix, and this is with audio tracks only, in various studios, with the same old few plugins...

We just live with it :-/

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
When each machine is set up with a new Operating system (of which i don't do upgrade but rather fresh installs - so i don't do it often!!) it gets PT etc (plugins and a few other things) set up. Then we clone the working and clean set up to a back up system. For each new project the system gets flushed with a reclone of the clone.
Unfortunately i've been using PT in very well maintained studios with very clean setup with clones, backup and sh*t, and it still crashes.
Old 31st August 2015
  #9
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I do use a ton of Slate plugs, which was mentioned above. I've had overt bugs with them several times, which have all finally been resolved, but could they cause the kind of seemingly unrelated errors I'm getting?

I also use UAD, Softube, FabFilter, SoundToys and Klanghelm plugs. And a bunch of others I can't think of at the moment.
Old 31st August 2015
  #10
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narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by freudes View Post

Unfortunately i've been using PT in very well maintained studios with very clean setup with clones, backup and sh*t, and it still crashes.
Thats the process we, abbey road, air and many others use. Its pretty solid!! ... On the recording and mixing rigs I think I'm getting a crash , what, once a year maybe? And thats generally if some odd install happened with a plugin etc.

Ive found PT to crash a lot less than any other system BUT - there is a huge caveat here - other systems are of composers with lots of VIs and the systems being used for other things. I HAVE seen a lot of the old PT LE rigs crashing - but my TDM rigs (and now my HD Native) just don't crash. The story oftn mentioned "in the biz" is stick to Avid recommendations and don't mess! then it works.... hahaha
Old 31st August 2015
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
Thats the process we, abbey road, air and many others use. Its pretty solid!! ... On the recording and mixing rigs I think I'm getting a crash , what, once a year maybe? And thats generally if some odd install happened with a plugin etc.

Ive found PT to crash a lot less than any other system BUT - there is a huge caveat here - other systems are of composers with lots of VIs and the systems being used for other things. I HAVE seen a lot of the old PT LE rigs crashing - but my TDM rigs (and now my HD Native) just don't crash. The story oftn mentioned "in the biz" is stick to Avid recommendations and don't mess! then it works.... hahaha
If I didn't make it clear above, I'm using PT11 Native.

Maybe PT Native just isn't that stable. There's no way the amount of bugs and crashes I'm getting is the norm though. I've got friends who run Native and don't have anywhere near my issues. And as I said, I used to have only occasional crashing/bugs. But the last couple years have been increasingly full of just nonsense for me.

I have an idea for the perfect DAW. It would be just like Pro Tools, but it would run smoothly and be reliable. Someone should jump on that idea. Make a million bucks.
Old 31st August 2015
  #12
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freudes's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
Thats the process we, abbey road, air and many others use. Its pretty solid!! ... On the recording and mixing rigs I think I'm getting a crash , what, once a year maybe? And thats generally if some odd install happened with a plugin etc.
Honestly, we don't do weird things. Video, audio stems and everybody's plugs (Altiverb, waves, sonnox, wavearts...) and we always got one crash. Nothing fancy, but it happens.

But on major big movies, when we got hundreds of tracks and gazillions 5.1 reverbs, well, yes, it crashes all day long.
Old 31st August 2015
  #13
Unless you are required to use it than why bother sticking with it? Knowing it well isn't a good enough reason if it's causing you this much grief. With all the resources out there it's easy enough to learn another piece of software. Stop trying to repeat the same thing and expect different results. That is the very definition of insanity.

If money is the issue (i.e. not wanting to buy another DAW), Reaper is better in almost every way, stable as hell, and only costs $60 (and essentially has a fully functional indefinite demo period). Logic generally excels at the few things that Reaper is not so good at (mostly just midi related stuff, and general ergonomics) and is fairly inexpensive for a fully featured DAW. The only thing that Pro Tools has that others don't is the track Playlist feature (most other DAWs' take systems are item based, which i'm not a fan of)

I think if you have an overpowered computer, you can run PT without experiencing crashes (unless plugin related). PT 10 and onwards have been fairly crash-free for me. However, it still has plenty of bugs and lack of basic functionality (freezing for example). At this point, I only use Pro Tools if I think the project is going to end up in a larger commercial studio.
Old 31st August 2015
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freudes View Post
This is funny considering
1 - 100% of the movie industry is working with PT. If video wasn't usable, i guess Avid should be dead by now
2 - at least 50% of movie composers use it for composing. Meaning midi tracks and 1.000 VIs...

Otherwise, OP is right. I, personally, experience crashes every time we mix, and this is with audio tracks only, in various studios, with the same old few plugins...

We just live with it :-/



Unfortunately i've been using PT in very well maintained studios with very clean setup with clones, backup and sh*t, and it still crashes.

As you said it's funny. your system isn't that " clean " or ProTool would not crash
that often……….
Old 31st August 2015
  #15
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narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by freudes View Post
Honestly, we don't do weird things. Video, audio stems and everybody's plugs (Altiverb, waves, sonnox, wavearts...) and we always got one crash. Nothing fancy, but it happens.

But on major big movies, when we got hundreds of tracks and gazillions 5.1 reverbs, well, yes, it crashes all day long.
is this one machine or many?

I was running two Nehalims for years - now managing to do it all off one trash can. I had memory damage on one of the Nehalims which caused issues for a little while. Could be that?
Old 31st August 2015
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EsotericMetal View Post
Unless you are required to use it than why bother sticking with it? Knowing it well isn't a good enough reason if it's causing you this much grief. With all the resources out there it's easy enough to learn another piece of software. Stop trying to repeat the same thing and expect different results. That is the very definition of insanity.

If money is the issue (i.e. not wanting to buy another DAW), Reaper is better in almost every way, stable as hell, and only costs $60 (and essentially has a fully functional indefinite demo period). Logic generally excels at the few things that Reaper is not so good at (mostly just midi related stuff, and general ergonomics) and is fairly inexpensive for a fully featured DAW. The only thing that Pro Tools has that others don't is the track Playlist feature (most other DAWs' take systems are item based, which i'm not a fan of)

I think if you have an overpowered computer, you can run PT without experiencing crashes (unless plugin related). PT 10 and onwards have been fairly crash-free for me. However, it still has plenty of bugs and lack of basic functionality (freezing for example). At this point, I only use Pro Tools if I think the project is going to end up in a larger commercial studio.
This is exactly what has had me thinking of other DAWs. My hour in Cubase scared me I guess. I'm so fluent in PT it seems I'd be slow and cumbersome in another DAW for quite awhile.

Also, I've got a 3.4g i7 iMac with 16g of RAM. And I use some UAD stuff which is offloaded DSP. I'm not anywhere near maxing it out even on large sessions. I can't help but think something else is up. There's no way people are putting up with this much nonsense and sticking with PT.

I started the update to Yosemite this morning before I left. I'll see how that does. I should also try a Slate free mix and see if anything is different. They've historically been buggy plugs.
Old 1st September 2015
  #17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragan View Post
Do you mean fresh install of PT or of the OS? I did a fresh install of PT maybe a year ago? Didn't fix the issue at that time (forget which one it was) so I paid for support and they got it sorted through some preferences stuff.
No, I mean repartition the drive and start from scratch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragan View Post
I started the update to Yosemite this morning before I left. I'll see how that does. I should also try a Slate free mix and see if anything is different. They've historically been buggy plugs.
OK, that's NOT what I meant. You're taking the quick option, which is more likely to compound any OS issues than fix them.

Reformat (or better, find a fresh drive so you can keep your existing installation) and go from scratch - reinstall EVERYTHING.

And don't just avoid using Slate plugins - don't install them in the first place, and try mixing and see how you get on. if you get on ok, then install them one by one and see how you get on then?

One thing - the Slate plugs install both RTAS and AAX versions. In PT10 at least, removing the RTAS from the folder helps memory issues. I know PT11 doesn't use RTAS but still can't hurt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freudes View Post
This is funny considering

Unfortunately i've been using PT in very well maintained studios with very clean setup with clones, backup and sh*t, and it still crashes.
That's not a well set up rig then - At the very least, there's a buggy plugin causing the issue. Because a well set up rig doesn't do that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragan View Post
I do use a ton of Slate plugs, which was mentioned above. I've had overt bugs with them several times, which have all finally been resolved, but could they cause the kind of seemingly unrelated errors I'm getting?

I also use UAD, Softube, FabFilter, SoundToys and Klanghelm plugs. And a bunch of others I can't think of at the moment.
I have Waves Mercury, Soundtoys, Altiverb, everything Slate, Autotune 5/6/8, Exponential verbs, Valhalla Verbs, Flux, NI Komplete and a bunch of other stuff - the only issues I get are the ones I mentioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freudes View Post
Honestly, we don't do weird things. Video, audio stems and everybody's plugs (Altiverb, waves, sonnox, wavearts...) and we always got one crash. Nothing fancy, but it happens.

But on major big movies, when we got hundreds of tracks and gazillions 5.1 reverbs, well, yes, it crashes all day long.
I run big mixes (not hundreds of tracks or 5.1 admittedly) with picture, and 100 track mixes audio only, and it's fine - apart from memory related crashes. Are you running PT10 or 11?
Old 1st September 2015
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
No, I mean repartition the drive and start from scratch.



OK, that's NOT what I meant. You're taking the quick option, which is more likely to compound any OS issues than fix them.

Reformat (or better, find a fresh drive so you can keep your existing installation) and go from scratch - reinstall EVERYTHING.

And don't just avoid using Slate plugins - don't install them in the first place, and try mixing and see how you get on. if you get on ok, then install them one by one and see how you get on then?

One thing - the Slate plugs install both RTAS and AAX versions. In PT10 at least, removing the RTAS from the folder helps memory issues. I know PT11 doesn't use RTAS but still can't hurt.

Gotcha. Well I may need to try something more drastic like that. I'll see how the updated Yosemite works. I also just noticed the external drive I use for audio is pretty full. Clearing some storage headroom right now.
Old 1st September 2015
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragan View Post
so I downloaded a demo of Cubase this week. If things went smoothly, I was ready to be out of PT land, hopefully forever. I spent about an hour in it (Cubase) and it was a nightmare. Everything seemed so obtuse and unclear. Took me forever to figure out how to route inputs. I couldn't find windows and options that seemed like they'd be the meat and potatoes of any DAW. I bailed.
Admittedly, Cubase could be a bit better organized IMO. However, it is a matter of spending some time with a DAW, no matter which one. Things are named different, different menu structure, different key commands. I switch between DAWs all the time and obviously it is a struggle for me to test with DAWs I am not very familiar with.
After having been a Logic/Cubase/Nuendo guy for years, ProTools wasn't the easiest thing to get into either. Especially not with a german PC keyboard on Windows...


Quote:
Originally Posted by freudes View Post
This is funny considering
2 - at least 50% of movie composers use it for composing. Meaning midi tracks and 1.000 VIs...
TBH I highly doubt that figure is that high. We have a lot of TV/movie composing customers and I don't think any of them used PT for composing. Some of them mix into a TDM system, yes, but the composing usually is done in Cubase/Logic/DP. Of course, this could be my own blurred little bubble of reality...

Now, regarding PT: it runs stable here, but it is more sensitive to system settings than most other DAWs. Especially HDX requires extra tweaks to make sure it is rock solid, but surely not impossible.
I'm not a PT power user myself, but our PT customers have 0 stability problems.

Last edited by DAW PLUS; 1st September 2015 at 08:17 AM..
Old 1st September 2015
  #20
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I doubt 50% of all movie composers uses ProTools for composing, anyway that's not the impression I have got at ex. V.I.Control. Digital Performer or Cubase seems to be the preferred DAW for composers with a lot of V.I.'s
Old 1st September 2015
  #21
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I mix film score. Its mostly Logic and Cubase out there with a smattering of Nuendo and Pro Tools.
Old 1st September 2015
  #22
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MSG Removed.

Last edited by Harlock; 1st September 2015 at 03:17 PM.. Reason: Erased.
Old 1st September 2015
  #23
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I had a much smoother night last night after updating to Yosemite and clearing some space off my audio drive.

Only one PT hang up when I was quickly starting and stopping the session a few times in a row with video running.

Other than that it was quicker, more responsive and running smoothly. Way to early to say if things will stay this way but I'm thankful for some improvement.
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