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Windows 10 is rolling out... share your experiences here Audio Interfaces
Old 14th April 2019
  #6961
Gear Nut
 

That's exactly what it states.

The latest supported Win10 Version for Cubase 8 is 1607 Windows 10. As you can read here:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/...cle-fact-sheet

This Windows 10 Version has no support anymore. End of service for Enterprise and Education Editions = April 9 2019 even...


Windows 10, version 1809
Release date: November 13, 2018
End of service for Home, Pro, and Pro for Workstation Editions:
May 12, 2020
End of service for Enterprise and Education Editions:
May 11, 2021

As I wrote. Win 7 Pro had a lifecycle of about 10 years. The Windows 10 Pro Editions have a lifecycle (the link is above) of 1,5 years.

This will directly affect the environment and, of course, force people to trash computers that would be still perfectly ok if a long time support OS was there...
Old 14th April 2019
  #6962
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by marco_well View Post
That's exactly what it states.
No it doesn't. You wrote "will not be able to run it" and that isn't what it says.
Old 14th April 2019
  #6963
Gear Nut
 

The release date of Windows 7 Service Pack 1 was February 16, 2011.

The end of its lifecycle is January 14, 2020. This is more than 8 years and 10 months.

The fact that Windows 10 Pro editions will have a lifecycle of about 1,5 years generates an immense workload for software developers and definitely harms the environment in a direct way. People will not have the choice to stay on a long time OS like Win7 or Win8.1 in future since their software will not be supported on these OS anymore, etc...

Hardware will have to be replaced earlier as a direct consequence of this upgrade policy which ...guess... directly harms the environment and forces people to trash computers earlier...

The ordinary citizen does not understand the meaning of such upgrades and for sure does not downgrade to an older Windows. He just presses the "upgrade" button and if his notebook is too slow he throws it away and buys a new one...


--> Microsoft please plan responsibly and release a Win 10 Pro with a long lifecycle for the "ordinary citizen". Help to, at least "try to", reduce the impact of the throwaway society on the environment a bit!
Old 15th April 2019
  #6964
Lives for gear
 

Try to stay focused.

You wrote something that isn't supported by the sources you gave, and that something can be grossly misleading. Actually, I think it is grossly misleading. So, it would be better if you didn't write that and just said something along the lines of "Oh, sorry, yeah that was probably a bit hyperbolic" and moved on.

As for the rest;

Quote:
Originally Posted by marco_well View Post
People will not have the choice to stay on a long time OS like Win7 or Win8.1 in future since their software will not be supported on these OS anymore, etc...

Hardware will have to be replaced earlier as a direct consequence of this upgrade policy
You don't know this. It's only your speculation.

It's perfectly possible that in the future (current) hardware will run those future OS updates just fine because the increases in processing requirements aren't as great as you say they are.

As a matter of fact, Windows 10 came out in mid 2015, so we're already looking at close to 4 years of it existing. That's half the time of Windows 7sp1. So the question is just how many users have had to upgrade in these past 4 years, especially compared to how many Windows 7 users had to upgrade their then current hardware during its lifecycle... because;

The question is also not only if it's likely that the OS will make the hardware of four years ago insufficient six years from now, but more importantly if the software running on the OS will make it necessary.

In my case there was absolutely no way I could justify running the latest version of Nuendo on my previous machine which indeed ran Windows 7 and was assembled about 9 years ago. Why? Not because of Windows 10; Despite Windows 7 still working Nuendo and iZotope RX are now way more demanding and require a new computer. The realistic scenario is that we keep upgrading software that runs on the OS and that newer software does more and uses more resources.

(although to MS' credit we should acknowledge UWP if we're looking for a smaller OS footprint - but nobody will do that exactly for the reasons I just gave, so..)

Quote:
Originally Posted by marco_well View Post
The ordinary citizen does not understand the meaning of such upgrades and for sure does not downgrade to an older Windows. He just presses the "upgrade" button and if his notebook is too slow he throws it away and buys a new one...
The average user isn't helped by you saying some software won't run when you have absolutely zero idea if it will. There's a huge difference between "it runs" and "the OS is supported". The difference isn't even close. Don't confuse these "ordinary citizens" by just tossing all these different things together and pretending that the sky is falling along with the destruction of the environment.
Old 15th April 2019
  #6965
Lives for gear
 
TAFKAT's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by marco_well View Post
The release date of Windows 7 Service Pack 1 was February 16, 2011.

The end of its lifecycle is January 14, 2020. This is more than 8 years and 10 months.

The fact that Windows 10 Pro editions will have a lifecycle of about 1,5 years generates an immense workload for software developers and definitely harms the environment in a direct way. People will not have the choice to stay on a long time OS like Win7 or Win8.1 in future since their software will not be supported on these OS anymore, etc...
This is part of the Elephant in the Room I have been mentioning in recent posts, its good to see Steinberg specifically list versions of Windows 10 they regard as supported per Cubase version. As they have for OSX for quite a while.

I applaud them for bringing this front and center.

They can now be selective and rightfully so as there is no such thing as a single "Windows 10" regards support. They do not have the resources to be qualifying the earlier versions of Cubase every 6 months due to the WaaS treadmill.

Thats not saying it will not work, simply from a logistical stand point , they can't offer "official" support.

While at the same time fully support Windows 7, simply because they aren't navigating a shifting codebase every six months, as it has a consistency to be able to draw from, much like W10 LTSB !

That alone highlights what myself and a few others have been attempting to get across for years , Windows "10" has to be looked upon the same as OSX . point revisions , no developer can place their releases under a W10 umbrella, they have to start to list specific iteration that they have at least qualified on.


Last edited by TAFKAT; 15th April 2019 at 03:42 AM.. Reason: Amended typo*
Old 15th April 2019
  #6966
Lives for gear
 

I agree Vin.
Old 15th April 2019
  #6967
Windows 7 SP1 end of mainstream support was January 2015. The end of *extended* support (which you pay for as a business/government) is 2020. Windows 7 w/o service packs ended support in 2013. Windows 8.1 fell out of mainstream support last year.
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/...cle-fact-sheet

Definitions of mainstream and extended support are here:
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/14085

But yes, for non-enterprise/Edu users on the semi-annual cycle, the 5+5 approach we used to have has changed to 18 months, partially because the upgrades are free. Enterprise and Edu have 30 months. Enterprise LTSC/LTSB has 10 years, broken down into roughly 5+5 (5 support, 5 paid).

As for looking at Windows 10 like OSX/macOS and dealing with specific point releases/versions: that's a good approach and way to think of it. "Windows 10" is more brand than indication of version, IMO.

In the end, it doesn't really matter how long Microsoft supports something; it depends on how long third-party hardware and software manufacturers do. Sometimes they follow MS lead, some times they do not.

As for the rest: not commenting on that. Just want to make sure we have the right dates/durations/definitions here.

Pete
Old 15th April 2019
  #6968
Gear Maniac
people throwing around terms like "ordinary citizens" are at least suspect if not even right-wing trolling, together with all the other fear mongering and plain BS best to ignore
Old 15th April 2019
  #6969
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
In the end, it doesn't really matter how long Microsoft supports something; it depends on how long third-party hardware and software manufacturers do. Sometimes they follow MS lead, some times they do not.
Actually what the culprit here is that MS changed its release strategy from a long term code base into severe revisions every 6 months, which *forces* developers to drop support for their products earlier than they used to, as - also from our experience - it is a PITA to check products on 1507, 1511, 1607, 1703, 1709, 1803, 1809 & 1903, waiting for 1909...
There are severe changes under the hood sometimes, something definitely has changed performance & compatibility wise after 1511, for example, even though it is not directly notable for 99% of the users.
Old 15th April 2019
  #6970
Lives for gear
 
ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by marco_well View Post
...Microsoft seems not to care about the environment...
I know. I heard that all of their cloud server sites run on coal power...
Old 15th April 2019
  #6971
Lives for gear
 
TAFKAT's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
Actually what the culprit here is that MS changed its release strategy from a long term code base into severe revisions every 6 months, which *forces* developers to drop support for their products earlier than they used to, as - also from our experience - it is a PITA to check products on 1507, 1511, 1607, 1703, 1709, 1803, 1809 & 1903, waiting for 1909..
Yep, and to make it even messier, as noted I commend Steinberg for listing specific Cubase/W10 version cutoffs that they will officially support, but in the same instance they are also stating for C10 for example, that they are supporting every version of W10 right up to 1809.

2 edged sword.

What are the chances they qualified C10 on 1507, 1511, 1607, 1703, 1709, 1803, 1809 ?

Zero !!

They need to be even more specific re qualified W10 versions.

The other challenge is do they develop on a clean install at each revision, or an updated build, because the 2 can behave differently.

EITR


Last edited by TAFKAT; 15th April 2019 at 10:49 PM.. Reason: *Amended for clarity
Old 15th April 2019
  #6972
Gear Addict
 
throbert's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
I know. I heard that all of their cloud server sites run on coal power...
I sent them a fart in a bottle and some matches.
Old 15th April 2019
  #6973


Quote:
Originally Posted by markusschloesser View Post
people throwing around terms like "ordinary citizens" are at least suspect if not even right-wing trolling, together with all the other fear mongering and plain BS best to ignore
Old 16th April 2019
  #6974
Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
I know. I heard that all of their cloud server sites run on coal power...
I've been assuming that "environment" here is a bad translation of "community" or "ecosystem".

I could be wrong.

Pete
Old 16th April 2019
  #6975
Lives for gear
 
ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
I've been assuming that "environment" here is a bad translation of "community" or "ecosystem".

I could be wrong.

Pete
My assumption as well. At least I didn't mention Microsoft's exploitation of dolphins in its data centers...
Old 16th April 2019
  #6976
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
I've been assuming that "environment" here is a bad translation of "community" or "ecosystem".

I could be wrong.

Pete
I think you're wrong. If you somehow manage to wade through all the nonsense (don't bother) you'll see that there are continually references to actual technology relative to the environment, not "community". That's why it's idiotic.

Things like;

"environmental-friendly technology"

" forced to buy new hardware and throw 2nd and 3rd generation i5 and i7 computers and notebooks away"

" force people to trash computers"

" forces people to trash computers earlier..."

" the impact of the throwaway society on the environment"

…. it's just nonsense....
Old 16th April 2019
  #6977
Lives for gear
 
ponzi's Avatar
Every time I do the update, that's like 30 gig into the bit bucket. Multiply that by millions of users and where does all that go--that's right, into our oceans and streams...
Old 16th April 2019
  #6978
Lives for gear
 
ponzi's Avatar
Switching back to actual substance, what are the chances that one of these win10 updates actually breaks cubase and requires an upgrade? I think pretty small. MS is not changing the APIs or anything fundamental, just adding functionality and tuning. Sure, there is the need to re-run the auth app or some such, but nothing requiring cubase to issue a patch.
Old 16th April 2019
  #6979
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
My assumption as well. At least I didn't mention Microsoft's exploitation of dolphins in its data centers...
I wonder how old Sigma is doing these days...
Old 17th April 2019
  #6980
Lives for gear
 

Though he did not state it well, the fact is that ANYTHING that uses energy in its production, use, or disposal, likely pollutes. Something to be mindful of when companies / industries choose more wasteful practices for profit.
Old 17th April 2019
  #6981
Lives for gear
 
ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassmankr View Post
Though he did not state it well, the fact is that ANYTHING that uses energy in its production, use, or disposal, likely pollutes. Something to be mindful of when companies / industries choose more wasteful practices for profit.
Oh, why must the noble Dolphin suffer? Those wise and compassionate creatures who's only desire is to spread peace and love throughout the world...

Old 17th April 2019
  #6982
Lives for gear
 

I believe I read or heard that the next feature update will give us the option of deferring new features up to 18 months. That should be great for those who want security updates only as it increases the delay by 6 months.

Perhaps Pete can confirm. This should be in the 2019 May release.
Old 19th April 2019
  #6983
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
[Note: Works on Pro, does not work on Home]
Here's how to stop automatic updates on Windows 10:
  • Run gpedit.msc "Edit Group Policy"
  • Computer Configuration > Windows Components > Windows Update
  • Select "Configure automatic updates" and set it to disabled. You'll get notifications, but not an automatic update.

Our update team has said that this is the supported/expected way in Windows to disable updates.
I'm doing a new computer build and contemplating what W10 version to get... Is there a consensus to what edition is most suited for DAW work? (This has probably been debated to death in the previous 233 pages, so sorry for asking for a summary... )

Should I go with Windows 10 Pro (and disable updates according to Pete's instructions above) or should I go with Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC 2019?
Old 19th April 2019
  #6984
Lives for gear
 
JulenJVM's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
Oh, why must the noble Dolphin suffer? Those wise and compassionate creatures who's only desire is to spread peace and love throughout the world...

The poster didn't chose the best words to express himself, but we all understood his point, and the person you have quoted has explained it in a more understandable manner. You could have saved yourself the joke, the problem is serious and there is room for debate.
Old 19th April 2019
  #6985
Gear Addict
 
throbert's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by blueflake View Post
I'm doing a new computer build and contemplating what W10 version to get... Is there a consensus to what edition is most suited for DAW work? (This has probably been debated to death in the previous 233 pages, so sorry for asking for a summary... )

Should I go with Windows 10 Pro (and disable updates according to Pete's instructions above) or should I go with Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC 2019?
LTSB here, a lot less PITA, Pro drove me back to 7, although I do use Classic Start Menu
and Old New Explorer. Keep my connection metered and turn off WUpdate unless I need
to update. If an app is available in portable I use it, they take a little longer to boot but
keeps the OS uncluttered and no problems if I decide to do a version upgrade.

Last edited by throbert; 19th April 2019 at 06:48 PM..
Old 19th April 2019
  #6986
Lives for gear
 

Does anyone know when update for FLS slot allocation ceiling will be released? I know that insider preview was out since January but haven’t heard any news since then. Also, is there similar update for Win Server 2019?
Old 19th April 2019
  #6987
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Beast View Post
Does anyone know when update for FLS slot allocation ceiling will be released? I know that insider preview was out since January but haven’t heard any news since then. Also, is there similar updates for Win Server 2019?
The update is called the May 2019 update now, and will be out late next month. After the last major release had issues, the team decided that this one would spend more time in testing and release preview.

Server is on a different schedule. No idea there, but it will be later.

This same blog post talks about changes coming regarding updates.

Improving the Windows 10 update experience with control, quality and transparency | Windows Experience Blog

Pete
Old 19th April 2019
  #6988
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
The update is called the May 2019 update now, and will be out late next month. After the last major release had issues, the team decided that this one would spend more time in testing and release preview.

Server is on a different schedule. No idea there, but it will be later.

This same blog post talks about changes coming regarding updates.

Improving the Windows 10 update experience with control, quality and transparency | Windows Experience Blog

Pete
Thank you Pete,

Is it possible to test drive it now?
Old 20th April 2019
  #6989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Beast View Post
Thank you Pete,

Is it possible to test drive it now?
Not the final version. You can get previews through the Windows Insider Program. Some have also said you can get previews using the media creation tool; I haven't tested that.

This PC I'm using right now is currently running 1903 build 18362.53. It has the FLS update in it, but is not yet 100% baked otherwise.

Pete
Old 20th April 2019
  #6990
Lives for gear
 
ponzi's Avatar
Thanks Pete. One thing I noticed in that write-up was a reference to devices reaching end of life. I was wondering what that meant. I hope its not some notion that a device which runs windows 10 today may some day be declared to be un-supported and someone would be forced to upgrade their hardware. To the extent there get to be devices that windows 10 has a compelling reason not to support anymore, I hope that microsoft would adopt an apple like approach where the machine can simply be stuck where it is at and continue operating as before, only lacking the ability to update windows.

Reading this, and other information I have received, I understand that microsoft does invest quite a bit of time and money working to provide users with a good windows experience, even though it is not always optimized to our tiny use case (in relative terms) daw work. I have asked my betters to send me to Ignite this year--not sure if they will approve it. If so, and you go to Ignite, hope to have a chance to say hi.
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