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Old 20th February 2018
  #5371
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by throbert View Post
Hi Nate, good to here from you,
I have MCT from back in 2016, so should I re DLL it to get 1709. I went back to W7 but I'll be
using your guide this time so no internet until the trigger/reboot.

Oh, and a couple questions:

1. how do you do the overwrite mode in Command?

2. I wanted to know if this is what you mean by system administrator:

open command with run as administrator and type:
C:\>net user administrator /active:yes
log off/reboot and get an administrator account

thanks for your help,
throb
1. It's been a long time since I had to do it (Syncrosoft days) but IIRC you just add /o to the end of the string to execute an installer.

2. I haven't found a need to use the master admin account in W10, just the option via right-click on an installer or the like. IIRC, I got corrected for thinking the master admin account is different from user admin accounts, anyways.
Old 20th February 2018
  #5372
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TAFKAT's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
The Media Creation Tool always downloads the latest ISO when started, you cannot even load an older version if you wanted to..
You can install / create .iso's of previous versions from an MTC , as not all are the same. I have specific MCT's that will download what ever version of Windows was designated at the time of its creation , 1511, 1607, etc

Not something that MS is going to be speaking loudly about obviously.

Old 21st February 2018
  #5373
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TAFKAT's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdm View Post
That is another reason why a limit to slots could return us to the days of TDM - carefully planning and limiting mixes around available "dsp", or in this case, FLS; submixing, bouncing, and mixing stems. Hardly progress given the cpu power we have available now.
I think that is a bit of a reach, with all due respect.

CPU power currently is more accessible but it isn't anything new. I am yet to have a client report this issue to me and I have been deploying a large number of 6-8+ single systems , even up to 20 cores with Dual Xeons for quite a while. I would have thought one of my high end clients that slam these systems to the nth degree would have encountered it.

Yes there is a ceiling imposed that needs to be detailed and further discussed, to which I can't comment further on because I am not that well versed into why the ceiling is there at the core level of the operating system, but reading in and trying to get a better angle it seems that those hitting the ceilings are doing so because of programming decisions by some plugin developers that are using more slots than others.

I'd like to see a list of the VI's and plugins that are using the multiple slots so that we have a balanced narrative, as I believe as much blame lies with the developers , as with MS for the imposed ceiling.

Old 21st February 2018
  #5374
kdm
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT View Post
I think that is a bit of a reach, with all due respect.

CPU power currently is more accessible but it isn't anything new. I am yet to have a client report this issue to me and I have been deploying a large number of 6-8+ single systems , even up to 20 cores with Dual Xeons for quite a while. I would have thought one of my high end clients that slam these systems to the nth degree would have encountered it.

It isn't a stretch here. It really depends on how your clients use their systems. They could load up 120 channels of bx Console E and only use 2 slots. Or they could load 40 or so channels of completely unique EQs, comps, channel strips, pres, tape emus, etc, that all use 2 slots each and hit the wall before coming close to a final mix. Granted, it isn't as likely during a mix because most of us don't use *that* many different plugins for general EQ, comp, channel strips. But some people do.

There is a quick way to hit the wall, though it isn't the most likely scenario - Analog Lab from Arturia uses 43 slots because it calls all of it's VIs at once. That leaves 28 slots in Cubase 9.5 - just load another 5 Arturia VIs and you are out of plugin slots. Unfortuately, some of Arturia's preset libraries they sell as add-ons are written for Analog Lab, and not the specific VIs they use, so that is why it could come up in a production session vs. being unlikely when used in live performance.

I'll send you a list of VIs I've tested so far with FLS numbers for each - it isn't exhaustive, but enough to cover quite a few developers' plugins.

This limit is reality for some of us, and I'm not the only one. I know of other users not able to open older Nuendo sessions because new Nuendo 8 features reduced the limit just enough. And that is a notable concern - DAW developers must use FLS slots if they add component libraries (i.e. modular feature sets vs. hard programming new features into the software). This is more common with Steinberg's approach, given the two application development (Cubase/Nuendo sharing a core engine, with add-on features). Fortunately for me, VEPro uses no FLS slots (nor should it, being just a server connection), so most of my work avoids it. However, with electronic music, where a lot of different VIs and plugins are common, it is far more likely.

Studio One just isn't there yet with its features set, and neither is Reaper (i.e. Eucon support, custom video engine, ADR, Reconform, etc). They both likely tally more free FLS slots for empty projects - I know Reaper has more free slots.
Old 21st February 2018
  #5375
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TAFKAT's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdm View Post
It isn't a stretch here. It really depends on how your clients use their systems. They could load up 120 channels of bx Console E and only use 2 slots. Or they could load 40 or so channels of completely unique EQs, comps, channel strips, pres, tape emus, etc, that all use 2 slots each and hit the wall before coming close to a final mix. Granted, it isn't as likely during a mix because most of us don't use *that* many different plugins for general EQ, comp, channel strips. But some people do.
Its a stretch comparing it to TDM in that the working environment requires a scenario that many will not navigate in , whereas TDM ceilings were hard set , no matter whether they were individual unique or the same plugin used multiple times.

Quote:
There is a quick way to hit the wall, though it isn't the most likely scenario - Analog Lab from Arturia uses 43 slots because it calls all of it's VIs at once. That leaves 28 slots in Cubase 9.5 - just load another 5 Arturia VIs and you are out of plugin slots. Unfortuately, some of Arturia's preset libraries they sell as add-ons are written for Analog Lab, and not the specific VIs they use, so that is why it could come up in a production session vs. being unlikely when used in live performance.
The more you keep mentioning Arturia, the more my leaning is towards poor developer imposed coding practices

Quote:
I'll send you a list of VIs I've tested so far with FLS numbers for each - it isn't exhaustive, but enough to cover quite a few developers' plugins.
Just post it here, better to be out in the open.

Quote:
This limit is reality for some of us, and I'm not the only one. I know of other users not able to open older Nuendo sessions because new Nuendo 8 features reduced the limit just enough. And that is a notable concern - DAW developers must use FLS slots if they add component libraries (i.e. modular feature sets vs. hard programming new features into the software). This is more common with Steinberg's approach, given the two application development (Cubase/Nuendo sharing a core engine, with add-on features). Fortunately for me, VEPro uses no FLS slots (nor should it, being just a server connection), so most of my work avoids it. However, with electronic music, where a lot of different VIs and plugins are common, it is far more likely.
Let me get this out of the way, this wasn't meant to be a slight or dismissing your concerns in any way, we go back a long way , I am hoping you understand my comments are coming from a position of mutual respect.

My comments are purely stating I haven't had clients report back to me as yet, and some work extensively in EDM , so I am just attempting to get a clearer narrative re the potential triggers and who will be effected by them.

I'd rather not enter too far into Steinbergs "features" or any narrative in that leaning, as I reached a point of apathy with anything to do with Steinberg/Cubendo many years ago, as you know. It has always been 1 step forward, 2 steps back.

Quote:
Studio One just isn't there yet with its features set, and neither is Reaper (i.e. Eucon support, custom video engine, ADR, Reconform, etc). They both likely tally more free FLS slots for empty projects - I know Reaper has more free slots.
Horses for courses, I have had several long term Cubendo clients make the move to Reaper for some recent projects for other reasons, and haven't looked back, the new custom video engine being one of the triggers which is nothing but a cluster f**k , ground hog day and all that.., I digress.


Last edited by TAFKAT; 21st February 2018 at 03:47 AM..
Old 21st February 2018
  #5376
Gear Maniac
 

I have hit the plugin barrier and at first i thought it was down to issues with a particular plugin. (Studio One would crash trying to load certain projects, i had to move the .dll from the plugin folder).
Originally i had downloaded a mix template from Mix Better Now, but the creator was on Mac which does not have this limitation. His template featured largely UAD plugins which i don't have so i set about replacing the UAD stuff with my native plugins. What would happen in Studio One is that you'd drag in the plug into the Insert slot and instead of it appearing it would vanish. I found that this didn't happen with Waves plugins. The reason is that Waves uses its pluginshell and Studio One only sees that as one plugin, so you can use multiple Waves plugins as each different effect isn't unique.
I would get so far with creating my own template, everything would be fine then i'd hit the limit and the software would become unstable.
A workaround is to use plugins that are within their own shells or racks, like Soundtoys and the Slate VMR. Not ideal and i'm not sure whether Microsoft are looking to address this or whether they bat it back to the responsibility of the plugin developer. Either way its very frustrating.
Old 21st February 2018
  #5377
kdm
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by doughnuts View Post
A workaround is to use plugins that are within their own shells or racks, like Soundtoys and the Slate VMR. Not ideal and i'm not sure whether Microsoft are looking to address this or whether they bat it back to the responsibility of the plugin developer. Either way its very frustrating.
Slate VMR uses 2 slots for the first instance of VMR (no additional for plugins within VMR) but it doesn't release those 2 slots when removed (until you restart Cubase/Nuendo).

The same is true of several Waves plugins - they will leave 1 or 2 FLS slots allocated even if removed, so if you try a bunch of different Waves plugins, and remove them, you could have 4 or more fewer FLS slots (not all hold slots when removed).

Waves plugins do use additional FLS slots for each new unique plugin. Waveshell seems to be part of the allocation, but each plugin also allocates memory for at least one dll.

The only "shell" plugin system that eliminates additional FLS slots is VMR. I don't have any Soundtoys plugins to test their system.

Fwiw, Cubase/Nuendo's stock plugins use 0 FLS slots since they are built as a plugin set within Cubase/Nuendo (i.e. they probably either use a single dll for the plugin set or are just part of Cubase/Nuendo).
Old 21st February 2018
  #5378
kdm
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT View Post
Its a stretch comparing it to TDM in that the working environment requires a scenario that many will not navigate in , whereas TDM ceilings were hard set , no matter whether they were individual unique or the same plugin used multiple times.
It was just a reference I knew most people would understand at a basic level - planning out sessions based on limited DSP. I'm only trying to get users to see that this is a significant issue that only Microsoft can address.

We could just ignore it and hope no one ever needs to mix or score a feature film, or produce a major label artist on Windows (not that anyone in film post in LA uses Windows), but given this limit, it isn't likely to happen anyway. Most of the LA composers I know of are on Macs too, so they aren't going to hit the limit. So far, that seems to be the only full solution - buy a Mac (even with all of the headaches that would entail).

Since this is a Windows 10 thread, I am hoping there will be support for asking Microsoft to extend or remove the limit as many of us have already run into this. Programming with dlls isn't going away anytime soon, if ever. It isn't bad programming to use dlls or FLS slots (quite the opposite) - it is part of the way an application uses existing resources instead of bloat-coding to include everything in the .exe (whether it is used once every 6 years or everytime the app is opened).

This isn't simply an issue with static .libs (which have their advantages, btw), it is an issue with the number of .dlls we end up loading increasing over the course of a few years' time. Pete can correct me if any of this is not quite technically accurate. The reason some applications need static libraries is due to a limitation in dlls: .dlls depend on the end user have the right runtime libraries installed. This is why we get a ton of installs of C++ runtime versions piling up - each developer has to ensure their .dll uses the right one. Static libraries ensure there is no mismatch, but the tradeoff is each instance loading independently (hence separate FLS slots for each). If they use .dlls, they must either install the runtime version they need, or risk depending on the end user's system to have the right one. If not, their app, or plugin could fail to load, fail to run correctly, or crash the DAW.

Last edited by kdm; 21st February 2018 at 07:06 PM..
Old 21st February 2018
  #5379
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdm View Post
Slate VMR uses 2 slots for the first instance of VMR (no additional for plugins within VMR) but it doesn't release those 2 slots when removed (until you restart Cubase/Nuendo).

The same is true of several Waves plugins - they will leave 1 or 2 FLS slots allocated even if removed, so if you try a bunch of different Waves plugins, and remove them, you could have 4 or more fewer FLS slots (not all hold slots when removed).

Waves plugins do use additional FLS slots for each new unique plugin. Waveshell seems to be part of the allocation, but each plugin also allocates memory for at least one dll.

The only "shell" plugin system that eliminates additional FLS slots is VMR. I don't have any Soundtoys plugins to test their system.

Fwiw, Cubase/Nuendo's stock plugins use 0 FLS slots since they are built as a plugin set within Cubase/Nuendo (i.e. they probably either use a single dll for the plugin set or are just part of Cubase/Nuendo).
Thanks for that. I didn't know that about the Waves stuff. I think Presonus plugins has the same 0 FLS slot approach like Cubase. I have spent many infuriating hours setting up my template only to hit the wall and then have to start removing plugins and replacing them with stock stuff. Annoying and if Microsoft are able to remove this then I'd definitely go to the hassle of installing an updated W10 build
Old 21st February 2018
  #5380
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Owen L T's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdm View Post
If they use .dlls, they must either install the runtime version they need, or risk depending on the end user's system to have the right one. If not, their app, or plugin could fail to load, fail to run correctly, or crash the DAW.
But at least this would open a path for users to actually make full use of their system's processing power. Whereas the current system ensures that the Windows DAW experience is, once more, vastly inferior to the Mac one - after years of suffering from Windows XP's RAM limitations.

Anyone who uses a DAW is used to making sure certain files are in certain locations. This has been a big issue for me, personally, for at least a couple years; it's been widely reported, but there seems to be no moves being made by anyone to address it.

After 20 years of having custom-built studio PCs, my next studio computer is going to have to be a Mac.
Old 21st February 2018
  #5381
Quote:
Originally Posted by doughnuts View Post
I have hit the plugin barrier and at first i thought it was down to issues with a particular plugin. (Studio One would crash trying to load certain projects, i had to move the .dll from the plugin folder).
Originally i had downloaded a mix template from Mix Better Now, but the creator was on Mac which does not have this limitation. His template featured largely UAD plugins which i don't have so i set about replacing the UAD stuff with my native plugins. What would happen in Studio One is that you'd drag in the plug into the Insert slot and instead of it appearing it would vanish. I found that this didn't happen with Waves plugins. The reason is that Waves uses its pluginshell and Studio One only sees that as one plugin, so you can use multiple Waves plugins as each different effect isn't unique.
I would get so far with creating my own template, everything would be fine then i'd hit the limit and the software would become unstable.
A workaround is to use plugins that are within their own shells or racks, like Soundtoys and the Slate VMR. Not ideal and i'm not sure whether Microsoft are looking to address this or whether they bat it back to the responsibility of the plugin developer. Either way its very frustrating.
That doesn't really sound correct. If it's the FLS slot issue others have mentioned, having a plugin "shell" doesn't help that, it actually hurts it. Each DLL loaded typically uses at least one slot.

Might be something else going on here, and might be specific to your system (processor, memory, or some other limitation).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen L T View Post
But at least this would open a path for users to actually make full use of their system's processing power. Whereas the current system ensures that the Windows DAW experience is, once more, vastly inferior to the Mac one - after years of suffering from Windows XP's RAM limitations.

Anyone who uses a DAW is used to making sure certain files are in certain locations. This has been a big issue for me, personally, for at least a couple years; it's been widely reported, but there seems to be no moves being made by anyone to address it.

After 20 years of having custom-built studio PCs, my next studio computer is going to have to be a Mac.
"Vastly inferior" is a bit of a stretch. The majority of folks are not running into this issue, including film composers on PCs who like to use Cubase/Nuendo, presumably.

I'm also not seeing this "widely reported". Again, a few folks have run into it, and I'd like to see if fixed, but the VAST majority of folks are not hitting a wall here.

I don't get the "certain files in certain locations" link. Are you talking about the FLS limitation, or something else? If FLS, it has nothing to do with file location.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdm View Post
Fwiw, Cubase/Nuendo's stock plugins use 0 FLS slots since they are built as a plugin set within Cubase/Nuendo (i.e. they probably either use a single dll for the plugin set or are just part of Cubase/Nuendo).
Cubase itself must use a large number of slots, or else you'd have the max available when you load up an empty project.

Pete
Old 21st February 2018
  #5382
kdm
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
Cubase itself must use a large number of slots, or else you'd have the max available when you load up an empty project.

Pete
I don't know what the max is, but I assume it isn't much over 100. Reaper has around 94 available. Cubase currently has around 71 available. Cubase and Nuendo have extensive additional components that are dlls (eucon adapter, etc), and Nuendo adds ADR, Reconform, game audio connect - at least some of these have associated dlls. Reaper has none of these additional features/capabilities. I haven't had time to add up the slots (plugins) available in Digital Performer to know how many it has available when empty.

This is nothing new, or out of the ordinary for DAWs. Developers can either hard-code every feature into the app, making it even larger, or develop features as components, which often use or are .dlls. I don't see what DAW developers and plugin developers are supposed to do if they already use dynamic libraries.

Many film composers send out stems to mix elsewhere, or even feed audio into ProTools rigs (using the main DAW as mostly just a sequencer). And many of us use VEPRo to offload virtual instruments outside the DAW (slave systems, etc) - that is what I do. And since VEPro uses no FLS slots, I have nearly the max available for internal reverbs, etc. But we don't stack a ton of plugins into orchestral scores. Hybrid electronic/orchestral scores can become more complex.

That isn't even the worst case scenario. The problem becomes more noticeable with electronic music production and general mixing of large, complex projects where we use many different VIs and creative plugins within the DAW. But I know mixers that are hitting the wall with older projects as their DAW adds new feature components using FLS slots (i.e. the total available is less than in a previous version - it is bound to happen with most every Windows DAW at some point).

The average mixer might rely on 10-20 different EQs, comps, reverbs, delays, etc and multiple instances of each even in large mixes, so they would never hit the wall. It is a completely different scenario when using 15-20 VIs, plus many unique plugins.

I can hit the wall using all dynamic plugins and libraries. Just because people aren't reporting it, doesn't mean it isn't already a problem. I have a session I have just started working on with 11 unique VIs, and only a handful of plugins - still just in the concept/theme development stage, and I only have 30 FLS slots free - less than half, and the project isn't even in full production mode yet, much less final mix.
Old 21st February 2018
  #5383
Lives for gear
 
TAFKAT's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdm View Post
We could just ignore it and hope no one ever needs to mix or score a feature film, or produce a major label artist on Windows (not that anyone in film post in LA uses Windows), but given this limit, it isn't likely to happen anyway. Most of the LA composers I know of are on Macs too, so they aren't going to hit the limit. So far, that seems to be the only full solution - buy a Mac (even with all of the headaches that would entail).

.
You have lost me, its now gone from a reach to a stretch to past the point of even being on the same page.

Right , so all of my Windows based professional clients that manage to score major films and produce major label artists, post clients mixing for TV/Film ( even mixing final product in Nuendo , say what ), EDM clients running vast numbers of plugins and virtual instruments , who haven't navigated this issue, are what exactly, lucky or by some pure arse, immune.

Thats rhetorical, btw.

Re your narrative about LA Post not using Windows, they also do not use Nuendo either, nor do they have a need to run at low latency, or have a need for Virtual instruments. Its a practice of compose/produce in what ever you feel most comfortable and provide stems so the entrenched Protools HD/HDX on OSX "standard" doesn't throw a hissy fit. Watch out for those 9173 errors , but I digress.

There is no point or value threatening to go back to Mac as if that is going to have some leverage. If it is so debilitating why haven't you done that already , I am sure there are plenty of viable , powerful Mac solutions available , cut the losses, time is money. Why maintain an allegiance to an operating system that isn't performing to your requirement.

In the meantime I have a growing number of professional Mac users coming the other way, so there is balance in the force.

Last edited by TAFKAT; 21st February 2018 at 09:35 PM..
Old 21st February 2018
  #5384
kdm
Lives for gear
I just maxed out ProTools 12 HD at around 100 slots. To save time, I did use Analog Lab to account for 43 instead of loading 20-30 or so other plugins.

Total System Usage was around 30% with all tracks active, so not close to maxing out the system itself.

ProTools would issue an AAE-7054 error when trying to load any other VI (including Avid's own), after that. Any plugin would cause an AAE error as well - including Avid's.
Old 21st February 2018
  #5385
kdm
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT View Post
You have lost me, its now gone from a reach to a stretch to past the point of even being on the same page.

Right , so all of my Windows based professional clients that manage to score major films and produce major label artists, post clients mixing for TV/Film ( even mixing final product in Nuendo , say what ), EDM clients running vast numbers of plugins and virtual instruments , who haven't navigated this issue, are what exactly, lucky or by some pure arse, immune.
.
Come on Vin - help us out here instead of fighting against us! I am trying to help fellow Windows users. My Mac comment wasn't a threat - it is simple resignation that if this isn't fixed, I may have no choice, but I'm not there right now, nor do I want to spend $6-$10k to buy/customize a Mac just to equal a $2k i7 PC. :-)

Like I explained earlier, this becomes more possible, if not probable, the more VIs and plugins hit the market - people become more creative, using a wider variety. That is when it is more likely to hit larger projects that aren't seeing it now.

I have only been giving general examples and explanations of why this wouldn't have shown up necessarily for most people, that's all. The problem is simple, and I've explained it more clearly than necessary for those that are aware of the pros and cons of dlls, and having any hard limit to the number of plugins that can be loaded, uniquely or not. I'll see if I can get someone to release an app to check FLS slots. Then people can see for themselves how much room they have, or don't have left over.

Last edited by kdm; 21st February 2018 at 11:59 PM..
Old 22nd February 2018
  #5386
Lives for gear
 
TAFKAT's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdm View Post
Come on Vin - help us out here instead of fighting against us! I am trying to help fellow Windows users. My Mac comment wasn't a threat - it is simple resignation that if this isn't fixed, I may have no choice, but I'm not there right now, nor do I have $6-$10k to buy/customize a Mac that would duplicate my current $2k i7 PC. :-)
I am not trying to fight you Dedric, I am doing my best to connect the dots why some are effected and others are not.

Re Mac comments, you should know that was a red rag to a bull, my response was to the blanket statements you were making about the apparent hopelessness of professionals using Windows, which was overblown IMO.

You know very well if this was effecting a number of my clients I'd be burning the house down at MS. Pete can attest to that with some other issues I have brought to his attention.

Re me not wanting the limit raised ( you deleted that comment but it hit my inbox so I'll reply anyway ) , that is not it at all, I will support anything that will help resolve the issue, but without knowing exactly what raising or removing the ceiling entails at the core level , I can't make a judgement call.

FWIW - If you think I am here defending MS you have little to no idea of my current standing in that regard, or you would not even entertain that thought. I am far from being in the front line happy clapping MS's recent product decisions , so if this is an area that can be addressed without causing other issues at the core level, I am all for it.

I know Pete is on it, I am willing to give him the space to navigate it.

Old 22nd February 2018
  #5387
kdm
Lives for gear
I understand Vin. No worries. I did delete that comment because I didn't want to sound argumentative, or addressed at you specifically, and that one did. I know this kind of thing could affect the PC DAW business at some point (hopefully/likely not however), not just our work in production, and I really don't want to see that happen. I am raising the alarm now because I can see where it is headed. Better to address it now *before* it becomes a widespread problem and many users have no choice but to consider switching platforms (though that has significant caveats already).

It might take a while for Microsoft and DAW/plugin developers to work out a viable solution. I would rather see us forge ahead of the storm this could cause than take a direct hit.
Old 22nd February 2018
  #5388
Lives for gear
 

I upgraded a fresh 1709 install with the latest preview edition just to see what I was in for. The upgrade lost some settings in translation. It took a while and rebooted a couple more times than usual and as I was going through all settings to see what got wiped I got a popup that said I needed Feature Updates. I figured it was just Depender definition updates since it checked for updates during install and took a while doing it, but nope. Another complete upgrade routine with reboots and all is what it was. The first time Windows' Sounds alerted me to possible changes. I had switched them back off and lo and behold, after the second upgrade they're back.

I stopped there. It'll be easier to just do a clean install than sift through everything with the chance of doing it twice on offer. This is a heads up not to go through and fix anything after the first, there might be a second coming shortly after. I know this is the preview and it may change that both are contained in one, but I remembered the outcry at one update that was larger than past so I'm doubtful. Both seemed large.

I'm going to do a fresh install from the ISO and track where it goes from here. I was going to upgrade the Insider install I have from Creators, but won't waste the time now.

A whole afternoon gone with this and I haven't been able to delve into anything, the install kicked my a55 and used up my daily quota of patience. Just that makes me think there'll be some unhappy campers come release. I hope I'm wrong.

On the bright side my little studio is the Spic-est and Span-est it's been in ages. I went through everything, floor to ceiling while waiting. Changed strings on a bass and two guitars to boot.
Old 22nd February 2018
  #5389
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdm View Post
I understand Vin. No worries. I did delete that comment because I didn't want to sound argumentative, or addressed at you specifically, and that one did. I know this kind of thing could affect the PC DAW business at some point (hopefully/likely not however), not just our work in production, and I really don't want to see that happen. I am raising the alarm now because I can see where it is headed. Better to address it now *before* it becomes a widespread problem and many users have no choice but to consider switching platforms (though that has significant caveats already).

It might take a while for Microsoft and DAW/plugin developers to work out a viable solution. I would rather see us forge ahead of the storm this could cause than take a direct hit.
Dedric, do you use Ensemble Pro? If yes, same issue?
As that is what most composers use for their instruments for large mockups, which may be a reason why our customers do not suffer this issue (none of our clients have this issue, and we have tons of 24 cores/48threads systems out there which are nuked with VST/VSTi's).
However, a lot of our customers don't use VEP and still didn't get this issue despite using tons of plugs. If there is any question or issue, they typically call me.
Old 22nd February 2018
  #5390
kdm
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
Dedric, do you use Ensemble Pro? If yes, same issue?
As that is what most composers use for their instruments for large mockups, which may be a reason why our customers do not suffer this issue (none of our clients have this issue, and we have tons of 24 cores/48threads systems out there which are nuked with VST/VSTi's).
However, a lot of our customers don't use VEP and still didn't get this issue despite using tons of plugs. If there is any question or issue, they typically call me.
Yes I do, in a very large template with networked PCs. However, VEPro is not subject to this since it is simply a server connection. That also circumvents the problem by offloading 90% of our VIs to other PCs and the local VEP server (which likely allocates the max FLS slots for each instance within the server project - i.e. it can host a ton of VIs).

It is highly unlikely most VEP-based composers would run into this simply because enough of our VI load is elsewhere. We typically don't load up the host session with enough VIs and plugins to push the FLS limit (my template is complex enough that I don't have the ASIO/cpu overhead to add that many VIs/FLS-hungry plugins). VEP/orchestral projects aren't a concern for me with the FLS limit, and probably won't be for most composers - for now. But the time is coming - that is what I was referring to earlier.

However, a standalone session, without the overhead of VEP/bussing, but with many locally hosted VIs is more likely. I'm working on a non-VEPro/non-orchestral project at the moment - that's how I came across this problem, though it has been a topic with other end users for a while now. I have run well over 20 instances of Omnisphere (dynamic/dll - 1 FLS for all instances) along with a few other VIs before I knew about the FLS limit; but translate that to even 10 or 15 other unique VIs, and then add 20-30 plugins on top, and the FLS limit can be easy to reach, which is exactly what happened when I hit the wall (I knew about this limit already at that point from other users, but hadn't been testing for it yet).

As I mentioned to Vin, I am putting this issue out there not because it is a widespread problem now, but because it is very likely to become one soon enough. It does affect a few of us already, and for now we have workarounds, but eventually that may not be the case. Most every limit is eventually exceeded as technology progresses.
Old 22nd February 2018
  #5391
Lives for gear
 
norbury brook's Avatar
 

KDM, As someone who hasn't hit htis limit either,my thoughts are this; surely it would seem to be an issue with how some developers code their plugins/VI's and it's them who need to adress this as we go forward more than MS.
I've friends who are 100% professional composers who've never come across this. I've never come across it either but it would seem you need to be using 1; Arturia plugins, 2: using a different devs plugin for each plugin you use rather than a 'family' like slate,waves etc.

I dont use Arturia and I use 'family' plugins i my mixes so perhaps thats why I don't have the issue.


MC
Old 22nd February 2018
  #5392
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdm View Post
Yes I do, in a very large template with networked PCs. However, VEPro is not subject to this since it is simply a server connection. That also circumvents the problem by offloading 90% of our VIs to other PCs and the local VEP server (which likely allocates the max FLS slots for each instance within the server project - i.e. it can host a ton of VIs).

It is highly unlikely most VEP-based composers would run into this simply because enough of our VI load is elsewhere. We typically don't load up the host session with enough VIs and plugins to push the FLS limit (my template is complex enough that I don't have the ASIO/cpu overhead to add that many VIs/FLS-hungry plugins). VEP/orchestral projects aren't a concern for me with the FLS limit, and probably won't be for most composers - for now. But the time is coming - that is what I was referring to earlier.

However, a standalone session, without the overhead of VEP/bussing, but with many locally hosted VIs is more likely. I'm working on a non-VEPro/non-orchestral project at the moment - that's how I came across this problem, though it has been a topic with other end users for a while now. I have run well over 20 instances of Omnisphere (dynamic/dll - 1 FLS for all instances) along with a few other VIs before I knew about the FLS limit; but translate that to even 10 or 15 other unique VIs, and then add 20-30 plugins on top, and the FLS limit can be easy to reach, which is exactly what happened when I hit the wall (I knew about this limit already at that point from other users, but hadn't been testing for it yet).

As I mentioned to Vin, I am putting this issue out there not because it is a widespread problem now, but because it is very likely to become one soon enough. It does affect a few of us already, and for now we have workarounds, but eventually that may not be the case. Most every limit is eventually exceeded as technology progresses.
Thanks for that feedback. I didn't mean VEP as distributed among multiple systems, rather as a VSTi host on the same system, as many of our composer customers do - they actually do have the ASIO/CPU overhead on dual 2687Wv4 systems, especially with VEP which is much more efficient than Cubase as a host.
That being said, not everyone uses or wants to use VEP, so it definitely is something to keep an eye on, but like Vin stated, Pete is looking into this which is more than what you, Vin and I can do, I guess...
If you have a link to that FLS counter tool that owuld be great, as I have 2 customers I would like to check out where they stand, knowing that they use tons of plugs, potentially the first to run into this issue.
Old 22nd February 2018
  #5393
Gear Addict
 

I'm with kdm 100% on this one. Thanks for all the great info and work.

I'm a Win noob. Currently configuring a newly built i9 Windows machine right now, coming from almost 20 years on the Mac, and this is disappointing news. I thought DPC latency and stopping updates would be the only issues I'd face, but this sounds like yet another one.

It's probably not a problem for someone using heaps of instances of the same plug (like film composers tend to do with Kontakt etc.), but for my work-flow it will definitely be a limitation. I'm guessing it would even have been a problems on projects running on my MacBook Pro if macOS had these limitations.

Add to that the (still little known) Windows limitation of number of simultaneous threads available for real-time multimedia applications, and it's clear to me that Microsoft should look into releasing a fix for their operating systems.
Old 22nd February 2018
  #5394
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate Wade View Post
I upgraded a fresh 1709 install with the latest preview edition just to see what I was in for. The upgrade lost some settings in translation. It took a while and rebooted a couple more times than usual and as I was going through all settings to see what got wiped I got a popup that said I needed Feature Updates. I figured it was just Depender definition updates since it checked for updates during install and took a while doing it, but nope. Another complete upgrade routine with reboots and all is what it was. The first time Windows' Sounds alerted me to possible changes. I had switched them back off and lo and behold, after the second upgrade they're back.

I stopped there. It'll be easier to just do a clean install than sift through everything with the chance of doing it twice on offer. This is a heads up not to go through and fix anything after the first, there might be a second coming shortly after. I know this is the preview and it may change that both are contained in one, but I remembered the outcry at one update that was larger than past so I'm doubtful. Both seemed large.

I'm going to do a fresh install from the ISO and track where it goes from here. I was going to upgrade the Insider install I have from Creators, but won't waste the time now.

A whole afternoon gone with this and I haven't been able to delve into anything, the install kicked my a55 and used up my daily quota of patience. Just that makes me think there'll be some unhappy campers come release. I hope I'm wrong.

On the bright side my little studio is the Spic-est and Span-est it's been in ages. I went through everything, floor to ceiling while waiting. Changed strings on a bass and two guitars to boot.
A little follow up, IE is barely usable due to 'not responding' errors. This used to be the only site I had such an issue but others have spit the error. This site is worse than before, I get the error every page just about. I had a youtube vid playing and the system locked. No blue screen or error after forced shutdown prompting to 'Start Normally' so I don't know what it was about. I got beeps I never heard before when trying to click anything including Start to reboot.

Beginning to wonder if I'm not being herded to using Edge. But MS would never do something so under-handed, right?

Haven't had a chance to do a clean install, needed a break after yesterday and I have to service the wife's car today and get an inspection sticker- in the rain no less. I get to roll around in puddles in 40F temps this AM.
Old 22nd February 2018
  #5395
BML
Here for the gear
 
BML's Avatar
 

The dll limit is definitively a problem. I´m not a PC specialist, but this is a big bummer! I´m currently mixing a project with about 14Drums - 6 Vocal - Bass - 5 GTR and a couple of VIs. I´m using plugins from UAD, Soundtoys, Fabfilter, XLN Audio, Eventide, Spectrasonics, Flux, Izotope, etc. I7 8700K works like a charm and my Cubase 9.5 Audio-Performance meter says only 30-35% . I could still use some nice FX´s on GTRs, but I can´t load anymore new plugins! I have to use DirectOfflineProcessing, even though my system is not in trouble at all!

Some Plugins still work though: Flux, Native Instruments, Steinberg.

Bad Plugins are UAD, Eventide, Soundtoys, Izotope. I asked these brands to work out their programs. And they all say this is a windows problem. The problem is: they sound fantastic!

I want to use these Pluggies, because I want to deliver my best work!
Old 22nd February 2018
  #5396
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BML View Post
The dll limit is definitively a problem. I´m not a PC specialist, but this is a big bummer! I´m currently mixing a project with about 14Drums - 6 Vocal - Bass - 5 GTR and a couple of VIs. I´m using plugins from UAD, Soundtoys, Fabfilter, XLN Audio, Eventide, Spectrasonics, Flux, Izotope, etc. I7 8700K works like a charm and my Cubase 9.5 Audio-Performance meter says only 30-35% . I could still use some nice FX´s on GTRs, but I can´t load anymore new plugins! I have to use DirectOfflineProcessing, even though my system is not in trouble at all!

Some Plugins still work though: Flux, Native Instruments, Steinberg.

Bad Plugins are UAD, Eventide, Soundtoys, Izotope. I asked these brands to work out their programs. And they all say this is a windows problem. The problem is: they sound fantastic!

I want to use these Pluggies, because I want to deliver my best work!
Run VEPro on the same machine and use it as a rack. There are other plugin 'racks' out there that can span the gap, possibly.

Funny how people screamed for unlimited inserts and now that they're here, they can't be used.

The few people I know using huge orchestral/scoring templates all run slaves with VEPro. A one box solution for complex templates is a ways away, IMHO.
Old 22nd February 2018
  #5397
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate Wade View Post
A little follow up, IE is barely usable due to 'not responding' errors. This used to be the only site I had such an issue but others have spit the error. This site is worse than before, I get the error every page just about. I had a youtube vid playing and the system locked. No blue screen or error after forced shutdown prompting to 'Start Normally' so I don't know what it was about. I got beeps I never heard before when trying to click anything including Start to reboot.

Beginning to wonder if I'm not being herded to using Edge. But MS would never do something so under-handed, right?

Haven't had a chance to do a clean install, needed a break after yesterday and I have to service the wife's car today and get an inspection sticker- in the rain no less. I get to roll around in puddles in 40F temps this AM.
There are quite a few new entries in Settings. If you click on e-mail and app accounts under Accounts, it closes the settings window.

*EDIT* Mic and Camera under Privacy also close the Settings window. Settings have been added and old settings changed so if it stands as is it might catch some out.

The clear spot on the radar that was heading my way closed and is now showing yellows and reds. I've got to deal with the vehicle before drowning becomes a possibility.

Should have made a separate thread.
Old 22nd February 2018
  #5398
kdm
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
Thanks for that feedback. I didn't mean VEP as distributed among multiple systems, rather as a VSTi host on the same system,
Correct - on the same system there is no FLS hit within the DAW from VEPro connections when VEPro is running as a server on the same system.
Old 22nd February 2018
  #5399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skap View Post
Add to that the (still little known) Windows limitation of number of simultaneous threads available for real-time multimedia applications, and it's clear to me that Microsoft should look into releasing a fix for their operating systems.
That's not an OS limitation that needs a fix, it's a best practice that we've conveyed to developers. There's a registry key that can be set to work around until the developers adopt the practices.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate Wade View Post
A little follow up, IE is barely usable due to 'not responding' errors. This used to be the only site I had such an issue but others have spit the error. This site is worse than before, I get the error every page just about. I had a youtube vid playing and the system locked. No blue screen or error after forced shutdown prompting to 'Start Normally' so I don't know what it was about. I got beeps I never heard before when trying to click anything including Start to reboot.

Beginning to wonder if I'm not being herded to using Edge. But MS would never do something so under-handed, right?

Haven't had a chance to do a clean install, needed a break after yesterday and I have to service the wife's car today and get an inspection sticker- in the rain no less. I get to roll around in puddles in 40F temps this AM.
Maybe disable Flash. That may be your problem. FWIW, IE is there mostly for compatibility for enterprise; it's not really recommended as a primary browser. I definitely wouldn't use it for things like YouTube.


Pete
Old 22nd February 2018
  #5400
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
That's not an OS limitation that needs a fix, it's a best practice that we've conveyed to developers. There's a registry key that can be set to work around until the developers adopt the practices.
Thanks, Pete. I greatly appreciate you being here answering. What does this mean exactly? Why is it best practice to have fewer threads available for MM apps if you have f.i. an EPYC CPU? And care to tell a bit more about the registry key? Thanks!
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