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Windows 10 is rolling out... share your experiences here Audio Interfaces
Old 14th June 2018
  #6151
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT View Post
Well in respect to Win7 SP1 , we are talking about a window of deployment of 7.5 years and counting without an ID change, so its not anywhere near the same.

You're talking about a single version though. It's the same, so the ID doesn't change.

The difference, like I said, is that you get a new version every 6 months now. The IDs don't change on updates, just upgrades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT View Post
Such as with the advertising ID and/or any other targeted telemetry , or is that changed every six months as well ?
Similar to iOS, the user can control the advertising ID, and reset it any time they want. That's why it exists.

Processor serials (when they existed), built-in computed IDs etc. are not under the control of the user. Many people misunderstand the ad id and think it's something evil. But it's something both Apple and Microsoft (and later, Google) have done specifically to help stop advertisers from using the more persistent IDs and mechanisms they were using.

Copy protection, of course, is a different animal, and will always try to do unsupported things to stay ahead of software pirates. I'm not a fan.

Edit: I didn't answer about telemetry. That's anonymized by default, but I have never looked into exactly how it is.

Pete
Old 14th June 2018
  #6152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
You're talking about a single version though. It's the same, so the ID doesn't change.

The difference, like I said, is that you get a new version every 6 months now. The IDs don't change on updates, just upgrades.
You keep missing or evading the point , where as in the past we didn't need to navigate this system ID run around for the life of the deployment , now because MS are insisting on deploying a so called new version every 6 months , it has now become a problem.

Quote:
Many people misunderstand the ad id and think it's something evil. But it's something both Apple and Microsoft (and later, Google) have done specifically to help stop advertisers from using the more persistent IDs and mechanisms they were using.
So the advertising ID is actually to stop targeted advertising, O.K, interesting, all the while a vanilla install of W10 will show targeted ads even on a lock screen. So its more to stop selected targeted ads , and only allow MS qualified or sanctioned targeted advertising ?

Re Telemetry, isn't the advertising ID telemetry ?

Old 14th June 2018
  #6153
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ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT View Post
You keep missing or evading the point , where as in the past we didn't need to navigate this system ID run around for the life of the deployment , now because MS are insisting on deploying a so called new version every 6 months , it has now become a problem.

Its been fully explained. This is an internal microsoft identifier and microsoft has advised third party software vendors not to use it in their copy protection schemes as it can change during the life of the computer.

The vendor uses this identifier with its documented twice yearly change, against the advice of microsoft.

How does microsoft own the problem of third party vendors imprudently using a non-permanent system identifier?

He has acknowledged this is a problem which is why microsoft tells developers not to use this for copy protection.

Since when do software companies have an entitlement for microsoft to maintain a system id for their copy protection schemes?
Old 14th June 2018
  #6154
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Synthbuilder's Avatar
Patch Tuesday's KB4284835 works fine on my laptop but caused my somewhat ageing i5 big box PC to shut down very very slowly and stopped my network 'card' from working. Whether the two issues are related I'm not sure. Uninstalling said update makes the PC work again.

Tony
Old 14th June 2018
  #6155
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TAFKAT's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
Its been fully explained. This is an internal microsoft identifier and microsoft has advised third party software vendors not to use it in their copy protection schemes as it can change during the life of the computer.
I know what it is, I don't need you to dictate or detail it. You are missing the point I made that it isn't anything close to the same as the past as Pete inferred.

As to the rest , where did I mention anything regards MS needing to pander to developers or otherwise, get off the soap box and save your apologetics.
Old 14th June 2018
  #6156
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ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT View Post
I know what it is, I don't need you to dictate or detail it. You are missing the point I made that it isn't anything close to the same as the past as Pete inferred.

As to the rest , where did I mention anything regards MS needing to pander to developers or otherwise, get off the soap box and save your apologetics.
Just pointing out that your incessant harping on this is getting tiresome. Get off your own soap box!
Old 16th June 2018
  #6157
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT View Post
I know what it is, I don't need you to dictate or detail it. You are missing the point I made that it isn't anything close to the same as the past as Pete inferred.

As to the rest , where did I mention anything regards MS needing to pander to developers or otherwise, get off the soap box and save your apologetics.
My point was that it works the same, but it's more of an issue for people now because of the twice yearly updates.

But it's functionally the same, and our advice not to use it as a persistent ID is still the same.

Advertising ID, like I said, is a standard way to provide advertisers what they want, but let users remain in control. Prior to that, they were doing all sorts of things that were not good privacy practices, and were not easily controlled by the user. There's a lot of FUD out there about advertising ID, but it's mostly borne of ignorance about what it is, and why Apple, Microsoft, and Google have standardized on the approach. We introduced it in Windows 8 or 8.1. I forget which.

In the end, on Windows, the Advertising ID really only impacts people using Store apps. Anecdotally, this community is not a heavy user of store apps, at least not specifically for music creation. If you have an iPhone, iPad, or Android device, however, knowing how the ad id works and what it's used for can be useful knowledge.

Pete
Old 18th June 2018
  #6158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
My point was that it works the same, but it's more of an issue for people now because of the twice yearly updates.

But it's functionally the same, and our advice not to use it as a persistent ID is still the same.
We are going around in circles !

If its an easy and simple alteration, why haven't the developers done it previously ?

If the request was made back at W7/W8, obviously the software developers didn't place it on a high priority, and why would they when it lasted the life of the deployment !

So what is the alternative for the software developers to be able to copy protect their software via a system algorithm over a hardware device , like iLok/elicenser. Which btw W10 randomly breaks as well.

Waves NIC algo has already been mentioned, which is also a PITA and can be easily tripped by simply adding a secondary NIC (WiFi USB dongle to momentarily connect if need be ) , let alone a motherboard change if you have a failure. Some iLok licenses are also sensitive to changes with NIC's.

Quote:
There's a lot of FUD out there about advertising ID, but it's mostly borne of ignorance about what it is, and why Apple, Microsoft, and Google have standardized on the approach. We introduced it in Windows 8 or 8.1. I forget which.
Sure, the trick is to filter the wheat from the chaff, of course Apple, Google and MS always have end users best interest at heart when introducing policy.

Quote:
If you have an iPhone, iPad, or Android device, however, knowing how the ad id works and what it's used for can be useful knowledge.
The most useful knowledge for many is to learn how to disable it , no matter what platform.

Old 18th June 2018
  #6159
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT View Post
We are going around in circles !
Not really. I agreed with you that frequency of change is why folks are noticing it (and being inconvenienced by it) now, and explained the technical reason it's actually the same behavior as before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT View Post
If its an easy and simple alteration, why haven't the developers done it previously ?
No one wants to change how their software works. Even if you tell developers that "hey, this is going to break at some point, stop using it", they'll ignore you until too late. Example: Apple telling developers for the better part of a decade to stop using QuickTime. It was only when they (temporarily) made it impossible to install on Windows that developers finally changed it.

We've had to do some painful things in Windows over the years as well. You tell developers for 5 years that you're going to change X but they don't change their software. Finally, you change X and then folks flip because their software no longer works correctly. Makes it super hard to move forward.

Anyway, software changes cost money. No one bothers until they absolutely have to. Another great example for us older folks is Y2K. There was PLENTY of warning (it was a fixed point in time!), yet folks were scrambling up until midnight that night to get the fixes in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT View Post
If the request was made back at W7/W8, obviously the software developers didn't place it on a high priority, and why would they when it lasted the life of the deployment !

So what is the alternative for the software developers to be able to copy protect their software via a system algorithm over a hardware device , like iLok/elicenser. Which btw W10 randomly breaks as well.

Waves NIC algo has already been mentioned, which is also a PITA and can be easily tripped by simply adding a secondary NIC (WiFi USB dongle to momentarily connect if need be ) , let alone a motherboard change if you have a failure. Some iLok licenses are also sensitive to changes with NIC's.

IIRC, this is why those copy protection devices/schemes break.

What should they use? Difficult to make a recommendation as you don't want a persistent way to identify a user/machine. Again, privacy consideration. So I don't have an answer there other than to stop using this type of copy protection.

Since the beginning of software, copy protection has always been a pain. I remember on the C64 when they used to write to the out-of-range sectors on disks, and then would slam the drive head over (causing 1541 misalignments over time) to check that sector when the application loaded up. For those developers, it was more important to avoid pirating than it was to ensure they didn't screw up your expensive disk drive.

Or how about that CD/DVD (Celine Dione, IIRC) that would screw up your PC because they installed a rootkit on it for copy protection.

I'm of the personal opinion that copy protection does no one any good. The big pirates always get around it and post the stuff online anyway. I get what companies want to do it, but it's a losing battle that seems to only hurt legit users.

Dongles are annoying, but they're actually a pretty good approach. If it's there, you're good. If it's not, you're not. It's when you move from the hardware lock to a software one, or the hardware one is also tied to a machine instead of floating, that it gets messy.

Pete
Old 18th June 2018
  #6160
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TAFKAT's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
What should they use? Difficult to make a recommendation as you don't want a persistent way to identify a user/machine. Again, privacy consideration. So I don't have an answer there other than to stop using this type of copy protection.
Its a catch 22 tho Pete , some moved and/or are moving from hardware devices like iLok to system ID because end users made it pretty clear they didn't like the established hardware protection ( especially after that iLok meltdown a few years ago ), and are now scrambling again due this recent change with W10.

Quote:
I'm of the personal opinion that copy protection does no one any good. The big pirates always get around it and post the stuff online anyway. I get what companies want to do it, but it's a losing battle that seems to only hurt legit users.
Yep, but imagine the landscape if there was none in place at all.

Quote:
Dongles are annoying, but they're actually a pretty good approach. If it's there, you're good. If it's not, you're not. It's when you move from the hardware lock to a software one, or the hardware one is also tied to a machine instead of floating, that it gets messy.
Only if the hardware dongle doesn't fault , and when it does, more minefields. I have had multiple iLoks fail over the years, touch wood no eLicensers as yet. I still prefer system locked software, with multiple licenses ( in case of system failures and/or fair use ) , but then we are back to point 1.

Old 19th June 2018
  #6161
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Acid Mitch's Avatar
 

All you have to do is make sure your hardware has relevant drivers before updating.
That's how it's always been and isn't new to Windows 8 or 10.
Old 19th June 2018
  #6162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acid Mitch View Post
All you have to do is make sure your hardware has relevant drivers before updating.
That's how it's always been and isn't new to Windows 8 or 10.
Sorry, to me (and I imagine to a whole lot of musicians) that seems like a very stressful strategy. I might know to look for a driver for my graphics card, my printer, my interface, oh yeah, my synth, but I have zero confidence there aren't other "hidden" drivers I'm not aware of that will cause immense pain if not replaced before updating.

And I can't imagine that 90-95%'of the computer-using population knows what a driver even is!

Are you sure the drivers have to be replaced *before* updating Windows? I thought that was one of the things W10 did during the update process ... no preparatory driver updates by the user needed?
Old 19th June 2018
  #6163
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Acid Mitch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexis View Post

Are you sure the drivers have to be replaced *before* updating Windows?
No, you make sure they are available before changing the os and then install them after changing the os.
That way you don't waste time installing a new OS only to find your hardware doesn't support it.
It:s not stressful. If you find that it is then get some one else to do it for you. There are no hidden drivers. This is how it's always been, for Windows, Mac and Linux.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexis View Post
I thought that was one of the things W10 did during the update process ... no preparatory driver updates by the user needed?
Windows update does not update all drivers. Some of them you still need to get from the manufacturers website.
Old 19th June 2018
  #6164
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexis View Post
And I can't imagine that 90-95%'of the computer-using population knows what a driver even is!
Then they shouldn't consider performing an update themselves. Updating always bears a small risk that some component is incompatible or is EOL with outdated drivers. That is valid for every platform out there.
Old 19th June 2018
  #6165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexis View Post
And I can't imagine that 90-95%'of the computer-using population knows what a driver even is!
We're probably just a fraction of the remaining 5% though. I think the recommendation arguably applies more to us than to the rest.
Old 20th June 2018
  #6166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
Then they shouldn't consider performing an update themselves. Updating always bears a small risk that some component is incompatible or is EOL with outdated drivers. That is valid for every platform out there.
I updated my phone and it bricked itself back at the start of the year. It's not even a windows one...
Old 20th June 2018
  #6167
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
Then they shouldn't consider performing an update themselves. Updating always bears a small risk that some component is incompatible or is EOL with outdated drivers. That is valid for every platform out there.
And there is also a small risk that a brick will fall from the ceiling and crash into your hardware when you click “update”.

Yeah, that was farfetched. But the point is that you can’t safeguard against everything. For *really* mission critical stuff it might be reasonable to go through every driver. For most of us an image or even just a roll back is far more reasonable. Imo.
Old 21st June 2018
  #6168
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Acid Mitch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedberg View Post
.

Yeah, that was farfetched. But the point is that you can’t safeguard against everything. For *really* mission critical stuff it might be reasonable to go through every driver.
For "really" mission critical stuff you leave it alone and don't update anything until the mission is over.
Old 21st June 2018
  #6169
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedberg View Post
And there is also a small risk that a brick will fall from the ceiling and crash into your hardware when you click “update”.

Yeah, that was farfetched. But the point is that you can’t safeguard against everything. For *really* mission critical stuff it might be reasonable to go through every driver. For most of us an image or even just a roll back is far more reasonable. Imo.
I think my remark is misinterpreted.
It is not about the chance something goes wrong, but about people who don't know what a driver is. They shouldn't care whether they use W7/W8 or W10 and perform an upgrade, unless there is a reason regarding compatibility with applications they use (Adobe Cloud comes to mind). Most people who have no clue do not upgrade anyway as they can't be bothered.
Old 24th June 2018
  #6170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
... Most people who have no clue do not upgrade anyway as they can't be bothered.
My post was referring to the mandatory upgrades within W10. My main point was that "normal" people (not like the 0.5% who post here) wake up in the morning with their printer or scanner not working because W10 messed up the driver during the update.


What kind of customer service is that?
Old 24th June 2018
  #6171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexis View Post
wake up in the morning with their printer or scanner not working because W10 messed up the driver during the update.
Or wireless mouse and keyboard. That's definitely been a challenge. Thank god I kept a wired pair in case of an emergency. Always thought it'd be because of a hardware failure, not MS. But hey! "Microsoft is here to make your life easier."
Old 24th June 2018
  #6172
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

I run bog-standard w10 home and have only had a driver problem once since the day Windows 10 came out. That's far better than my experiences from XP up to 8.1.
Old 24th June 2018
  #6173
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I'm noticing that even though the Intel ssd problem with 1803 was solved a few weeks ago, Update hasn't tried updating my system from 1709 to 1803. On my Win10 home system that is.

It's been updating some stuff and Defender, but hasn't tried to do 1803. Which in a way, is okay with me. Maybe the update service said to itself after six failed 1803 attempts (last one being on May 16)... "screw it, this computer gets a permanent pass"
Old 24th June 2018
  #6174
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ponzi's Avatar
After all this discussion and reflecting a bit on my experience, I will say that I am not aware of any value added I have received from a couple of years of these massive Microsoft bi-annual updates--I can only take some satisfaction in not being done in by them. Sadly, it is necessary to keep updating the anti virus software more frequently due to the regrettable fact that the OS is so vulnerable to viruses. So while I have stated they are manageable, in no way do I think they are something I would do if I had a reasonable choice. I guess in some way over a long enough time horizon, it MAY be preferable to new versions of windows that require/allow software vendors to charge for compatibility granting updates--if that is how things develop in the long term.

But in no way regretting my switch over from apple land--they have their own perhaps different issues.
Old 25th June 2018
  #6175
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexis View Post
My post was referring to the mandatory upgrades within W10. My main point was that "normal" people (not like the 0.5% who post here) wake up in the morning with their printer or scanner not working because W10 messed up the driver during the update.


What kind of customer service is that?
Ah, that makes sense. I thought your original comment was based on the post where someone upgraded manually from 7 to 8.

Yeah, I never liked the pushed upgrades. Great on Xbox, but it will cause collateral damage on a few percent of Windows systems, which is probably not that high, but given the actual amount of Windows systems in the field, it is a frightening amount of units that may have issues.
Old 25th June 2018
  #6176
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Acid Mitch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexis View Post


What kind of customer service is that?
It's the same customer service Windows users have had since Windows 2000, where automatic update would automatically download new drivers.

Is it really Microsofts fault or is it because some vendors aren't sticking to standards or something ?
I only experienced wrong drivers being downloaded with certain devices, like an M Audio sound card I used to have.

Last edited by Acid Mitch; 25th June 2018 at 11:29 AM..
Old 26th June 2018
  #6177
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TREMORS's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoodle View Post
I'm noticing that even though the Intel ssd problem with 1803 was solved a few weeks ago, Update hasn't tried updating my system from 1709 to 1803. On my Win10 home system that is.

It's been updating some stuff and Defender, but hasn't tried to do 1803. Which in a way, is okay with me. Maybe the update service said to itself after six failed 1803 attempts (last one being on May 16)... "screw it, this computer gets a permanent pass"
My Win10 Home install failed to update to 1709 42(!) times yet continued to try and update on every reboot only to fail and roll back. Had to use the media tool and fresh install
Old 29th June 2018
  #6178
Windows 10 64bit, Fall Creators (1803) update bug ?

see post here: Link
Old 12th July 2018
  #6179
Windows 10 - CPU Hogs - Rant

What's up with all these services running in the background taking up CPU and Disk access resources :

1. .Net Optimisation Services - up to 17% of CPU

2. Antimalware Service Executable - up to 15% of CPU

3. Not the fault of Bill Gates - Kaspersky Antivirus - up to 25% of CPU

Then my pesky up to 2.3 Ghz dual core laptop throttles permanently down to 1.6 Ghz.

With an integrated GPU throttled down from 1Ghz to 200Mhz, whenever the laptop decides.

Sure some of this is intermittent, which is the bad part - you expect that all of your computer should be working for you.

I realise this is a puny computer in 2018, for any serious DAW use, but especially for those starting out, some caveats should be included in the sales pitch for computer hardware and software.

Most of what you paid for could be tied up occasionally or permanently doing things that you may never see the benefit of, and impact your workflow, and the only answer is especially with Windows 10 - buy as much CPU and RAM as you can afford, then bump up your specs a bit more to accommodate these housekeeping application's overheads!.

The beauty of plugins(you can have as many as your CPU can handle, and you pay once - deploy as many instances as you need), and the increasing availability of low latency audio interfaces, causes me to toy with the idea of using a Windows PC for live mixing - but these random acts of CPU torture by background processes, which you cannot control with ease or without further risks by disabling them, almost kills that idea.

Kinda makes you appreciate why running DAW's live using native processing, for mainstream live mixing has not taken hold, with most live digital mixers using DSP or FPGA, rather than general purpose Win/Mac/Intel. - except Waves Soundgrid Servers, -which run on Intel CPU's(not sure what their O/S is).

Microsoft - we need some way to give priority to the DAW or limit the resource utilisation of background processes, and retain the priority configuration whenever apps are restarted.
Old 12th July 2018
  #6180
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Have you tried to change power options as well as shutting down some services?
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