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To put my music out on the internet or not....
Old 21st August 2012
  #31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Susceptor View Post
Thing of the past. The business model is changing, there are new methods appearing and only the big labels are holding this thing back from happening.
Like I said, if you want a career in music, the big labels are the way to go. Sure, you can put yourself out on iTunes on your own, but the more it sells their, the more Apple will take a cut. It's just the nature of doing business.
Unfortunately in this world, people with the big money are the people with power and influence. Some of those people are good people, some of them are not so good.
Old 21st August 2012
  #32
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aligak's Avatar
Thanks everyone for your input. Very helpful info and glad people here don't derail topics. However, there's been a lot of focus on major labels and going "big time". I'm not really interested in that route. I enjoy my simple stress-free life as a teacher living in different countries. Maybe at some point I might want to DJ during my free time some places for some money (and fun), but I'm not really a "play to the crowd" kinda guy. Plus, I don't really know how to DJ (although some of the highest paid ones don't really do much).

What I'd really want is just to have my music heard at some underground clubs and my tracks sought after by some DJs i respect or other producers. Ideal scenario: i hear that one of my harder tracks was played at Berghain (Berlin) or Womb (Tokyo). Haha! From what I gather so far, it seems the best way for me to get my music heard is to just send DJs I like links to my tracks in SoundCloud and allow them to download for free if interested. It doesn't seem BandCamp would be good for me since I'm looking for exposure / recognition more than sales.

It's very difficult making money in non-mainstream electronic music. I heard one of my favorite labels (Dial) almost folded 6 years ago, but the album by Pantha du Prince saved it. So even if a very well established and respected label in underground house doesn't make all that much money. I'm sure the producers on such labels make more from DJ'ing or maybe they also have another job to pay the bills.

Another thing I can possibly look into is pressing 3 or 4 of my tracks onto vinyl. Any recommendations as far as small batch pressing and distribution?
Old 21st August 2012
  #33
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The thing is, the music industry now is like the soviet union in it's last days; everyone knows things are not working, those in leadership are in denial, and the people powerful enough to effect change don't. The result is that record labels don't seem to invest and promote new talent much anymore, leaving the talent to promote itself, at least in the beginning.

This has resulted in bands (truthfully, mostly artists) gaining their first national attention from viral videos, internet shock value, and even song placement in the right video game. Hey, I discovered artists I never knew from the soundtracks of old Tony Hawk games growing up; I'm sure some of those artists shed blood to get that placement, and am sure it seriously boosted their notoriety.

Your music can be great, but few will care if they don't know who you are; without the notoriety, few are willing to listen. It's the same thing whether you're an actor, performance artist, or politician; if i don't know about you, why should I care about you or what you're about? Find a way to get out there, ANY way, and people may start to finally hear you. Otherwise you're not likely to be heard at all, in the clubs or anywhere else.
Old 21st August 2012
  #34
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I wouldn't press anything to vinyl.

I'd hit up the labels/artists doing your style, and kick them over tracks for feedback.

I'd also try to find a forum specifically for what you do, and start sharing your music there and getting involved with other people who are doing the same thing. Most small scenes have an online home.
Old 21st August 2012
  #35
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Susceptor's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BM0 View Post
Like I said, if you want a career in music, the big labels are the way to go. Sure, you can put yourself out on iTunes on your own, but the more it sells their, the more Apple will take a cut. It's just the nature of doing business.
Unfortunately in this world, people with the big money are the people with power and influence. Some of those people are good people, some of them are not so good.
I insist that it's just the greedy money hungry dinosaurs (aka the big labels) who want to maintain the myth that you need to be signed to them if you want a career. But YMMV.
Old 21st August 2012
  #36
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Audio1's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Susceptor View Post
I insist that it's just the greedy money hungry dinosaurs (aka the big labels) who want to maintain the myth that you need to be signed to them if you want a career. But YMMV.
Career and well paid are not the same thing.
Old 22nd August 2012
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Susceptor View Post
I insist that it's just the greedy money hungry dinosaurs (aka the big labels) who want to maintain the myth that you need to be signed to them if you want a career. But YMMV.
Thanks for the input, but in the interest of staying closer to the intended topic, I want to re-emphasize that I'm not looking at big labels or big money. I make niche music for a niche audience.
Old 22nd August 2012
  #38
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modularjack's Avatar
 

Oh god you guys are talking about wordlwide digital distribution networks in the same thread you claim record labels aren't adapting... Seriously? They are big companies so they move slow but yeah, they are all over the internet bandwagon and have been for years now. Hell I know a few artists who make more money selling adsense on their youtube channels than their album sales. Protip: Start thinking outside the box.
Old 22nd August 2012
  #39
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Stay on target
Old 22nd August 2012
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio1 View Post
The chances of that helping you get played in clubs is somewhere between zero and nothing.

Really? And what's your credentials?

(Whole lot of advice from... Some dude in his undies surrounded by 50 cats? Some 12-year old with internet access? Skrillex?)

Some of this advice may be great, may suck... hard to tell, what's the context of who's giving it?

-Andrews
Old 22nd August 2012
  #41
tun
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Basically just echoing what others have already said.
If your music is aimed at a niche market you must get involved with the movers and shakers within that niche, the bloggers, label owners, club/party promoters and most importantly the DJ's who play that kind of music. Your global location is irrelevant. I'd suggest you start following these guys, whether by means of their FB group, Soundcloud or whatever. Also find the forum(s) where the DJ's and music lovers hang out that are into your niche.
Go easy at first, you don't want to get off on the wrong foot, but once you've established contact share a couple of your best tracks with DJ's you think would play them.
You'll find some DJ's are really helpful and supportive of new music, they'll even forward it on or give you contact details of other DJ's and labels, on the other hand some have their heads completely up their asses... it's trial and error to some extent. Good luck!
Old 22nd August 2012
  #42
Quote:
Originally Posted by aligak View Post
Is it true that if I put my music out on SoundCloud, BandCamp, and other places such as iTunes through a digital distributor such as Label Worx, that my tracks or albums no longer have much of a chance of being picked up by any electronic music labels? I remember back when I used to buy records and CDs that an artist would release on their own label or a "white sleeve" and then if it was well received, it would be taken up by a real label. I have roughly 30 tracks professionally mastered, and now wondering if I should just spam labels with my mp3 uploads of my tracks or put them all up on my own SoundCloud and BandCamp sites and hope some label likes it enough to want to sign me up. Does this even happen anymore?

I honestly DON'T care at all about making money. I have a regular job full-time job (not that it pays so well, but it helps me live comfortably enough). I just want to get my music out there and heard or played for enough people. I've worked too hard for too long for my music to be locked up inside my computer.

P.S. - The thread title should read "To put my music out or not...."
Soundcloud is good for connectivity. But labels don't seem to really pick people up unless you are already fairly recognised... or perhaps they might just stumble on you. Sending mp3s to labels mostly doesn't work, they get sent so much stuff that they are just not interested. It doesn't hurt to give it a go though of course! I've had a few replies but the labels had a backlog of music that was waiting to be released. Recognition helps, get soundcloud and try and build a following, get your stuff sent to blogs as well, that helps a lot.
I'm in the same boat man!
Regards.
Old 22nd August 2012
  #43
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Blitenz's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by aligak View Post
Is it true that if I put my music out on SoundCloud, BandCamp, and other places such as iTunes through a digital distributor such as Label Worx, that my tracks or albums no longer have much of a chance of being picked up by any electronic music labels? I remember back when I used to buy records and CDs that an artist would release on their own label or a "white sleeve" and then if it was well received, it would be taken up by a real label. I have roughly 30 tracks professionally mastered, and now wondering if I should just spam labels with my mp3 uploads of my tracks or put them all up on my own SoundCloud and BandCamp sites and hope some label likes it enough to want to sign me up. Does this even happen anymore?

short answer yes its true
Old 22nd August 2012
  #44
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by aligak View Post
Another thing I can possibly look into is pressing 3 or 4 of my tracks onto vinyl. Any recommendations as far as small batch pressing and distribution?
Don't have direct info, but I think that is actually a good idea. In the genres you seem to make, vinyl still is important and much more valued. If something is pressed on vinyl it will have a higher chance of getting noticed then if it's just being sent as a mail with a download link.

However, the basic problem of networking will still persist. You still need to get this vinyl in the right hands. Doesn't have to be a label but somewhat small or middle of the road djs that either have contacts to labels (so your next ep can be released on a known label) or that generate interest in your music/label by playing it.

In the end, you never get around networking at least to a certain degree, there is just way too much electronic music out there (of any kind, weirder stuff as well).

Try to contact djs via facebook or soundcloud. The smaller they are, the better the chance that the will respond. Or try to get in contact at dj gigs, maybe even invite them to your own party. I understand that you don't what to do it, but networking is part of music on any level, from mainstream to the deepest underground, and the more energy you put into it, the more likely it is that your tracks will get noticed.
Old 22nd August 2012
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delusi View Post
Soundcloud is good for connectivity. But labels don't seem to really pick people up unless you are already fairly recognised... or perhaps they might just stumble on you. Sending mp3s to labels mostly doesn't work, they get sent so much stuff that they are just not interested. It doesn't hurt to give it a go though of course! I've had a few replies but the labels had a backlog of music that was waiting to be released. Recognition helps, get soundcloud and try and build a following, get your stuff sent to blogs as well, that helps a lot.
I'm in the same boat man!
Regards.
So in my case, is BandCamp a waste of time?
Old 22nd August 2012
  #46
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I think not, quite the contrary, it's a good start. (but remember to promote yourself in the mean time, don't expect a bandcamp account to do wonders)
Old 22nd August 2012
  #47
thread moved, title changed.
Old 22nd August 2012
  #48
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From my personal experience, SoundCloud is a great way to get your stuff "out there" and heard by people. Make a big list of record labels who release similar music to your own and email them links to some of your tunes - if your music is good enough, then some labels will eventually respond positively. This is what I did and so far it's worked very well

Also try talking to DJs and people at club nights and bring up the topic of your music so you can send some demos. A friend of mine did this with very worthwhile results.

Patience and perseverence is the key. Good luck .
Old 22nd August 2012
  #49
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Individual internet marketing is, IMO, a waste of time. The existence of the internet has not changed how the word gets spread, i.e. investing money and know-how into advertising, marketing and promo. It's just a new avenue.

The illusion of democratization of exposure through the internet is a ruse. Stuff that explodes from the internet almost always has a multi-faceted, expensive marketing campaign working on a variety of media fronts and pseudo "grass-roots" campaigns, such as boiler rooms where the net is blasted with an assault of phony "you gotta hear this new cool artist," BS from 1000 different angles.

If you have true gems, quietly get them to the people who have the clout to spread the news and make you legit. The guy who said free music on the internet is a flyer on a windshield is dead on. If you are "lucky" enough to go viral with a song, then it's out and over. Tomorrow it will be yesterday's virus, like that video of the guy eating the hamburger that everyone was watching two days ago.

Putting your own stuff on the net is exactly like an author paying a vanity publisher to manufacture a book. It cheapens the manuscript's value, cheapens the author's value, makes it less desirable to legit publishers and temporarily bolsters the authors ego while accomplishing nothing substantial except to squarely plant you in the company of hundreds of thousands of scramblers who have no other recourse.
Old 22nd August 2012
  #50
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aligak's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
Individual internet marketing is, IMO, a waste of time. The existence of the internet has not changed how the word gets spread, i.e. investing money and know-how into advertising, marketing and promo. It's just a new avenue.

The illusion of democratization of exposure through the internet is a ruse. Stuff that explodes from the internet almost always has a multi-faceted, expensive marketing campaign working on a variety of media fronts and pseudo "grass-roots" campaigns, such as boiler rooms where the net is blasted with an assault of phony "you gotta hear this new cool artist," BS from 1000 different angles.

If you have true gems, quietly get them to the people who have the clout to spread the news and make you legit. The guy who said free music on the internet is a flyer on a windshield is dead on. If you are "lucky" enough to go viral with a song, then it's out and over. Tomorrow it will be yesterday's virus, like that video of the guy eating the hamburger that everyone was watching two days ago.

Putting your own stuff on the net is exactly like an author paying a vanity publisher to manufacture a book. It cheapens the manuscript's value, cheapens the author's value, makes it less desirable to legit publishers and temporarily bolsters the authors ego while accomplishing nothing substantial except to squarely plant you in the company of hundreds of thousands of scramblers who have no other recourse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c
Old 22nd August 2012
  #51
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Cool clip! Haha! How's it working for you?
Old 22nd August 2012
  #52
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aligak's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
Individual internet marketing is, IMO, a waste of time. The existence of the internet has not changed how the word gets spread, i.e. investing money and know-how into advertising, marketing and promo. It's just a new avenue.

The illusion of democratization of exposure through the internet is a ruse. Stuff that explodes from the internet almost always has a multi-faceted, expensive marketing campaign working on a variety of media fronts and pseudo "grass-roots" campaigns, such as boiler rooms where the net is blasted with an assault of phony "you gotta hear this new cool artist," BS from 1000 different angles.

..…....

Putting your own stuff on the net is exactly like an author paying a vanity publisher to manufacture a book. It cheapens the manuscript's value, cheapens the author's value, makes it less desirable to legit publishers and temporarily bolsters the authors ego while accomplishing nothing substantial except to squarely plant you in the company of hundreds of thousands of scramblers who have no other recourse.
Your opinion is the most pessimistic so far on this thread. I've gotten some good advice here, but also feel some people are not reading most of the thread before replying. So I must emphasize again that many people like myself are NOT looking for our work to "explode" online or elsewhere.

Here's a great article by an artist I respect: James Kirby
Old 22nd August 2012
  #53
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Audio1's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Halo View Post
Really? And what's your credentials?

(Whole lot of advice from... Some dude in his undies surrounded by 50 cats? Some 12-year old with internet access? Skrillex?)

Some of this advice may be great, may suck... hard to tell, what's the context of who's giving it?

-Andrews
About 15 years experience. Starting DJ'ing what now would be called Oldskool or Rave when I was 18. Played on the same line ups as Jeff Mills, Dave Clarke, Neil Landstrumm, Surgeon, Krafty Kuts, CTRL-Z, Breakfastaz, Rusko, Stanton Warriors, Freq Nasty, Christian Vogel, Tobias Smichdt, Rennie Pilgrem to name a few. Then on to co-promoting. I've been producing for about 4 years now. I'm not anyone special, but when it comes to this area, I know what I'm talking about.

Would you like me to attach a CV?

You made an Album about 10 years ago? Rock? if I'm not mistaken? So how that applies to the world of DJ'ing, I'm not so sure. Maybe your point is valid, I think anyone with any actual experience would know who's advice was legit, this doesn't help the guy who started the thread though.
Old 22nd August 2012
  #54
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Once you put your music on the web its not yours anymore.
The rest is hype and money,but there is also unique talent out there I'll agree that will rise through the cream of the crop to the top.
As for dj'ing live,a small group are making some real money but money makes money and don't think there was not some push by industry icons to make that happen mostly.
Its all a crap shoot to see if your music or better yet your sexuality sticks.
You will need one or the other and maybe both otherwise your cute nursery rhyme with stock rock changes will slide off the wall like just about everything else.
Except for the 1 or 2% ,the music business is not sustainable and takes multiple areas of success to make it all happen.
Don't quit your day job...........
Old 22nd August 2012
  #55
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aligak's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan p View Post
As for dj'ing live,a small group are making some real money but money makes money and don't think there was not some push by industry icons to make that happen mostly.
Its all a crap shoot to see if your music or better yet your sexuality sticks.
You will need one or the other and maybe both otherwise your cute nursery rhyme with stock rock changes will slide off the wall like just about everything else.
Except for the 1 or 2% ,the music business is not sustainable and takes multiple areas of success to make it all happen.
Don't quit your day job...........
I feel like this thread is now coming undone. Let me repeat again - for the 4th time:

- I'm NOT quitting my day job.

- I'm NOT looking to make money in music.

- I'm not looking for my music to explode and become a hit / sensation.

- I just want more people to hear my music - preferably in some underground clubs, by other producers, music enthusiasts (specifically people who like weird techno / house / experimental), college radio stations, Internet stations. Now if I'm lucky to get signed to a decent underground label , and get some decent reviews written up on Wire or Resident Advisor or XLR8R or anywhere basically, i'll be extremely pleased. THAT'S IT. I don't care if I make a dime off of it.
Old 22nd August 2012
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aligak View Post
Your opinion is the most pessimistic so far on this thread. I've gotten some good advice here, but also feel some people are not reading most of the thread before replying. So I must emphasize again that many people like myself are NOT looking for our work to "explode" online or elsewhere.

Here's a great article by an artist I respect: James Kirby
My opinion (much of it is not opinion, BTW) is not at all pessimistic. It's realistic. The internet is so overloaded with artists pitching their creations that it puts the burden of critique and selection on the average web surfer. You, as a consumer, are your own gatekeeper. There are literally millions of work examples that you would have to individually examine to find out what is worth your further attention and what is not (Kirby actually makes this point very well).

This is, of course, impossible to accomplish, so the situation reverts to you gravitating toward information that is being "pushed." You might think you discovered something, but you are paying additional attention to it because someone with clout is pushing it. That's how it's worked since before Ben Franklin's press, and the internet has not changed that.

You don't seriously think that the power gatekeepers (there are many, some names you know, some you don't) would allow the internet to just randomly flow over the masses, do you? Click on a site and there it is. WOW! Clicked on another site and there it is again, and again, and again. This does not happen by chance. It must be good because it's everywhere, right? That exposure is purchased by power structures who control the flow of information and determine exactly what you will be paying attention to tomorrow and the day after.

There is, of course, a huge, random sector of the net that is not manipulated by power gatekeepers, but the masses never get exposed to that sector because of it's diversity, size and content. You create your own compartmentalized bubble of influence within this sector, and 50 or 100 people pay attention, if you're lucky. It's almost impossible to bust out of that low-level gigantic cluster F of data to a larger audience, partly because of its inherent characteristics, and partly because access to the upper level sectors is limited by how much marketing money and know-how you can invest.

The concept of legitimacy that accompanies the "grass roots" rising star is well understood and effectively manipulated by the power gatekeepers. For some demographics, it's vital to make a rising star appear to have emerged from an organic, ground swell of awareness driven by serendipitous public interest. But other demographics (younger audiences) will welcome instant celebrities that appear from nowhere. You know the names.

Actually, my post is optimistic, because it points up the fact that the internet has not significantly changed the way artists "make it big." It's another tool used by the people who can deliver that legitimacy to you, if you have the music, personality, swag and prolific sustain that inspires them to back the product that you are. When they turn their machine on you, the internet will be your best friend, because suddenly you won't be jumping for joy over a few hundred mouse clicks. You'll be looking at 10 million clicks on your name, and it won't be viral celebrity that disappears overnight.

It's the difference between believing the internet democracy myth, and breaking through the membrane that separates legitimacy from the rabble masses of artists throwing flyers into a random wind that is already pushing 10 million other flyers around the open field.

“Those who go that route still connect with it, and may in the future feel moved enough to support my work financially. As long as people listen, either legally or illegally, as creative people we are winning.”
James Kirby


Is this what you want? Cool. Get busy posting. A few people will download and send you nice notes about how cool you are. That’s all you will ever get back for your creative work, the time you invested, the originality that is you alone, etc… if this is what you want, no problem. Post.

If you ever want more than this, you won’t get it from posting. A lot of my productions for a particular artist are currently posted on the net for sale, and the artist made OK money for a while. Articles were published. Positive blog critiques. Whole song collections were legally downloaded. Then, illegal downloads and streaming bit hard, but they also spread the music further. Unfortunately, never much further, because that’s impossible without The Push. As things fell apart financially, the whole project fell apart artistically, because, like it or not, being compensated for your effort is the steam that drives the machine forward. Easy to say you don’t want compensation, but the reality is usually different after the game gets going and it turns into something that more closely resembles work. And when a larger public is happily consuming your hard-earned product, and you’re expected to continue producing it without compensation beyond the occasional "you're a cool dude" PM.

But, you say you don’t want big success. Only a little success. Then the internet is for you, and it will take you where you want to go. I wish anyone only the best in their endeavors.

Apologies for the filibuster. I probably could have edited it down.
Old 22nd August 2012
  #57
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Quote:
I don't care if I make a dime off of it.
I think you answered your own question ! If you don't car about the money and only care about the exposure, I can't see anything that would stop you to put your music online. In the worst case, your music goes viral and everyone will download it for free...
Old 22nd August 2012
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ran_ks View Post
I think you answered your own question ! If you don't car about the money and only care about the exposure, I can't see anything that would stop you to put your music online. In the worst case, your music goes viral and everyone will download it for free...
True, but I'm wondering if something like Bandcamp is a waste of time. I still want to be selective where I put my music out. Bandcamp may be less for exposure like Soundcloud, and more for selling. I could be wrong. I do love the simple interface of Bandcamp.
Old 22nd August 2012
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aligak View Post
True, but I'm wondering if something like Bandcamp is a waste of time. I still want to be selective where I put my music out. Bandcamp may be less for exposure like Soundcloud, and more for selling. I could be wrong. I do love the simple interface of Bandname.
For what you are doing Soundcloud may be better.
Good Luck!
Old 22nd August 2012
  #60
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Alas, now just to get heard is a big victory in music releases so you have a better chance to get heard with corresponding PR victories if you release music online. Hiding it will not help you.

PS: If you are really productive, just do good mixes of 'unreleased' material and release it using various acronyms. Music should be heard.
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