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Acustica audio acqua plugins general discussion Dynamics Plugins
Old 28th March 2016
  #3001
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelangeMode View Post
Can someone recommend alternative to Navy? I really like sound of Navy. I can't live without it actually. But Navy kills my workflow and creativity seriously.

I wanna use it while producing but i cannot play keyboard while using multiple Navy instances even with ZL version because of its latency.
I also cannot use many tracks. Only using Navy while mixing is not an option because I produce and mix simultaneously.

I heard good thing about slate FG-N. Is it able to bring same quality of neve sound like navy?
sonimus burnley 73 - light on cpu, cheap and sounds very nice
Old 28th March 2016
  #3002
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelangeMode View Post
Can someone recommend alternative to Navy? I really like sound of Navy. I can't live without it actually. But Navy kills my workflow and creativity seriously.

I wanna use it while producing but i cannot play keyboard while using multiple Navy instances even with ZL version because of its latency.
I also cannot use many tracks. Only using Navy while mixing is not an option because I produce and mix simultaneously.

I heard good thing about slate FG-N. Is it able to bring same quality of neve sound like navy?
If you are looking for another 1081 eq (eq curve and frequencies), I would go for the t-racks eq81, but if you are looking for the neve coloration, the slate and the burley are wunderful. I would probably choose burley.
Old 28th March 2016
  #3003
Lives for gear
 
jfjer's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelangeMode View Post
Can someone recommend alternative to Navy? I really like sound of Navy. I can't live without it actually. But Navy kills my workflow and creativity seriously.

I wanna use it while producing but i cannot play keyboard while using multiple Navy instances even with ZL version because of its latency.
I also cannot use many tracks. Only using Navy while mixing is not an option because I produce and mix simultaneously.

I heard good thing about slate FG-N. Is it able to bring same quality of neve sound like navy?
FG_N ain't bad .the best Neve algo around IMO
just as good as the uad version in my ears
but because you can chose frequencies on it its much more versatile ,
so because of that even better than the ua version for mixing and you can therefore make a preset so it starts on 1081 frequencies , and it got an extra added mid band that doesn't hurt for mixing
it was probably the one that could get me the closest , personally i think its quality is beating ik multimedia , i like it much more than ik, to me the ik offerings sound more flat than FG-N, the Scheps i hated its so thin sounding. the burnley 73 is the only one i haven't tried so that is really woth looking into since others here say its on FG-N level in quality, and the price to is very different
but if you cant chose frequencies on burnley i think FG-N will take the win in the algo world
but i say give the burley demo a spin no matter what because its cheaper , but then again VMR the basic one aint bad priced really for what you get. its the addons i find costly, they cost just as mush as the VMR basic that has 4 plug ins, 5 including the REVIVAL that is a pretty useful tool and free if you have an ilok already


the truth
i still cant replace Navy though, only Navy is Navy, its special, even with some boosts i feel Navy still maintain the body of the audio
the algos thins out , they feels thinner when you are close to the boost you did with navy, its feels like Navy moves air(audio) so much more effortless
some are worse than others of the algos like sheps ,this is really thin and it honestly sound bad beside FG-N

you could use FG-N in early production and replace with Navy when its mix time
many is doing it this way
but personally i refuse, so i turned to Reaper who has so superior freeze function its absolutely worth getting into not kidding incredible freeze functions on this DAW and the Freezing is so fast you really dont know what good freeze is before you have tried reaper,
you can even freeze buses ,

i left logic x for it and dont regret it,
regular freeze that we are used to in other DAW`s is a joke compared
incredible that other DAW`s that cost 10 times more dont offer this funktion really. i mean why ? all DAW\s should implement this kind level of freeze .
another thing, no other DAW let you run more instances of the acustica stuff than Reaper either,
it will take some time getting used to but if you are all in for the acquas and or nebula theres nothing to think about
learn reaper, once you get used to the freeze function you will miss it so bad in any other DAW that you will return to Reaper because of it


the other option is much more expensive, get a powerful computer like intel 5820k
BasariStudios could run 30 Navys in ZL at 256 buffer size with everything engaged running audio trough it and only hit 20% cpu

im gonna get that cpu, but im still not gonna leave reaper now when im used to it cause its just as good as other DAW`s when you learn it , and as i mentioned it have secret weapons that is killer to have with acustica products that other DAW`s hasn't
so it will be spectacular using it with a 5820k

best of luck

Cheers
Old 29th March 2016
  #3004
Lives for gear
 
doom64's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfjer View Post
FG_N ain't bad .the best Neve algo around IMO
just as good as the uad version in my ears
but because you can chose frequencies on it its much more versatile ,
so because of that even better than the ua version for mixing and you can therefore make a preset so it starts on 1081 frequencies , and it got an extra added mid band that doesn't hurt for mixing
it was probably the one that could get me the closest , personally i think its quality is beating ik multimedia , i like it much more than ik, to me the ik offerings sound more flat than FG-N, the Scheps i hated its so thin sounding. the burnley 73 is the only one i haven't tried so that is really woth looking into since others here say its on FG-N level in quality, and the price to is very different
but if you cant chose frequencies on burnley i think FG-N will take the win in the algo world
but i say give the burley demo a spin no matter what because its cheaper , but then again VMR the basic one aint bad priced really for what you get. its the addons i find costly, they cost just as mush as the VMR basic that has 4 plug ins, 5 including the REVIVAL that is a pretty useful tool and free if you have an ilok already


the truth
i still cant replace Navy though, only Navy is Navy, its special, even with some boosts i feel Navy still maintain the body of the audio
the algos thins out , they feels thinner when you are close to the boost you did with navy, its feels like Navy moves air(audio) so much more effortless
some are worse than others of the algos like sheps ,this is really thin and it honestly sound bad beside FG-N

you could use FG-N in early production and replace with Navy when its mix time
many is doing it this way
but personally i refuse, so i turned to Reaper who has so superior freeze function its absolutely worth getting into not kidding incredible freeze functions on this DAW and the Freezing is so fast you really dont know what good freeze is before you have tried reaper,
you can even freeze buses ,

i left logic x for it and dont regret it,
regular freeze that we are used to in other DAW`s is a joke compared
incredible that other DAW`s that cost 10 times more dont offer this funktion really. i mean why ? all DAW\s should implement this kind level of freeze .
another thing, no other DAW let you run more instances of the acustica stuff than Reaper either,
it will take some time getting used to but if you are all in for the acquas and or nebula theres nothing to think about
learn reaper, once you get used to the freeze function you will miss it so bad in any other DAW that you will return to Reaper because of it


the other option is much more expensive, get a powerful computer like intel 5820k
BasariStudios could run 30 Navys in ZL at 256 buffer size with everything engaged running audio trough it and only hit 20% cpu

im gonna get that cpu, but im still not gonna leave reaper now when im used to it cause its just as good as other DAW`s when you learn it , and as i mentioned it have secret weapons that is killer to have with acustica products that other DAW`s hasn't
so it will be spectacular using it with a 5820k

best of luck

Cheers
This.

I am a fan of Slate and IK plugins but damn it if Acustica didn't knock it out of the park with NAVY. Effortless, as @jfjer said, is a great descriptor of it.

Pink, their API 550A/B and 2500 compressor offering, will probably also sit alongside NAVY as my go to "colored" equalizer plugins.
Old 29th March 2016
  #3005
Lives for gear
 
Mercado_Negro's Avatar
I think all fans of the Neve sound will see real soon a nice surprise from a 3rd party developer who's about to wake up from a long sleep

[EDIT] and it's out...
Old 29th March 2016
  #3006
Lives for gear
 
Will The Weirdo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
I think all fans of the Neve sound will see real soon a nice surprise from a 3rd party developer who's about to wake up from a long sleep

[EDIT] and it's out...
A link would be nice.
Old 29th March 2016
  #3007
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Mercado_Negro's Avatar
Old 29th March 2016
  #3008
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jfjer's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
a fresh sampled neve console sounds very tempting indeed

i feel the quality bar has raised on many of new offerings from Alex B, Tim P, Cupwice and many v.2 and even v.3 versions in on its way
great stuff
so i expect this console to sound great, cant wait for some user feedback on AA forum or in here on it
Old 29th March 2016
  #3009
Lives for gear
 
Will The Weirdo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfjer View Post
a fresh sampled neve console sounds very tempting indeed

i feel the quality bar has raised on many of new offerings from Alex B, Tim P, Cupwice and many v.2 and even v.3 versions in on its way
great stuff
so i expect this console to sound great, cant wait for some user feedback on AA forum or in here on it
Come on CDSM.......Alex B has the Neve covered!

Where is the Trident 80B?
Where is the Focusrite Forte?
Where is the Amek 9098i?
Where is the MCI hot rodded 350/400?
Where is the API Legacy?
Where is the Quad 8?

LOL!!!
Old 29th March 2016
  #3010
Lives for gear
 
Finnish's Avatar
 

I have the Sphere and BBC-console frome CDN (plus R2R and TB+). It still bugs me that the optimal gain staging is not -18..
Old 29th March 2016
  #3011
Lives for gear
 
ultra171's Avatar
 

BTW, if you're looking for a modern, beefy, aggressive, workhorse compressor, the 88RS channel comp is your thing.

I was just demoing Presswerk from u-He (new compressor), and went "wow! amazing". Then I decided to match the settings (or close enough, with identical peak & RMS levels) with my 88RS, just for the hell of it. I maxed out the kernel times and flipped it into SPLITH mode..

No competition. Nebula wins every time. Presswerk sounds like plastic toy compared. All algos do. It's not even funny anymore. It's not fair.

It becomes really obvious when you drive that thing a few dB and use the SPLITH mode with full settings.
Old 29th March 2016
  #3012
Lives for gear
 
Avgatzeblouz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ultra171 View Post
BTW, if you're looking for a modern, beefy, aggressive, workhorse compressor, the 88RS channel comp is your thing.

I was just demoing Presswerk from u-He (new compressor), and went "wow! amazing". Then I decided to match the settings (or close enough, with identical peak & RMS levels) with my 88RS, just for the hell of it. I maxed out the kernel times and flipped it into SPLITH mode..

No competition. Nebula wins every time. Presswerk sounds like plastic toy compared. All algos do. It's not even funny anymore. It's not fair.

It becomes really obvious when you drive that thing a few dB and use the SPLITH mode with full settings.
Can you elaborate on these tweaks you are using ? Got me curious...
Old 29th March 2016
  #3013
Lives for gear
 
Finnish's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avgatzeblouz View Post
Can you elaborate on these tweaks you are using ? Got me curious...
+1
Old 29th March 2016
  #3014
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ultra171's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avgatzeblouz View Post
Can you elaborate on these tweaks you are using ? Got me curious...
Just max out all the kernel times (usually 13.7 ms with compressors) and switch to SPLITH mode. It's pretty subtle at first, but when you A/B with the algo you'll notice the difference..
Old 31st March 2016
  #3015
Here for the gear
 

Future AA User

Hi guys, I've been litteraly eating up this thread, it took me 2 days god that's a lot of posts.

I'm new to mixing, aim to mix my own music (blues, rythm'n'blues) and quality is what I aim for. It seems that I can't go wrong with AA world, I already got UAD stuff so a combination of the 2 will do wonders. So anyway, I've got some questions for you guys :


1 - I don't see myself looking into Neb3 now, since Neb4 is going to be released... in April? I understood that it will enable us to use Neb libraries with a "classic" plugin workflow, am I right? That said, will we be able to use existing stuff from AlexB &co with acqua-like workflow or must we wait for them to update all their librairies, with might take several months?


(I'm mainly interested in one of AlexB consoles probably the N14 ; his MMeq ; a Mixbus comp maybe Flucti-mew ; another amazing EQ to complement the free Red and Ochre)


2 - I've looked into Prime Studio plugins. They look amazing but much more pricey than Nebula counterparts... Would you advice to get them now or wait for Neb4 to be fully fonctionnal (I could wait till end April, then I'll really have to mix)


3 - Lots of librairies come in 44.1 and 96kHz versions. I was actually planning to record and mix in 88.2kHz, then convert to 44.1 for CD version, because I read it creates much less artifacts than 96 to 44.1 ... so if using Nebula it seems I have to choose between a) Work at 96kHz, thus have "better", more detailed processing, but THEN render to 44.1 which wasn't recommended OR b) Record at 88.2kHz, do all editing... then render to 44.1kHz and start mixing from there

What do you recommend?


Thanks a lot guys

-
Old 31st March 2016
  #3016
Lives for gear
 
Avgatzeblouz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockinRobinSTB View Post
Hi guys, I've been litteraly eating up this thread, it took me 2 days god that's a lot of posts.

I'm new to mixing, aim to mix my own music (blues, rythm'n'blues) and quality is what I aim for. It seems that I can't go wrong with AA world, I already got UAD stuff so a combination of the 2 will do wonders. So anyway, I've got some questions for you guys :


1 - I don't see myself looking into Neb3 now, since Neb4 is going to be released... in April? I understood that it will enable us to use Neb libraries with a "classic" plugin workflow, am I right? That said, will we be able to use existing stuff from AlexB &co with acqua-like workflow or must we wait for them to update all their librairies, with might take several months?


(I'm mainly interested in one of AlexB consoles probably the N14 ; his MMeq ; a Mixbus comp maybe Flucti-mew ; another amazing EQ to complement the free Red and Ochre)


2 - I've looked into Prime Studio plugins. They look amazing but much more pricey than Nebula counterparts... Would you advice to get them now or wait for Neb4 to be fully fonctionnal (I could wait till end April, then I'll really have to mix)


3 - Lots of librairies come in 44.1 and 96kHz versions. I was actually planning to record and mix in 88.2kHz, then convert to 44.1 for CD version, because I read it creates much less artifacts than 96 to 44.1 ... so if using Nebula it seems I have to choose between a) Work at 96kHz, thus have "better", more detailed processing, but THEN render to 44.1 which wasn't recommended OR b) Record at 88.2kHz, do all editing... then render to 44.1kHz and start mixing from there

What do you recommend?


Thanks a lot guys

-
Hey man !

From what I know :

1 - Neb4 will be a virtual rack of Nebula instances, like Soundtoys did with their v5. So one plugin to rule them all, even the Acquas.
It will be compatible with actual libraries.

2 - About Prime, there is no relation to the release of Neb4, as they are Acquas. You have to understand that Acquas are already Neb4, but with a skin, an interface with knobs, vu-meters, and colors. Try them, and buy them if you think they are worth it.

3 - Sampling rate. I always work at 44.1, and I hear there are problems of sampling conversions on some libraries, like you mentionned. Acquas are good at all sampling rates. Bear in mind the CPU load ! At 96 khz, your system might explode ! I would do the option b.


Since you are new to this game, there is one thing to consider : the workflow of Acquas is much better, for now. Let's see what N4 will really be. But the price of Nebula + libraries is way way less than Acquas, and to my opinion, for the same quality. Some libraries are insanely good, and they cost 40$ !!
Anyway, welcome, and have fun !!
Old 31st March 2016
  #3017
Gear Addict
 
Macsearcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avgatzeblouz View Post
the workflow of Acquas is much better, for now.
Anyway, welcome, and have fun !!
Considering that NebulaSetups can create separate instances of any patch with Nebula, I'm not sure that there are many advantages to the Aqua workflow. The lovely GUI's are definitely a plus, I'll admit.
Old 31st March 2016
  #3018
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockinRobinSTB View Post
Hi guys, I've been litteraly eating up this thread, it took me 2 days god that's a lot of posts.

I'm new to mixing, aim to mix my own music (blues, rythm'n'blues) and quality is what I aim for. It seems that I can't go wrong with AA world, I already got UAD stuff so a combination of the 2 will do wonders. So anyway, I've got some questions for you guys :


1 - I don't see myself looking into Neb3 now, since Neb4 is going to be released... in April? I understood that it will enable us to use Neb libraries with a "classic" plugin workflow, am I right? That said, will we be able to use existing stuff from AlexB &co with acqua-like workflow or must we wait for them to update all their librairies, with might take several months?


(I'm mainly interested in one of AlexB consoles probably the N14 ; his MMeq ; a Mixbus comp maybe Flucti-mew ; another amazing EQ to complement the free Red and Ochre)


2 - I've looked into Prime Studio plugins. They look amazing but much more pricey than Nebula counterparts... Would you advice to get them now or wait for Neb4 to be fully fonctionnal (I could wait till end April, then I'll really have to mix)


3 - Lots of librairies come in 44.1 and 96kHz versions. I was actually planning to record and mix in 88.2kHz, then convert to 44.1 for CD version, because I read it creates much less artifacts than 96 to 44.1 ... so if using Nebula it seems I have to choose between a) Work at 96kHz, thus have "better", more detailed processing, but THEN render to 44.1 which wasn't recommended OR b) Record at 88.2kHz, do all editing... then render to 44.1kHz and start mixing from there

What do you recommend?


Thanks a lot guys

-
Only two days?

first of all don´t believe that nebula4 will be release in april. Gian nearly somewhere mentioned june, but honestly it could be even later.
I work often in 96khz/24bit and yes my system was manytimes before the explosion, but I hear I can get higher harmonics pleasing to the ear, but workflow is far away complicated. I convert when is mix complete
before mastering or I send mix to master with the original frequency.
frankly, I prefer when mix and master make different two people.
about nebula I highly recommend zabukowski´s nebula setup. this program is very handy.
Old 31st March 2016
  #3019
Lives for gear
 
Will The Weirdo's Avatar
At this point, waiting for Nebula 4 is not a good idea, until an actual release date has been released. AA are too busy clockin stacks with Acqua to focus on Nebula 4. Nebula 4 was originally said to be released fall of 2014, so Nebula 4 is so behind schedule it's become vaporware, to me, until it's released, lol. Go Nebula 3 Server or Acqua's for now.
Acqua - convenient and expensive.
Nebula 3 - not convenient and cheap.

On a side note, it does come off strange that Nebula 4 is soooooo far behind, but all the Acqua's use nebula 4 technology..... hmmm, as it will not benefit AA to release Nebula 4 so 3rd party vendors can directly compete with Acqua's. It kind of then makes sense for AA to delay Nebula 4 and focus on new Acqua's..... I'm just saying, lol.
Old 31st March 2016
  #3020
Gear Maniac
 
lowlou's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will The Weirdo View Post
At this point, waiting for Nebula 4 is not a good idea, until an actual release date has been released. AA are too busy clockin stacks with Acqua to focus on Nebula 4. Nebula 4 was originally said to be released fall of 2014, so Nebula 4 is so behind schedule it's become vaporware, to me, until it's released, lol. Go Nebula 3 Server or Acqua's for now.
Acqua - convenient and expensive.
Nebula 3 - not convenient and cheap.

On a side note, it does come off strange that Nebula 4 is soooooo far behind, but all the Acqua's use nebula 4 technology..... hmmm, as it will not benefit AA to release Nebula 4 so 3rd party vendors can directly compete with Acqua's. It kind of then makes sense for AA to delay Nebula 4 and focus on new Acqua's..... I'm just saying, lol.
three paths are ahead of us, after nebula 4 release :

1- Acustica lower its price for acquas to compete with Alex b, Tim p etc
2- Alex b, Tim p etc raise their prices to match Acustica prices.
3- everything become free, because since the beginning, Henry Olonga was the hidden mastermind.
Old 31st March 2016
  #3021
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will The Weirdo View Post

On a side note, it does come off strange that Nebula 4 is soooooo far behind, but all the Acqua's use nebula 4 technology..... hmmm, as it will not benefit AA to release Nebula 4 so 3rd party vendors can directly compete with Acqua's. It kind of then makes sense for AA to delay Nebula 4 and focus on new Acqua's..... I'm just saying, lol.
the later the better. i mean not for us, of course
Old 31st March 2016
  #3022
Lives for gear
 
zaphod's Avatar
- I don't think we can lower prices more than what we are doing now. Creating an acqua plug-in (or a skinned nebula4 library) requires an hell of work. If you want nice things (user manuals, debugging, tons of sampled programs, support, homebrew creations and hardware, research....) you need to invest and product cannot be extremely cheap, unless our employees start working for free (they are already doing a lot of things for free )
- I don't think our third party can go for higher prices for simple libraries, nobody would buy them. They have a good marketing positioning already.
- There is a new magic thing which will fix magically everything and the code name is aquarius - so a deus-ex-machina. You miss a piece.

Btw I start saying it everywhere. In july there will be a decent workshop in italy for all developers (or candidate developers). We'll post more details soon.
Last thing: we are entering today the core8 age. It is the engine which will be used our first nebula4 release.
It is a powerful engine which allows to control nebula instances inside acquaplugins/nebula4 libraries from different views, it handle compressors in a very better way and can achieve dynamic loading (useful for equalizers and ram-hungry presets). The engine was added secretly in amethyst, but still in "off" mode. There will be a new version of amethyst in betatesting today, which will take advantage of it in several ways.
Old 31st March 2016
  #3023
Lives for gear
 
jfjer's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowlou View Post
three paths are ahead of us, after nebula 4 release :

1- Acustica lower its price for acquas to compete with Alex b, Tim p etc
2- Alex b, Tim p etc raise their prices to match Acustica prices.
3- everything become free, because since the beginning, Henry Olonga was the hidden mastermind.
i vote for 3 , but whats most likely will happen is 2
but not completely ,
i think libs made for N4 that behaves like acqas will rise in price because it will take more work,
i still think it will be a lot cheaper than most todays acquas though
my guess is around 50-60 eur for 3rd party "Acqua"

im only guessing but i have heard making acquas is so much more work
its only natural prises will rice

so my advice is getting all existing beauties of the existing neb 3 libs before they get`s upgraded to N4 "acqua" libs for saving money hehe

i must admit MFQ and MMeQ would be incredible tempting to have in acqua form though+many others

luckily we still have plenty of time before 3rd party developers is making existing libs into N4 and not all libs make sense to even be N4 acqua style

so i think it will be a lot of variations in prises depending on how much "aqcua" work new libs need
Old 31st March 2016
  #3024
Lives for gear
 
jfjer's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
yeah, G posted before me hehe,
shame on you G you just ruined my post where i explain acqua is more work

very happy news about Amethyst, very exiting cant wait

it this the reason ivory comp and black is on hold too, to unleash the core 8 power ?

Cheers
Old 31st March 2016
  #3025
Lives for gear
 
zaphod's Avatar
Yes...
Old 31st March 2016
  #3026
Lives for gear
 
doom64's Avatar
Core8? Excellent!
Old 31st March 2016
  #3027
Lives for gear
 
jfjer's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
this is actually excellent
cant wait to try improved Amethyst with a little taste of core8 power

but im very happy ivory comp and Black has been on hold to create the best
versions possible with core8

sometimes a little patience pays off

Nice Acustica
Old 31st March 2016
  #3028
Lives for gear
 
zaphod's Avatar
here a little demo of Amethyst compressor preset running in nebula:

https://app.box.com/s/dz03o9s2ucdi6weybty9f38sklwnjv5s

Drums: original sample
Today: min attack and relase times, very high compression threshold (around -48dB, highest ratio). At those crazy settings you'll hear the infamous "wrong release" reported by several users and happening in our acqua compressors. On difficult sources nebula cannot handle things properly at those attack settings. Increasing release does not help because they would be still erratic and not in time with the song.


tomorrow: same settings and fixed smooth releases.

As you can see the sound is "steady" and released in a musical way. This is "core8". You are welcome.
Old 1st April 2016
  #3029
Lives for gear
 
jfjer's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by zaphod View Post
here a little demo of Amethyst compressor preset running in nebula:

https://app.box.com/s/dz03o9s2ucdi6weybty9f38sklwnjv5s

Drums: original sample
Today: min attack and relase times, very high compression threshold (around -48dB, highest ratio). At those crazy settings you'll hear the infamous "wrong release" reported by several users and happening in our acqua compressors. On difficult sources nebula cannot handle things properly at those attack settings. Increasing release does not help because they would be still erratic and not in time with the song.


tomorrow: same settings and fixed smooth releases.

As you can see the sound is "steady" and released in a musical way. This is "core8". You are welcome.
wow, this is really a drastic change in the best possible way
core8 rules, thanks
Old 1st April 2016
  #3030
Lives for gear
 
Avgatzeblouz's Avatar
Pink

Just read Pink is going out for trial today !!
Topic:
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