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Windows 10 is rolling out... share your experiences here
Old 7th June 2016
  #2371
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Yeah MS is evil. What they do is psychological trickery. I feel fooled. They've taken all my data and sold it. I've been enslaved.

Is that about it? Or can we condense the hyperbole even further?
Well, you can make a mockery out of it. Nothing you say negates his arguments!
Old 7th June 2016
  #2372
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolbass View Post
Well, you can make a mockery out of it. Nothing you say negates his arguments!
Some people don't listen to reason. There are literally thousands of posts in this thread and Pete has been through this before. It's been explained several times. There's just no way repeating that will make someone who has decided that Win10 listens to everything and then sends that off into cyberspace understand that he is wrong.

Hands over ears and eyes. Ignores everything.

It's just nonsensical hyperbole, that's all it is. At this point it's so frickin' tedius and moronic that all it deserves is ridicule. But by all means if someone else has the energy to refute that crap for a millionth time I appreciate it.
Old 7th June 2016
  #2373
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolbass View Post
Well, you can make a mockery out of it. Nothing you say negates his arguments!
The burden of proof is on the original claim. You don't have to disprove something that was just thrown out there. I know Internet Court generally takes the opposite approach and that really wastes everyone's time.

I'll help with at least part of that: we don't sell your data. You are not the product.

Here's the over-arching statement of intent:

Quote:
We are working to earn your trust every day by focusing on six key privacy principles:
  • Control: We will put you in control of your privacy with easy-to-use tools and clear choices.
  • Transparency: We will be transparent about data collection and use so you can make informed decisions.
  • Security: We will protect the data you entrust to us through strong security and encryption.
  • Strong legal protections: We will respect your local privacy laws and fight for legal protection of your privacy as a fundamental human right.
  • No content-based targeting: We will not use your email, chat, files or other personal content to target ads to you.
  • Benefits to you: When we do collect data, we will use it to benefit you and to make your experiences better.

Source: https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-US/
Here's info on Cortana and Search:

Quote:
Does Microsoft or Bing plan to use any of the data that Cortana gathers to sell advertising or otherwise mine information?
No, Cortana doesn’t use the information you share with Cortana to send you targeted ads. Ads may accompany search results that Cortana delivers—just as they do when you do a search on Bing.com.

Does Cortana share data with third party apps or services?
Cortana allows you to connect to services from other companies, such as Uber, for additional personalized experiences using info you shared with the other company.
Cortana, Search, and privacy: FAQ - Microsoft Windows
Here are concrete examples of how we use the collected/transmitted data. It's not too huge and is really worth the read.:
https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-US/windows10privacy

The most interesting part for me, in engineering, is the "Improving Windows" part. People often mischaracterize this, so I'm glad it's spelled out. I know some folks don't like this, and that's fine. But I can't stress how important this is for niche groups like musicians and artists who have unique needs.

Quote:
Improving Windows

To help us decide which services are working well and which need improvement, we pay attention to how people use Windows. We can spot patterns in the problems our customers have, understand the cause, and fix the issues quickly. We can also focus our resources on upgrading the things people use the most, and to improve or even retire those that don’t get used. This data, collectively called 'telemetry', can also help us understand gaps in our services so we can help people use Windows more effectively.

When people choose to turn on location services, we get to improve our database of locations, cell towers, and Wi‑Fi access points. We don’t save any data identifying the person or device from which it was collected.

We use tiny samples of your typing and handwriting info to improve our dictionaries and handwriting recognition for everybody who uses Windows, when you turn on typing, inking, and speech data.

Windows also offers previews to people who sign up for our Windows Insider program, so they can provide us feedback while the product is still in development. By studying how they use Windows, and listening to their feedback, they help us build better products that more people and companies will enjoy.

If you’d like to join our Windows Insider Program and provide us feedback, you can join at Insider.windows.com.
And, again, I can tell you from going through our yearly privacy and ethics training, that it is *extremely* difficult inside Microsoft to use any customer data for much of anything. There are privacy reviews (we have dedicated privacy officers assigned to divisions and have for a long time), there's legal review (same), as well as, in most cases, executive review/approval. If use is approved, there are a lot of steps you have to follow to ensure it's informed consent, it's for the customer's benefit, etc. It's as it should be.


Someone mentioned ads earlier. There's a subtle but very important difference between using your data to show more relevant ads, and selling your data to advertisers. We don't sell your data or use any of your content for ads. And you can control things like Ad Id, cookies, etc.

And yeah, we have a *lot* of privacy info online because we have a *lot* of products and services. Here's the top-level landing page for privacy. It'll redirect you to any country-specific stuff, as I recall.
https://privacy.microsoft.com/


Anyway, whatever your opinion of how we go about getting Windows 10 to customers (I'm not commenting on that), the reason Windows is free and the reason we're pushing is to give partners a solid platform to target for apps, so that we can *all* make money. The fragmented ecosystem makes it extremely difficult.

As to the 200 million number, here are the actual numbers we shared in the keynote of the event I just did in Melbourne (and doing in Toronto this Friday). They're right in front of me, so I'll share.
  • > 300 million *active* Windows 10 devices (reach)
  • > 75 billion hours spent using Windows 10 so far (engagement)
  • > 6 billion questions answered by Cortana (engagement)
  • > 500 new devices designed specifically for Windows 10 (phones, tablets, PCs, etc.) (ecosystem)
  • > 9 billion hours of Gameplay on Windows 10 since launch (engagement)
  • > 5 billion store visits. (reach)
  • 1.2 billion users of MS office (reach)
  • 4 trillion emails sent with Office 365 (trust, capacity)
  • > 40% of Azure revenue is from startups and ISVs (small companies, cost)
  • 2 *trillion* messages processed by Azure IoT per week. (capacity, horsepower)
  • > 85% of Fortune 500 us MS cloud (trust, reliability)

It's marketing stuff for sure. As a user, most of that won't matter to you. As a software developer looking at which operating system to target, and what services to use, every one of those numbers is very important.

Companies building software generally look for a few things:
  1. Are there sufficient users on the platform for me to make money or otherwise meet business goals?
  2. Are there features/capabilities unique to the platform that make sense for my application.
  3. Is the system stable enough so that I do not significantly increase my support burden?

You've all seen examples of dealing with #1 . #2 is about engineering work on hardware and software (bluetooth MIDI, USB-C, Thunderbolt 3) and tend to take longer to materialize. #3 is always the challenge because it involves basically everyone who writes software or makes hardware for Windows.

Pete
Old 7th June 2016
  #2374
Lives for gear
 
wakestyle's Avatar
Pretty clearly, one of Microsoft's new direction's is to start implementing advertisement much like other big company's around, as it should. However I also feel pretty underwhelmed at how poorly they are monetizing Windows itself as well as the Store, it's app store which is fairly infantile.
Several of the new app's seem a step backward in many regards of functionality but at the same time have a lot of potential looking at cloud scaling, especially if you have free wi-fi.
I feel kind of ripped of there is no real way, even if paid for or subscribed to, to avoid ad's when I don't want to. And the same to programs that are 'secretly' installed as 'info-ware', for my benefit, OFC.
Old 7th June 2016
  #2375
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakestyle View Post
Pretty clearly, one of Microsoft's new direction's is to start implementing advertisement much like other big company's around, as it should. However I also feel pretty underwhelmed at how poorly they are monetizing Windows itself as well as the Store, it's app store which is fairly infantile.
Several of the new app's seem a step backward in many regards of functionality but at the same time have a lot of potential looking at cloud scaling, especially if you have free wi-fi.
I feel kind of ripped of there is no real way, even if paid for or subscribed to, to avoid ad's when I don't want to. And the same to programs that are 'secretly' installed as 'info-ware', for my benefit, OFC.
Are you talking ads in apps, ads in the OS, something else?

In apps, it's entirely up to the app developer how they want to use ads or not, and whether or not they want to make it possible to avoid ads by paying for the app. A pretty common model in apps is to pay to remove ads, but not everyone implements it.

If you mean the stock apps, like weather, I get where you're coming from. my recommendation: vote with your feet and don't use the apps that have an experience you don't like. Also, be sure to submit feedback saying why you're moving on.

If you mean the OS, let me know which things you're talking about. I know we surface matching store apps in Cortana search, but as I recall, you can turn that off.

As to the store:

I agree. It needs to be better.

The store infrastructure itself has gotten a lot of internal attention lately. But I know most folks are talking about the selection of apps.

Keep in mind the app problem is not just about attracting users (for market share), it's really about attracting developers, and giving them what they need to be successful.

This is the whole reason the org (PAX - Partner App Experience) I moved to in April was formed. We're now officially part of Windows, under Terry, with an express goal to get more/better apps on Windows by working with partners. (We're not involved in first-party apps at all).

One of the things that is coming is what we referred to as Project Centennial. This is how we can have classic desktop apps listed in the store. Without any code changes, Centennial virtualizes certain IO in the app (registry, app data) using a very high-performance approach to make it so the app can be cleanly installed/uninstalled, and so that it can not hose the system, or rot the registry.
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/down....aspx?id=51691

Being transparent, our phone is not a hugely compelling target for app developers. Given that market share, why would they bother with the UWP/Store app model if the only other real targets are desktop, hololens (not out in numbers yet), IoT, and Surface Hub? Part of this answer is Xbox: one of the big announcements from Build 2016 is that as of Redstone 1 (Anniversary Update) your UWP apps now work on Xbox as well, giving many app developers a good reason to create UWP apps for desktop, and even get mobile for basically free.

Beyond that, we've stepped up how we work with partners to help them target Windows 10. We're also doing a lot of things to make it easier to be successful both with multi-device apps, and with Windows desktop-only apps.

Other groups have tried some of this in the past, but without great success. My former team (we moved over pretty much intact) was tangentially involved in that and has a lot of knowledge as to what failed and why. It's my expectation that we'll be able to do much better here going forward.

Finally, we bought Xamarin earlier this year. This is a set of technologies for building apps cross-platform (iOS, Android, Windows, OSX). We're putting a lot of muscle here to make it even better. Part of the approach here is to build upon the existing momentum from Xamarin as well as to ensure that it can take advantage of everything in Windows 10. Partners then don't need to spin up a whole effort just to target Windows, or iOS, or Android. They start at one, and then the effort for the others is incremental.

Just so you know our thinking on that: when we bought Xamarin, we made it free on Windows 10. But we didn't stop at Windows: we also made it free on OSX.
https://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/f...amarin-vs.aspx

Finally, we also have the ObjectiveC compiler for Windows for porting iOS code, and tools like Mainfold.js which make it easy to use HTML/JS to code for Windows following web standards.

So there's a lot going on. Yeah, it should have all happened around the Windows 8 timeframe, but sometimes it takes a while to learn a lesson.

Pete
Old 7th June 2016
  #2376
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakestyle View Post
... And the same to programs that are 'secretly' installed as 'info-ware', for my benefit, OFC.
Oh, and what things are you referring to here?

Pete
Old 7th June 2016
  #2377
Gear Maniac
 
JimYoung's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post

Being transparent, our phone is not a hugely compelling target for app developers. Given that market share, why would they bother with the UWP/Store app model if the only other real targets are desktop, hololens (not out in numbers yet), IoT, and Surface Hub? Part of this answer is Xbox: one of the big announcements from Build 2016 is that as of Redstone 1 (Anniversary Update) your UWP apps now work on Xbox as well, giving many app developers a good reason to create UWP apps for desktop, and even get mobile for basically free.

Pete
As a developer, UWP apps are a huge deal. My latest app, yMIDI Toolbox, is a universal app and runs on any device running Windows 10. In my case I had to do nothing extra to my code to have it run on everything from phones to the Xbox One. It might even run on a Raspberry Pi, although I never tested it there.

Also, as a developer, the acquisition of Xamarin is big, very big. I've always been a Windows platform developer and now with Xamarin being broadly available I'm going to start porting my apps to other platforms, starting with Android. Before Xamarin it was always going to be a lot of effort maintaining expertise to target multiple platforms. Now I can use the tools and languages that I'm familiar with to achieve this goal.
Old 7th June 2016
  #2378
Lives for gear
 
Analogue Mastering's Avatar
Bashing "M$" is so 1995.
Go Linux, or OSX, But please stop blaming MS for your own incompetence.
Old 7th June 2016
  #2379
Lives for gear
 
monomer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
There's just no way repeating that will make someone who has decided that Win10 listens to everything and then sends that off into cyberspace understand that he is wrong.
Uuh, i hope you know what a network sniffer does as that was what i used to find out that windows sends searches back to bing, even tho i supposedly disabled such things.

You're arguing against facts.
Old 7th June 2016
  #2380
Lives for gear
 
jlaws's Avatar
You're using a network sniffer? Well if it isn't the pot calling the kettle Google. What use could you possibly have for a network sniffer besides spying and stealing souls, like Microsoft? Oh the humanity!!!

I'm just funnin. Lol. But if you have proof, I'd like to see it. That's a pretty bold claim.
Old 7th June 2016
  #2381
Folks have seen the Bing calls using tools like Wireshark, but due to the encryption, do not know what they contain. There's an assumption by some that they contain the search string, but that's just an assumption.

I was looking into this myself, but the insider builds have different behavior, and so I set it aside for a bit.

Pete
Old 7th June 2016
  #2382
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post
Uuh, i hope you know what a network sniffer does as that was what i used to find out that windows sends searches back to bing, even tho i supposedly disabled such things.

You're arguing against facts.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/11672469-post1769.html

?
Old 7th June 2016
  #2383
Nobody is claiming they can't work because of EULAs, telemetry or user data being transmitted. It is fair enough to be critical about this topic. Just because you don't care about information being uploaded does not mean others should.
There is no need to be insulting or condescending if you have another opinion, that counts for both sides.
Just use the ignore function if you think someone is pushing it beyond bottom level interesting.

And I don't think there is a real alternative for most Windows users either, latest in 2020.
Old 7th June 2016
  #2384
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
Nobody is claiming they can't work because of EULAs, telemetry or user data being transmitted. It is fair enough to be critical about this topic. Just because you don't care about information being uploaded does not mean others should.
There is no need to be insulting or condescending if you have another opinion, that counts for both sides.
Just use the ignore function if you think someone is pushing it beyond bottom level interesting.

And I don't think there is a real alternative for most Windows users either, latest in 2020.
If you want to be consistent and neutral in your criticism perhaps you could address all the hyperbole and accusations of MS being "evil"...?
Old 7th June 2016
  #2385
Lives for gear
 
Analogue Mastering's Avatar
Yeah, it's the "evil" and"M$" stuff that's really childish
Regarding the sniffer if you use a cloud based search service, it will index for access on all your devices, nothing shady about that.
Connected devices share data, deal with it.
Old 7th June 2016
  #2386
Lives for gear
 
monomer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
Folks have seen the Bing calls using tools like Wireshark, but due to the encryption, do not know what they contain. There's an assumption by some that they contain the search string, but that's just an assumption.

I was looking into this myself, but the insider builds have different behavior, and so I set it aside for a bit.

Pete
What i could make out is that the encrypted string is exactly as long as the arbitrary strings that i input into the search box... So yeah..

But Pete, don't beat yourself up over this.
Microsoft is a big company with many sides. You can't be expected to fix everything. I really apprecitate your efforts tho. It shows you are one of the good guys.
It just gets to me sometimes how these big corporations get abusive after a while. Even worse, startups these days make it big by making the ignorance and avoidance of law as their primary business model. It's epidemic i think. It has more to do with technocracy culture becoming dominant (i say this as a nerd, go figure). But that's another discussion
Old 7th June 2016
  #2387
I agree that the hyperbole can be a bit childish, but we don't need to be rude here. Different people have different levels of tolerance for how information is moved around/shared/replicated.

But yes, the search history can be shared across your devices. Question is, does this still happen when logged in with only a local account? I need to talk with some teams to see what's up here.

Pete
Old 7th June 2016
  #2388
Lives for gear
 
monomer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Analogue Mastering View Post
Y
Regarding the sniffer if you use a cloud based search service, it will index for access on all your devices, nothing shady about that.
What cloud based search service? The one i'm not using and had deliberately disabled but which magically still kept sending stuff over?
And what do you mean with cloud based indexing anyway? Surely my device knows what i have locally better than any internet server? My computer knows it before this cloud service would ever know about it. I don't need that cloud service. In fact it's a waste of resources (both mine and microsofts) to use it the way it was set up. If i want to search the interwebs i'll use a search engine. Why would the internet need to be searched with bing for a file i have locally? And why would this still have to happen (but hidden from view) when i disable that? There simply is no excuse. Microsoft badly wants to know what i look for on my computer and is willing to hide it from view if neccesary. That has nothing to do with cloud based indexing. (jees, this is turning into another rant.. i'm stopping now...)

Quote:
Connected devices share data, deal with it.
I'll deal with it when i want to in a way i want to and i'll say it if i don't like it. Deal with that.
Old 7th June 2016
  #2389
Lives for gear
 
monomer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
Question is, does this still happen when logged in with only a local account? I need to talk with some teams to see what's up here.
Yeah, fwiw i log in with a local account.
Old 7th June 2016
  #2390
Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post
What cloud based search service? The one i'm not using and had deliberately disabled but which magically still kept sending stuff over?
And what do you mean with cloud based indexing anyway? Surely my device knows what i have locally better than any internet server? My computer knows it before this cloud service would ever know about it. I don't need that cloud service. In fact it's a waste of resources (both mine and microsofts) to use it the way it was set up. If i want to search the interwebs i'll use a search engine. Why would the internet need to be searched with bing for a file i have locally? And why would this still have to happen (but hidden from view) when i disable that? There simply is no excuse. Microsoft badly wants to know what i look for on my computer and is willing to hide it from view if neccesary. That has nothing to do with cloud based indexing. (jees, this is turning into another rant.. i'm stopping now...)
There's nothing useful or actionable for us to gain by knowing what you search for locally. That's why I'm looking into it.

Pete
Old 7th June 2016
  #2391
Lives for gear
 
monomer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
There's nothing useful or actionable for us to gain by knowing what you search for locally. That's why I'm looking into it.

Pete
Oops, i wasn't telling the truth.
The length of the data being sent is not related to the search input. What is sent out (by the searchui.exe process) is a blob of 992 ecrypted bytes. But only when you initiate a search, not when you modify the search term when the panel is already open, apparently.
That's not quite how i remember it, but then again i tweaked a lot of stuff since then and also i might just not remember correctly.
Thinking about this now, it could just be telemetry, tho i opted out of that too.
Old 7th June 2016
  #2392
Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post
Oops, i wasn't telling the truth.
The length of the data being sent is not related to the search input. What is sent out (by the searchui.exe process) is a blob of 992 ecrypted bytes. But only when you initiate a search, not when you modify the search term when the panel is already open, apparently.
That's not quite how i remember it, but then again i tweaked a lot of stuff since then and also i might just not remember correctly.
Thinking about this now, it could just be telemetry, tho i opted out of that too.
Thanks for the follow-up. That's good information.

Pete
Old 7th June 2016
  #2393
Lives for gear
 
TAFKAT's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
If you want to be consistent and neutral in your criticism perhaps you could address all the hyperbole and accusations of MS being "evil"...?
Matt,

Whats your personal experience with W10 , what version do you use, vanilla, tweaked or otherwise ?

Maybe I missed it in the mix, but I haven't seen anything from you re a personal experience only antagonistic attacks and apologetics , which is par for the course for you over all the years I have known you, but what exact value do you think you are bringing to the table here.

Do you think Pete can't hold his own regarding responding to criticism , so you have to come in and play attack dog , do you actually think you are helping Pete or MS by behaving in such a manner ?

Oh and before you think you can drag me into another one of your long drawn out web debates, think again, if you have no personal experience in working with W10 , then the conversation ends here, if you do , then lets hear it.
Old 8th June 2016
  #2394
Lives for gear
 
wakestyle's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
Are you talking ads in apps, ads in the OS, something else?
I'm talking in general, as trend I've noticed a bit of a trend in regards to various tech developments, to say the least, in many regards Microsoft is playing follow-the-leader in terms if advertisement revenue and I highly doubt Microsoft will not try to capitalize on that, going forward, especially with the mobile platforms now. I find it highly likey that there will be many app's pre-installed with future windows versions, such as the July update, which I'm really looking forward to.

Quote:
In apps, it's entirely up to the app developer how they want to use ads or not, and whether or not they want to make it possible to avoid ads by paying for the app. A pretty common model in apps is to pay to remove ads, but not everyone implements it.
Obviously, but what I'm referring to is apps "already installed", or installed from other sources which may have had less-than-honest methods of installing in the first place.
However some stock applications such as Edge and Money, News will be some of the main locations for ad-based revenue.

Quote:
If you mean the OS, let me know which things you're talking about. I know we surface matching store apps in Cortana search, but as I recall, you can turn that off.
Cortana is probably going to be a big portal to future ad-based revenue, I'd suspect, along with Store, News, Edge, Skype...
I don't blame Microsoft at all, that is worth billions every year to competitors in those application class. What I do blame them for is not having better options to use ad-free. Sure, if there is/was a 'free' version of Windows 10 with ads, I'd have no problem with that at all, so long as there was no ad-creep with a proper authorized or Pro version.

Quote:
This is the whole reason the org (PAX - Partner App Experience) I moved to in April was formed. We're now officially part of Windows, under Terry, with an express goal to get more/better apps on Windows by working with partners. (We're not involved in first-party apps at all).
That's is pretty amazing. I really look forward to what you all can accomplish!
I have one concern regarding some of the the 3rd party Store apps, which is the price that Microsoft will take on the sales. I have tried to search for more information but the most information I've found said that Microsoft would take 30% cut on all sales. Is that true or is there other options for developers besides free or full-cost?
Do you think that is smart considering the upside of competing (considering the small mobile market share) with other mobile platforms who may charge much less of a cut to those developers?

Quote:
One of the things that is coming is what we referred to as Project Centennial. This is how we can have classic desktop apps listed in the store. Without any code changes, Centennial virtualizes certain IO in the app (registry, app data) using a very high-performance approach to make it so the app can be cleanly installed/uninstalled, and so that it can not hose the system, or rot the registry.
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/down....aspx?id=51691

Being transparent, our phone is not a hugely compelling target for app developers. Given that market share, why would they bother with the UWP/Store app model if the only other real targets are desktop, hololens (not out in numbers yet), IoT, and Surface Hub? Part of this answer is Xbox: one of the big announcements from Build 2016 is that as of Redstone 1 (Anniversary Update) your UWP apps now work on Xbox as well, giving many app developers a good reason to create UWP apps for desktop, and even get mobile for basically free.

Beyond that, we've stepped up how we work with partners to help them target Windows 10. We're also doing a lot of things to make it easier to be successful both with multi-device apps, and with Windows desktop-only apps.

Other groups have tried some of this in the past, but without great success. My former team (we moved over pretty much intact) was tangentially involved in that and has a lot of knowledge as to what failed and why. It's my expectation that we'll be able to do much better here going forward.

Finally, we bought Xamarin earlier this year. This is a set of technologies for building apps cross-platform (iOS, Android, Windows, OSX). We're putting a lot of muscle here to make it even better. Part of the approach here is to build upon the existing momentum from Xamarin as well as to ensure that it can take advantage of everything in Windows 10. Partners then don't need to spin up a whole effort just to target Windows, or iOS, or Android. They start at one, and then the effort for the others is incremental.

Just so you know our thinking on that: when we bought Xamarin, we made it free on Windows 10. But we didn't stop at Windows: we also made it free on OSX.
https://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/f...amarin-vs.aspx

Finally, we also have the ObjectiveC compiler for Windows for porting iOS code, and tools like Mainfold.js which make it easy to use HTML/JS to code for Windows following web standards.

So there's a lot going on. Yeah, it should have all happened around the Windows 8 timeframe, but sometimes it takes a while to learn a lesson.

Pete
This is really all very amazing news and thank you for the reply.
Old 8th June 2016
  #2395
Preinstalled apps: I get it.

We have some in the OS, and the large software vendors can do the preinstalled app thing still, as I recall, when you have a Windows image included with the PC. If you buy from the Microsoft Store, there are only the ones that come with the base image. There aren't any sideways/nefarious ways to get apps into the image unless you're building your own image, or buying one from an untrusted source.

I can't see a single solution (paid/free/ads/etc.) pleasing everyone, so I hope we have options.

As to the rest, it's hard for me to speculate about what we might or might not do, especially when it comes to store revenue and more expensive desktop apps.

Off to Canada early in the morning for next leg of our Build Tour. (The first demo of the day is mine, and it's showing how to use the Bash shell on Windows (using Windows Subsystem for Linux. This always mixes the room up right away<g>).
https://toronto.build2016.com/

Chat with you all again soon.

Pete
Old 8th June 2016
  #2396
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
There is no need to be insulting or condescending if you have another opinion, that counts for both sides.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
If you want to be consistent and neutral in your criticism perhaps you could address all the hyperbole and accusations of MS being "evil"...?
Base covered.
Old 8th June 2016
  #2397
Lives for gear
 
monomer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
and it's showing how to use the Bash shell on Windows
Bash on top of windows.. That stuff is just.... weird....

Have fun!
Old 9th June 2016
  #2398
Here for the gear
 

First of all windows 10 OS is not a friendly user so it's typical to use, as my point of view windows 7 is the best and evergreen os to use.
Old 9th June 2016
  #2399
I remember that for a long time after Windows 7 came out, lots of people hated it, saying XP was so much better.

Pete
Old 9th June 2016
  #2400
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
I remember that for a long time after Windows 7 came out, lots of people hated it, saying XP was so much better.

Pete
Ditto!
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