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Who Uses Plugin Alliance?
Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #11731
Lives for gear
 
Eigenwert's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreitausend View Post
I'm interested in Black Box HG-2, but with HG-2 MS around the corner not sure whether i should buy it now or wait. I don't want to buy it twice assuming the MS version will be a new plugin besides the current one. Maybe i'm wrong and they replace the old one with the new?
Welcome to the poker game.
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Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #11732
Lives for gear
 
IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreitausend View Post
I'm interested in Black Box HG-2, but with HG-2 MS around the corner not sure whether i should buy it now or wait. I don't want to buy it twice assuming the MS version will be a new plugin besides the current one. Maybe i'm wrong and they replace the old one with the new?
Here's how you play poker.

Buy the current one at a drastic sale price.

Forget about the new one for a while, you have a new plugin to use. Don't think about what might be in the new. Deal with now. (There's no room for emotions at the poker table).

While you're using the current one, the new one will eventually be released. Don't think about it much. Look at the upgrade price, then forget about it until you can drastically reduce it with a voucher.

If the old one becomes part of your workflow, upgrade when it's cheap to do so. If you find you don't use it much, step away from the table with your wallet in tact.
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Last edited by IM WHO YOU THINK; 26th October 2020 at 09:28 PM..
Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #11733
Here for the gear
 

Hmm, 1 hour left. I think i'll sit this one out.
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Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #11735
Lives for gear
 
zvukofor's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
I find all this talk about aliasing pure bullcrap - you're not going to hear it in a mix under normal circumstances. Period. Stop paying attention to the metering/displays and work with your ears. But I guess every once in a while someone feels the need to bring up aliasing or the joys (not) of Acustica plugins.
Actually, a lot of us just heard something is wrong before we started measuring.
Accumulated inharmonic distortion can be heard very easily.
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Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #11736
Quote:
Originally Posted by zvukofor View Post
Actually, a lot of us just heard something is wrong before we started measuring.
Accumulated inharmonic distortion can be heard very easily.
That’s right. These issues are cumulative, for one.

Also, just because you see what looks like minimal aliasing in a plug-in with a single sine does not mean it can’t become an issue; it will become vastly more pronounced since normal musical waveforms are more complex and cover a much larger part of the frequency spectrum. Add a lot of compression and other forms of saturation and it accumulates quickly.

We hear a harshness and edginess we simply attribute to digital, which is essentially true; but it’s explainable and largely preventable... because it’s actually unintended material being added in small amounts that accumulate to a pile of crap.

There’s no easy solution as there are inevitable tradeoffs; but denying it is an issue is both incorrect and unproductive to achieving better sound.

So, yes, you do actually hear aliasing the more complex an arrangement becomes if care is not taken. You also have to know what to listen for.
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Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #11737
Lives for gear
 
apartment dog's Avatar
 

Let's rename this thread to;
Who uses plugin aliasing?
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Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #11738
Lives for gear
 
TonStrom's Avatar
(somebody got a 25 or 50$ pa voucher for me? pm please**
cheers!)


EDIT DOES NOT WORK LIKE INTENDED - THANKS BUT NO NEED ANYMORE
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Last edited by TonStrom; 26th October 2020 at 10:22 PM..
Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #11739
Lives for gear
 
dirtROBOT's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by apartment dog View Post
Let's rename this thread to;
Who uses plugin aliasing?
learning about aliasing on gearslutz is like learning about cats from dogs, it's so bloody annoying

'Arg I was going to mix a hit record but I used aliasing plugins waaaahhhhh. It's <dev name/company here>'s fault I couldn't mix a hit record, waaaaahhhhhh'
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Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #11740
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pali View Post
I did it. Sold it a few months ago and missed it.
It’s a big sweet spot.
Also, followed by a cab sim, I’m using it as an amp.
Nice! I use it as a guitar 'stompbox' style boost.
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Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #11741
Lives for gear
 
apartment dog's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonStrom View Post
somebody got a 25 or 50$ pa voucher for me? pm please**
cheers!
Sent you a pm.
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Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #11742
Lives for gear
 
guavadude's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by robshrock View Post
That’s right. These issues are cumulative, for one.

So, yes, you do actually hear aliasing the more complex an arrangement becomes if care is not taken. You also have to know what to listen for.
I just turn the guitars up!
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Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #11743
Lives for gear
 
TonStrom's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by apartment dog View Post
Sent you a pm.
thanks a lot!
in case i cannot use it as intended, i'll "give it back" to you



EDIT DOES NOT WORK, thank you, but i cannot use it, so please use it for yourself / somebody else

cheers !!
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Old 27th October 2020 | Show parent
  #11744
Lives for gear
 
musicman691's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtROBOT View Post
learning about aliasing on gearslutz is like learning about cats from dogs, it's so bloody annoying

'Arg I was going to mix a hit record but I used aliasing plugins waaaahhhhh. It's <dev name/company here>'s fault I couldn't mix a hit record, waaaaahhhhhh'
Said it before and I'll say it again: all this yapping about something at -80 or even lower is totally useless. Ain't gonna hear it and if the plugin sounds good and does what you want - don't let the bullcrap measurements get to you. Just use the plugin and be done with it.
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Old 27th October 2020 | Show parent
  #11745
Old 27th October 2020 | Show parent
  #11746
Lives for gear
 
musicman691's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonStrom View Post
Alright - somebody finally brought up the Snake Oil guy - good on ya mate!
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Old 27th October 2020 | Show parent
  #11747
Quote:
Originally Posted by guavadude View Post
I just turn the guitars up!
That's why I'm always turning you back down... LOL
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Old 27th October 2020 | Show parent
  #11748
Lives for gear
 
guavadude's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by robshrock View Post
That's why I'm always turning you back down... LOL
I'm definitely chock full of aliasing among other things.
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Old 27th October 2020
  #11749
Lives for gear
depending on my habits to pile up all kinds of saturators, EQs, exiters and comps, aliasing can develop arms like an octopus.

some -80dB check does not tell what is going on in the result, -
but to me it sounds "veiled" and like a walkman cassette, some call it over-processed.
the solution is probably to ditch the chain and rebuild with different plugins, and to get experience about which ones multiply each other's artifacts.

"orthogonality" night play a role, sometimes sought, sometimes avoided.
what do I mean?
take two plugins, and examine the technologies. the makers use libraries for math, upsampling, and for different types of processing, and other labs may use different libraries.
then also, how in detail do they achieve the desired effect that sells the plugin, what basic types of algorithms are at work?
we may sometimes not know enough about these internals, but we see the outcome, that a selection of two plugins may go together well, and others that on the surface do the same, sound ugly together.

orthogonality on that playground means, use plugin A and you get artifacts of type A1,A2,.. - then add plugin B and it adds B1,B2,... which are a lot different. so, do they diminish and smoothen out each other, or do they multiply each other and create a whole mess of C11,C12,C21,C22... you get the basic idea.

if two plugins are non-orthogonal, e.g. two different EQs from the same vendor, they have a common direction, they produce both the same types of artifacts (this is just a raw example, not to generalize). so if we chain them, there will be a slight increase, but nothing really new. beware the factor that a plugin that is all about saturation and intermodulation, of course it will have a multiplicative effect with everything else.
but if we chain some character EQs and exciters, the situation becomes more detailed.
though this is based on principles in math, I have to disclaim that my approach is not very scientific, but should help others to develop some general instinct about combining plugins, and to guess what might cause a veil over the sound, that makes it feel cheap, muffled or harsh, etc.

like, to try a plugin that is supposed to sound very similar, but comes from a different vendor, known to use different detail technologies, suddenly the clarity will improve.
or, to avoid to put together plugins from vendors A and B in the same chain.
lacking the humungous math and analytic examination, that this would take to prove for every and any interaction, the engineer in the operative theater can still use a lot of fast educated guesses on orthogonality.

on another note, if I use a certain chain on the drums, and another chain on guitars, and the plugins in one chain are orthogonal to the other chain, then there is a chance that the sound results in being richer or more vibrant, or "less digital".
like I use Lindell X on drums, and 4000G on guitars.

I think this is the reason, why BX offers this TMT stuff (or what's it called?) that let's you select from 70 or so different physical devices that have a virtual representation in little changes in the coefficients, i.e. capacitor tolerance etc.
It makes the channels a little bit more orthogonal, which means that artifacts/imperfections will have a slightly different character from one to the next instance of the plugin.
in other words, piling up always the same artifact with using the same cheap low-quality plugin a hundred times, might get you a very "digital" sound.

(orthogonal, in this popular context, means a certain view on being "different", and should make it easier to guess the amount of difference, though, for that matter, not numerically. for two things to be fully orthogonal, means to have nothing in common, in a way that they do not mess with each other. while in vector math, orthogonality is a yes-no property between two vectors.)

TL;DR
when we combine a number of plugins in a chain, then factors of aliasing can become much more relevant, and also a bit unpredictable, while such aliasing for a singular plugin examined alone, might look very irrelevant.
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Last edited by NeoVXR; 27th October 2020 at 05:20 AM..
Old 27th October 2020 | Show parent
  #11750
Lives for gear
 
blaugruen7's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonStrom View Post
I found him sometimes shooting very fast. Not having fully investigated the plugin, overseeing core functions.... YouTube is sometimes a bit flat....
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Old 27th October 2020 | Show parent
  #11751
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleazy_Rider View Post
been waiting for this and now it is all mine
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Old 27th October 2020 | Show parent
  #11752
Lives for gear
 
TonStrom's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by blaugruen7 View Post
I found him sometimes shooting very fast. Not having fully investigated the plugin, overseeing core functions.... YouTube is sometimes a bit flat....
In this case, he just used the oversampling feature, and did not do a plugin review.
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Old 27th October 2020 | Show parent
  #11753
Lives for gear
 
blaugruen7's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonStrom View Post
In this case, he just used the oversampling feature, and did not do a plugin review.
I am sorry for ranting. Please accept my apologies
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Old 27th October 2020 | Show parent
  #11754
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtROBOT View Post
learning about aliasing on gearslutz is like learning about cats from dogs, it's so bloody annoying
Many of us here on GS are cats having cat conversations... but feel free to join in as long as you don't bark too loudly, drool in the food and raise your leg and piss all over the conversation.
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Old 27th October 2020 | Show parent
  #11755
Lives for gear
 
musicman691's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoVXR View Post
depending on my habits to pile up all kinds of saturators, EQs, exiters and comps, aliasing can develop arms like an octopus.

some -80dB check does not tell what is going on in the result, -
but to me it sounds "veiled" and like a walkman cassette, some call it over-processed.
the solution is probably to ditch the chain and rebuild with different plugins, and to get experience about which ones multiply each other's artifacts.

"orthogonality" night play a role, sometimes sought, sometimes avoided.
what do I mean?
take two plugins, and examine the technologies. the makers use libraries for math, upsampling, and for different types of processing, and other labs may use different libraries.
then also, how in detail do they achieve the desired effect that sells the plugin, what basic types of algorithms are at work?
we may sometimes not know enough about these internals, but we see the outcome, that a selection of two plugins may go together well, and others that on the surface do the same, sound ugly together.

orthogonality on that playground means, use plugin A and you get artifacts of type A1,A2,.. - then add plugin B and it adds B1,B2,... which are a lot different. so, do they diminish and smoothen out each other, or do they multiply each other and create a whole mess of C11,C12,C21,C22... you get the basic idea.

if two plugins are non-orthogonal, e.g. two different EQs from the same vendor, they have a common direction, they produce both the same types of artifacts (this is just a raw example, not to generalize). so if we chain them, there will be a slight increase, but nothing really new. beware the factor that a plugin that is all about saturation and intermodulation, of course it will have a multiplicative effect with everything else.
but if we chain some character EQs and exciters, the situation becomes more detailed.
though this is based on principles in math, I have to disclaim that my approach is not very scientific, but should help others to develop some general instinct about combining plugins, and to guess what might cause a veil over the sound, that makes it feel cheap, muffled or harsh, etc.

like, to try a plugin that is supposed to sound very similar, but comes from a different vendor, known to use different detail technologies, suddenly the clarity will improve.
or, to avoid to put together plugins from vendors A and B in the same chain.
lacking the humungous math and analytic examination, that this would take to prove for every and any interaction, the engineer in the operative theater can still use a lot of fast educated guesses on orthogonality.

on another note, if I use a certain chain on the drums, and another chain on guitars, and the plugins in one chain are orthogonal to the other chain, then there is a chance that the sound results in being richer or more vibrant, or "less digital".
like I use Lindell X on drums, and 4000G on guitars.

I think this is the reason, why BX offers this TMT stuff (or what's it called?) that let's you select from 70 or so different physical devices that have a virtual representation in little changes in the coefficients, i.e. capacitor tolerance etc.
It makes the channels a little bit more orthogonal, which means that artifacts/imperfections will have a slightly different character from one to the next instance of the plugin.
in other words, piling up always the same artifact with using the same cheap low-quality plugin a hundred times, might get you a very "digital" sound.

(orthogonal, in this popular context, means a certain view on being "different", and should make it easier to guess the amount of difference, though, for that matter, not numerically. for two things to be fully orthogonal, means to have nothing in common, in a way that they do not mess with each other. while in vector math, orthogonality is a yes-no property between two vectors.)

TL;DR
when we combine a number of plugins in a chain, then factors of aliasing can become much more relevant, and also a bit unpredictable, while such aliasing for a singular plugin examined alone, might look very irrelevant.
Sounds like a lot of BS to me
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Old 27th October 2020 | Show parent
  #11756
Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
Sounds like a lot of BS to me
Then by all means, carry on doing things the way you think best. I doubt you’re losing any sales due to something like aliasing.
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Old 27th October 2020 | Show parent
  #11757
Lives for gear
 
musicman691's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by robshrock View Post
Then by all means, carry on doing things the way you think best. I doubt you’re losing any sales due to something like aliasing.
I'm not. I have damned little patience for people like NeoVXR who make themselves sound like some kind of expert throwing around nonsense terms. IOW I don't put up with facetious bullcrap.
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Old 27th October 2020 | Show parent
  #11758
trg
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 View Post
I'm not. I have damned little patience for people like NeoVXR who make themselves sound like some kind of expert throwing around nonsense terms. IOW I don't put up with facetious bullcrap.
He explores a theoretical approach, while you seem to defend the practical approach.
I think, there's room for both, while each may have their specific uses...

-80 dB may not have any practical impact, but engineers are always striving to make things better, aren't we?
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Old 27th October 2020 | Show parent
  #11759
Lives for gear
 
easyrider's Avatar
 

What happened ?
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Old 27th October 2020
  #11760
Gear Addict
 

What do you mean what happened? I just slipped down these damn stairs.
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