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I think the reason music sales are in massive decline is:
Old 6th September 2012
  #331
Quote:
Originally Posted by relaxo View Post
You scare me. People who talk like you are the blind tool of tech corporations and you can't even see that you're a pawn in their scheme. "What scheme? The only scheming is done by evil record companies, their lawyers and their evil pawns in government."

Oh, you all think there's no scheming coming from the executives running the trillion dollar internet information business that is your damn nipple?

One certain company has everyone's email, business paperwork, files, address books, pictures and records every seach everyone on the planet does. And you think that all of a sudden the artists (the arch enemy of big brother) who want to get paid for their hard work and sacrifice are aligned with big brother?!?"

Here's all your free candy little boys and girls!! Come in and get it!

You all better examine yourself. YOU'RE the voluntary tool in the bag of big brother. You scare me.


Old 6th September 2012
  #332
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by grawk View Post
The people making mind blowing music were never making much money. If anything, they're more likely to reach their audience today.
True & false. I mean, I hope you're right, but it really depends on what you consider "mind blowing music", "making much money" & what generation/era you're referring to.

This could go on all day. Things are just different, for better or worse.
Old 6th September 2012
  #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rack gear View Post
yeah... poor frank zappa, never made a penny from record sales...
I haven't bought any CDs for quite a while. Until now, when I find myself rebuying my Zappa collection for the fourth time.
Old 6th September 2012
  #334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
I haven't bought any CDs for quite a while. Until now, when I find myself rebuying my Zappa collection for the fourth time.
good on ya!
Old 7th September 2012
  #335
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AwwDeOhh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
.....
..... JM didn't send me a note of thanks.
Yeah, bummer. All the people i don't kill every day don't send me a thank-you-note either! i feel your pain!
Old 7th September 2012
  #336
Smile

.

Personally, I think this recurring topic being beaten to death is just plain old silly.

Since when have musicians EVER made any real money AS A DEMOGRAPHIC?

All this entitlement is insane.

Musicians have mostly always be broke - and I don't see this changing anytime soon.

So many of our arguments PRESUME musicians somehow DESERVE income.

And again - the REASON this supposition is SILLY - is because it's almost NEVER been true in our history.

EVEN when music was supposedly MORE VALUABLE (in our fabulously inaccurate 20/20 hindsight).

So where did this fantasy about musicians being entitled to earn a living come from?

I submit to you that it was almost ENTIRELY fabricated by a few hippies smoking pot in their dorm room, before they were evicted from school. And they were probably philosophy majors - not even musicians.

Anyway, I wish you all the best, and hope you're able to join the real world sometime in the near future.

Because life is EXPENSIVE and short, and paying for survival by creating music seems like a shoddy plan, to say the least.

I know a FEW of you can and / or will prove me wrong. To you, I say KUDOS! You should indeed celebrate yourselves, because you are among the very few in the club.

Cheers!


.
Old 7th September 2012
  #337
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AwwDeOhh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqye View Post
.

Personally, I think this recurring topic being beaten to death is just plain old silly.

Since when have musicians EVER made any real money AS A DEMOGRAPHIC?

All this entitlement is insane.

Musicians have mostly always be broke - and I don't see this changing anytime soon.

So many of our arguments PRESUME musicians somehow DESERVE income.

And again - the REASON this supposition is SILLY - is because it's almost NEVER been true in our history.

EVEN when music was supposedly MORE VALUABLE (in our fabulously inaccurate 20/20 hindsight).

So where did this fantasy about musicians being entitled to earn a living come from?

I submit to you that it was almost ENTIRELY fabricated by a few hippies smoking pot in their dorm room, before they were evicted from school. And they were probably philosophy majors - not even musicians.

Anyway, I wish you all the best, and hope you're able to join the real world sometime in the near future.

Because life is EXPENSIVE and short, and paying for survival by creating music seems like a shoddy plan, to say the least.

I know a FEW of you can and / or will prove me wrong. To you, I say KUDOS! You should indeed celebrate yourselves, because you are among the very few in the club.

Cheers!


.
I still don't understand how people read these threads and think anyone is saying we're "entitled" to make a living.
No, all we are saying is that YOU* aren't entitled to make a living OFF of ME by simply grabbing my things and hawking them on the streets.

*The proverbial 'you', not you personally

The only 'entitlement' i see is people thinking they are 'entitled' to take whatever they want, whenever they want--regardless if that thing is being offered to them or not.
Old 7th September 2012
  #338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqye View Post
.
All this entitlement is insane.
you are confused. there is no entitlement. no one expects to make a living just because they play guitar or record music.

they expect to be paid when their work is consumed.

the larger issue is, other people, other than the artists and creators actually ARE getting paid, and they're making millions individually and billions collectively.

very simply put, it's not entitlement to be paid for your work instead of (or along with) those exploiting your work for their own personal and/or corporate wealth.

here ya go...

Artists, Know Thy Enemy – Who’s Ripping You Off and How… | The Trichordist

Hey Tom Waits! Who’s That Bandido Ripping You Off Now? … Wendy’s, Yahoo, BMW, Mitt Romney, Adobe, Cadillac, LG, Target, Westin Hotels, Priceline, Hyatt Hotels, Weight Watchers, VISA, State Farm, Mini Cooper, ADT Security… | Th

Principles for an Ethical and Sustainable Internet | The Trichordist

this makes sense to me...

Quote:
FAIR AND ETHICAL LABOR PRACTICES: RESPECT WORKERS’ RIGHTS
- A fair and ethical internet is built on the respect and protection of the rights of individuals to determine who benefits from their labor and creations.

CONSENT IS THE FOUNDATION OF CIVILIZATION: RESPECT ARTISTS’ INTEGRITY
- Your right to swing your fist stops at the end of my nose. Your rights end where mine begin.

PROTECT INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION: DON’T TRIVIALIZE CENSORSHIP
- Freedom of speech requires freedom of expression. Copyright protects free expression. Together, they ensure a robust marketplace of ideas that advances truth, knowledge, and culture.

FAIR COMPENSATION: IF YOU DON’T LIKE IT, DON’T BUY IT
- In any value chain where the individual creator’s work is exploited, the creator must be compensated.

MUTUAL RESPECT: IT’S ABOUT GETTING IT RIGHT, NOT GETTING AWAY WITH IT
- Mutual respect for the diversity of all online citizens is the cornerstone of a healthy and robust community.

PARASITIC EXPLOITATION IS NOT INNOVATION: FREE AND OPEN SHOULD BE FAIR AND HONEST
- The illegal exploitation of individuals for commercial gain is not innovation, it is techno-thuggery and cyberbullying.

SUSTAINABLE INNOVATION SOLVES PROBLEMS: FAIR NOT FAKE
- Sustainable innovation is best represented by solving problems, not creating them by adding intentional opaque layers of obfuscation.

COMMON GOALS, BEST PRACTICES AND SOLUTIONS:
- There are centuries of mutual ground between creators, commerce and rights holders. Let’s not throw this away.
Old 7th September 2012
  #339
Quote:
Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh View Post
I still don't understand how people read these threads and think anyone is saying we're "entitled" to make a living.
No, all we are saying is that YOU* aren't entitled to make a living OFF of ME by simply grabbing my things and hawking them on the streets.

*The proverbial 'you', not you personally

The only 'entitlement' i see is people thinking they are 'entitled' to take whatever they want, whenever they want--regardless if that thing is being offered to them or not.
Old 7th September 2012
  #340
Gear Addict
 

"Entitlement" for expecting to get paid for your work? Man, that sounds like Gina Rinehart.
Old 7th September 2012
  #341
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joeycutless's Avatar
 

It's youtube's fault, YT is completely overlooked as the main culprit of providing free streaming and downloads (with simple tools)

Secondly p2p sites

Then Itunes has basically made the album nearly extinct, however I'm on the fence if whether or not Itunes actually helped or hurt the music industry
Old 7th September 2012
  #342
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cause the music sucks and the entire top 40 subculture is based around a revolving single chord progression, also the fact that we can buy music as individual tracks instead of albums we realise how much of an album is fluff that we don't want to spend money on. then there is the economy and the fact its Obama's fault.
Old 7th September 2012
  #343
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Huh?
That really makes no sense.
I want to drive a Porsche, but don't want to pay $100,000. So what do I do next in your opinion?
You download cracked Gran Tourismo.Its the same with music.You get a lower quality free substitute when you use youtube for listening music or you download crappy 128 mp3s!
Old 7th September 2012
  #344
Quote:
Originally Posted by doulos30 View Post
cause the music sucks and the entire top 40 subculture is based around a revolving single chord progression, also the fact that we can buy music as individual tracks instead of albums we realise how much of an album is fluff that we don't want to spend money on. then there is the economy and the fact its Obama's fault.
right, people are stealing the beatles, nine inch nails, jane's addiction, miles davis, etta james, kings of leon, mumford and sons, edele, pink floyd, led zeppelin, etc... because it all sucks...
Old 7th September 2012
  #345
Gear Addict
 

You know what? Youtube despite it being easy to rip the music off has translated into me buying CDs and finding new bands to pimp to my fiends.
It is kind of like tape trading meets music TV. It can be a good promotion tool, sure there is no guarantee of this translating to sales but then this is also true for all forms of promotion.
How many of you have found out about a band/artist/composer on youtube and ended up buying at least one of their pieces of music or gone to their gigs?
Old 7th September 2012
  #346
Quote:
Originally Posted by deathromantik View Post
You know what? Youtube despite it being easy to rip the music off has translated into me buying CDs and finding new bands to pimp to my fiends.
It is kind of like tape trading meets music TV. It can be a good promotion tool, sure there is no guarantee of this translating to sales but then this is also true for all forms of promotion.
How many of you have found out about a band/artist/composer on youtube and ended up buying at least one of their pieces of music or gone to their gigs?
youtube can be a great tool when operating legally.

when operating illegally however, that's where the problems are.
Old 7th September 2012
  #347
Gear Addict
 

It isn't really black and white though. People rip and upload songs to spread the word about their favourite bands both active and inactive. Most of these songs are not the singles or don't have videos.

I have found so many artists this way, the sound quality isn't that great and I don't always have internet so I buy the CD.
It would be highly unlikely that I am the only person who does this.
But then I am someone who wants to make a living in music, I want people to buy music too.
Old 7th September 2012
  #348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqye View Post
.

All this entitlement is insane.



.
I'm entitled to place a fee on my work. I'm entitled to be paid when someone takes advantage of my work.
That's it. It's simple.
(So sick of this inane 'entitled' angle constantly being thrown at ordinary musicians)
Old 7th September 2012
  #349
Gear Addict
 

I'm pretty sure it's only the scarecrows that are making the argument that illegal downloads are ok, and that advertisers have a right to use people's intellectual property without paying for it. Rack gear likes using any thread about the music industry to raise his blog's google rank, so that always drives these threads off the rails.
Old 7th September 2012
  #350
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I'm entitled to place a fee on my work. I'm entitled to be paid when someone takes advantage of my work.
That's it. It's simple.
(So sick of this inane 'entitled' angle constantly being thrown at ordinary musicians)
.

Yes, but you're not entitled to success in the music industry.

Just like the other 99% of all musicians.

You can't compete with free.

And in much of the real world, music has very little monetary value to most consumers.

If you've found a niche of consumers willing to buy your product, support your projects, brand, etc....congratulations.

I do agree with your basic premise, but it's like saying poets, dancers, writers, actors, etc. should be paid for what they create.

Or that water should be paid for emerging from the earth, or the sun paid for shining.

Of course, it's a nice fantasy.

But unfortunately, not reality for most. And never has been.

You can live in fantasy (like the music business section at Gearslutz), or you can live in reality - your choice.

I have a feeling one will bring you more personal peace, but everyone's different.

I know it's very difficult for professionals, and ex-professionals.

All the best, man.


.
Old 7th September 2012
  #351
Gear Nut
 

Success comes in different levels - while I have been successful, I have never seen monetary compensation as the barometer for my success. I do expect compensation of some sort though.

Cliché - Nothing worth having is easy.

I agree - creation does not equal demand for your art. But if it is put up for sale, it doesn't mean that you should steal it.

As far as the business side goes - whether you believe certain music or musicians has value is of no consequence - when you steal, you are not just stealing from an artist. You are stealing from everyone in the chain and robbing them of their livelihood. Studio personnel, marketing people, PR, the list goes on and on. I'm not talking major label either.

BTW - You do pay for water and right now, the sun is free.
Old 7th September 2012
  #352
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relaxo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqye View Post
.

Yes, but you're not entitled to success in the music industry.
Sqye, this concept is not registering with you and many others in the slightest. Now try to follow. I am not a lawyer, so don't pick apart my terms, etc. My concepts are correct however.

••••••••••

In no way, shape or form is Chrisso saying artists are entitled to success.

Again, it's soooo simple. We agree. The public does not have to give any artist ANY MONEY AT ALL...nada...never ever ever. ZERO...EVER. All artists are owed no money from anyone. EVER EVER EVER EVER. And artists are A-OK with this.

Unless, of course, the public CHOOSES to possess and/or use the artist's "for pay only" work. Then that person or company owes the artist WHATEVER PRICE he has put on it. If you have a song on your device that the artist CHOOSES to put a price tag of $2000 for one song, you are breaking the law if you possess that song without paying the full $2000.

In long established modern, western law, the maker of a product has the right to determine the price of ownership, transferability permissions, usage, etc and has the right to seek a legal remedy if his rights get violated.

So yes, you're 100% correct. The public has the right not to have to spend any money on anything...if they don't touch it. If you don't want to give an artist any money, you don't have to at all, just don't touch his work, that's all that is REQUIRED by law.
Old 7th September 2012
  #353
Gear Addict
 

But is anyone saying it's ok for people to steal the music? I don't see that argument being made. They're acknowledging that it happens, and expanding on additional reasons why the market got smaller. Does piracy impact the music business? Probably. Is that impact overstated by much of the music business (and several in this thread)? Probably.

The impact is probably somewhere between "no impact" and "zOMG kids have killed the music business", and even if there was no illegal downloading the sales figures probably wouldn't return to the peak.
Old 7th September 2012
  #354
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relaxo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqye View Post
You can't compete with free.
Most of the music the public wants to possess is not free, it's stolen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqye View Post
And in much of the real world, music has very little monetary value to most consumers.
If people had to buy music they would pay for it. Case in point:

What if the existing law was actually enforced and the ONLY way to get the songs that make the public feel good was from buying them? Then they would have to pay for the music that benefits their life. GASP! Would music still have no value in this case? If you say yes, then people would flat out not be able to play all their favorite music at will. Do you think they would start paying again or stop listening to their loved music at will? They 100% will start paying again. See how off-base your statement truly is? Music is invaluable in our life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqye View Post
You can live in fantasy (like the music business section at Gearslutz), or you can live in reality - your choice.

I have a feeling one will bring you more personal peace, but everyone's different.
Freesters can continue to live in utter cluelessness or you can begin for the first time, to grow up. I have a feeling that if you start thinking rationally for the first time, it will remove a little peace from your lives.
Old 7th September 2012
  #355
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relaxo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by grawk View Post
But is anyone saying it's ok for people to steal the music?
That's not the line of discussion Sqye started. His post was about artists feeling entitled. People rarely say it's ok to steal music, they just do it in the locked door privacy of their own homes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grawk View Post
Does piracy impact the music business? Probably. Is that impact overstated by much of the music business (and several in this thread)? Probably.
So many of the freester arguments in here are always full of words like maybe and probably.
Old 7th September 2012
  #356
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by relaxo View Post
That's not the line of discussion Sqye started. His post was about artists feeling entitled. People rarely say it's ok to steal music, they just do it in the locked door privacy of their own homes.



So many of the freester arguments in here are always full of words like maybe and probably.
I am not pro stealing music. To my knowledge there is no way to test the proposition, so it's being intellectually honest to use such words.
Old 7th September 2012
  #357
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by relaxo View Post
Most of the music the public wants to possess is not free, it's stolen.



If people had to buy music they would pay for it. Case in point:

What if the existing law was actually enforced and the ONLY way to get the songs that make the public feel good was from buying them? Then they would have to pay for the music that benefits their life. GASP! Would music still have no value in this case? If you say yes, then people would flat out not be able to play all their favorite music at will. Do you think they would start paying again or stop listening to their loved music at will? They 100% will start paying again. See how off-base your statement truly is? Music is invaluable in our life.



Freesters can continue to live in utter cluelessness or you can begin for the first time, to grow up. I have a feeling that if you start thinking rationally for the first time, it will remove a little peace from your lives.
Or they'd listen to the radio and continue to spend at the level they spend. Music sales aren't at zero, they're just more in line with the 80s than late 90s. In the middle of a recession.

As to saying people who disagree with you are clueless or irrational, whatever helps you sleep at night.
Old 7th September 2012
  #358
Gear Addict
 

[QUOTE=relaxo;8239027]Most of the music the public wants to possess is illegally free.



If people had to buy music they would pay for it. Case in point:

What if the existing law was actually enforced and the ONLY way to get the songs that make the public feel good was from buying them? Then they would have to pay for the music that benefits their life. GASP! Would music still have no value in this case? If you say yes, then people would flat out not be able to play all their favorite music at will. Do you think they would start paying again or stop listening to their loved music at will? They 1000% will start paying again. See how off-base your statement truly is? Music is invaluable in our life.
/QUOTE]

There is one problem with that, the places to legally buy music are closing down as it is or they have an extremely small selection.
You and I both live in the arts centres of our respective countries; in that we are lucky because there are still good record stores around.

But if you live in a small town and don't have credit card where can you buy music from? Kmart, Target, that chain in the mall that used to sell CDs but now mostly sells DVDs? If you can't get it legally then how else will you get it?

Music is invaluable for people like us, but a lot of people don't really care about it or know much about it.
Old 7th September 2012
  #359
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relaxo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deathromantik View Post
Music is invaluable for people like us, but a lot of people don't really care about it or know much about it.
That's perfectly ok if they don't care about it. Just don't put the stolen music on their devices or commercials, that's all. It's so very simple.

As to how to buy music outside of large metropolitan art centers? The internet, one click.
Old 7th September 2012
  #360
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relaxo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by grawk View Post
As to saying people who disagree with you are clueless or irrational, whatever helps you sleep at night.
Yes, I am very opinionated as well, and I like when people disagree with me...it's much more fun and interesting. That's when you're dealing with subjective issues and I won't call people clueless or irrational.

But when people are even getting black and white given facts wrong or completely misunderstanding a very very simplistic line of thought, that is either 1) cluelessness or 2) irrationality.

Again, case in point:
Chrisso says:
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I'm entitled to place a fee on my work. I'm entitled to be paid when someone takes advantage of my work.
That's it. It's simple.
A truly simple and straightforward concept. But then Sqye directly responds to that with:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqye View Post
"I do agree with your basic premise, but it's like saying poets, dancers, writers, actors, etc. should be paid for what they create. Or that water should be paid for emerging from the earth, or the sun paid for shining. Of course, it's a nice fantasy. But unfortunately, not reality for most. And never has been."
It appears clear to me that Sqye, like many others, is simply not following the plot, lost in a completely different line of thought. Or am I crazy? Please, show me if I am and I will disappear.
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